I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?

thanks,
Joerg

In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
<j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:

> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?

IANAL, but very probably not. Look at the terms and conditions which
came with the listings.

> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?

VSI has nothing to do with it, because they have no legal rights to VAX
stuff.

Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.

Some of that VAX source code still lives on in VSI VMS, so in that sense
VSI might be interested in your potential activities. I don't know if
they can legally prevent you from publishing them, but if you want to
help "the community" it would be a good idea not to annoy the current
owner of VMS.

Jörg,

the cover letter says this (example from OpenVMS VAXV6.1 Listings Kit):

Product Licensing

"The compact disc kit (QB kit) includes the license required to view these files on a standalone system or a VAXcluster system. If you want to make these files available to another system (possibly at a remote site), you will need to purchase another kit. (...)

Please note that a source license agreement must be signed for all kits. Contact your Digital representative for more information."

Volker.

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
Seems like the same question as for all the stuff on bitsavers.

You could send it to them, and leave it up to them to figure out making
it publicly available.

As well as I know, bitsavers hasn't been sued for anything on the site.

Volker,
> the cover letter says this (example from OpenVMS VAXV6.1 Listings Kit):
>
> Product Licensing
>
> "The compact disc kit (QB kit) includes the license required to view these files on a standalone system or a VAXcluster system. If you want to make these files available to another system (possibly at a remote site), you will need to purchase another kit. (...)
>
> Please note that a source license agreement must be signed for all kits. Contact your Digital representative for more information."
>
> Volker.
Thanks.
I haven't seen the Microfiche license yet, but in contrast to compact
disk a fiche-set can not be bound to specific VAX-hardware.
So they will have another text there, probably forbidding sharing,
selling, copy or print-out?

Jörg

On 12/09/21 09:14, gah4 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>
> Seems like the same question as for all the stuff on bitsavers.
>
> You could send it to them, and leave it up to them to figure out making
> it publicly available.
>
> As well as I know, bitsavers hasn't been sued for anything on the site.

It may be interesting to many for historical reasons and the sources
were never enough to build a working systems, so there is perhaps some
fair use argument to publish.

May not be strictly correct, but you could anonymously upload to a site
that publishes anyway. There are plenty of sites around like that and
sometime you just have to do what needs to be done...

Chris

On 12/9/21 2:13 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
> <j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:
>
>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>
> IANAL, but very probably not. Look at the terms and conditions which
> came with the listings.

I expect he got them somewhere like eBay and they didn't come with
a license or anything beyond the listings themselves.

>
>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>
> VSI has nothing to do with it, because they have no legal rights to VAX
> stuff.

I don't think that is true. I believe VSI has license to all of it
and only made the (proper?) business decision to not get involved with
anything VAX.

>
> Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.

That is, actually, quite true although many people (including some
here, based on comments I have seen) refuse to accept it.

>
> Some of that VAX source code still lives on in VSI VMS, so in that sense
> VSI might be interested in your potential activities. I don't know if
> they can legally prevent you from publishing them, but if you want to
> help "the community" it would be a good idea not to annoy the current
> owner of VMS.
>

They are probably of very limited value but release of them would
undoubtedly violate someone's IP rights.

bill

On 12/9/21 5:33 AM, chris wrote:
> On 12/09/21 09:14, gah4 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
>>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>>
>> Seems like the same question as for all the stuff on bitsavers.
>>
>> You could send it to them, and leave it up to them to figure out making
>> it publicly available.
>>
>> As well as I know, bitsavers hasn't been sued for anything on the site.
>
> It may be interesting to many for historical reasons and the sources
> were never enough to build a working systems, so there is perhaps some
> fair use argument to publish.
>
> May not be strictly correct, but you could anonymously upload to a site
> that publishes anyway. There are plenty of sites around like that and
> sometime you just have to do what needs to be done...
>

See my previous comment in this thread. :-)

bill

On 12/9/2021 12:31 AM, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?

When it comes to copyright and license to redistribute then the
rules are pretty clear: you only have permission to redistribute
if you have a license that explicit grant you that right. Default
is no right.

Based on your question, then you do not have such a license.

Given that DEC sold those listings for money back then - it
also seems unlikely that the associated license would grant
redistribution rights.

Arne

On Do 09 Dez 2021 at 08:22, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/9/21 2:13 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
>> <j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:
>> Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.
>
> That is, actually, quite true although many people (including some
> here, based on comments I have seen) refuse to accept it.

I think that very much depends on where you are located, under which
jurisdiction.

'Andreas

On 12/9/2021 9:27 AM, Andreas Eder wrote:
> On Do 09 Dez 2021 at 08:22, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/9/21 2:13 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
>>> <j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:
>>> Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.
>>
>> That is, actually, quite true although many people (including some
>> here, based on comments I have seen) refuse to accept it.
>
> I think that very much depends on where you are located, under which
> jurisdiction.

True.

But it does not exist in places like the US and EU.

(the closest is that EU allows "cultural heritage institutions"
to use registered orphan work of books, film and music)

But there are around 200 countries in the world and some may have
a more relaxed attitude towards copyright.

