We have managed to get our paws on some BRAND NEW Tape Drives
All set up for OpenVMS SCSI and SAS

NEW DAT160 SCSI/LVD
NEW DAT72 SCSI/LVD
NEW DAT72 USB (not for OpenVMS)
NEW LTO4 SCSI/LVD
NEW LTO6 SAS

if you think you might need any of the above, we can do some really good
deals
All the above are in a good sized quantity

Island Computers
dturner@islandco.com
www.islandco.com for more info

On 3/4/2022 12:53 PM, David Turner wrote:
> We have managed to get our paws on some BRAND NEW Tape Drives
> All set up for OpenVMS SCSI and SAS
>
> NEW DAT160 SCSI/LVD
> NEW DAT72 SCSI/LVD
> NEW DAT72 USB (not for OpenVMS)
> NEW LTO4 SCSI/LVD
> NEW LTO6 SAS
>
> if you think you might need any of the above, we can do some really
> good deals
> All the above are in a good sized quantity
>
> Island Computers
> dturner@islandco.com
> www.islandco.com for more info
>
Those USB DAT72 I am sure would work well on Emulated OpenVMS boxes
(x86-64) with Stromasys or AlphaVM-Pro etc

On 3/5/22 12:47, David Turner wrote:
>
> Those USB DAT72 I am sure would work well on Emulated OpenVMS boxes
> (x86-64) with Stromasys or AlphaVM-Pro etc
>

The notion of Emulated OpenVMS boxes made me wonder about something else
(again!).

Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
Who keeps the physical media? Is there physical media?
Is it in a format that could be taken someplace else if
disaster strikes the Cloud System?

I guess I'm just a Gloomy Gus but every time I think of
The Cloud my mind comes up with more and more reasons
why it seems like a really bad business decision.

bill

On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?

The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
data center.

Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
ensuring that backups are being created and tested?

Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different. But -- to
me -- the responsible parties are still the same.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>
> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
> data center.
>
> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?

How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
let me in the door, much less into the data center?

>
> Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different.  But -- to
> me -- the responsible parties are still the same.

Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
located in my office? After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
was to get out of the data center business. Even in a data center
as small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day. That
can't be right.

Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.

bill

Hallelujah
And what about security?
When you are on the cloud, you are almost certainly running OpenVMS on
an emulator
And in most cases that emulator is running on Windows (M$)
Yes, granted, AlphaVM-Pro and Charon-Alpha runs on linux but I can
almost guarantee you that to run it in the cloud
it will require Windows.
So then, a zeaous IT manager, to maintain security, patches the hell out
of your cloud server
Server stops running
Nice...

How hard is it to maintain your own server?

Or ... should we start thinking about buying a building inland close to
a FIber trunk and offer REAL VMS boxes
for cloud instances?
Would anyone here trust us to provide, assuming we follow security
protocols etc per CO-LO sites requirements??????

David

On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>
>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on
>> premises data center.
>>
>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>
> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
> physically, the system I am running on is?  If I did, would they even
> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>
>>
>> Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different.  But --
>> to me -- the responsible parties are still the same.
>
> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
> located in my office?  After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
> was to get out of the data center business.  Even in a data center
> as small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
> done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day. That
> can't be right.
>
> Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.
>
> bill
>

On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>
>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on
>> premises data center.
>>
>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>
> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
> physically, the system I am running on is?  If I did, would they even
> let me in the door, much less into the data center?

You access the systems over the network.You don't need to know where
the hardware is physical located - you just need to know how to connect.

>> Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different.  But -- to
>> me -- the responsible parties are still the same.
>
> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
> located in my office?  After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
> was to get out of the data center business.  Even in a data center
> as small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
> done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day.  That
> can't be right.

Anything is possible.

But typical you will backup to backup storage at same or alternate cloud
provider.

Large backups take time - both with tape drives and network.

Arne

Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>
>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
>> data center.
>>
>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>
>How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
>let me in the door, much less into the data center?

"Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing." You're hiring some people to run
computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them offsite.
Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done and
how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
restore for test purposes.

Everything they do and they expect of you is in the SLA. If it's not in the
SLA, don't expect it to happen.

>Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.

