On 14/02/2024 10:25, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uqhtjj$2ijm2$1@dont-email.me>,
> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> A vaccinated person who contracts the virus (normally with reduced
>> effects) will normally have coughs and sneezes with a reduced viral
>> payload compared to a non-vaccinated person. This is how
>> transmission is reduced by vaccination. The word being reduced not
>> eliminated.
>
> I hope that is true.
>
> Evidence?
>
>
Well its all a bit hard to be sure. Science is like that.

It could be the man tearing newspapers up and throwing them out of the
train windows to 'keep the elephants down'. What Elephants? That's how
effective it is....

Or it could be that the vaccines have done what they were intended to
do, taken the edge off Covid until what's left is a population with
moderate resistance and mutated strains that are not much worse than the
flu.

In the end we can't know the truth, because we don't have any
unvaccinated populations to act as control groups.

All we know is that the human race has muddled through to the position
where Covid is a minor, not a major threat, and we can all go on living.

I've had every jab going, may or may not have had Covid so mildly that I
never distinguished it from a touch of flu or a slight cold, but a
friend of mine is in hospital dying essentially of old age, but what
took him over the edge was Covid the other month.

It was the last straw, Now he has essentially given up the struggle.

It's probably not worth getting hot under the collar about.

Life is, in the final analysis a strange mystery anyway, and getting
upset that we don't understand it at all, is why they invented religion.

"Its OK, God knows what's he is doing¨.

As against "Its not OK! God knows WHAT *they* are doing".

In a very real sense, it is your choice what to believe, and in the
absence of evidence one way or another, why not believe, pro tem, in
what makes life a bit more comfortable.

I guess I prefer to believe that the powers that be are a bunch of
paranoid bumbling incompetents rather than some Edwardian Evil Genius
like Professor Moriarty or Fu Manchu...

I mean. Look at Biden. Or Trump for that matter. Not the sharpest knives
in the drawer are they?

Or Bill Gates. Got a lot of power, but is he a genius? Not really.

Remember the world is whatever *is* the case, but peoples lives and
their choices are governed by what they *believe* to be the case.

And the mum whose kid dies of German measles because she *believed* MMR
was dangerous, is a victim of that belief.

I've known people who survived Polio - just. At my first school was one
such. I had no problem in getting that vaccine, I can tell you.

Nor with smallpox vaccinations, which I was one of the ones I got. Along
with BCG for tuberculosis.

I got ill with measles, German measles and scarlet fever and mumps, and
extremely unpleasant they were too.

I missed diptheria, thank heavens.

Perhaps you are younger, and don't remember an age where people of the
previous generation died like flies from raging bacterial infections,
which the new fangled antibiotics stopped stone dead, or raging viral
infections, for which the only known remedy was quality nursing and
isolation. And which often left the patient damaged for life, if not dead.

Slowly we developed vaccines for the viral infections, and they are now
a standard part of childhood. And the proof of the pudding is that we
no longer have epidemics of childhood diseases. Or at leats we didn't
before parents were scared into not letting their kids get vaccinated,
and the influx of immigrants brought all the old diseases back.

Believe what ever you want, in the absence of certain knowledge, which
is the human condition. And the reason for religion, which promises a
certainty it surely cannot deliver. But, if believed in. makes you feel
a lot better.

--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:29:01 +0000 (GMT)
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <l32ar3FbjbfU2@mid.individual.net>,
> TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
> > On 13 Feb 2024 at 15:51:56 GMT, "mm0fmf" <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 13/02/2024 15:32, Bob Latham wrote:
> > >> In article <uqg11c$24ou7$1@dont-email.me>,
> > >> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Vaccinations certainly did work,
> > >>
> > >> Well I'm very sure they do not prevent transmission.
> > >>
> > > They reduce the likelihood of onward transmission.
>
> > This makes much more sense.
>
> Evidence?

One of the best pieces of evidence for the effectiveness of the
Covid vaccines came from shortly before it stopped being news, with
Ireland at 90% vaccinated the Covid wards were 50/50 vaccinated and not.
IOW you were nine times less likely to wind up in hospital if you were
vaccinated than if not.