Arne

On 12/9/2021 8:22 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/9/21 2:13 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
>> <j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:
>>
>>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>>
>> IANAL, but very probably not. Look at the terms and conditions which
>> came with the listings.
>
> I expect he got them somewhere like eBay and they didn't come with
> a license or anything beyond the listings themselves.
>
>>
>>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>>
>> VSI has nothing to do with it, because they have no legal rights to VAX
>> stuff.
>
> I don't think that is true. I believe VSI has license to all of it
> and only made the (proper?) business decision to not get involved with
> anything VAX.
>
>>
>> Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.
>
> That is, actually, quite true although many people (including some
> here, based on comments I have seen) refuse to accept it.
>
>>
>> Some of that VAX source code still lives on in VSI VMS, so in that sense
>> VSI might be interested in your potential activities. I don't know if
>> they can legally prevent you from publishing them, but if you want to
>> help "the community" it would be a good idea not to annoy the current
>> owner of VMS.
>>
>
> They are probably of very limited value but release of them would
> undoubtedly violate someone's IP rights.
>
> bill
>
>

STOP USING MY WHEEL !!!!!!!!!

It is not abandoned! Stop it I say!

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2021-12-09, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 12/9/2021 12:31 AM, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>
> When it comes to copyright and license to redistribute then the
> rules are pretty clear: you only have permission to redistribute
> if you have a license that explicit grant you that right. Default
> is no right.
>

And in case anyone wants a more modern example, this is exactly how
the GPL is able to be enforced.

Copyright means you don't have the right to redistribute GPL software
unless you agree to the terms of the GPL licence.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-09, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> They are probably of very limited value but release of them would
> undoubtedly violate someone's IP rights.
>

Within a month, VAX/VMS will start on the same journey to unusable
history that the PDP-11 DEC operating systems started long ago.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/9/21 9:47 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/9/2021 9:27 AM, Andreas Eder wrote:
>> On Do 09 Dez 2021 at 08:22, Bill Gunshannon
>> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/9/21 2:13 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article <sos4b8$jrb$1@inf1.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, Joerg Hoppe
>>>> <j_hoppe@t-online.de> writes:
>>>> Legally, there is no such thing as abandonware.
>>>
>>> That is, actually, quite true although many people (including some
>>> here, based on comments I have seen) refuse to accept it.
>>
>> I think that very much depends on where you are located, under which
>> jurisdiction.
>
> True.
>
> But it does not exist in places like the US and EU.
>
> (the closest is that EU allows "cultural heritage institutions"
> to use registered orphan work of books, film and music)
>
> But there are around 200 countries in the world and some may have
> a more relaxed attitude towards copyright.
>

That's true. I am sure if you could find a website in
Somalia they would be glad to host content that was
illegal in the civilized world. :-)

bill

On 12/9/21 1:42 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-09, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> They are probably of very limited value but release of them would
>> undoubtedly violate someone's IP rights.
>>
>
> Within a month, VAX/VMS will start on the same journey to unusable
> history that the PDP-11 DEC operating systems started long ago.
>

And your point?

bill

On 2021-12-09, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/9/21 1:42 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-12-09, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> They are probably of very limited value but release of them would
>>> undoubtedly violate someone's IP rights.
>>>
>>
>> Within a month, VAX/VMS will start on the same journey to unusable
>> history that the PDP-11 DEC operating systems started long ago.
>>
>
> And your point?
>

The point is that I agree with you.

The reason the PDP-11 DEC OS options are unusable is precisely because
they _are_ still under copyright and have a owner even after all this time.

That means exactly the same applies to anything associated with VAX/VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 2:33:06 AM UTC-8, chris wrote:

> > On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
> >> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
> >> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
> >> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
> >> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?

(snip)
> It may be interesting to many for historical reasons and the sources
> were never enough to build a working systems, so there is perhaps some
> fair use argument to publish.

I don't know about DEC, but IBM has some links to old manuals and
such on bitsavers. It seems that they didn't keep a lot of old stuff,
or just forgot where it was, and are happy to have it there.

More current manuals are on IBM's own site for download.

On 2021-12-09, gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 2:33:06 AM UTC-8, chris wrote:
>
>> > On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
>> >> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>> >> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>> >> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>> >> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>
> (snip)
>> It may be interesting to many for historical reasons and the sources
>> were never enough to build a working systems, so there is perhaps some
>> fair use argument to publish.
>
> I don't know about DEC, but IBM has some links to old manuals and
> such on bitsavers. It seems that they didn't keep a lot of old stuff,
> or just forgot where it was, and are happy to have it there.
>
> More current manuals are on IBM's own site for download.

The manuals situation is rather interesting.

The software situation is very clear - you can't redistribute it
except under the terms of the licence it was sold to you under,
which for normal commercial software means you can't redistribute
at all.

However, does the same apply to normal old-style paper documentation ?

Is normal documentation sold under a licence which says you can't
make a copy of it and then pass on the copy to someone else ?

I'm talking about normal documentation here, not documentation
supplied to you under a NDA or similar construct (for example,
the specification for a restricted protocol).

