On 12/14/21 12:11 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 10:29 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 10:03 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 9:02 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/13/21 9:34 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/13/2021 3:44 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/13/21 1:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> And it has thrived because of the value it provides - not because
>>>>>>> universities pushed it. The last 10-20 years Computer Science
>>>>>>> has pushed FP not OOP. But true FP has never really caught on
>>>>>>> in the industry. Most OOP languages got a few FP features and
>>>>>>> they are used for convenience, but not enough to be true FP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sadly, I think OOP is going to be here a long time.  I am just
>>>>>> glad the people working where it is not a good fit have resisted
>>>>>> it.  I still do COBOL.  Mostly just for fun, but it is still
>>>>>> interesting.  You should go over to Rosetta Code and see all the
>>>>>> things COBOL does that aren't even in its wheelhouse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cobol was intended as a business application language but it is
>>>>> enough general purpose to that almost everything can be done
>>>>> in it.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly.  I  have done some COBOL stuff for Rosetta Code and
>>>> it's really fun.  May do another one today.  Of course, I also
>>>> do DIBOL-11, MACRO-11, Ratfor and Basic09.  And, I am thinking
>>>> of doing some Logo (I have gotten back into Logo because my 8
>>>> year old grandson wants to learn "coding" and Logo is an ideal
>>>> language for teaching the basics to someone his age).  If there
>>>> was an available PL/I compiler I would probably do a bunch in
>>>> that, too.  The fun of being a dinosaur.
>>>
>>> Kednos had PL/I for VAX and Alpha and a hobbyist program.
>>
>> Kednos is gone as far as I know.  And they didn't just release
>> the compiler when they left.  Wonder what Dave things of that?
>
> Tell me how much you're going to think of computers when you're dying?
> Tom has left the building, but I've got to wonder, if he had the time
> would he have gifted his product to the rest of us.  Dave sure would do
> so.  That's what Dave "thinks" (not things) of that.

sic

>
>>> Maybe you can get a kit and a license - I think it was said
>>> that even though the business is closed then a hobbyist
>>> license could still be issued.
>>
>> And, that also assumes one has a usable VMS system.  Other than my
>> VAX which is not going to be running much longer I have had very
>> little luck getting an Alpha version up as I have no hardware and
>> the emulators (at least the free ones) haven't worked well for me.
>
> Bullshit!  At one time I offered you an Alpha.  You couldn't be bothered.

Not a matter of can't be bothered, more can't afford even free stuff
any more. The last Alpha I had was PC sized Deskside pedestal. It
weighed almost 100 pounds. Sturdy is nice, but, luckily, I didn't
have to pay the shipping on that as it was a donation from HP.
See my last posting. Very lean Christmas this year and probably
for the foreseeable future.

bill

On 12/14/21 12:16 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <sp8itv$nn5$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>> I guess it's useless.  There are some, (like those against Cobol),
>>> who will
>>> never admit that a vendor has a moral, if not legal, responsibility
>>> to customers.
>>
>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>> illegal.  No more, no less.
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?

I wish the local doctors were that good. When I can I travel 75 miles
to see an Army doctor. Sadly, most people don't understand why.

>
>> Moral responsibility?  Who gets to define "moral"?  That open's
>> Pandora's box.
>
> No, it's called "do the right thing".

But, in this case it's your right thing vs. the other guys right thing.
Everything has to be paid for at some point. The cost of the guarantee
you want would likely make the products initial cost unmarketable.

bill

In article <spaji6$671$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
<davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <sp8itv$nn5$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> >
> >> I guess it's useless. There are some, (like those against Cobol), who will
> >> never admit that a vendor has a moral, if not legal, responsibility to customers.
> >
> > A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
> > illegal. No more, no less.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?

The contract with my physicians specify that they will do everything
medically possible to improve my condition. I have no gripe with that.

> > Moral responsibility? Who gets to define "moral"? That open's
> > Pandora's box.
>
> No, it's called "do the right thing".

Which can be, and is, used to justify all sorts of things.

In article <spalql$6uf$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply))
writes:

> In article <spaji6$671$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
> > On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > > In article <sp8itv$nn5$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> > > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> I guess it's useless. There are some, (like those against Cobol), who will
> > >> never admit that a vendor has a moral, if not legal, responsibility to customers.
> > >
> > > A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
> > > illegal. No more, no less.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>
> The contract with my physicians specify that they will do everything
> medically possible to improve my condition. I have no gripe with that.
>
> > > Moral responsibility? Who gets to define "moral"? That open's
> > > Pandora's box.
> >
> > No, it's called "do the right thing".
>
> Which can be, and is, used to justify all sorts of things.

