On 3/6/2022 10:09 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
> Case in point - Microsoft Azure DC's in Canada are located in Toronto
> and Quebec City. AWS DC's are located in the Montreal area. That’s it
> for these vendors. For those Customers in Western or Eastern Canada,
> choosing Azure or AWS must ask if any of their workloads will be
> subject to latency issues.
And GCP is in Toronto and Montreal.

AWS is planning to open in Calgary next year.

Arne

On 3/6/22 8:20 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> For some things like a database backup I would want something
> application aware to ensure that the backup is usable from an
> application perspective.

Yep.

You almost always need something to quiesce the data for the duration of
the backup, be that a fast snapshot, or a slow write to tape.

Data changing during the middle of a backup may be worse than data after
a crash / EPO. At least the latter is a point in time. While the
former may be self corrupted.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

So am I hearing this correctly????

Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable using a
Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center support and
management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????

Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman
(sorry, I mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to maintain
your company's most important asset? Most of them have no experience
with anything but windows and at best, can reboot a linux box.
We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact that
our servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room about 50
feet from where I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable at night. No
one can touch it, or do some upgrade - nothing -without me putting my
grubby hands on the server.

As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For an
unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering cat
food orders... ok

But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with
very high security strategies (and policies) , often top secret, always
sensitive information.

Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your
company is beyond Nutso!

DT

On 3/6/22 13:41, David Turner wrote:
>
> So am I hearing this correctly????
>
> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable using a
> Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center support and
> management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????
>
> Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman
> (sorry, I mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to maintain
> your company's most important asset? Most of them have no experience
> with anything but windows and at best, can reboot a linux box.
> We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact that
> our servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room about 50
> feet from where I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable at night. No
> one can touch it, or do some upgrade - nothing -without me putting my
> grubby hands on the server.
>
> As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For an
> unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering cat
> food orders... ok
>
> But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with
> very high security strategies (and policies) , often top secret, always
> sensitive information.
>
> Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your
> company is beyond Nutso!
>

Dave,
One thing this conversation has done for me is I am much clearer
now on why banks,insurance companies, credit card processing companies
and so many others of that ilk have stayed with they zSystems running
in the back room of their corporate offices rather than charging
headlong into The Cloud. Now, if we could only convince those
responsible for our national defense of the risks they are taking.

bill

On 3/6/2022 1:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
>
> So am I hearing this correctly????

It's not what you are hearing, but who is talking ..

> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable using a Cloud
> Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center support and management for
> your OpenVMS boxes?????????

A few people are claiming the virtues of "the cloud". Then there are the rest
of us.

> Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman (sorry, I
> mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to maintain your company's
> most important asset? Most of them have no experience with anything but windows
> and at best, can reboot a linux box.
> We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact that our
> servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room about 50 feet from where
> I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable at night. No one can touch it, or do
> some upgrade - nothing -without me putting my grubby hands on the server.
>
> As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For an
> unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering cat food
> orders... ok
>
> But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with very high
> security strategies (and policies) , often top secret, always sensitive
> information.
>
> Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your company is
> beyond Nutso!

You got it in one ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 3/6/2022 1:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
> So am I hearing this correctly????
>
> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable using a
> Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center support and
> management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????

AWS has around 50000 employees specializing in running all aspects
of data centers, server hardware, managed services, tools etc..

There is every reason to believe that they are better to do that
than the average small/medium size company IT department.

AWS is currently not offering any VMS based PaaS services as far
as I know and even after VMS 9.2 get released then I doubt
that they will.

I expect other companies with VMS expertise to offer VMS based
PaaS services in the future. AWS provide the VM's - the third party
company provide VMS specific services.

> Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman
> (sorry, I mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to maintain
> your company's most important asset? Most of them have no experience
> with anything but windows and at best, can reboot a linux box.

????

AWS (and Azure and GCP) hire a lot of good people. Some fresh out
of college - some with 40+ years of experience running systems.

> We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact that
> our servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room about 50
> feet from where I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable at night. No
> one can touch it, or do some upgrade - nothing -without me putting my
> grubby hands on the server.
>
> As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For an
> unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering cat
> food orders... ok

AWS/Azure/GCP data centers are very professional driven.

> But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with
> very high security strategies (and policies) , often top secret, always
> sensitive information.
>
> Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your
> company is beyond Nutso!