The total numbers of people with bad side effects were tiny
compared to the vast numbers of people vaccinated.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:37:48 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at that
> point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative they think
> the plebs will understand.

It has to be one that *they* all understand *and* think they can
sell to their voters.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:28:08 +0000 (GMT)
Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> Yes that would be fine but authorities the world over made claims you
> don't get covid if you're vaccinated.

Nowhere that I ever saw. The expectations were clear from the start
as was the degree of certainty in them.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 14/02/2024 10:28, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uqhtnu$2ijm2$2@dont-email.me>,
> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 21:32, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> The
>>> manufacturers have admitted that no testing on transmission was done.
>
>> Straw-man. Some manufacturers said that they did no testing on
>> transmission as they were not required to do such testing for
>> approval. They had plenty of other tests to perform for approval
>> which were performed.
>
>
> Yes that would be fine but authorities the world over made claims you
> don't get covid if you're vaccinated. then had to make video
> statements insisting they never said any such thing.
>
You keep saying that. I don't recall any in my own experience.

Didn't Donald Trump tell you to drink bleach or something?

And when did you start to believe in 'authorities' unquestioningly anyway?

I gave up on that at the age of around 7...

> Bob.
>

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 14/02/2024 10:54, Pancho wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 15:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> As I said, a careful mixture of truth and bullshit.
>>
>> Vaccinations certainly did work, but we got the ones Big Pharma made
>> the most cash out of...
>>
>>
>>
>
> Speak for yourself, I was given Vaxzevria. That was all I had before I
> caught Covid the first time. I had the other ones later, but that was
> probably a mistake.
>
>
> I would commend AstraZeneca for trying to offer the vaccine cheaply.

I got the Astra one the first time, then I think a Pfizer and a Moderna.

They rejected the Astra one based on the idiocy that it 'wasn't 100%
effective' Well neither were the expensive ones, as we have been discussing.
The ArtStudent narrative was created by Big Pharma to discredit
competitors.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 14/02/2024 10:53, Bob Latham wrote:
> Because that was the claim at the time. Getting vaccinated prevents
> you getting covid. Do I really have to spend time finding the famous
> video of this?

Yes, because I have no recollection of that *ever being said*.

In the UK it was all about *less* likely, *less* severe. Which is why we
still had more lockdown after vaccination. As other mutations cropped up.

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Re: Re: Google Groups
By: The Natural Philosopher to TimS on Tue Feb 13 2024 09:25 am

> In the UK a handgun *of any sort* is illegal outside of competition use,
> the police, or the military, it having been deemed that their *only*
> valid use is killing people.
>

This irks me the wrong way because if you have a weapon licensed as a sporting
gun, and a truck runs a cow over in your village, you cannot put the dying cow
down humanely because you get charged with unlawful weapon posesion (ie. you
have a non-sporting gun now, and haven't got a non-sporting gun license).

And then they also charge you with animal cruelty on top of that.

Fuck Spain.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

Re: Re: Google Groups
By: TimS to tnp@invalid.invalid on Tue Feb 13 2024 10:54 pm

> I know that. But instead of being warmongers they might have merely been
> strong leaders for their countries. Unluckily for the world, they *are/were*
> warmongers, when there was no need. And *that* is what we have to guard
> against and prepare for.

I don't think Xi is such a big warmonger since he is taking heavy profits from
the opposite approach - opening to trade and sending Chinesse workforce to
develop poor countries to bring them into the Chinesse sphere of influence. I
think his position regarding Taiwan is macho posturing. Putin has also a
non-weak (I won't say "strong") case that the NATO is making open advances
torward Russian interests and that Russian efforts to collaborate with NATO
against common enemies have not been welcome.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

Re: Re: Google Groups
By: TimS to Bob Latham on Tue Feb 13 2024 11:22 pm

> b) viruses mutate. Which is why I keep taking the jabs as they are offered.
> It's routine now: I get a message from the climic and I go there are they gi
> me a covid jab in one arm, and flu in the other, at the same time. This will
> now happen every winter. Prior to covid, I was getting the annual flu jab la
> every year. Only had flu once in the last 20 years - and that was because th
> particular jab was only goodd for 3 of the 4 strains going around, and I was
> unlucky.
>
> c) Vaccines/transmission. Just because I'm vaccinated doesn't affect the vir
> load someone coughs on me. What vaccination *does* affect is subsequent
> events. Which is what counts. So stop bleating that the manufacturers did no
> transmission tests. Why would they? Why would anyone expect them to?
>

b) I will mention that Spain dropped the ball here. We bought shitloads of
covid jabs and, by the time a given mutation of the virus was done, we kept
vaccinating pople against the old mutation instead of the new one because they
wanted to clear the inventory of the old vaccines.

