On 9 Mar 2022 at 2:39:25 PM, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

> I have an IMAP Email account with ProtonMail that cost fifty dollars a
> year. It's encrypted, and ProtonMail claims they can't even read it.

Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
--
Cheers, Rob

On 9 Mar 2022 at 1:36:56 PM, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> IMAP is designed for webmail.

No it wasn't.

Why would you say such a thing?

--
Cheers, Rob

In article <t0ahog$1kao$1@gioia.aioe.org>, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>
> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?

there was, and there was a lot more to that story.

On 3/9/2022 2:50 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Besides, what app actually requires the contacts to be uploaded anyway?
>
> I live in Europe. The data protection laws here prohibit that, so it is
> not happening.

Are you sure of that?
I thought Google syncs updated contacts across all devices.
How do you have contacts in Europe without that?

Am 09.03.22 um 16:40 schrieb RJH:
> On 9 Mar 2022 at 2:39:25 PM, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>> I have an IMAP Email account with ProtonMail that cost fifty dollars a
>> year. It's encrypted, and ProtonMail claims they can't even read it.
>
> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?

On a court order, you idiot.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 09.03.22 um 14:36 schrieb Mayayana:
> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
> what makes most sense for those uses.

What?
You have absolutely no clue about both protocols.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In article <t0ai8v$op0$3@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> > Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
>
> On a court order, you idiot.

in particular, they complied with swiss law to *begin* logging someone
and after failing to appeal the request.

<https://www.wired.com/story/protonmail-amends-policy-after-giving-up-ac
tivists-data/>
As usual, the devil is in the details‹ProtonMail's original policy
simply said that the service does not keep IP logs "by default."
However, as a Swiss company, ProtonMail was obliged to comply
with a Swiss court's demand that it begin logging IP address and
browser fingerprint information for a particular ProtonMail account.
....
ProtonMail is also careful to point out that, although its user's IP
address and browser fingerprint were collected by Swiss authorities
acting on behalf of Interpol, the company's guarantees of email
content privacy were not breached.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 08.03.22 um 18:32 schrieb nospam:
> > In article <t082kh.16j0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
> > Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

[Earlier attributions - J. P. Gilliver (John) and Joerg Lorenz - deleted
by the silent-snipper.]

> >>>> I collect my email on one device (this computer), and manually move
> >>>> emails into folders occasionally. (Actually, I do have some
> >>>> autorouteing.) I do backups. For me, the touted advantages of IMAP are
> >>>> zero.
> >>>
> >>> You do not understand the concept of IMAP and obviously the value of
> >>> your time and the security of your mails has a value of zero for you.
> >>>
> >>> Poor John!
> >>
> >> Poor Joerg! Hasn't a clue that e-mail is just information/data. Guess
> >> how all that *other* information/data is kept secure? IMAP is doing
> >> diddly squat for that!
> >
> > actually, it is doing quite a bit. imap requires login credentials to
> > access email, whereas the local hd/ssd does not unless it's encrypted,
> > which at least for windows, is not that common. backup drives (usb
> > stick, external hd/ssd) are also generally not encrypted. if the laptop
> > and/or external media is lost or stolen, everything is exposed.
>
> The way he reacted let me doubt that he will understand what you say.

Well, as I noted in another response, he didn't even understand what I
wrote, so be careful whose company you choose.

> There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> professionally managed server.

True, but not all email (and others) servers are professionally
managed and even if they are, you still need to have local copies of
your email/data if you need access to them when there's no network
available or feasible.

And you need backup of your email/data, because relying on just a
single copy of your email/data is foolish.

So you *still* need to secure and backup the email/data on the
laptop/server(s), so, whether you use IMAP or POP, those problems
remain.

Thanks for playing.

EOD.

Am 09.03.22 um 16:58 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t0ai8v$op0$3@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>>> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
>>
>> On a court order, you idiot.
>
> in particular, they complied with swiss law to *begin* logging someone
> and after failing to appeal the request.
>
> <https://www.wired.com/story/protonmail-amends-policy-after-giving-up-ac
> tivists-data/>
> As usual, the devil is in the details‹ProtonMail's original policy
> simply said that the service does not keep IP logs "by default."
> However, as a Swiss company, ProtonMail was obliged to comply
> with a Swiss court's demand that it begin logging IP address and
> browser fingerprint information for a particular ProtonMail account.
> ...
> ProtonMail is also careful to point out that, although its user's IP
> address and browser fingerprint were collected by Swiss authorities
> acting on behalf of Interpol, the company's guarantees of email
> content privacy were not breached.

Protonmail is utter nonsense. At the very beginning I was taking part in
the crowd funding for ProtonMail.

After a severe hack I became aware that a lot of their claims are
marketing. And beyond that: The company is Swiss and has to comply with
Swiss legislation.