I don't remember ever having to sign a contract that says as such
for normal old-style paper documentation so I don't know if such
restrictions are implicit under normal copyright law or whether
the restrictions simply don't exist.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

In article <sovmt3$lmo$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:

> The software situation is very clear - you can't redistribute it
> except under the terms of the licence it was sold to you under,
> which for normal commercial software means you can't redistribute
> at all.
>
> However, does the same apply to normal old-style paper documentation ?
>
> Is normal documentation sold under a licence which says you can't
> make a copy of it and then pass on the copy to someone else ?
>
> I'm talking about normal documentation here, not documentation
> supplied to you under a NDA or similar construct (for example,
> the specification for a restricted protocol).
>
> I don't remember ever having to sign a contract that says as such
> for normal old-style paper documentation so I don't know if such
> restrictions are implicit under normal copyright law or whether
> the restrictions simply don't exist.

Almost all books and so on have something like "All rights reserved. No
portion of this document may be reproduced in any form without prior
written permission from the publisher."

There are exceptions for quoting short portions for criticism, fair use,
and so on.

On 12/09/21 13:23, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/9/21 5:33 AM, chris wrote:
>> On 12/09/21 09:14, gah4 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 9:40:07 PM UTC-8, Joerg Hoppe wrote:
>>>> I digitized a pack of VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listings
>>>> AH-BT13A-SE and AH-EF71A-SE, from micro fiche to PDF.
>>>> Question is now: can I publish to the community or individuals?
>>>> What is the license status for this old stuff (around 1985), VSI ?
>>>
>>> Seems like the same question as for all the stuff on bitsavers.
>>>
>>> You could send it to them, and leave it up to them to figure out making
>>> it publicly available.
>>>
>>> As well as I know, bitsavers hasn't been sued for anything on the site.
>>
>> It may be interesting to many for historical reasons and the sources
>> were never enough to build a working systems, so there is perhaps some
>> fair use argument to publish.
>>
>> May not be strictly correct, but you could anonymously upload to a site
>> that publishes anyway. There are plenty of sites around like that and
>> sometime you just have to do what needs to be done...
>>
>
> See my previous comment in this thread. :-)
>
> bill
>
>

If you are a developer, you should try to walk the walk in terms
of ethics and try to do the right thing. In the real world though,
people will do whatever needs to be done to find a solution if there
seems to b an insurmountable obstacle.

The other point is, do the original owners really care enough, or
even at all, when so much licensed software is out there and is
obsolete and no longer sold ?. Similar case here, where I was trying
find detail on the write boot block code for early SunOs for historical
purposes. Found the complete source cd online and was able to complete
the task. No profit involved, other than keeping some old machines
alive.

Ethical dilemmas everywhere in life and we all have to make our
own choices...

Chris

On 12/10/2021 10:46 AM, chris wrote:

> The other point is, do the original owners really care enough, or
> even at all, when so much licensed software is out there and is
> obsolete and no longer sold ?.

The answer to that question is not relevant as a point of law.

> Ethical dilemmas everywhere in life and we all have to make our
> own choices...
There is no "ethical dilemma" here. The ownership is not in question,
nor is there any "life-or-death" situation at hand.

You can ignore that, but that's not an ethical dilemma.

--

-- Rob

On 12/10/2021 10:46 AM, chris wrote:

> If you are a developer, you should try to walk the walk in terms
> of ethics and try to do the right thing.

I'd agree 100%.

> In the real world though,
> people will do whatever needs to be done to find a solution if there
> seems to b an insurmountable obstacle.

Again, I agree.

> The other point is, do the original owners really care enough, or
> even at all, when so much licensed software is out there and is
> obsolete and no longer sold ?. Similar case here, where I was trying
> find detail on the write boot block code for early SunOs for historical
> purposes. Found the complete source cd online and was able to complete
> the task. No profit involved, other than keeping some old machines
> alive.
>
> Ethical dilemmas everywhere in life and we all have to make our
> own choices...

If one is willing to pay for something, but there is no one available to pay,
than what? Either one does without, or, one does whatever is necessary. While
there may be those who feel I should just do without, I do not agree with them.

Case in point. We at Consolidated Data insist that all our customers have
support for their commercial use VMS systems. That is our ethics. However,
should the time come when there is nobody to pay for such support, and the
license terminates, and VMS stops working, then I will bypass the licensing to
keep my customer in business. That is my ethics.

For those who think we should just let our customers roll over and die, I have
only one comment.

STOP USING MY WHEEL, IT IS NOT FREEWARE, IT IS NOT ABANDONED!

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2021-12-10, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>
> Almost all books and so on have something like "All rights reserved. No
> portion of this document may be reproduced in any form without prior
> written permission from the publisher."
>

Thanks Phillip. I had forgotten about that.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-10, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Case in point. We at Consolidated Data insist that all our customers have
> support for their commercial use VMS systems. That is our ethics. However,
> should the time come when there is nobody to pay for such support, and the
> license terminates, and VMS stops working, then I will bypass the licensing to
> keep my customer in business. That is my ethics.
>

Even ignoring the legal issues with that (and you know my position in
this general area :-)), do you have the knowledge needed to actually
do this bypass ?

If you don't, where do you intend on getting this knowledge from ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.