On 01/04/2022 18:35 Turby penned these words:
> But it's illegal here to go off grid. No matter how efficient you are,
> you have to stay connected and pay a fee to the private power company.
> aaargh.

Commie

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 19:58:58 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:

> On 01/04/2022 16:19, Alan wrote:

>> There are loads of sites out there explaining all the pros/cons of both
>> solar and battery back up, and the related insulation savings, I've not
>> found a single one that goes through it all, some are just written for
>> idiots,
>
> Oh, good. Can you point me at them please? :-)

Will it be worthwhile:
<https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/tool/solar-energy-calculator/>

A seller, but it gives an idea of pricing. I would suggest shopping
around a lot, those prices seem a little high to me.
<https://first4solar.co.uk/pv-and-battery/>

Written for the less technically minded:
<https://solartogether.co.uk/blog/solar-battery-storage-is-it-worth-it#>

Probably the best initial resource is the energy saving trust, another of
their pages:
<https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/home-energy-storage-right-me/>

On 01/04/2022 19:07, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 18:36, Spike wrote:
>> On 01/04/2022 16:51, Pipl wrote:
>>> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
>>> wrote:

>>>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>>>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.

>>> solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
>>> Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
>>> seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
>>> lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.

>>> I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.

>> This is a very thoughtful article:

>> <https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/367-the-reality-of-relying-upon-renewable-power>

>> TL:DR:

>> A professor has been running a broadband remote-community broadband
>> relay for the last seven years from renewables. He explains the
>> difficulties of keeping the system functioning with a non-availability
>> as low as ten times that of the National Grid.

> Erm,
> a) I've met him.
> b) I've worked on the kit :-)
> https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/r692MH6dnckExsX
> https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/JHLQYqrYLZaWNZT

Nice kit; lovely location.

> Lugging a spare windmill up the hills in the Boarders is knackering

I'll bet.

> Cameras have now been fitted so they can see in advance what the issues
> are before going up the hills.

That's a good idea.

> The broadband system works bloody well out in the sticks

The article shows that the modest demand of 50W is quite hard to supply
from renewables due to its inherent intermittent nature, when there's no
other source around.

Well worth doing the sums before stumping up the £££.

--
Spike

On 02/04/2022 01:34, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 15:39, YTC#1 wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 01/04/2022 13:01, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>>> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
>>>> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.
>>>
>>> Common misconception.  It isn't the case that solar produces zero
>>> energy when the sun doesn't shine.  It does in fact produce energy in
>>> daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.
>>>
>>> I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with
>>> architectural "features" (that I don't like).  So I subscribed to a
>>> Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed
>>> it into the grid.  My utility company then credit me for my "share".
>>> The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital
>>> equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the
>>> future where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs.
>>> On the other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a
>>> month-to-month commitment to pay for my portion of power.
>>
>> I doubt there is anything similar in the UK.
>>
>> Community PowerGrid..... hmmm, I wonder if that could be pitched :-)
>
> What I find stupid is sticking solar panels all over land that could be
> used for other purposes when there's lots of roofs that could be pressed

We did use to have a decent "feed in tarif" that meant panels could be
fitted for free, but that was dropped recently.

> into service. I think there must be a financial model that makes sense
> for everyone - how about a nationalised solar power generator that
> provides free installation, allows you to take power for your personal

Sounds way to socialist, bound to get kicked back.

> use for free (with some regulation and a maximum battery capability) and
> all the rest of the power goes into the national grid. Would need some
> more electric mountains for power storage though.

Meanwhile, Iceland are sniggering.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 02/04/2022 08:09, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 19:58:58 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> On 01/04/2022 16:19, Alan wrote:
>
>>> There are loads of sites out there explaining all the pros/cons of both
>>> solar and battery back up, and the related insulation savings, I've not
>>> found a single one that goes through it all, some are just written for
>>> idiots,
>>
>> Oh, good. Can you point me at them please? :-)
>
> Will it be worthwhile:

I must stop using sarcasm here .....