c) The selling point of the jabs was precisely transmission reduction around
here. Imagine you put a brand or car for sale arguing that its special
properties will make hair grow back on your bald head, and then no particular
test is performed - even at an informal level - before the car hits the market.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

On 14/02/2024 11:39, Bob Latham wrote:

> Surely you remember that we had professors of serious note like
> Sunetra Gupta who were completely shut out of the conversation
> because politicians had decided what the truth was going to be and
> only allowed doctors who agreed with the narrative to speak. Perhaps
> you were unaware of the group that formed of viral experts from
> across the globe offering an alternative view which was shut out.
>

Sunetra was significantly wrong, in that she underestimated the
infection fatality rate. I think with hindsight the lockdowns were bad,
but without hindsight they were the right thing to do.

Hopefully, for the future, politicians have come up with plans to
protect the elderly, so the rest of society can continue to function
with the need for lockdowns, if the same sort of disease strikes again.
Hopefully they have also come up with plans for different scenarios too.

> The models were from that well known Prof Neil Ferguson otherwise
> know as pants down because he didn't believe his own model when it
> came to his sexual desires and broke the rules.
>

The models were approximately right.

Ferguson had already been infected with Covid by the time he was caught
with his pants down. At that time, with few mutations, there was a
period of post infection immunity, in scientific terms he actions were
of negligible risk to himself, and very small risk to society. A bit
like the parties at number 10.

In article <uqia43$2klrs$2@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 10:28, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <uqhtnu$2ijm2$2@dont-email.me>,
> > mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
> >> On 13/02/2024 21:32, Bob Latham wrote:
> >>> The
> >>> manufacturers have admitted that no testing on transmission was done.
> >
> >> Straw-man. Some manufacturers said that they did no testing on
> >> transmission as they were not required to do such testing for
> >> approval. They had plenty of other tests to perform for approval
> >> which were performed.
> >
> >
> > Yes that would be fine but authorities the world over made claims
> > you don't get covid if you're vaccinated. then had to make video
> > statements insisting they never said any such thing.

> You keep saying that. I don't recall any in my own experience.

I can't drop my hand on the video showing a host of world leaders
doing this at the moment, it may not still be available.

As it happened last night on GB News this came up. I wasn't watching
it but it's linked from my twitter feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-sKFXgiBk

Here Nigel Farage confirms the same thing. Look around 46.00 minutes
mark.

> Didn't Donald Trump tell you to drink bleach or something?

Don't be silly.

> And when did you start to believe in 'authorities' unquestioningly
> anyway?

> I gave up on that at the age of around 7...

Exactly my point, the media and leaders as always LIED.

Bob.

On 14/02/2024 11:39, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uqi55t$2jrmq$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 21:32, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> Right so there is a video that shows presidents, prime ministers
>>> doctors and professors all claiming they didn't say it stopped you
>>> getting covid. Then the video goes on to show them all saying exactly
>>> that.
>
>> Again, you are confusing facts with narratives.
>
>> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at
>> that point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative
>> they think the plebs will understand.
>
>> You are inferring far too much from human weakness. And expecting
>> far too much from 'experts'
>
>> I don't know what you are actually referring too, but at leats in
>> my personal memory all I saw was a lot of politicians in a panic,
>> and a lot of epidemioligsts with some extremely sketchy models,
>> all of which said (in the case of the UK), that if something
>> wasn't done, deaths were likely to exceed 50,000, and the peak
>> rate of the sperad would completely overwhelm the hospitals.
>
> Of all the people to write something like that you were the last I
> expected. I know you are aware that main stream media pushes
> propaganda not truth, I know you are.
>

I never said that was the truth, I said that is what they said.