E-Mail is the wrong way for confidential communication. Full Stop and
nothing to add.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 22:30:40 +0100, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

>There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
>professionally managed server.

I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
but not all of them.

Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:39:25 -0600, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

>I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to have an Email account with
>Google.

"Stupid enough"? That's a very brash statement which is undoubtedly
insulting to many people, including me.

I have a Gmail account. It's not my main e-mail account, and I use it
only to receive unimportant advertising mail. I never use it to send
mail, but it's also there as backup to my main e-mail account, just in
case it goes down for some reason.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

In message <t0aaif$u46$1@dont-email.me> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> IMAP is designed for webmail.

Absolutely redicullous, IMAP has been around far longer than the web.

> POP3 is designed for reading email in client software.

"in client software" WTF does that mean?

POP3 is designed for reading mail on a single device. It was suitable for
a system where you logged in to a specific computer and read mil there.

IMAP is designed for reading email on multiple devices and being able to
keep that email in sync. It has many advantages of POP3 and POP3 has NO
advatanges over IMAP because IMAP can be used in a way that replicates
POP exactly, while the same cannot be said of POP3.

> Each defaults to being what makes most sense for those uses.

Ther is absolutely no reason for anyone to be using POP3. It offers zero
advantages over IMAP and zero features over IMAP.

> Originally all email was downloaded to a client and then deleted from
> the server. People were not allowed to have much space on the server.
> Then with webmail

Webmail has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Nothing. I've been using
IMAP exclusively for over 20 years and I do not read email in a
browser, I can, of course, but I don't.

> If you use client software it shouldn't matter.

Of course it matters. If you have multiple devices, POP is a fucking
nightmare. I routinely read my mail on 4 different computers: a desktop,
a laptop, a tablet, and a phone. Managing that with POP is so close to
impossible as makes no difference.

I often start a reply to an email on my phone, realize I have more to
type than I thought, and finish the mail on my laptop or desktop. This is
impossible with POP.

Again, there is *nothing* that POP3 ofers that cannot be done with IMAP
and there are many things that can be done in IMAP that cannot be
replicated in POP3. Ergo, no reason to ever use POP3.

--
Ninjas don't hug!

In article <t0anga.15hc.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> > professionally managed server.
>
> True, but not all email (and others) servers are professionally
> managed

just about all of them are.

> and even if they are, you still need to have local copies of
> your email/data if you need access to them when there's no network
> available or feasible.

only to read/reply offline. if that's not important, then there is no
need for a local copy, although most email apps cache, so you get that
anyway.

> And you need backup of your email/data, because relying on just a
> single copy of your email/data is foolish.

the email provider backs it up extensively than anything an end user
can possibly do, including multiple redundant drives and geographically
distributed locations.

> So you *still* need to secure and backup the email/data on the
> laptop/server(s), so, whether you use IMAP or POP, those problems
> remain.

more copies is always a good thing, but it's not as important as you
make it out to be, especially given that it's backed up by the email
provider.

In article <ckmh2h93iob1c9a2ojt5fhn7i8b9q59f87@4ax.com>, Ken Blake
<Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> >There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> >professionally managed server.
>
>
> I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
> server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
> but not all of them.

easy solution: us email providers that are professionally managed.

nothing is 100%, but the risk that an email provider would lose mail is
*extremely* low, much lower than if someone manages it on their own.

> Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
> generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.

that too incurs a risk. media can fail and a natural disaster can
destroy the bank's building and its contents.

it's also impossible to have an up-to-date copy of email stored in a
bank vault (or anything, for that matter).

Am 09.03.22 um 17:58 schrieb Ken Blake:
> On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:39:25 -0600, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>
>> I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to have an Email account with
>> Google.
>
>
>
> "Stupid enough"? That's a very brash statement which is undoubtedly
> insulting to many people, including me.

But he is right. Zero privacy and I reject all mails from Gmail-senders
on my regular mail-accounts. I do not want Google to collect information
about me indirectly.

> I have a Gmail account. It's not my main e-mail account, and I use it
> only to receive unimportant advertising mail. I never use it to send
> mail, but it's also there as backup to my main e-mail account, just in
> case it goes down for some reason.

I use my Google-account only to get all the stupid technical mails who
logged into my Google-account and whether it was me and which device
from where. Utter busllshit and only useable for mentally handicapped
people. Google has no access to anything else.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 09.03.22 um 17:53 schrieb Ken Blake:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 22:30:40 +0100, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
>> professionally managed server.
>
>
> I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
> server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
> but not all of them.

I have serious doubts that you are in teh position to judge that. I talk
about companies like Apple, Amazon, Microsoft or others.

> Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
> generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.

That is a solution from the last century ...
I have better things to do with my money and my time.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> I do not want Google to collect information
> about me indirectly.

Given Apple requires you to maintain an iCloud account if you ever want to
make your iPhone useful, and given Apple certainly collects reams upon reams
of data about you every single day, why do you use an iPhone then?