The advantage is in economies of scale. Running a million computers doesn't
cost a thousand times what running a thousand does.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 3/5/2022 7:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
> And what about security?
> When you are on the cloud, you are almost certainly running OpenVMS on
> an emulator

Until 9.2 is ready: yes.

> And in most cases that emulator is running on Windows (M$)
> Yes, granted, AlphaVM-Pro and Charon-Alpha runs on linux but I can
> almost guarantee you that to run it in the cloud
> it will require Windows.

Why?

Most cloud is Linux (even MS cloud Azure is more Linux than Windows).

> So then, a zeaous IT manager, to maintain security, patches the hell out
> of your cloud server
> Server stops running

It could happen.

But it could also happen that your own server got hit by a crashing
airplane.

Neither seems to happen much in real life.

> How hard is it to maintain your own server?
>
> Or ... should we start thinking about buying a building inland close to
> a FIber trunk and offer REAL VMS boxes
> for cloud instances?
> Would anyone here trust us to provide, assuming we follow security
> protocols etc per CO-LO sites requirements??????

You would rank high in trust.

But it will be difficult to be competitive.

People expect ability to create new instances immediately. At
least outside the VMS world the expectation is to be able to
create thousands of new instances immediately.

And then there is the business case. 5-20 cents per hour
is not much. You need a lot of servers to be able to
pay for 1 person. According to internet gossip then Google
has 28000 servers per sysadm.

Arne

On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>>
>>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
>>> data center.
>>>
>>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>>
>> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>> physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
>> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>
> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing." You're hiring some people to run
> computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them offsite.
> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done and
> how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
> restore for test purposes.

I think that depends on the type of cloud.

With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being responsible
for backup as always.

Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the
cloud vendors responsibility to do backup.

Arne

On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>
>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises data
>> center.
>>
>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for ensuring that
>> backups are being created and tested?
>
> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
> physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>
>>
>> Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different. But -- to me --
>> the responsible parties are still the same.
>
> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
> located in my office? After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
> was to get out of the data center business. Even in a data center
> as small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
> done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day. That
> can't be right.
>
> Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.
>
> bill
>

If one is using "the cloud", then one is using a service, not a computer system.

One might ask, how were things done back in the days of purchasing time sharing.

In both cases, it would be the responsibility of the service provider.

The real question is, how does one determine that the service provider is indeed
doing backups, testing restores, and such. I do not know the answer to that
question.

Perhaps a simple test case, assuming that the service provider includes restores
from backup, would be to set up a test file, wait an appropriate time, then
delete it and ask the provider for a restore?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 3/5/22 20:12, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Bill Gunshannon  <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>>>
>>>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
>>>> data center.
>>>>
>>>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>>>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>>>
>>> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>>> physically, the system I am running on is?  If I did, would they even
>>> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>>
>> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing."  You're hiring some people to
>> run
>> computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them
>> offsite.
>> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done and
>> how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
>> restore for test purposes.
>
> I think that depends on the type of cloud.
>
> With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being responsible
> for backup as always.
>
> Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the
> cloud vendors responsibility to do backup.
>

And all these Cloud geniuses know how to do a backup and restore on
VMS? And we won't even get into how you get them to store the backups
in a different location.

bill

On 3/5/2022 9:45 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/5/22 20:12, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Bill Gunshannon  <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>>>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>>>>
>>>>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on
>>>>> premises
>>>>> data center.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>>>>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>>>>
>>>> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>>>> physically, the system I am running on is?  If I did, would they even
>>>> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>>>
>>> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing."  You're hiring some people
>>> to run
>>> computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them
>>> offsite.
>>> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done
>>> and
>>> how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
>>> restore for test purposes.
>>
>> I think that depends on the type of cloud.
>>
>> With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being responsible
>> for backup as always.
>>
>> Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the
>> cloud vendors responsibility to do backup.
>
> And all these Cloud geniuses know how to do a backup and restore on
> VMS?

If someone offered a VMS based PaaS service, then they would know
how to do it on VMS.

>   And we won't even get into how you get them to store the backups
> in a different location.

That is the easy part for the big cloud vendors. They got many
locations.