Of course, there are times when one should do the right thing even if it
is illegal, mostly when the regime which made it illegal is itself
illegal or illegitimate. OK to assassinate Hitler? Sure (at least if
one can be reasonably sure that it won't make matters worse.)

But running software illegally, for whatever reason, is not one of them.

On 12/14/2021 12:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/14/21 10:49 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> VMS PL/I certainly requires VMS.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Emulator has worked for me, but I believe Alpha's can be had relative
>> cheap.
>
> In most cases it costs more to ship one than the whole box is worth.
> Sadly, I have been one of those fixed income retirees you keep hearing
> about for several years now.  And inflation is making it even harder
> to make do.  Afraid there is no spare money for computer hobbies any
> more.  With the price of gas I can't even afford to make road trips
> for FTGH gear any more.  :-)
>
>> But then you need  to track down the license.
>
> VSI License is easy to come by.  I have one for the emulators I have
> been trying to get running.

It was the PL/I license I was thinking about,

>>> But I may look into that. Haven't done any serious PL/I for
>>> 40 years but it was fun when I did.
>>
>> There are lots of rare languages to look at.
>>
>> GNU Modula-2 runs great on Linux.
>
> I was never impressed with Modula.  Not even when it got all
> the way up to 2.  :-)

I think Modula-2 was a very nice language.

>>>> Or you could give http://www.iron-spring.com/ a try on
>>>> Linux.
>>>
>>> Didn't know about this but a quick look shows  a beta that
>>> is, at least so far, incomplete.  But then, it's free and
>>> you get what you pay for.
>>
>> Too bad that Raincode only offer their Cobol compiler for
>> free and not their PL/I compiler.
>
> OK, I guess, if you want to do Windows.  :-)

They do have a Linux version too.

Arne

On 12/14/21 1:02 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 12:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 10:49 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> VMS PL/I certainly requires VMS.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Emulator has worked for me, but I believe Alpha's can be had relative
>>> cheap.
>>
>> In most cases it costs more to ship one than the whole box is worth.
>> Sadly, I have been one of those fixed income retirees you keep hearing
>> about for several years now.  And inflation is making it even harder
>> to make do.  Afraid there is no spare money for computer hobbies any
>> more.  With the price of gas I can't even afford to make road trips
>> for FTGH gear any more.  :-)
>>
>>> But then you need  to track down the license.
>>
>> VSI License is easy to come by.  I have one for the emulators I have
>> been trying to get running.
>
> It was the PL/I license I was thinking about,

Oh, I thought the previous post said hobbyist licenses for the
Kednos PL/I compiler were still available.

>
>>>> But I may look into that. Haven't done any serious PL/I for
>>>> 40 years but it was fun when I did.
>>>
>>> There are lots of rare languages to look at.
>>>
>>> GNU Modula-2 runs great on Linux.
>>
>> I was never impressed with Modula.  Not even when it got all
>> the way up to 2.  :-)
>
> I think Modula-2 was a very nice language.

To each his own. I saw it as an attempt to get people to stop
using Pascal for the things it was never intended to for. And
then it started to grow.

>
>>>>> Or you could give http://www.iron-spring.com/ a try on
>>>>> Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Didn't know about this but a quick look shows  a beta that
>>>> is, at least so far, incomplete.  But then, it's free and
>>>> you get what you pay for.
>>>
>>> Too bad that Raincode only offer their Cobol compiler for
>>> free and not their PL/I compiler.
>>
>> OK, I guess, if you want to do Windows.  :-)
>
> They do have a Linux version too.

I must have missed that in my quick perusal of their web page. I
thought they said they were for .NET.

bill

On 12/14/2021 1:22 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/14/21 1:02 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 12:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/14/21 10:49 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> VMS PL/I certainly requires VMS.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Emulator has worked for me, but I believe Alpha's can be had relative
>>>> cheap.
>>>
>>> In most cases it costs more to ship one than the whole box is worth.
>>> Sadly, I have been one of those fixed income retirees you keep hearing
>>> about for several years now.  And inflation is making it even harder
>>> to make do.  Afraid there is no spare money for computer hobbies any
>>> more.  With the price of gas I can't even afford to make road trips
>>> for FTGH gear any more.  :-)
>>>
>>>> But then you need  to track down the license.
>>>
>>> VSI License is easy to come by.  I have one for the emulators I have
>>> been trying to get running.
>>
>> It was the PL/I license I was thinking about,
>
> Oh, I thought the previous post said hobbyist licenses for the
> Kednos PL/I compiler were still available.

I think it is.

But I am not sure whether it is Kednos or Endless software you need
to go to.

