Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote:
> On 17/07/2021 8:24 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote:
>>> On 15/07/2021 7:45 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 14/7/21 3:58 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear that the Army is less than pleased with their Mercedes 4WDs. The
>>>>>> old Land Rovers could be fixed in the field with a set of spanners and a
>>>>>> hammer, the Mercs have to be towed back to base, and are bastards to fix
>>>>>> with all the electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I wondered how that would turn out in the end. It's not like the
>>>>> Australian Army had much choice in the matter. The old Defenders dated
>>>>> from the early Defender days with the youngest being more than a decade
>>>>> old. The Benz has more capabilities but, as you say, the electronic will
>>>>> be problematical, especially so when they age.
>>>>
>>>> I heard that the G Wagons that the "department of name changes"
>>>> (DELWP, do firefighting in the Vic forrest areas) bought cut out
>>>> when their computer detects smoke. Which could be, umm,
>>>> inconvenient.
>>>>
>>>> Among other problems:
>>>> https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/victorian-delwp-attacked-by-awu-over-mercedesbenz-g-wagons/news-story/e687df05bcdabb6f5df57fc04db7a174?nk=a94d6ad6f572cd443471d16fc4383a0f-1626306024
>>>>
>>> That was 4 years ago !!
>>
>> So what?
>>
>>> Also did you check the response from a user ??
>>
>> No, I don't even enable the Javascript required to show comments on
>> sites like that because I don't think they're worth much coming
>> from random readers. I've never driven one, so you believe who you
>> like. Personally I wouldn't like the idea of a vehicle deciding for
>> itself to cut out in the middle of a firefighting operation, where
>> it might be required to escape from a dangerous situation. If they
>> have to do that in order to protect the gearbox, then that just
>> suggests to me that the gearbox isn't up to the job. But I only
>> know what I hear and read.
>>
> So in 4 years there are always improvements made, so you say you
> are not a random reader but an expert on vehicles ( which I notice
> you know shit about 4wd vehicles).

No I _am_ a random reader, which is exactly why I included a link
to an article from a respected source which claimed to represent
the opinion of people who did have real experience. That is the
basis for my own opinion, and not easily swayed by whatever some
random Merc fanatic might say in the comments.

> Don't judge from newsgroups, go and drive one, the mercs are
> leaders in the game.

I'm not that interested that I'd actually go and get a test-drive.
If there's an article that explains exactly why the claims of those
DELWP workers were false, I'd be interested to read it. Just "Mercs
are geat, I never have a problem with mine" sort of stuff doesn't
say much to me.

> The g wagon is the choice of the military.

Umm, yeah.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 18/7/21 12:36 am, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
> On 17/07/2021 8:24 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote:
>>> On 15/07/2021 7:45 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 14/7/21 3:58 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear that the Army is less than pleased with their Mercedes
>>>>>> 4WDs. The
>>>>>> old Land Rovers could be fixed in the field with a set of spanners
>>>>>> and a
>>>>>> hammer, the Mercs have to be towed back to base, and are bastards
>>>>>> to fix
>>>>>> with all the electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I wondered how that would turn out in the end. It's not like the
>>>>> Australian Army had much choice in the matter. The old Defenders dated
>>>>> from the early Defender days with the youngest being more than a
>>>>> decade
>>>>> old. The Benz has more capabilities but, as you say, the electronic
>>>>> will
>>>>> be problematical, especially so when they age.
>>>>
>>>> I heard that the G Wagons that the "department of name changes"
>>>> (DELWP, do firefighting in the Vic forrest areas) bought cut out
>>>> when their computer detects smoke. Which could be, umm,
>>>> inconvenient.
>>>>
>>>> Among other problems:
>>>> https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/victorian-delwp-attacked-by-awu-over-mercedesbenz-g-wagons/news-story/e687df05bcdabb6f5df57fc04db7a174?nk=a94d6ad6f572cd443471d16fc4383a0f-1626306024
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That was 4 years ago !!
>>
>> So what?
>>
>>> Also did you check the response from a user ??
>>
>> No, I don't even enable the Javascript required to show comments on
>> sites like that because I don't think they're worth much coming
>> from random readers. I've never driven one, so you believe who you
>> like. Personally I wouldn't like the idea of a vehicle deciding for
>> itself to cut out in the middle of a firefighting operation, where
>> it might be required to escape from a dangerous situation. If they
>> have to do that in order to protect the gearbox, then that just
>> suggests to me that the gearbox isn't up to the job. But I only
>> know what I hear and read.
>>
> So in 4 years there are always improvements made, so you say you are not
> a random reader but an expert on vehicles ( which I notice you know shit
> about 4wd vehicles). Don't judge from newsgroups, go and drive one, the
> mercs are leaders in the game. The g wagon is the choice of the military.