Everybody does it - including banks, military etc..

Arne

On 3/6/2022 1:54 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 3/6/22 13:41, David Turner wrote:
>> Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman
>> (sorry, I mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to
>> maintain your company's most important asset? Most of them have no
>> experience with anything but windows and at best, can reboot a linux box.
>> We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact
>> that our servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room about
>> 50 feet from where I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable at
>> night. No one can touch it, or do some upgrade - nothing -without me
>> putting my grubby hands on the server.
>>
>> As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For
>> an unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering
>> cat food orders... ok
>>
>> But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with
>> very high security strategies (and policies) , often top secret,
>> always sensitive information.
>>
>> Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your
>> company is beyond Nutso!

>   One thing this conversation has done for me is I am much clearer
> now on why banks,insurance companies, credit card processing companies
> and so many others of that ilk have stayed with they zSystems running
> in the back room of their corporate offices rather than charging
> headlong into The Cloud.

Most banks are moving their workload off mainframe to x86-64
and cloud (either public cloud or private cloud) as fast as they can.

Which is not that fast, but there is no doubt about the direction.

Arne

Really?
There must be over 5 Million IT Managers globally who only take care of
Windows based servers
I would NOT trust any one of them to take care of/manage an Openvms server
Period.
Believe me, we deal with a lot of companies who fired, or lost (normally
due to retirement or even.... death!) their OpenVMS IT manager.
These people hire replacements straight out of college (or not) and rely
on their Windows expertise.
They know NOTHING about VMS. Even most Linux people now know very little
about other operating systems, outside of Windows or MAC OS

I think anyone entrusting an outside company, no matter how big
(Remember DELL and the Indian support debacle) is nuts. Beyond nuts.
But it will take several very bad experiences, and an understanding CTO
to realize this

DT

On 3/6/2022 2:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 1:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
>> So am I hearing this correctly????
>>
>> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable
>> using a Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center
>> support and management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????
>
> AWS has around 50000 employees specializing in running all aspects
> of data centers, server hardware, managed services, tools etc..
>
> There is every reason to believe that they are better to do that
> than the average small/medium size company IT department.
>
> AWS is currently not offering any VMS based PaaS services as far
> as I know and even after VMS 9.2 get released then I doubt
> that they will.
>
> I expect other companies with VMS expertise to offer VMS based
> PaaS services in the future. AWS provide the VM's - the third party
> company provide VMS specific services.
>
>> Putting an enterprise at the mercy of a 20 year old night watchman
>> (sorry, I mean Tech) at a WEB Services Co paid minimum wage to
>> maintain your company's most important asset? Most of them have no
>> experience with anything but windows and at best, can reboot a linux
>> box.
>
> ????
>
> AWS (and Azure and GCP) hire a lot of good people. Some fresh out
> of college - some with 40+ years of experience running systems.
>
>> We are a small computer reseller, and I can tell you now, the fact
>> that our servers are running in an air conditioned concrete room
>> about 50 feet from where I work makes me feel a lot more comfortable
>> at night. No one can touch it, or do some upgrade - nothing -without
>> me putting my grubby hands on the server.
>>
>> As much as these webservices companies go, for a website - great. For
>> an unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering
>> cat food orders... ok
>
> AWS/Azure/GCP data centers are very professional driven.
>
>> But from what I deal with, OpenVMS users are in business sectors with
>> very high security strategies (and policies) , often top secret,
>> always sensitive information.
>>
>> Entrusting this data to anyone outside the realms or control of your
>> company is beyond Nutso!
>
> Everybody does it - including banks, military etc..
>
> Arne
>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via
>Info-vax
>Sent: March-06-22 12:00 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Special deals on Tape Drives
>
>On 3/6/2022 8:56 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> "Public Cloud" is just another name for outsourcing parts of your IT
>> to other vendors like Microsoft (Azure), Amazon (AWS) in return for
>> paying a fee for monthly services your company has contracted with.
>>
>> Like outsourcing, moving to a public cloud means you are leaving
>> behind those portions of your current service model that you decide
>> can be done better by someone other than your current provider e.g.
>> your internal IT
>
>I believe that flexibility/scalability and the paying for usage model is
what is
>driving cloud not a desire to out-source.
>

The capacity on demand model (COD) has been around for numerous decades and
was/is available from many vendors.