And both web sites seems down now.

>>>>> But I may look into that. Haven't done any serious PL/I for
>>>>> 40 years but it was fun when I did.
>>>>
>>>> There are lots of rare languages to look at.
>>>>
>>>> GNU Modula-2 runs great on Linux.
>>>
>>> I was never impressed with Modula.  Not even when it got all
>>> the way up to 2.  :-)
>>
>> I think Modula-2 was a very nice language.
>
> To each his own.  I saw it as an attempt to get people to stop
> using Pascal for the things it was never intended to for.  And
> then it started to grow.

I guess that is right. Pascal for real development. I consider that
a good thing.

>>>>>> Or you could give http://www.iron-spring.com/ a try on
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't know about this but a quick look shows  a beta that
>>>>> is, at least so far, incomplete.  But then, it's free and
>>>>> you get what you pay for.
>>>>
>>>> Too bad that Raincode only offer their Cobol compiler for
>>>> free and not their PL/I compiler.
>>>
>>> OK, I guess, if you want to do Windows.  :-)
>>
>> They do have a Linux version too.
>
> I must have missed that in my quick perusal of their web page. I
> thought they said they were for .NET.

They are .NET based.

But .NET today is Windows, Linux or macOS at your choice.

Arne

On 12/12/2021 9:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/11/21 8:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/11/2021 7:24 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/11/21 3:23 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> So it is hard to say whether it is a great salary or a
>>>> crap salary.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not a sky rocket salary.
>>>
>>> Seriously?  I just took a quick look at Java Programmers on Indeed.
>>> Most of the jobs are for half of that.  And a lot of those were in
>>> NYC where a 1 bedroom apartment starts at $2000 a month.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> Average developer salaries in the US is somewhere in the 100-110 range.
>
> A quick perusal of Indeed seems to contradict that.  While some
> jobs list a high end over 100K the low end is usually 20K-40K.
> Amazon is paying 30K to stuff boxes around here.

That is the statistics.

And they will not get any programmers for Amazon warehouse pay level.

>> O'Reilly -
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-much-money-you-can-make-as-a-developer-in-2021/
>>
>>
>> Burning Glass / Dice -
>> https://insights.dice.com/2020/10/13/12-programming-languages-that-pay-ultra-high-salaries/
>>
>>
>> Glass Door / Octoparse -
>> https://www.octoparse.com/blog/15-highest-paying-programming-languages-in-2017
>>
>>
>> Indeed / Daxx (Python only, but be state) -
>> https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/python-developer-salary-usa
>>
>> Code Platoon -
>> https://www.codeplatoon.org/the-best-paying-and-most-in-demand-programming-languages-in-2021/
>>
>>
>> Statista / Indeed -
>> https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/highest-paid-programmers-by-language
>
> I used to get the SANS pay survey results.  According to them
> I should have been  making well over $100K.  It never happened.

Maybe location.

I used one of the many online salary comparers and saw:

Scranton PA - 65000

is the same standard of living as:

Manhattan NY - 170000
San Franciso CA - 133500
Brooklyn NY - 123000
Washington DC - 109500
Seattle WA - 106000
Boston MA - 100000
Los Angeles - 99000

>> There is obviously some uncertainty involved in such numbers.
>>
>> But given that they all end up with very similar numbers from
>> different sources, then they seems very plausible.
>
> Unless part of the purpose is to steer the crowd in a certain direction.

A conspiracy between so many to give an impression of a general higher
salary level then reality?

I don't buy that!

>> Java salaries are at average or slightly above - it is a sort of meat
>> and potato language today - solid demand - but not super hot.
>>
>> The latest and greatest tend to be a lot higher than average due to
>> demand exceeding supply.
>>
>> Rust, Go, Scala etc..
>>
>> A few years ago Ruby and Swift.
>
> Based on that you would expect COBOL to be at the top.  There is
> still demand.  DFAS and IRS constantly hiring.  Other places I
> have personal experience with also have a need.  And supply is
> very close to zero.

There is still some demand. There seems to be several hundred
open jobs all the time.

But that is not much in the bigger IT job market.

>   I am not aware of any University in the US
> today that offers even a basic course in COBOL programming.  Not
> even in their CIS degree programs.

If they need people and they can't get them then they raise
salary until they get people.

And people can learn Cobol.

Good programmers can learn new languages.

And Cobol is not nearly as hard to learn as PL/I, Ada, C++ or
Scala.