*I asked Apple for all my data. Here's what was sent back*
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/>

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Am 09.03.22 um 14:36 schrieb Mayayana:
>> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
>> reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
>> what makes most sense for those uses.
>
> What?
> You have absolutely no clue about both protocols.

When you have people like Jeorg proving Mayayana wrong, that's
Mayayana === Moron

nospam wrote:

>> IMAP is designed for webmail.
>
> imap began life in the 1980s, long before webmail was even an idea, let
> alone an actual thing, designed to go beyond the limitations of pop.

Mayayana pulled the racist moves he _always_ pulls...
(If one black guy is a criminal, to Mayayana, _all_ black people are.)

In this case, he uses IMAP. And he uses Webmail.
That's all Mayayana needs to form his very strongly held baseless opinions.

To low IQ people like Mayayana clearly is...
IMAP === webmail

Lewis wrote:

> In message <t0aaif$u46$1@dont-email.me> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>> IMAP is designed for webmail.
>
> Absolutely redicullous, IMAP has been around far longer than the web.

When you have the lowest-IQ morons of all showing Mayayana wrong...
That's ironic.

We proved long ago Mayayana has the classic racists' inabilities.
*If one black man is a criminal, to Mayayana, all are.*

To low-IQ racists like Mayayana, all he needed was a single association.
webmail
IMAP

Hence, to low-IQ uneducated morons like Mayayana, they're the same thing!
Mayayana === Moron

On 9 Mar 2022 at 4:42:40 PM, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:

> E-Mail is the wrong way for confidential communication. Full Stop and
> nothing to add.

Didn't the CIA Director General Petraeus get caught by using GMAIL even when
he didn't send any emails?
--
Cheers, Rob

Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 22:30:40 +0100, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
>> professionally managed server.
>
>
> I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
> server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
> but not all of them.
>
> Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
> generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.
>
>
>
>
Safe Deposit:
Personal data, yes.
Emails might be a stretch - in this day and age of smart devices like a
phone/iPad/Android tablet(in addition to the use of them as the primary
and in many cases the only stored location beyond the email account web
server) - the ability to backup offline to any media, frequency of
accessing a safe deposit box for safe storage would be quite a challenge
even for the most dedicated. A secondary issue for many is the lack of
availability of bank safe deposit boxes.

Professionally managed server: (from Jorge's comment)
- Is there such a thing as an 'unprofessionally managed server'?
Considering how many people manage their personal email storage, the
safest place may very well be on the email accounts web server.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <t0anga.15hc.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
> Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> > > professionally managed server.
> >
> > True, but not all email (and others) servers are professionally
> > managed
>
> just about all of them are.
>
> > and even if they are, you still need to have local copies of
> > your email/data if you need access to them when there's no network
> > available or feasible.
>
> only to read/reply offline. if that's not important, then there is no
> need for a local copy, although most email apps cache, so you get that
> anyway.

You're still <whoosh!>-ing. At least Joerg *did* get it. You know,
Joerg, the one whose attribution you snipped.

Read the first two lines you quoted above and try again.

[More similar misinterpretations kept for reference:]

> > And you need backup of your email/data, because relying on just a
> > single copy of your email/data is foolish.
>
> the email provider backs it up extensively than anything an end user
> can possibly do, including multiple redundant drives and geographically
> distributed locations.
>
> > So you *still* need to secure and backup the email/data on the
> > laptop/server(s), so, whether you use IMAP or POP, those problems
> > remain.
>
> more copies is always a good thing, but it's not as important as you
> make it out to be, especially given that it's backed up by the email
> provider.

On 2022-03-09 18:22, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 09.03.22 um 17:53 schrieb Ken Blake:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 22:30:40 +0100, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
>>> professionally managed server.
>>
>>
>> I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
>> server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
>> but not all of them.
>
> I have serious doubts that you are in teh position to judge that. I talk
> about companies like Apple, Amazon, Microsoft or others.

Google does things I do not consider professional.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-03-09 14:36, Mayayana wrote:
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote
>
> | > imap can easily download email to your computer.
> |
> | Can it? How do you configure it to do that? I thought that if you received
> | your email by IMAP it never left the server, apart from when the client
> | downloads a transient copy of it to read, which was erased when you closed
> | the mail app.
> |
> | What is the big advantage of IMAP over POP?
> |
>
> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software.

Wow. No.

IMAP was invented on 1985, way before webmail appeared.

In fact, the inventor of IMAP also created a mail client that runs in
plain text mode, which can use both POP3 or IMAP (Alpine).

IMAP was indeed invented to be used on client software. On multiple
client software.

One of the very early uses of POP3 included 4 different applications:

one to download mail
one to sort mail in local folders
one to view email.
another to send email produced by the previous step

--
Cheers, Carlos.