But it made sense to me. So, pro tem, I accepted it with reservations.

And because I have a lot of life threatening conditions and spent a lot
of time in and out of hospital, I talked to the staff, and it was not a
complete lie.

> Surely you remember that we had professors of serious note like
> Sunetra Gupta who were completely shut out of the conversation
> because politicians had decided what the truth was going to be and
> only allowed doctors who agreed with the narrative to speak. Perhaps
> you were unaware of the group that formed of viral experts from
> across the globe offering an alternative view which was shut out.
>
If they were shut out, how could I become aware?.

Look, I really wasn't that *interested*. There are always groups of
people with views that they hope will bring them 15 minutes of fame and
a career on the Telly.

As I recall, and I dint pay much attention at the time, the choice was
initially between lockdown and a massive epidemic culling the herd and
leaving the rest with immunity. With an NHS in crisis and unable to
cope, and a potential death rate up to half a million.

My cardiologist told me 'even if I wanted to, I cant send you to
Papworth, because the open heart surgery equipment that keeps patients
alive when they have stopped breathing and their hearts have stopped, is
fully in use keeping COVID patients alive'.

Why would he lie?

> The models were from that well known Prof Neil Ferguson otherwise
> know as pants down because he didn't believe his own model when it
> came to his sexual desires and broke the rules.
>
Sure, the model detailed constants were not known, but the shape of the
curves was.
And if we bothered to derogate anyone who gets his end away out of hours
we wouldn't have anyone left..

> This man is and was at the time notorious for massive exaggeration of
> deaths from every virus that got near us. He had form for this kind
> of nonsense and then some. He was always massively WRONG. But his
> ridiculous models were very useful for the narrative.

In fact as I recall he said 'if we don't lock down we may get as many as
50,000 excess deaths' In fact we ended up with 150,000

>
> We both know from ACC how models only reflect the opinion or desire
> of their creator, they are propaganda tools, nothing more.
>

No, they are not 'nothing more'. They are best guesses. at best. Only
when serious money is involved do they become mere marketing tools, as
with EcoBollox™

> You also seem unaware that many deaths attributed to covid were
> really from other things like the end of life drug, I'd have to look
> the name given to many elderly in care homes. Or that ventilators
> were in themselves the cause of deaths.
>
Again you are doing the ArtStudent thing, saying 'dying with, isn't the
same as dying of'

The scientific realty is that when we look at average annual death
rates, for whatever reason, there were around 150,000 more deaths than
expected during covid.
It's like my friend, he isn't dying of Covid, he is just dying. But if
he hadn't had Covid he might have lasted another couple of years.

Another friends wife didn't due strictly of motor neurone disease, she
died when she stopped breathing. Because her nervous system stopped
telling her lungs what to do. Or because she was given too much
medication (or just enough)

>
> But congratulations. I've never seen such an expert job of air
> brushing inconvenient truths.
>
> Surprisingly you too seem to be a victim of the media.
>
> No point in arguing further.
>

Bob, I think you are in denial., Its you that are the victim here.

You haven't faced up to the truth that no one knew then and no one knows
even now what was the best course of action.

You claim you do? No way pal. You just chose to believe in one group and
simply 'cancel' the mainstream.

I understand that, but its not worthy of you. You OUGHT to have gone
into stuff way more deeply if you cared enough.

I didn't listen to politicians. I listened to the people working in the
NHS. I looked at data published by the NHS.

And I used what I know of modelling and epidemiology to get at least a
basic understanding of the issues, and I used my cynicism about the
competence and expertise of politicians and experts to offset what they
said into some semblance of a 'probable truth'.

I expect experts to be in many cases at least partially wrong., They
cant know, even if they know better. I expect politicians to lie.

On the other hand if I routinely believed the doctors were lying to me,
I think I would be dead already. Doctors, mostly tell the truth. Why
not? I have to trust them . They are not paid to lie, and they gain
nothing by it.

And they told me the crisis was real. People were dying of Covid. In
the ward at the back. 70 a week.