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 02/04/2022 09:20, Spike wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 19:07, YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 01/04/2022 18:36, Spike wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2022 16:51, Pipl wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>>>>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
>>>> solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
>>>> Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
>>>> seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
>>>> lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.
>
>>>> I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.
>
>>> This is a very thoughtful article:
>
>>> <https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/367-the-reality-of-relying-upon-renewable-power>
>
>>> TL:DR:
>
>>> A professor has been running a broadband remote-community broadband
>>> relay for the last seven years from renewables. He explains the
>>> difficulties of keeping the system functioning with a non-availability
>>> as low as ten times that of the National Grid.
>
>> Erm,
>> a) I've met him.
>> b) I've worked on the kit :-)
>> https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/r692MH6dnckExsX
>> https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/JHLQYqrYLZaWNZT
>
> Nice kit; lovely location.
>
>> Lugging a spare windmill up the hills in the Boarders is knackering
>
> I'll bet.
>
>> Cameras have now been fitted so they can see in advance what the issues
>> are before going up the hills.
>
> That's a good idea.
>
>> The broadband system works bloody well out in the sticks
>
> The article shows that the modest demand of 50W is quite hard to supply
> from renewables due to its inherent intermittent nature, when there's no
> other source around.

Hence why each location as a batch of batteries to help level the load out.

Marty [another ex-Sun body], who got involved, and then took over the
management of the systems now has a shed load of sensors to monitor when
loads are failing.

He is also very good at getting the local land owners/farmers onside (in
exchange for very reduced rate internet) so that they can avoid SPOFs to
a large extent.

>
> Well worth doing the sums before stumping up the £££.
>

Agreed, but if I was going for independance that would be a different
matter.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Saturday, 2 April 2022 at 01:34:36 UTC+1, Mike Fleming wrote:
> > Community PowerGrid..... hmmm, I wonder if that could be pitched :-)
> What I find stupid is sticking solar panels all over land that could be
> used for other purposes when there's lots of roofs that could be pressed
> into service. I think there must be a financial model that makes sense
> for everyone - how about a nationalised solar power generator that
> provides free installation, allows you to take power for your personal
> use for free (with some regulation and a maximum battery capability) and
> all the rest of the power goes into the national grid. Would need some
> more electric mountains for power storage though.

A lot of land isn't really suitable for much apart from grazing. Returns
from sheep/dairy aren't that good so I can understand why farmers move away
from a labour intensive, high risk, capital intensive (milk) business to something
that's a lot less stress; given farmers average age is mid-50s expect to see more
of this.

I'm not sure if vast swathes of prime veg land like east-anglia/norfolk/kent
has been solar paneled over in the way that relatively poor grazing land in the SW
has?

We don't really want a lot more lamb and beef/milk for environmental reasons.
Maybe some of the power generated could power heating for greenhouses to
grow unseasonable veg in heated greenhouses?

The nationalised solar generator 'sort of' existed with the FITT approach
where people were paid to generate (even if they self-consumed) and companies
rented roof space giving the occupant free electricity while the company got the
generation payment. That evaporated when the tariff died.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
news:af55ed68-42db-440e-aee1-2eb472ce7786n@googlegroups.com:

> A lot of land isn't really suitable for much apart from grazing.
> Returns from sheep/dairy aren't that good so I can understand why
> farmers move away from a labour intensive, high risk, capital
> intensive (milk) business to something that's a lot less stress; given
> farmers average age is mid-50s expect to see more of this.
>

plus some of the solar arrays I have seen have grass underneath used
for grazing sheep - you won't be cutting a crop of silage but dual
purpose use sounds a sensible approach

seems there is even guidance on the matter including having wild flower
meadows and beekeeping as well as grazing

https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/nsc/Documents%20Library/NSC%20Publications/NSC_-Guid_Agricultural-good-practice-for-SFs_0914.pdf

Bruce Horrocks wrote:

> On 01/04/2022 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> > YTCYTC#1 wrote:
> >
> > > For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to
> > > alternative energy sources.
> > >
> > > 1st thoiught was wind.
> >
> > Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house,
> > do you ever see any of them still around?
>
> Puny is the word. There's a reason that the latest generation
> wind-turbines are taller than the Eiffel Tower.

Indeed, turbine blades over 70m now:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/chris-kuipers-5a05b8117_last-night-the-first-set-blades-for-wp-deil-ugcPost-6600686294706208768-jdXc?fbclid=IwAR1piRNrk0aRttgPT6O4RS8J_vo2f0GlQKv6p9oxjeM0A9T7i1mBXqCti5E

--
Geoff
Honda NTV650

On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 08:20:21 +0000, Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid>
wrote:

>The article shows that the modest demand of 50W is quite hard to supply
>from renewables due to its inherent intermittent nature, when there's no
>other source around.
>
>Well worth doing the sums before stumping up the £££.