> There was a Representative in Congress (from my State, actually)
> here that recently proposed a bill to fund a push to get legacy
> stuff (like COBOL) back into education because of the strong need
> for it in the IT world.  Someone like the department I used to
> work for could get as much as $2,000,000 in grant money and all
> they would have to do to qualify would be to offer courses in
> things like COBOL.  I told them about it.  No interest.  "Too
> much paperwork."  And yet the required paperwork was a mere
> fraction of what is required for your average NSF grant.  Think
> about that.  Teach one copurse that used to be on the books
> anyway 15 years ago and get $2,000,000.  And maybe more  next
> year.  Assuming you didn't want to divert current faculty to
> the task, you could hire a new faculty member for maybe $250,000
> to cover pay and benefits. $50,000 to get him and office and
> the rest is in the departments coffers.  And yet, no interest.

Seems pretty silly/arrogant to me to not look into it.

And it is not a bad idea.

There is some demand for those skills.

And while I may consider it risky for an aspiring developer to
only learn Cobol, then learning Cobol as 1 out of 3 languages
makes fine sense.

Arne

On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>
>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>> illegal. No more, no less.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>

Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
business. Some senior politicians and business people keep wanting to
change that, but whenever they do, they get massive pushback.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-14, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) <helbig@asclothestro.multivax.de> wrote:
>
> Of course, there are times when one should do the right thing even if it
> is illegal, mostly when the regime which made it illegal is itself
> illegal or illegitimate. OK to assassinate Hitler? Sure (at least if
> one can be reasonably sure that it won't make matters worse.)
>

Not possible unfortunately. That's established history and you would
need to time travel in order to change it, which would establish the
usual paradox.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>
>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>
> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
> business.

Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.

But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
actually could be in it for the money.

Arne

On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>
>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>
>
> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
> business. Some senior politicians and business people keep wanting to
> change that, but whenever they do, they get massive pushback.

Medical care should not be a business. But it still has costs.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/14/2021 3:40 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>
>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>> business.
>
> Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.
>
> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
> actually could be in it for the money.

Definitely not all, but, I've seen doctors worry themselves sick, because they
could not do what might be needed for a patient (I hate that term). Sometimes
because there is nothing that can be done. But all too often anymore, because
of the insurance companies.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/14/2021 12:55 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <spaji6$671$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <sp8itv$nn5$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
>>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I guess it's useless. There are some, (like those against Cobol), who will
>>>> never admit that a vendor has a moral, if not legal, responsibility to customers.
>>>
>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>
> The contract with my physicians specify that they will do everything
> medically possible to improve my condition. I have no gripe with that.

So help me understand. Your doctor is suppose to do everything possible to help
you. When a vendor approaches a perspective customer, should they do everything
possible for that customer to use their product(s) successfully?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:

> On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> >> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
> >>> illegal. No more, no less.
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
> >
> > Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
> > business.
>
> Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.
>
> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
> actually could be in it for the money.

They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
medicine would go into it only for the money. Anyone smart enough to
study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
elsewhere.

When I was in high school in the States, there was a future physician
who had moved from Canada with his family because his father, a
physician, wanted to escape "socialized medicine". I say future
physician because he planned to study medicine, definitely only for the
money.

One day a girl farted in Latin class. After the class was over, this
guy (and he was 17 at the time), knowing that I was the science-geek
type, whispered to me "Did you hear that! I didn't know that girls
could fart!" That is NOT the type of person who should be a physician.

In article <spb256$5p9$3@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
<davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

> On 12/14/2021 12:55 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> > In article <spaji6$671$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> >>> In article <sp8itv$nn5$1@dont-email.me>, Dave Froble
> >>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> I guess it's useless. There are some, (like those against Cobol), who will
> >>>> never admit that a vendor has a moral, if not legal, responsibility to customers.
> >>>
> >>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
> >>> illegal. No more, no less.
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
> >
> > The contract with my physicians specify that they will do everything
> > medically possible to improve my condition. I have no gripe with that.
>
> So help me understand. Your doctor is suppose to do everything possible to help
> you. When a vendor approaches a perspective customer, should they do everything
> possible for that customer to use their product(s) successfully?

My physician is not required to do anything illegal in order to do all
that is possible.

If you, as a vendor, have to include illegal practices in order to do
all that is possible for the customer, then there is something wrong.
You shouldn't promise more than you can legally offer.

If this is a big problem, presumably some big customers will say "We
wanted to stay on VMS, but are moving off because of the license
policy". Then some smaller customers. Maybe VSI will notice the
problem.

If no paying customer complains, can it really be a huge problem for
commercial customers? (It is, of course, a problem for hobbyists,
unless they have a commercial license for VAX or Alpha and enough backup
hardware.)