We can argue about the policy, we may argue about the efficacy or
otherwise of vaccines, but the facts as I understand them to be,were not
for me what the BBC said, it was that back then in that spring, 70
people a month were dying of Covid, Papworth was closed to all but
emergency cases, and now they are not. And that deaths from vaccine side
effects are *not* running at 70 per month in my local hospital.

We cant know the actual truth. Its not that people are hiding it from
you, its that they simply do not themselves know.

Life is like that. We make inadequate decisions based on insufficient
data, and we muddle through, or we die.

Your mistake is to *believe* in one side or the other.

I didn't. I asked around people who actually knew more, and based my
assumptions on that,. knowing full well that they were assumptions. Well
I've been living on borrowed time for years anyway, I roll the dice and
try to make decisions based on best probabilities.

I discovered that this is in fact taught as combat tactics in the
British Army. How to make decisions in the fog of war.

Define your objectives. In this case personal survival
Do your reconnaissance and base your initial plan on what you find, not
on what you believe to be the case. And on your available resources. I
underwent lockdown and vaccines. I survived.

Then implement your battle plan, but be prepared to withdraw from
engagement or modify it the moment it becomes clear it wasn't the best
plan. I didn't stay out of hospital, because i needed emergency
treatment. The hospital was *empty*. But I survived, though I might have
caught some lung infection. My lungs are shot anyway. That's what I will
die of, ultimately. Probably.

I didn't stay at home and get food delivered. I went to the supermarket.
Sometimes I got a chest infection afterwards. But it was better for my
mental state to at leats talk to someone than sit alone and talk to no
one. I survived.

I didn't believe in masks but wore them anyway. If it makes people feel
better, it cost me nothing.

I believed on balance that the risks of vaccination were outweighed by
the benefits. I got them all. Made made me feel ill. I've had since
covid, at least three COVID vaccinations - lost count - three influenza
shots, two pneumonia shots... two heart attacks...mild, pleurisy, and
now apparently I have leukemia. And COPD. Of course.

The only one I blame on Covid was the pleurisy, as I was in hospital for
kidney stones and they kept the windows open and I froze almost to
death, came home and great, went down with pleurisy.

On 14/02/2024 11:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:37:48 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at that
>> point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative they think
>> the plebs will understand.
>
> It has to be one that *they* all understand *and* think they can
> sell to their voters.
>

Indeed so.

But the staggering lack of STEM graduates in politics has to be allowed
for. They are all ArtStudents™ to a man. And they treat the rest of us
as if we were, too.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On 13/02/2024 16:34, Richard Falken wrote:
> Re: Re: Google Groups
> By: The Natural Philosopher to TimS on Tue Feb 13 2024 09:25 am
>
> > In the UK a handgun *of any sort* is illegal outside of competition use,
> > the police, or the military, it having been deemed that their *only*
> > valid use is killing people.
> >
>
> This irks me the wrong way because if you have a weapon licensed as a sporting
> gun, and a truck runs a cow over in your village, you cannot put the dying cow
> down humanely because you get charged with unlawful weapon posesion (ie. you
> have a non-sporting gun now, and haven't got a non-sporting gun license).
>

The police have guns, and many vets will have a captive bolt pistol for
precisely that purpose.

In short whilst not arguing against your position in general, that is in
fact a straw man.

I do know I was faced with a rabbit dying of myxomatosis. I had nothing
but a stick and a boot, so I rolled it into a deep puddle and drowned it.

Was that the 'humane' thing to do? If I had my air rifle with me I would
have done a head shot. That works.

> And then they also charge you with animal cruelty on top of that.
>
> Fuck Spain.
>
Well yes, they are a peculiar people, when all is said and done, but
then so are the Scots. One is just more used to them.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 13/02/2024 16:58, Richard Falken wrote:
> Re: Re: Google Groups
> By: TimS to tnp@invalid.invalid on Tue Feb 13 2024 10:54 pm
>
> > I know that. But instead of being warmongers they might have merely been
> > strong leaders for their countries. Unluckily for the world, they *are/were*
> > warmongers, when there was no need. And *that* is what we have to guard
> > against and prepare for.
>
> I don't think Xi is such a big warmonger since he is taking heavy profits from
> the opposite approach - opening to trade and sending Chinesse workforce to
> develop poor countries to bring them into the Chinesse sphere of influence. I
> think his position regarding Taiwan is macho posturing. Putin has also a
> non-weak (I won't say "strong") case that the NATO is making open advances
> torward Russian interests and that Russian efforts to collaborate with NATO
> against common enemies have not been welcome.
>

I think a bit more than that. Up to a point, I think your analysis is
fair enough, BUT Chinas economy is in deep shit, and when your economy
is in deeps shit having a war is handy to kill all your young people who
want a better life you can't offer them, and justify draconian measures
of control.