>But cloud does imply some outsourcing.
>
>IaaS:
>* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>* installation and monitoring of hardware
>
>PaaS/FaaS:
>* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>* installation and monitoring of hardware
>* OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
>* platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring
>
>SaaS:
>* maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>* installation and monitoring of hardware
>* OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
>* platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring
>* application development
>* application installation/maintenance/monitoring
>

All (ok, most) outsourcers have a tremendous flexibility .. the IaaS, PaaS
models are simply new cloud buzz words for what outsourcers like HP, IBM,
EDS (aka HPE) have traditionally provided with custom outsourcing contracts.
That is before some of these big companies sold off their outsource
divisions.

Want just DC services? No problem - they will provide a custom quote for
you.

Same for options where outsourcer provides DC/infrastructure / OS services,
but Cust does App /DB/middleware layers.

All were previously custom outsourcing contracts.

Those in comp.os.vms who have worked for outsourcing companies will likely
attest to this.

>> When all of the real costs of "Public Cloud" outsourcing is
>> considered, it becomes pretty clear why many M-L companies are
>> deciding to go with the "Private Cloud" model whereby they have many
>> of the same features as a Public Cloud e.g. provisioning on demand,
>> capacity on demand, but with a much more integrated service model and
>> with more integrated security that does not require them to manage and
>> contract out to many and often different outsourcer vendors.
>
>Some go for private cloud.
>
>Some go for hybrid cloud.
>
>But the majority goes for public cloud.
>
>Arne
>

Like outsourcing, its easy for managers to fall into the trap of "why not
give this XYZ function to another vendor who specializes in managing this
XYZ function". However, like Outsourcing, Public Cloud vendors and
proponents will stress "IT lite" things like how much cpu's cost per hour.
However, the biggest costs (by far) are those costs associated with
redesigning, implementing and on-going support of a multi-vendor provided
support model.

When the IT maturity of a M-L company rises to a certain level and gains
experience with "Public Cloud", they begin to realize that they can
internally provide the same on demand server VM provisioning developers
like, with much better integrated security (SOC/NOC / service desk
integration) than that of a Public Cloud.

Reference:
Forbes.com: " Why Is Cloud Migration Reversing From Public To On-Premises
Private Clouds?" - August 2021
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterbendorsamuel/2021/08/10/why-is-cloud-migr
ation-reversing-from-public-to-on-premises-private-clouds/?sh=4ff3578563cc>

Extracts -

"Increasingly this year, we see many companies that aggressively migrated
their work from on-premises clouds looking to move work back to on-premises
and private clouds. The mindset that the public cloud saves money because a
company only pays for what it uses is just theoretical and really an
illusion. Realistically, companies tend to buy capacity rather than actual
time used. Thus, companies are in a take-or-pay situation like the economics
of a private cloud or on-premises solution."

"However, there was a lot of speculation that at some point, the hyperscale
cloud provider would start to take greater profits, and economies of scale
would start to diminish. Both appear to be happening now. This is not
surprising because we know that it is rational for companies to start to
emphasize profitability."

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Den 2022-03-06 kl. 19:41, skrev David Turner:
>

> For an unimportant application like order entry from vpn users entering
> cat food orders... ok

The the producer of cat food, I'd expect that to be their most
important application.

On 3/6/2022 2:33 PM, David Turner wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 2:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 3/6/2022 1:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
>>> So am I hearing this correctly????
>>>
>>> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable
>>> using a Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center
>>> support and management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????
>>
>> AWS has around 50000 employees specializing in running all aspects
>> of data centers, server hardware, managed services, tools etc..
>>
>> There is every reason to believe that they are better to do that
>> than the average small/medium size company IT department.
>>
>> AWS is currently not offering any VMS based PaaS services as far
>> as I know and even after VMS 9.2 get released then I doubt
>> that they will.
>>
>> I expect other companies with VMS expertise to offer VMS based
>> PaaS services in the future. AWS provide the VM's - the third party
>> company provide VMS specific services.