On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>
>> On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>
>>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>>> business.
>>
>> Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.
>>
>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>> actually could be in it for the money.
>
> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
> medicine would go into it only for the money. Anyone smart enough to
> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
> elsewhere.

In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.

I suspect some may take that job for the money.

Arne

On 12/14/2021 4:30 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:

>>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>
>>> The contract with my physicians specify that they will do everything
>>> medically possible to improve my condition. I have no gripe with that.
>>
>> So help me understand. Your doctor is suppose to do everything possible to help
>> you. When a vendor approaches a perspective customer, should they do everything
>> possible for that customer to use their product(s) successfully?
>
> My physician is not required to do anything illegal in order to do all
> that is possible.

Ok, let's look at that. Suppose there is something that is illegal that your
doctor could help you with. Would you advocate that you not get needed help,
or, would you figure that those who made it illegal were in error?

Let's consider some terminal, weeks to live, and in great pain. Some drugs are
illegal, but could help with the pain. Should a doctor do all possible,
including illegal drugs, to ease the pain and suffering?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Den 2021-12-14 kl. 23:22, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>>>> illegal.  No more, no less.
>>>>>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>>
>>>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>>>> business.
>>>
>>> Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.
>>>
>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>
>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>> elsewhere.
>
> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>
> I suspect some may take that job for the money.
>
> Arne
>

And I do not think that Danish doctors needs a lot of heavy incurances
to "cover their ass" in case of some some mistake, do they? All that
is covered in other ways.

On 12/14/21 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>
>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>> illegal. No more, no less.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>
>
> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
> business. Some senior politicians and business people keep wanting to
> change that, but whenever they do, they get massive pushback.

Ah... European medicine.

I had a dislocated finger fixed by a British Army doctor once.
I showed him the finger. He grabbed my hand. Yanked the end
of the finger out and pushed it back into place. I hope they
don't use the same technique for more serious stuff. Over here
they usually numb it at least a little. Oh well. At least I
didn't pass out but I can assure you the fix hurt way more than
the injury. :-)

bill

On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>
>>> On 12/14/2021 3:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-14, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/14/2021 12:35 AM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A vendor has to live up to the contract and should not do anything
>>>>>> illegal.  No more, no less.
>>>>>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that how you want your doctor to treat you?
>>>>
>>>> Here in Europe, medicine is a humanitarian career, not a for-profit
>>>> business.
>>>
>>> Hospitals in Europe are typical public funded.
>>>
>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>
>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>> elsewhere.
>
> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.

Are you sure of that? McDonald's pays more over here. That is
barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.

bill

On 12/14/2021 6:39 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-12-14 kl. 23:22, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>
>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>>> elsewhere.
>>
>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>
>> I suspect some may take that job for the money.
>
> And I do not think that Danish doctors needs a lot of heavy incurances
> to "cover their ass" in case of some some mistake, do they? All that
> is covered in other ways.

In Denmark the hospitals not the doctors pay for the insurance -
supposedly the model is copied from Sweden.

Arne

On 12/14/2021 7:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>
>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>>> elsewhere.
>>
>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>
> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.

Did you notice "per month"?

:-)

Arne

On 12/14/21 7:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/14/2021 7:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>>
>>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>
>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>
>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>
> Did you notice "per month"?
>
> :-)
>

Yes.
And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
$28,000 a year.

The $15 an hour minimum that people bitch is insufficient to live on
works out to about $31,000 a year.

And, based on my own personal experience living in Europe in the past
it ain't cheaper over there.

bill

On 12/14/2021 8:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/14/21 7:41 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/14/2021 7:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/14/21 5:22 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/14/2021 4:26 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>> In article <61b9015b$0$706$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>>>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>> But doctors are often paid pretty well - so they may not have
>>>>>> chosen that career because they are great humanitarians - they
>>>>>> actually could be in it for the money.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are paid well, but not so well that someone not interested in
>>>>> medicine would go into it only for the money.  Anyone smart enough to
>>>>> study medicine successfully could make much more with much less effort
>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> In Denmark the average salary for doctors at public hospitals after
>>>> 8 years of employment is 16-18 K$ per month.
>>>
>>> Are you sure of that?  McDonald's pays more over here. That is
>>> barely the minimum wage everyone here bitches about all the time.
>>
>> Did you notice "per month"?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
> Yes.
> And according to Google that works out to be $2400 a month or about
> $28,000 a year.

Weird.

My calculators says 192-216 K$ per year.

> The $15 an hour minimum that people bitch is insufficient to live on
> works out to about $31,000 a year.
>
> And, based on my own personal experience living in Europe in the past
> it ain't cheaper over there.

It isn't but the doctors will survive.

Arne