The G Wagon is the choice only because Land Rover didn't submit a
tender. The Australian Army had no choice.

--

Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 18/07/2021 12:36 am, Rheilly Phoull wrote:
> On 17/07/2021 8:24 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote:
>>> On 15/07/2021 7:45 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>>> On 14/7/21 3:58 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear that the Army is less than pleased with their Mercedes
>>>>>> 4WDs. The
>>>>>> old Land Rovers could be fixed in the field with a set of spanners
>>>>>> and a
>>>>>> hammer, the Mercs have to be towed back to base, and are bastards
>>>>>> to fix
>>>>>> with all the electronics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I wondered how that would turn out in the end. It's not like the
>>>>> Australian Army had much choice in the matter. The old Defenders dated
>>>>> from the early Defender days with the youngest being more than a
>>>>> decade
>>>>> old. The Benz has more capabilities but, as you say, the electronic
>>>>> will
>>>>> be problematical, especially so when they age.
>>>>
>>>> I heard that the G Wagons that the "department of name changes"
>>>> (DELWP, do firefighting in the Vic forrest areas) bought cut out
>>>> when their computer detects smoke. Which could be, umm,
>>>> inconvenient.
>>>>
>>>> Among other problems:
>>>> https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/victorian-delwp-attacked-by-awu-over-mercedesbenz-g-wagons/news-story/e687df05bcdabb6f5df57fc04db7a174?nk=a94d6ad6f572cd443471d16fc4383a0f-1626306024
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That was 4 years ago !!
>>
>> So what?
>>
>>> Also did you check the response from a user ??
>>
>> No, I don't even enable the Javascript required to show comments on
>> sites like that because I don't think they're worth much coming
>> from random readers. I've never driven one, so you believe who you
>> like. Personally I wouldn't like the idea of a vehicle deciding for
>> itself to cut out in the middle of a firefighting operation, where
>> it might be required to escape from a dangerous situation. If they
>> have to do that in order to protect the gearbox, then that just
>> suggests to me that the gearbox isn't up to the job. But I only
>> know what I hear and read.
>>
> So in 4 years there are always improvements made, so you say you are not
> a random reader but an expert on vehicles ( which I notice you know shit
> about 4wd vehicles). Don't judge from newsgroups, go and drive one, the
> mercs are leaders in the game. The g wagon is the choice of the military.

What the Army wants is a vehicle that will reliably run under the worst
possible conditions. The G-Wagon may be nice to drive and comfortable,
but it doesn't appear to meet those conditions.

The other requirement would be to be fixable in the field, but probably
no current vehicle would meet that.