> There must be over 5 Million IT Managers globally who only take care of
> Windows based servers
> I would NOT trust any one of them to take care of/manage an Openvms
server
> Period.
> Believe me, we deal with a lot of companies who fired, or lost (normally
> due to retirement or even.... death!) their OpenVMS IT manager.
> These people hire replacements straight out of college (or not) and rely
> on their Windows expertise.
> They know NOTHING about VMS. Even most Linux people now know very little
> about other operating systems, outside of Windows or MAC OS

I don't think AWS has any VMS expertise, but unless they start offering
VMS based PaaS/FaaS/managed services/SaaS, then they don't need to.

For the traditional IaaS they just provide the data center, server
hardware and the VM's. The rest is up to the customer.

And since they are running a crazy high number of millions of servers,
then delivering VM's is something they are good at.

I don't think they will be interested in offering VMS based
services. They only do in large volume stuff.

VSI/IslandCo/Parsec/Stromasys/whoever that has VMS expertise
could start offering VMS based services on top of AWS/Azure/GCP
basic IaaS offerings.

Lots of companies does that.

> I think anyone entrusting an outside company, no matter how big
> (Remember DELL and the Indian support debacle) is nuts. Beyond nuts.

Everybody entrust outside companies. Where does your electricity
come from? Etc..

Arne

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 3:23:58 PM UTC-5, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 2:33 PM, David Turner wrote:
> > On 3/6/2022 2:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 3/6/2022 1:41 PM, David Turner wrote:
> >>> So am I hearing this correctly????
> >>>
> >>> Most people here commenting are saying that they ARE comfortable
> >>> using a Cloud Hosting service such as AWS to provide Data Center
> >>> support and management for your OpenVMS boxes?????????
> >>
> >> AWS has around 50000 employees specializing in running all aspects
> >> of data centers, server hardware, managed services, tools etc..
> >>
> >> There is every reason to believe that they are better to do that
> >> than the average small/medium size company IT department.
> >>
> >> AWS is currently not offering any VMS based PaaS services as far
> >> as I know and even after VMS 9.2 get released then I doubt
> >> that they will.
> >>
> >> I expect other companies with VMS expertise to offer VMS based
> >> PaaS services in the future. AWS provide the VM's - the third party
> >> company provide VMS specific services.
> > There must be over 5 Million IT Managers globally who only take care of
> > Windows based servers
> > I would NOT trust any one of them to take care of/manage an Openvms
> server
> > Period.
> > Believe me, we deal with a lot of companies who fired, or lost (normally
> > due to retirement or even.... death!) their OpenVMS IT manager.
> > These people hire replacements straight out of college (or not) and rely
> > on their Windows expertise.
> > They know NOTHING about VMS. Even most Linux people now know very little
> > about other operating systems, outside of Windows or MAC OS
> I don't think AWS has any VMS expertise, but unless they start offering
> VMS based PaaS/FaaS/managed services/SaaS, then they don't need to.
>
> For the traditional IaaS they just provide the data center, server
> hardware and the VM's. The rest is up to the customer.
>
> And since they are running a crazy high number of millions of servers,
> then delivering VM's is something they are good at.
>
> I don't think they will be interested in offering VMS based
> services. They only do in large volume stuff.
>
> VSI/IslandCo/Parsec/Stromasys/whoever that has VMS expertise
> could start offering VMS based services on top of AWS/Azure/GCP
> basic IaaS offerings.
>
> Lots of companies does that.
> > I think anyone entrusting an outside company, no matter how big
> > (Remember DELL and the Indian support debacle) is nuts. Beyond nuts.
> Everybody entrust outside companies. Where does your electricity
> come from? Etc..
>
> Arne
FWIW Stromasys has cloud presence for its emulators. There are people with OpenVMS systems using Charon on the cloud for both VAX and Alpha.

Dan

On 2022-03-05, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
> Hallelujah
> And what about security?
> When you are on the cloud, you are almost certainly running OpenVMS on
> an emulator
> And in most cases that emulator is running on Windows (M$)

Mostly Linux, not Windows. And Linux is currently _way_ more secure
than VMS is.

VMS needs some serious work to bring it up to current security standards.

For starters, Linux has ASLR, sandboxing, and mandatory access controls.
VMS has nothing like that.

Linux is also an environment where it is actively probed for security
issues so those issues get fixed and Linux becomes more robust as
a result.