Arne

On 3/5/2022 8:48 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.
>
> If one is using "the cloud", then one is using a service, not a computer
> system.
>
> One might ask, how were things done back in the days of purchasing time
> sharing.
>
> In both cases, it would be the responsibility of the service provider.

It depends a lot on what type of cloud it is.

IaaS - they deliver a VM to you and you install the OS, applications
and do the backups. The backup may likely use some other cloud
service, but still your problem to setup and test.

PaaS / managed service / FaaS / SaaS - yes most likely backup will be
their responsibility.

Arne

On 3/5/22 4:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
> physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
> let me in the door, much less into the data center?

Backups can mean a LOT of different things. Including quiescing a
database and copying it included among them. Do you /need/ to know
where system A is located to copy files from system A to system B? I
don't think so.

I don't know how much support OpenVMS has for iSCSI attached tape
drives. But I expect that OpenVMS can support a fibre channel attached
tape drive. Both iSCSI and fibre channel can be extended a LONG
distance. Said long distance can even be over a data center
interconnection. Thus the OpenVMS system in the cloud can use an iSCSI
/ fibre channel attach tape drive that's sitting on your desk. Thus you
can back up to tapes in your office. Thereby fulfilling two things,
backups and having them be offsite.

I similarly expect that you can set up volume shadowing between an
OpenVMS system in the cloud and another OpenVMS system in your office.

Create a cluster that spans multiple sites, one site in the cloud and
another site local to your office, and have a local physical machine
perform backups for the other nodes to a SCSI attached tape drive.

> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
> located in my office?

They don't have to be. But I believe they certainly could be.

> After all, the reason for going to The Cloud was to get out of the
> data center business.

That's one reason to go to the cloud. There are others.

> Even in a data center as small as mine was at the University doing
> a complete backup (usually done once a month) over the network could
> take a more than a day. That can't be right.

Why can't it be right?

I back up my multiple Linux cloud systems to a server in my house each
and every night via automated jobs that I monitor.

> Still don't see the advantage of The Cloud.

In my (not so) humble opinion, "the cloud" is just another data center,
especially if you are responsible for the Operating System.

The location of the data has nothing to do with ensuring that it is
backed up.

Note: There is a big difference in ensuring that it is backed up and
actually doing the backup yourself. IT directors quite likely don't do
the backups themselves, but they employ people to do it for them.

As others have stated, there are many different types of clouds. Some
offer application level services, e.g. "email" or "DNS". Others offer
(virtual) machines that you install and manage an operating system in.
Different levels of access mean different levels of responsibility.

There are also security implications with having cloud providers be
responsible for the backups in that they need access to the data to be
able to do the backups.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
>Info-vax
>Sent: March-05-22 5:37 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Special deals on Tape Drives
>
>On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>
>The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on premises
>data center.
>
>Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for ensuring
>that backups are being created and tested?
>
>Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different. But -- to me
--
>the responsible parties are still the same.
>

"Public Cloud" is just another name for outsourcing parts of your IT to
other vendors like Microsoft (Azure), Amazon (AWS) in return for paying a
fee for monthly services your company has contracted with.

Like outsourcing, moving to a public cloud means you are leaving behind
those portions of your current service model that you decide can be done
better by someone other than your current provider e.g. your internal IT
dept.

Like outsourcing, one of the biggest challenges moving to the "Public Cloud"
is designing, implementing and maintaining a new service model i.e. defining
backup strategy (policies, schedules, data retention, if offsite required,
restore testing etc.), system and security monitoring, management and WHO
will implement these. In addition, how much is the new service model going
to cost up front and on an annual basis.

Like outsourcing, you need to determine how the company is going to measure
/ monitor the new service providers to see if they are delivering the level
of service they are contracted for. SLA management of external vendors is
not an easy thing to do and has additional costs associated with this
activity as well.

Like outsourcing, for the question of who does backups in the Public Cloud,
the answer is "whatever third party your company decided to contact for the
backup/restore portion of their service model".