On 14/07/2021 1:58 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 13/07/2021 3:56 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 13/07/2021 9:44 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 13/07/2021 11:22 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>> On 12/07/2021 2:50 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 12/07/2021 4:16 am, R Souls wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 20:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
>>>>>> <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> ================
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been cleaning out the store-room (aka: The garage). Look at
>>>>>>>> what I
>>>>>>>> found:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://imgur.com/dfEQnOh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My very first power transistor (if you don't count the AC128
>>>>>>>> that came
>>>>>>>> with my Philips Electronic Engineer kit). The mighty 2N301.
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ** Remember them well, every 60s pushbutton car radio had one -
>>>>>>> operating in class A with a choke load and a 16 ohm speaker.
>>>>>>>     Usually mounted on a black anodised Al heatsink with no
>>>>>>> insulators.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     One I worked on had special 12V supply valves in the RF stages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had one of those. It was a Motorola.and it worked a treat. Can't
>>>>>> remember where I found it but I fitted it into my Austin Maxi in the
>>>>>> 1980s. It was made for a positive earth system so I had to insullate
>>>>>> the whole thing form the car chassis. My mates couldn't understand
>>>>>> why
>>>>>> it took half a minute to warm up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got 35 quid for it on ebay a few years back. A bloke wanted it for
>>>>>> his 1959 Hillman Minx he'd restored..
>>>>>
>>>>> **"Warm up"? Must have been a valve model. ALL SS ones are instant
>>>>> on. Except for the latest ones that are fitted with 15
>>>>> microprocessors.
>>>>>
>>>>> You think I'm joking? I flattened the battery in my 2018 Subaru
>>>>> and, due to a fuck-up with jump starting the thing, I managed to
>>>>> shut down all the safety systems. I took it to my mechanic, who
>>>>> placed his OBD-II machine on the car. It reported the prescence of
>>>>> 27 microprocessors.
>>>>
>>>> That's a low number by todays standards but that's unsurprising for
>>>> a Subaru. When I did the Holden Vectra training around 2003 or so
>>>> that model already had around that many.
>>>
>>> **Really. That surprises me. I had the in-laws' 2001 Vectra here for
>>> a bit, as they wanted it sold. It was less sophisticated than my VP
>>> Commodore (admittedly, optioned to Calais level). Unless, of course,
>>> they did a radical re-fit of the Vectra by 2003.
>>>
>>
>> The ZC Vectra was a very different beast. It had all the fruit (TCS,
>> ESC, SRS, ABS etc etc) but it also had things like modules for each
>> tail light, headlight, door lock etc. The VP had bugger all computing
>> power, just an ECM and BCM basically. There were different BCM
>> "levels" (for instance high or low) depending on the luxury level of
>> the vehicle but in terms of computing power it had bugger all.
>>
>>>>
>>>> BY
>>>>> my reckoning my Suby has about a billion times more computing power
>>>>> than a space shuttle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not really. Each module contains it's own "computer" and they
>>>> communicate over the CAN-BUS. Many of these are typically pretty low
>>>> power in terms of computing power. There is one for pretty much
>>>> everything these days.
>>>
>>> **True enough. Bloody things are everywhere. They're so cheap and so
>>> powerful, manufacturers can't help themselves. When I built an
>>> intermittant wiper attachment for my Escort, I needed a small handful
>>> of discrete components (A UJT, an SCR, a potentiometer, a couple of
>>> caps and half a dozen resistors). Even back then it cost less than
>>> $15.00 to build. I betcha manufacturers use a dedicated micro for the
>>> job.
>>
>> They do and with it comes issues. Like the bloke who attempted to wire
>> up some spot lights on his NP300 Navara and destroyed the IPDM - $300
>> module from Nissan plus labour...
>
> I hear that the Army is less than pleased with their Mercedes 4WDs. The
> old Land Rovers could be fixed in the field with a set of spanners and a
> hammer, the Mercs have to be towed back to base, and are bastards to fix
> with all the electronics.

The Mercedes X class is just a tarted up Nissan NP300. So yeah, I can
see that being a problem.