You can also help yourselves by getting rid of unencrypted obsolete
protocols on your network and replacing them exclusively with encrypted
modern protocols.

There's quite the attitude in the VMS world that just because something
was acceptable 20 years ago, then it's automatically somehow acceptable
today.

In the security world, you never know when the next security issue
to be found and reported on is just around the corner.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-03-06, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
> What happens if the supplier of servers for your on premise data center
> crank up prices for servers 50-75%?
>
> It doesn't happen. Hardware becomes cheaper over time. And cloud cost
> follows hardware cost.
>

Hardware is only a small part of it.

As a reminder, VSI have now moved to time-limited production licences.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-03-05, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps a simple test case, assuming that the service provider includes restores
> from backup, would be to set up a test file, wait an appropriate time, then
> delete it and ask the provider for a restore?
>

If someone here actually does that, make sure that you take a hash
of the file before you delete it and then compare it to the hash
value for the file after the file has been restored.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-03-06, David Turner <dturner@islandco.com> wrote:
> Really?
> There must be over 5 Million IT Managers globally who only take care of
> Windows based servers
> I would NOT trust any one of them to take care of/manage an Openvms server
> Period.
> Believe me, we deal with a lot of companies who fired, or lost (normally
> due to retirement or even.... death!) their OpenVMS IT manager.
> These people hire replacements straight out of college (or not) and rely
> on their Windows expertise.
> They know NOTHING about VMS. Even most Linux people now know very little
> about other operating systems, outside of Windows or MAC OS
>

How many VMS people know about z/OS ?

You have just made an argument (in the eyes of management at least)
to get rid of those "strange" VMS boxes and replace them with boxes
that everyone knows how to manage and write software for.

z/OS has some unique features you can discuss with any management
thinking about getting rid of z/OS. What would you say to that same
management when the discussion turns to VMS ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 4:49:53 PM UTC-8, Simon Clubley wrote:

(snip)

> How many VMS people know about z/OS ?

Maybe less than know about OS/VS2 or other IBM OS
from the 1970's and 1980's.

About 1979 I wrote a RECFM=D tape on OS/VS2 to transfer
to VAX/VMS. Even more, with LABEL=(,AL).

There was one complication with that. ASP likes to premount
and verify tapes before starting the job. The solution was to
use LABEL=(,AL,,DEFER) so ASP wouldn't see the tape before OS did.

> You have just made an argument (in the eyes of management at least)
> to get rid of those "strange" VMS boxes and replace them with boxes
> that everyone knows how to manage and write software for.
> z/OS has some unique features you can discuss with any management
> thinking about getting rid of z/OS. What would you say to that same
> management when the discussion turns to VMS ?

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-03-06, David Turner <dtu...@islandco.com> wrote:
> > Really?
> > There must be over 5 Million IT Managers globally who only take care of
> > Windows based servers
> > I would NOT trust any one of them to take care of/manage an Openvms server
> > Period.
> > Believe me, we deal with a lot of companies who fired, or lost (normally
> > due to retirement or even.... death!) their OpenVMS IT manager.
> > These people hire replacements straight out of college (or not) and rely
> > on their Windows expertise.
> > They know NOTHING about VMS. Even most Linux people now know very little
> > about other operating systems, outside of Windows or MAC OS
> >
> How many VMS people know about z/OS ?
>
> You have just made an argument (in the eyes of management at least)
> to get rid of those "strange" VMS boxes and replace them with boxes
> that everyone knows how to manage and write software for.
>
> z/OS has some unique features you can discuss with any management
> thinking about getting rid of z/OS. What would you say to that same
> management when the discussion turns to VMS ?
> Simon.
>

Yep. Easy to manage, needs little management, doesn't fail. Need more??

With moving to hardware emulated environments, the biggest complaints come from the underlying OS having issues, NOT OpenVMS.

Strange...

On 3/6/2022 7:37 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-03-06, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> What happens if the supplier of servers for your on premise data center
>> crank up prices for servers 50-75%?
>>
>> It doesn't happen. Hardware becomes cheaper over time. And cloud cost
>> follows hardware cost.
>
> Hardware is only a small part of it.

No.

Hardware is a very big chunk of a public cloud operation.

> As a reminder, VSI have now moved to time-limited production licences.

I don't think that has any impact on AWS/Azure/GCP IaaS offerings.