For an off-grid system that is clearly an issue. For adding to the
grid - or at least reducing load, still might be worth it, though as
you say, payback periods might be long and government subsidies or
special tariffs can vanish overnight, so that has to be allowed for.

--

-Pip

On 02/04/2022 11:42, wessie wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:af55ed68-42db-440e-aee1-2eb472ce7786n@googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> A lot of land isn't really suitable for much apart from grazing.
>> Returns from sheep/dairy aren't that good so I can understand why
>> farmers move away from a labour intensive, high risk, capital
>> intensive (milk) business to something that's a lot less stress; given
>> farmers average age is mid-50s expect to see more of this.
>>
>
> plus some of the solar arrays I have seen have grass underneath used
> for grazing sheep - you won't be cutting a crop of silage but dual
> purpose use sounds a sensible approach
>
> seems there is even guidance on the matter including having wild flower
> meadows and beekeeping as well as grazing
>
> https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/nsc/Documents%20Library/NSC%20Publications/NSC_-Guid_Agricultural-good-practice-for-SFs_0914.pdf
>
Yes, a friend of mine inherited a small farm and, not being a farmer, it
was a condition of the will that he sold all the animals and kept the
land. A solar farm seemed a good idea - especially as he was also paid
to cut the grass - which he then was also able to sell. The rest he
rents out to horsey people. Its a win, win, win, win, win for him!

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 01/04/2022 10:54, Spike wrote:

>
> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow. Renewables - which include the
> polluting Biomass - provided less that 10% of total demand for those
> weeks. Recent evenings have seen the same. You'll need to factor this in.

Quite so and strategically this is important, at the domestic micro
scale less so in terms of saving money by having a grid connected PV
array with storage.
>
> Averaged over a year, the output from a solar panel is about 12% of
> nominal capacity, and from a wind turbine it's less than 30%.
>
>

Yes and in my case a bit worse at around 8% because my panels are
oriented WSW but on a sunny day from February to November I export a few
kWh and supply all my own needs, even on a grey day like today.

I fall short by a fair margin November to February and I would dearly
love to address this. A Stirling engined alternator looks a good fit but
nothing reasonably priced available.

Stephen Packer wrote:

> battery

What was the cost of that and what type?

--
Simon

On Tuesday, 5 April 2022 at 10:50:10 UTC+1, sweller wrote:
> Stephen Packer wrote:
>
> > battery
>
> What was the cost of that and what type?

The pricing was a lump for the whole system without the battery and associated
gubbins being identified as individual parts; I had a fair understanding of costs to
negotiate a price I felt acceptable. Getting anyone to respond in February wasn't
easy, for some reason they were all busy... Based on other quotes I had and the
research I'd done, I think it came somewhere in the region of 4k installed.

This is what I've got coming:
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/solax/solax-x1-36-ac-triple-bundle

I'm coupling it to a 6kW PV array I'm having put up (or put down to be more exact
, it's ground rather than roof mounted).

Only the 5.8kWh battery version, I might expand it but need to understand:
1) How much it gets charged in the summer
2) If it gets charged in the winter
3) If I can get on an appropriate tariff so I can charge off-peak and consume on-peak
(Octopus do one designed for EV owners, which I am, but before I 'jump' I want to
be sure it's of use)
4) Given all of the above what's the actual benefit?

My back of an envelope calculations suggested it could save me, in winter almost, a
quid a day if I'm buying at 7.5p off peak and 30p peak and in the summer selling at
5p for export vs buying at 30p saving me a little more than a quid a day. So payback
is *maybe* 11 years ignoring cost of money. Battery life should be something *like*
ten years but capacity will drop off. I didn't bother modelling this...

Basically I want to get some experience of the system in operation before I expand the
battery capacity since that only comes in large, expensive (2k ish) lumps (but *might*
reduce the payback time since I'd in principle double the savings for a 50% increase
in 'capital employed').

But it isn't all about money, I think it's the 'right thing to do' and I like the idea of
increasing my independence from 'the grid' (even though the current configuration
wouldn't provide any electricity if there was a network outage).

Future additions might include a seperate 'off grid' solar/wind solution for the
garages (freezer plus power tools, car charging, maybe greenhouse heating) but
that's a 2023 project.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

> But it isn't all about money, I think it's the 'right thing to do' and I like the idea of
> increasing my independence from 'the grid' (even though the current configuration
> wouldn't provide any electricity if there was a network outage).