When all of the real costs of "Public Cloud" outsourcing is considered, it
becomes pretty clear why many M-L companies are deciding to go with the
"Private Cloud" model whereby they have many of the same features as a
Public Cloud e.g. provisioning on demand, capacity on demand, but with a
much more integrated service model and with more integrated security that
does not require them to manage and contract out to many and often different
outsourcer vendors. Note that one feature of Private Clouds I have seen is
that adopters may still adopt a collocation provider for secure Data Centre
Services as most companies do not want to be in the DC Facility business
anymore.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing." You're hiring some people to run
>> computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them offsite.
>> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done and
>> how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
>> restore for test purposes.
>
>I think that depends on the type of cloud.
>
>With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being responsible
>for backup as always.
>
>Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the
>cloud vendors responsibility to do backup.

Maybe. It'll say so in your SLA. Read your SLA carefully, then have a
lawyer read it, then have a computer center guy read it, then read it
some more. Everything the provider is obligated to do is in there,
and if it's not in there you shouldn't expect it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>And all these Cloud geniuses know how to do a backup and restore on
>VMS? And we won't even get into how you get them to store the backups
>in a different location.

That's the beauty of virtualization. You can just snapshot the disks,
you don't need access to the computer or operating system at all. It
doesn't matter what OS is running, from the standpoint of the backup
system, it's all just data.

IBM was able to do this back in the seventies; you could do direct backups
from disk to tape using just the channel controllers with the CPU shut off.
But now it's pretty much universal.

You don't need to know -anything- about the customer's system, you just
need to be able to snapshot and replicate it as needed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via
>Info-vax
>Sent: March-05-22 8:59 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Special deals on Tape Drives
>
>On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 3/5/22 16:37, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>> On 3/5/22 12:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> Who is responsible for backups in a Cloud based system?
>>>
>>> The same people that are responsible for backups when in an on
>>> premises data center.
>>>
>>> Why would the location of the system alter who's responsible for
>>> ensuring that backups are being created and tested?
>>
>> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>> physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
>> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>
>You access the systems over the network.You don't need to know where the
>hardware is physical located - you just need to know how to connect.
>

In many cases, this is correct i.e., location independent services, does not depend on the distance between the service provider and the service consumer.

However, if there are latency considerations with some workloads, then like outsourcing, one of the first questions to the new provider is "where are your data centres located?"

Case in point - Microsoft Azure DC's in Canada are located in Toronto and Quebec City. AWS DC's are located in the Montreal area. That’s it for these vendors. For those Customers in Western or Eastern Canada, choosing Azure or AWS must ask if any of their workloads will be subject to latency issues. And as readers in comp.os.vms already know, bandwidth and latency are two totally different subjects.

>>> Sure, the technology used for the backups may be different. But --
>>> to me -- the responsible parties are still the same.
>>
>> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
>> located in my office? After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
>> was to get out of the data center business. Even in a data center as
>> small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
>> done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day.
>> That can't be right.
>
>Anything is possible.
>
>But typical you will backup to backup storage at same or alternate cloud
>provider.
>
>Large backups take time - both with tape drives and network.
>
>Arne
>

Correct - there is usually a solution for all scenarios.

However, the challenge with many Cloud backup scenario's is the amount of data to be backed up (usually in multiple TB's range), and the time to backup over the network.

A few considerations:
- most backup providers charge by the amount of data that gets backed up and archived. If one does the math, TB++ backups on a daily, weekly, monthly basis often have a large additional re-occurring monthly cost;
- many App environments will have "backup windows" where backups must be completed within that Window. Anything outside this Window may impact other aspects of the IT SLA's (impact on users, App support batch jobs etc.)

If a company requires offsite backup archiving separate from the prod data (comp.os.vms readers understand the difference between replication and off-site data backups), then the backup discussion in the Cloud gets exponentially more complex.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 3/6/2022 10:06 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing." You're hiring some people to run
>>> computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping them offsite.
>>> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are done and
>>> how often they are tested, and you have a right to occasionally demand a
>>> restore for test purposes.
>>
>> I think that depends on the type of cloud.
>>
>> With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being responsible
>> for backup as always.
>>
>> Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the
>> cloud vendors responsibility to do backup.
>
> Maybe. It'll say so in your SLA. Read your SLA carefully, then have a
> lawyer read it, then have a computer center guy read it, then read it
> some more. Everything the provider is obligated to do is in there,
> and if it's not in there you shouldn't expect it.