On 17/07/2021 8:24 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> wrote:
>> On 15/07/2021 7:45 am, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 14/7/21 3:58 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I hear that the Army is less than pleased with their Mercedes 4WDs. The
>>>>> old Land Rovers could be fixed in the field with a set of spanners and a
>>>>> hammer, the Mercs have to be towed back to base, and are bastards to fix
>>>>> with all the electronics.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I wondered how that would turn out in the end. It's not like the
>>>> Australian Army had much choice in the matter. The old Defenders dated
>>>> from the early Defender days with the youngest being more than a decade
>>>> old. The Benz has more capabilities but, as you say, the electronic will
>>>> be problematical, especially so when they age.
>>>
>>> I heard that the G Wagons that the "department of name changes"
>>> (DELWP, do firefighting in the Vic forrest areas) bought cut out
>>> when their computer detects smoke. Which could be, umm,
>>> inconvenient.
>>>
>>> Among other problems:
>>> https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/news/national/victorian-delwp-attacked-by-awu-over-mercedesbenz-g-wagons/news-story/e687df05bcdabb6f5df57fc04db7a174?nk=a94d6ad6f572cd443471d16fc4383a0f-1626306024
>>>
>> That was 4 years ago !!
>
> So what?
>
>> Also did you check the response from a user ??
>
> No, I don't even enable the Javascript required to show comments on
> sites like that because I don't think they're worth much coming
> from random readers. I've never driven one, so you believe who you
> like. Personally I wouldn't like the idea of a vehicle deciding for
> itself to cut out in the middle of a firefighting operation, where
> it might be required to escape from a dangerous situation. If they
> have to do that in order to protect the gearbox, then that just
> suggests to me that the gearbox isn't up to the job. But I only
> know what I hear and read.
>

I don't bother with comments from random people either, especially since
they are just as likely to be company stooges and not random at all ;-)
As for the G wagons cutting out when detecting smoke that could easily
be fixed with a firmware update.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:50:57 +1000, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>On 12/07/2021 4:16 am, R Souls wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 20:33:32 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
>> <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> ================
>>>>
>>>> I've been cleaning out the store-room (aka: The garage). Look at what I
>>>> found:
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/dfEQnOh
>>>>
>>>> My very first power transistor (if you don't count the AC128 that came
>>>> with my Philips Electronic Engineer kit). The mighty 2N301.
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ** Remember them well, every 60s pushbutton car radio had one - operating in class A with a choke load and a 16 ohm speaker.
>>> Usually mounted on a black anodised Al heatsink with no insulators.
>>>
>>> One I worked on had special 12V supply valves in the RF stages.
>>
>> I had one of those. It was a Motorola.and it worked a treat. Can't
>> remember where I found it but I fitted it into my Austin Maxi in the
>> 1980s. It was made for a positive earth system so I had to insullate
>> the whole thing form the car chassis. My mates couldn't understand why
>> it took half a minute to warm up.
>>
>> I got 35 quid for it on ebay a few years back. A bloke wanted it for
>> his 1959 Hillman Minx he'd restored..
>
>**"Warm up"? Must have been a valve model.

Indeed it was.

The RF & IF sections had (I think) four B7G valves designed for a 12
volt HT supply and a separate class A audio output module using I
think a single OC28.

>ALL SS ones are instant on.
>Except for the latest ones that are fitted with 15 microprocessors.
>
>You think I'm joking? I flattened the battery in my 2018 Subaru and, due
>to a fuck-up with jump starting the thing, I managed to shut down all
>the safety systems. I took it to my mechanic, who placed his OBD-II
>machine on the car. It reported the prescence of 27 microprocessors. BY
>my reckoning my Suby has about a billion times more computing power than
>a space shuttle.

Pomegranate Bastard wrote:

=========================
>
> >**"Warm up"? Must have been a valve model.
> Indeed it was.
>
> The RF & IF sections had (I think) four B7G valves designed for a 12
> volt HT supply and a separate class A audio output module using I
> think a single OC28.

** B7G is the socket number.

The 12V valves were miniature 7 pin types - eg:
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa1434.htm

...... Phil

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pomegranate Bastard wrote:
>
>=========================
>>
>> >**"Warm up"? Must have been a valve model.
>> Indeed it was.
>>
>> The RF & IF sections had (I think) four B7G valves designed for a 12
>> volt HT supply and a separate class A audio output module using I
>> think a single OC28.
>
>** B7G is the socket number.
>
>The 12V valves were miniature 7 pin types - eg:
>
>http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa1434.htm
>
>
>
>..... Phil
>
>
>
>
>

Looks about right. I didn't take the valves out to look at them but I
think they were all B7G style.

I remember it being really sensitive and stable, much better than the
transistor radio it replaced.