What is missing from your setup that would allow you to operate
"off grid" just from the battery and/or PV array? I'm not sure
what it could be, since it appears you have to have an inverter
no matter what, if you are going to sell power back to the grid,
so theoretically you already have the bulk of what you need to
operate without a grid connection. Obviously there needs to be
some sort of isolation / transfer switch if you want to power
your dwelling without being connected to the grid.

> Future additions might include a seperate 'off grid' solar/wind solution for the
> garages (freezer plus power tools, car charging, maybe greenhouse heating) but
> that's a 2023 project.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On Tuesday, 5 April 2022 at 21:46:03 UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > But it isn't all about money, I think it's the 'right thing to do' and I like the idea of
> > increasing my independence from 'the grid' (even though the current configuration
> > wouldn't provide any electricity if there was a network outage).
> What is missing from your setup that would allow you to operate
> "off grid" just from the battery and/or PV array? I'm not sure
> what it could be, since it appears you have to have an inverter
> no matter what, if you are going to sell power back to the grid,
> so theoretically you already have the bulk of what you need to
> operate without a grid connection. Obviously there needs to be
> some sort of isolation / transfer switch if you want to power
> your dwelling without being connected to the grid.

Configuration I guess. The inverters are set not to 'deliver AC' if
there's no incoming mains- to avoid frying the bloke working on the line.

This is all based on looking at online manuals/what-not since it's not
yet installed.

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 18:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
<stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

> The inverters are set not to 'deliver AC' if
>there's no incoming mains- to avoid frying the bloke working on the line.
>

Ah; that brings back memories of power cuts and running the house off
a big diesel generator with a double ended 3 pin plug cable to the
ring main....
--
Mark Roberts

Mark Roberts <mark@markr.myzen.co.uk> wrote in
news:nthq4hllc0spoobs325ge6qsjlnn9ftheq@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 18:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The inverters are set not to 'deliver AC' if
>>there's no incoming mains- to avoid frying the bloke working on the
>>line.
>>
>
> Ah; that brings back memories of power cuts and running the house off
> a big diesel generator with a double ended 3 pin plug cable to the
> ring main....

and helping my brother to install the electrics to the marquees at the
inaugral Pontardawe Folk Festival. He was the site electrician, I was 16
and tasked with fitting the lights to the emergency exits. This circuit was
safe apparently, as not directly connected to the mains, just the back up.

Of course, the brother disconnected the mains supply to work on some stuff
but forgot to turn off the emergency generator which did its thing and
fired up, powering up the emergency lighting that I was happily screwing in
those now banned lamps. The type with the 2 prongs that hopefully hit the
conductors as they punctured the insulation. I was quite glad I could reach
the wire from the ground as if I had been on a ladder, falling on my arse
would have hurt more. Plus when standing the current probably went down my
side, whereas on a ladder there is a risk it would go across your chest to
earth via the ladder.

The experience did not put me off working in electrical engineering and
electronics, working on some pretty high voltage stuff on Xerox's higher
end products with their 7kV lamp supplies.

On 01/04/2022 09:53, YTC#1 wrote:
> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
> energy sources.
>
> 1st thoiught was wind. But the regulations seem designed to not be
> acceptable for a large swathe of UK properties.
>
> Form - Legal & Planning permission in England @
> https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/wind-turbines/legal-planning-permission-for-wind-turbines/
>
>
> * For building-mounted turbines, the following criteria must be met:
>
>     The property must be detached
> **** So, that is me out of it. A quick google makes this 25% of properties
>
>
> * For pole-mounted turbines:
>
>     The top of the turbine must be no more than 11.1m above the ground
> **** Fine
>     The turbine must be at least 1.1 times of its own height away from
> the edge of the landowner’s land
>
> **** I don't need a tape measure to work out I can't do that as it would
> need to be higher than the house.
>
>
> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>

I'm quite pleased with my first foray into PV. Just spent 4 days offgrid
in the glampervan, had plenty of lecky, ran out of water at the end of
the last day.

--
/Simon

On 06/04/2022 08:58, Mark Roberts wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 18:09:59 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The inverters are set not to 'deliver AC' if
>> there's no incoming mains- to avoid frying the bloke working on the line.
>>
>
> Ah; that brings back memories of power cuts and running the house off
> a big diesel generator with a double ended 3 pin plug cable to the
> ring main....