The point of killing a whole generations males is that it makes room for
the next one...

And China wants Taiwan because it doesn't have really good chip fab of
its own. Not enough for large scale drone production, and it looks like
world war V (We are already in IV, and III happened from 1950-1990) will
be heavily microchip based.

It has been noted that Russia, having nothing but oil money to purchase
Western politicians and governments and Western tech, is up shit creek
if it's cut off from those.

China is vulnerable militarily and economically. in a similar way to
Japan in 1940.

A roll of the dice might be a 'nothing to lose but a population we dont
want anyway' move

And in the West there is a massive debt crisis that could be solved if
all the people who are owed money were on the other side of a neat
little 'moral war'

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 14/02/2024 12:58, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uqia43$2klrs$2@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/02/2024 10:28, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> In article <uqhtnu$2ijm2$2@dont-email.me>,
>>> mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/02/2024 21:32, Bob Latham wrote:
>>>>> The
>>>>> manufacturers have admitted that no testing on transmission was done.
>>>
>>>> Straw-man. Some manufacturers said that they did no testing on
>>>> transmission as they were not required to do such testing for
>>>> approval. They had plenty of other tests to perform for approval
>>>> which were performed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes that would be fine but authorities the world over made claims
>>> you don't get covid if you're vaccinated. then had to make video
>>> statements insisting they never said any such thing.
>
>> You keep saying that. I don't recall any in my own experience.
>
> I can't drop my hand on the video showing a host of world leaders
> doing this at the moment, it may not still be available.
>
> As it happened last night on GB News this came up. I wasn't watching
> it but it's linked from my twitter feed.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-sKFXgiBk
>
> Here Nigel Farage confirms the same thing. Look around 46.00 minutes
> mark.
>

I didn't see him engaged in anything of the sort. Please indicate at
what minute he did so.

>
>> Didn't Donald Trump tell you to drink bleach or something?
>
> Don't be silly.

https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/13/fact-check-did-trump-tell-people-to-drink-bleach-to-kill-coronavirus/113754708/

>
>> And when did you start to believe in 'authorities' unquestioningly
>> anyway?
>
>> I gave up on that at the age of around 7...
>
> Exactly my point, the media and leaders as always LIED.
>

That is not the same thing. It is your lack of questioning that bothers
me. You jump to conclusions. I prefer to take a moire measured approach
and arrive at 'as far as I know' and not claim it as ultimate truth.

> Bob.
>

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 13/02/2024 15:32, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <uqg11c$24ou7$1@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Vaccinations certainly did work,
>
> Well I'm very sure they do not prevent transmission.
>
> Bob.
>
I am perfectly sure they reduced it, and reduced the effects of the disease.

Again. boolean thinking is not the way to go here.

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:23:38 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/02/2024 11:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:37:48 +0000
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at that
> >> point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative they think
> >> the plebs will understand.
> >
> > It has to be one that *they* all understand *and* think they can
> > sell to their voters.
> >
>
> Indeed so.
>
> But the staggering lack of STEM graduates in politics has to be allowed
> for. They are all ArtStudents™ to a man. And they treat the rest

I think you are being unfair to ArtStudents™ these folks tended to
study things like economics and politics, nothing as tangible and sane as
art.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope

On 14/02/2024 14:27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:23:38 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/02/2024 11:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 10:37:48 +0000
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at that
>>>> point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative they think
>>>> the plebs will understand.
>>>
>>> It has to be one that *they* all understand *and* think they can
>>> sell to their voters.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed so.
>>
>> But the staggering lack of STEM graduates in politics has to be allowed
>> for. They are all ArtStudents™ to a man. And they treat the rest
>
> I think you are being unfair to ArtStudents™ these folks tended to
> study things like economics and politics, nothing as tangible and sane as
> art.
>
When we were engineering students, there were only engineers and art
students. It was a standing joke.