That is good advice. For any business agreement - cloud or something else.

Arne

On 3/6/2022 10:09 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And all these Cloud geniuses know how to do a backup and restore on
>> VMS? And we won't even get into how you get them to store the backups
>> in a different location.
>
> That's the beauty of virtualization. You can just snapshot the disks,
> you don't need access to the computer or operating system at all. It
> doesn't matter what OS is running, from the standpoint of the backup
> system, it's all just data.
>
> IBM was able to do this back in the seventies; you could do direct backups
> from disk to tape using just the channel controllers with the CPU shut off.
> But now it's pretty much universal.
>
> You don't need to know -anything- about the customer's system, you just
> need to be able to snapshot and replicate it as needed.

For some things like a database backup I would want something
application aware to ensure that the backup is usable from
an application perspective.

Arne

On 3/6/2022 10:09 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via Info-vax
>> On 3/5/2022 6:53 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> How would I perform backups and test them if I don't even know where,
>>> physically, the system I am running on is? If I did, would they even
>>> let me in the door, much less into the data center?
>>
>> You access the systems over the network.You don't need to know where the
>> hardware is physical located - you just need to know how to connect.
>>
>
> In many cases, this is correct i.e., location independent services,
> does not depend on the distance between the service provider and the
> service consumer.
>
> However, if there are latency considerations with some workloads,
> then like outsourcing, one of the first questions to the new provider
> is "where are your data centres located?"
>
> Case in point - Microsoft Azure DC's in Canada are located in Toronto
> and Quebec City. AWS DC's are located in the Montreal area. That’s it
> for these vendors. For those Customers in Western or Eastern Canada,
> choosing Azure or AWS must ask if any of their workloads will be
> subject to latency issues. And as readers in comp.os.vms already
> know, bandwidth and latency are two totally different subjects.

There can be both end user latency reasons and legal reasons to
want the cloud provider in a certain region. That is quite common.
And the big cloud providers are constantly expanding to try and
cover more area.

But for the sysadm ssh'ing in it does not matter.

>>> Are you saying backups have to be done over the Internet to tapes
>>> located in my office? After all, the reason for going to The Cloud
>>> was to get out of the data center business. Even in a data center as
>>> small as mine was at the University doing a complete backup (usually
>>> done once a month) over the network could take a more than a day.
>>> That can't be right.
>>
>> Anything is possible.
>>
>> But typical you will backup to backup storage at same or alternate cloud
>> provider.
>>
>> Large backups take time - both with tape drives and network.
>
> Correct - there is usually a solution for all scenarios.
>
> However, the challenge with many Cloud backup scenario's is the
> amount of data to be backed up (usually in multiple TB's range), and
> the time to backup over the network.
>
> A few considerations: - most backup providers charge by the amount of
> data that gets backed up and archived. If one does the math, TB++
> backups on a daily, weekly, monthly basis often have a large
> additional re-occurring monthly cost; - many App environments will
> have "backup windows" where backups must be completed within that
> Window. Anything outside this Window may impact other aspects of the
> IT SLA's (impact on users, App support batch jobs etc.)
>
> If a company requires offsite backup archiving separate from the prod
> data (comp.os.vms readers understand the difference between
> replication and off-site data backups), then the backup discussion in
> the Cloud gets exponentially more complex.
Cloud backup storage cost money. Tapes, tape drives and
tape storage cost money.

Nothing is free.

Companies must do the cost analysis and decide what works
for them.

AWS takes 5 cent per GB month for "warm" storage and 1 cent
per GB month for "cold" storage. That is 600 and 120 dollars
per TB year respectively.