Ha, the widowmaker. I used one to test my little solar setup. I unwired
it sharpish.

--
/Simon

On 06/04/2022 02:09, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Tuesday, 5 April 2022 at 21:46:03 UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
>> Stephen Packer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But it isn't all about money, I think it's the 'right thing to do' and I like the idea of
>>> increasing my independence from 'the grid' (even though the current configuration
>>> wouldn't provide any electricity if there was a network outage).
>> What is missing from your setup that would allow you to operate
>> "off grid" just from the battery and/or PV array? I'm not sure
>> what it could be, since it appears you have to have an inverter
>> no matter what, if you are going to sell power back to the grid,
>> so theoretically you already have the bulk of what you need to
>> operate without a grid connection. Obviously there needs to be
>> some sort of isolation / transfer switch if you want to power
>> your dwelling without being connected to the grid.
>
> Configuration I guess. The inverters are set not to 'deliver AC' if
> there's no incoming mains- to avoid frying the bloke working on the line.
>
> This is all based on looking at online manuals/what-not since it's not
> yet installed.

You've got a Leaf haven't you? Did you look at using that as a battery?
I think it's possible, though the price of the connector/adapter thingy
to plug it in might be prohibitve.

--
/Simon

On 02/04/2022 01:34, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 15:39, YTC#1 wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 01/04/2022 13:01, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>>> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
>>>> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.
>>>
>>> Common misconception.  It isn't the case that solar produces zero
>>> energy when the sun doesn't shine.  It does in fact produce energy in
>>> daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.
>>>
>>> I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with
>>> architectural "features" (that I don't like).  So I subscribed to a
>>> Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed
>>> it into the grid.  My utility company then credit me for my "share".
>>> The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital
>>> equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the
>>> future where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs.
>>> On the other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a
>>> month-to-month commitment to pay for my portion of power.
>>
>> I doubt there is anything similar in the UK.
>>
>> Community PowerGrid..... hmmm, I wonder if that could be pitched :-)
>
> What I find stupid is sticking solar panels all over land that could be
> used for other purposes when there's lots of roofs that could be pressed
> into service. I think there must be a financial model that makes sense
> for everyone - how about a nationalised solar power generator that
> provides free installation, allows you to take power for your personal
> use for free (with some regulation and a maximum battery capability) and
> all the rest of the power goes into the national grid. Would need some
> more electric mountains for power storage though.

Well, some solar arrays are sufficiently high off the ground that small
livestock, e.g. sheep, can graze beneath. Also more large industrial
buildings are having panels fitted. It's not perfect, but improvements
are being made if for no other reason it's in the operator's own
interest to generate their own power. On the scale of a warehouse roof
they may have to also install local electricity storage and integrate
into the national grid. There is sometimes a problem getting grid
connection as the local section may not be able to accept the power.

On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 20:52:04 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:

> You've got a Leaf haven't you? Did you look at using that as a battery?
> I think it's possible, though the price of the connector/adapter thingy
> to plug it in might be prohibitve.

V2H operation is possible, in principle, and the appropriate adapters
are available (but I think cost around 3k). In practice it's wish-wear
with no one really having launched them (in the UK) beyond some
trials.

On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 20:50:25 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
> Ha, the widowmaker. I used one to test my little solar setup. I unwired
> it sharpish.

I've yet to wire one up. Maybe I could use the length of wire with bare
ends connected to a plug found on the farm as a child?

I had many happy moments putting the wires into water (jam jars) and
watching them 'fizz'?

Well, it was happy until I got caught then it got a bit shouty.

On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 21:20:31 UTC+1, Tim wrote:

> Well, some solar arrays are sufficiently high off the ground that small
> livestock, e.g. sheep, can graze beneath. Also more large industrial
> buildings are having panels fitted. It's not perfect, but improvements
> are being made if for no other reason it's in the operator's own
> interest to generate their own power. On the scale of a warehouse roof
> they may have to also install local electricity storage and integrate
> into the national grid. There is sometimes a problem getting grid
> connection as the local section may not be able to accept the power.

I saw sheep grazing on one of those installations today. They seemed to
mostly be able to graze where the panels weren't (in the spaces between
panels) since the panels cast shadows over the ground beneath them
and it seemed that only weeds grew there. Sheep are fussy fuckers and
leave nettles etc. What you really need are goats to clear that out but they'd
eat any visible cabling and jump all over the panels so maybe not...