It's a bit like "all science is physics, or stamp collecting".

You know what is meant.

Engineers dealt with the real world only, and if it works, that's all
that matters.

Art students deal with *ideas about the world* and never seem to care
whether anything works or not so long as it looks good and sounds good.

Politicians are there to influence peoples opinions. They do not these
days actually run anything, and if they try the result is a normally
complete cockup.

Their arrogance comes from the fact that indeed, a lot of people do
really believe them. Their insecurity comes from the fact that a heck of
a lot routinely don't believe a word they say.

If I learnt anything canvassing for UKIP, it was the massive contempt
and resentment that the ordinary man felt for the government, especially
the EU.

"If you want a foreigner for a neighbour, vote Liberal Democrat, Tory or
Labour"

Clearly - gasp - xenophobic, but hey, people are entitled to their
opinions aren't they?
Labour seems entitled to basically blame Jews for everything, cheered on
by the Muslim diaspora.

Look. its all about simple narratives for simple people, but
surprisingly its the simplest people - the working class - who seem not
to be listening any more.
It is in fact the educated middle classes who are in thrall to all this
bullshit.

My thesis is that by and large people have with the assistance of the
mass media and the politicians completely lost touch with reality. It
doesn't help that they live in cities too, which are 100% artificial
environments. The only people who have any oidea about reality are the
people who routinely have to deal with it. Car mechanics, drain
unblockers, bricklayers, midwives etc.

The rest live in cloud cuckoo land manipulating abstract concepts as if
they were reality.

Fucking art students.

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

In article <uqigcf$2lnhd$2@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 12:58, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <uqia43$2klrs$2@dont-email.me>,
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 14/02/2024 10:28, Bob Latham wrote:
> >>
> > As it happened last night on GB News this came up. I wasn't
> > watching it but it's linked from my twitter feed.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-sKFXgiBk
> >
> > Here Nigel Farage confirms the same thing. Look around 46.00
> > minutes mark.
> >

> I didn't see him engaged in anything of the sort. Please indicate
> at what minute he did so.

Oh so I'm a liar now. Go and look properly.

I've just checked again, as I said above ~46.00 mins directly after
Richard Tice announces his covid vaccine inquiry policy because he's
concerned.

> >> Didn't Donald Trump tell you to drink bleach or something?
> >
> > Don't be silly.

> https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/13/fact-check-did-trump-tell-people-to-drink-bleach-to-kill-coronavirus/113754708/

Oh I remember it being said at the time. But only Trump haters and
the thick would take it as literal. Trump is many things I dislike
but a moron isn't one of them.

> >> And when did you start to believe in 'authorities'
> >> unquestioningly anyway?
> >
> >> I gave up on that at the age of around 7...
> >
> > Exactly my point, the media and leaders as always LIED.

> That is not the same thing. It is your lack of questioning that
> bothers me.

You do know you argue like socialists don't you. Play the man not the
ball. A different opinion means opposition is stupid or making a
mistake you've not made.

> You jump to conclusions.

My fault of course.

> I prefer to take a moire measured approach and arrive at 'as far as
> I know' and not claim it as ultimate truth.

My texts on this have been full of I don't knows and I'm not sure.
There are only a few things I'm sure about.

I'm certain for example that the drive to push this experimental
vaccine into primary school children who are in no danger from covid
at all was insane. Especially when we had NO long term safety data.

You appear to be a victim of the lying media, try reading something
not MSM vetted.

Bob.

In article <uqigcf$2lnhd$2@dont-email.me>,
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 12:58, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <uqia43$2klrs$2@dont-email.me>,
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 14/02/2024 10:28, Bob Latham wrote:
> >>
> > As it happened last night on GB News this came up. I wasn't
> > watching it but it's linked from my twitter feed.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-sKFXgiBk
> >
> > Here Nigel Farage confirms the same thing. Look around 46.00
> > minutes mark.
> >

> I didn't see him engaged in anything of the sort. Please indicate
> at what minute he did so.

Oh so I'm a liar now. Go and look properly.