Arne

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via
>Info-vax
>Sent: March-06-22 11:18 AM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Special deals on Tape Drives
>
>On 3/6/2022 10:06 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 3/5/2022 8:01 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> "Cloud" is a new word for "timesharing." You're hiring some people
>>>> to run computers for you, and that includes doing backups and keeping
>them offsite.
>>>> Your service level agreement with them will detail how these are
>>>> done and how often they are tested, and you have a right to
>>>> occasionally demand a restore for test purposes.
>>>
>>> I think that depends on the type of cloud.
>>>
>>> With IaaS cloud then I would expect the IT department being
>>> responsible for backup as always.
>>>
>>> Only with PaaS cloud and managed services it would fully be the cloud
>>> vendors responsibility to do backup.
>>
>> Maybe. It'll say so in your SLA. Read your SLA carefully, then have
>> a lawyer read it, then have a computer center guy read it, then read
>> it some more. Everything the provider is obligated to do is in there,
>> and if it's not in there you shouldn't expect it.
>
>That is good advice. For any business agreement - cloud or something else.
>
>Arne
>

Agree - I can almost guarantee that these SLA' contracts will contain
off-ramps and/or limitation of liabilities for the service provider.

In addition, costs like backup charges per TB are guaranteed for how long?

Once you have been with a provider for say 12+ months, what happens if they
decide to crank up their monthly backup /storage charges in Year2 or Year3
by 50-75+%?

What happens if the service provider does not meet the SLA's they have been
contracted for?

Sure, you can decide to switch vendors, but think about the challenges this
entails in terms of again, re-creating your service model with YAV (Yet
Another Vendor)

Hence, contract off-ramps for Customers like "annual review of vendor
services" should also be in place to prevent Vendor incompetence and/or
greed.

Companies should also have a plan as to what would need to do if they had to
discontinue a contact with external service provider(s).

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 3/6/2022 8:56 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
> "Public Cloud" is just another name for outsourcing parts of your IT to
> other vendors like Microsoft (Azure), Amazon (AWS) in return for paying a
> fee for monthly services your company has contracted with.
>
> Like outsourcing, moving to a public cloud means you are leaving behind
> those portions of your current service model that you decide can be done
> better by someone other than your current provider e.g. your internal IT

I believe that flexibility/scalability and the paying for usage model
is what is driving cloud not a desire to out-source.

But cloud does imply some outsourcing.

IaaS:
* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
* installation and monitoring of hardware

PaaS/FaaS:
* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
* installation and monitoring of hardware
* OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
* platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring

SaaS:
* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
* installation and monitoring of hardware
* OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
* platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring
* application development
* application installation/maintenance/monitoring

> When all of the real costs of "Public Cloud" outsourcing is considered, it
> becomes pretty clear why many M-L companies are deciding to go with the
> "Private Cloud" model whereby they have many of the same features as a
> Public Cloud e.g. provisioning on demand, capacity on demand, but with a
> much more integrated service model and with more integrated security that
> does not require them to manage and contract out to many and often different
> outsourcer vendors.

Some go for private cloud.

Some go for hybrid cloud.

But the majority goes for public cloud.

Arne

On 3/6/2022 10:39 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via Info-vax
>> On 3/6/2022 10:06 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Maybe. It'll say so in your SLA. Read your SLA carefully, then have
>>> a lawyer read it, then have a computer center guy read it, then read
>>> it some more. Everything the provider is obligated to do is in there,
>>> and if it's not in there you shouldn't expect it.
>>
>> That is good advice. For any business agreement - cloud or something else.
>
> Agree - I can almost guarantee that these SLA' contracts will contain
> off-ramps and/or limitation of liabilities for the service provider.
>
> In addition, costs like backup charges per TB are guaranteed for how long?
>
> Once you have been with a provider for say 12+ months, what happens if they
> decide to crank up their monthly backup /storage charges in Year2 or Year3
> by 50-75+%?

What happens if the supplier of servers for your on premise data center
crank up prices for servers 50-75%?

It doesn't happen. Hardware becomes cheaper over time. And cloud cost
follows hardware cost.

> What happens if the service provider does not meet the SLA's they have been
> contracted for?

That is a very interesting question. Most cloud vendor SLA's has very
soft penalty clauses.

> Sure, you can decide to switch vendors, but think about the challenges this
> entails in terms of again, re-creating your service model with YAV (Yet
> Another Vendor)
>
>
> Hence, contract off-ramps for Customers like "annual review of vendor
> services" should also be in place to prevent Vendor incompetence and/or
> greed.
>
> Companies should also have a plan as to what would need to do if they had to
> discontinue a contact with external service provider(s).

Smart companies does not tie themselves to AWS, Azure or GCP - they
know how they can move.

Arne