I've just checked again, as I said above ~46.00 mins directly after
Richard Tice announces his covid vaccine inquiry policy because he's
concerned.

> >> Didn't Donald Trump tell you to drink bleach or something?
> >
> > Don't be silly.

> https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/13/fact-check-did-trump-tell-people-to-drink-bleach-to-kill-coronavirus/113754708/

Oh I remember it being said at the time. But only Trump haters and
the thick would take it as literal. Trump is many things I dislike
but a moron isn't one of them.

> >> And when did you start to believe in 'authorities'
> >> unquestioningly anyway?
> >
> >> I gave up on that at the age of around 7...
> >
> > Exactly my point, the media and leaders as always LIED.

> That is not the same thing. It is your lack of questioning that
> bothers me.

You do know you argue like socialists don't you. Play the man not the
ball. A different opinion means opposition is stupid or making a
mistake you've not made.

> You jump to conclusions.

My fault of course.

> I prefer to take a moire measured approach and arrive at 'as far as
> I know' and not claim it as ultimate truth.

My texts on this have been full of I don't knows and I'm not sure.
There are only a few things I'm sure about.

I'm certain for example that the drive to push this experimental
vaccine into primary school children who are in no danger from covid
at all was insane. Especially when we had NO long term safety data.

You appear to be a victim of the lying media, try reading something
not MSM vetted.

Bob.

On 14 Feb 2024 at 10:24:07 GMT, "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <l32btrFbpo9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> TimS <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 13 Feb 2024 at 21:32:57 GMT, "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> The vaccines don't stop you getting infected, absolute fact !!
>>>
>>> I've seen no evidence the vaccines improve your recovery.
>>> It *may* do but I've seen zero evidence only conjecture and wishful
>>> thinking by the guilty.
>>>
>>> I've seen no evidence that it reduces transmission at all. The
>>> manufacturers have admitted that no testing on transmission was done.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you've forgotten , the virus mutated to a much milder forms
>>> again and again, Alpha, Beta, Delta, Omicron.
>
>> Look, we know all this. Why d'ye keep trotting it out as if it's
>> profound in some fashion?
>
> I spoke of it in one post, never before. Your comment that I'm
> trotting it out suggests you don't like the truth.

You've gone on about transmission in several posts.

>> a) vaccines prime your immune system. So if you do get it, covid
>> won't be as bad as it would otherwise have been.
>
> I've had plenty of vaccinations in my life I'm not anti-vax. I had 3
> covid jabs. However, the experimental vaccine has done damage to a
> lot of people and I've not seen any data which proves it did anything
> good. It may have done but I've not seen it.

What experimental vaccine?

--
Tim

On 14 Feb 2024 at 10:53:26 GMT, "Bob Latham" <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

>> Why would you test transmission, for a vaccine? It would never
>> occur to me for a moment to imagine that a vaccine would affect
>> transmission.
>
> Because that was the claim at the time. Getting vaccinated prevents
> you getting covid. Do I really have to spend time finding the famous
> video of this?

That's the simple-minded narrative for simple-minded people, who make up most
of the population, and as TNP points out, appear to want black-and-white
answers in situations where no such response is possible.

If I'd seen this viedo of which you speak, I would have automatically
discounted it. If you saw that, believed it, and then <gasp> discovered it
wasn't true, then the more fool you.

--
Tim

On 2024-02-14, Bob Latham <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> or at any rate only have a low-grade infection.
>
> I don't think I've seen that before covid.

Really. Never had the flu jab? Doesn't stop you getting it but it
seriously lowers the chances of you needing hospitalisation.

Before COVID vaccinations, intensive care units were full - now after
vaccinations there are a lot less Covid cases needing ICU.

>> > They *may* help if you get infected not seen enough data.
>> > Vaccines have caused many people serious injury.
>
>> Here you are exaggerating.
>
> I don't think so. I know Main Stream Media is suppressing this
> massively and Parliament will not listen or debate it. It's like
> they're frightened of a can of worms. However, more and more mps are
> listening.

I really think you are anti-vax! Your comments just scream it.

As you say waste of time discussing it, and it matters not a jot what
a.n.other random idiot on usenet says.