Arne

On 2022-03-06, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> How many VMS people know about z/OS ?
>>
>> You have just made an argument (in the eyes of management at least)
>> to get rid of those "strange" VMS boxes and replace them with boxes
>> that everyone knows how to manage and write software for.
>>
>> z/OS has some unique features you can discuss with any management
>> thinking about getting rid of z/OS. What would you say to that same
>> management when the discussion turns to VMS ?
>> Simon.
>>
>
> Yep. Easy to manage, needs little management, doesn't fail. Need more??
>

The problem with that is that VMS isn't easy to manage by current
standards although it certainly was by the standards of 25 years ago.

VMS management is still a very manual process, with no patch management
or notification tools, requires manual error-prone editing of command
and configuration files, no dependency management architecture, overly
complex resource management tuning, etc.

Compare that with the tools available for managing Linux and Windows systems.

This stuff matters because if you want VMS to survive in today's world,
it needs to have the management tools that people have come to expect
in today's world.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-03-07, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 7:37 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-03-06, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> What happens if the supplier of servers for your on premise data center
>>> crank up prices for servers 50-75%?
>>>
>>> It doesn't happen. Hardware becomes cheaper over time. And cloud cost
>>> follows hardware cost.
>>
>> Hardware is only a small part of it.
>
> No.
>
> Hardware is a very big chunk of a public cloud operation.
>
>> As a reminder, VSI have now moved to time-limited production licences.
>
> I don't think that has any impact on AWS/Azure/GCP IaaS offerings.
>

I was replying to your first paragraph above. It gives VSI the opportunity
to crank up prices when the licences need to be renewed.

Simon.

PS: "I am altering the price of your licences. Pray I do not alter
them any further." :-)

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 3/6/2022 2:42 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via Info-vax
>> On 3/6/2022 8:56 AM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>>> "Public Cloud" is just another name for outsourcing parts of your IT
>>> to other vendors like Microsoft (Azure), Amazon (AWS) in return for
>>> paying a fee for monthly services your company has contracted with.
>>>
>>> Like outsourcing, moving to a public cloud means you are leaving
>>> behind those portions of your current service model that you decide
>>> can be done better by someone other than your current provider e.g.
>>> your internal IT
>>
>> I believe that flexibility/scalability and the paying for usage model is what is
>> driving cloud not a desire to out-source.
>>
>
> The capacity on demand model (COD) has been around for numerous decades and
> was/is available from many vendors.
>
>> But cloud does imply some outsourcing.
>>
>> IaaS:
>> * maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>> * installation and monitoring of hardware
>>
>> PaaS/FaaS:
>> * maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>> * installation and monitoring of hardware
>> * OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
>> * platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring
>>
>> SaaS:
>> * maintenance of facility (power, cooling, network connectivity)
>> * installation and monitoring of hardware
>> * OS installation/maintenance/monitoring
>> * platform software installation/maintenance/monitoring
>> * application development
>> * application installation/maintenance/monitoring
>
> All (ok, most) outsourcers have a tremendous flexibility .. the IaaS, PaaS
> models are simply new cloud buzz words for what outsourcers like HP, IBM,
> EDS (aka HPE) have traditionally provided with custom outsourcing contracts.
> That is before some of these big companies sold off their outsource
> divisions.

It is possible that some outsourcing people like to think about it that way.

But they are totally missing the point.

Cloud and outsourcing are orthogonal aspects.

Cloud is about using another companies hardware.

Outsourcing is about using another companies people.

They can be freely combined.

You can run your own servers with your own IT staff.

You can run AWS instances with your own staff.

You can run your own servers with IBM/TCS/whoever staff.

You can run AWS instances with IBM/TCS/whoever staff.

> Want just DC services? No problem - they will provide a custom quote for
> you.
>
> Same for options where outsourcer provides DC/infrastructure / OS services,
> but Cust does App /DB/middleware layers.
>
> All were previously custom outsourcing contracts.

IaaS is extremely little outsourcing.

PaaS/FaaS/SaaS implies more outsourcing but it is a consequence not the
goal.

>>> When all of the real costs of "Public Cloud" outsourcing is
>>> considered, it becomes pretty clear why many M-L companies are
>>> deciding to go with the "Private Cloud" model whereby they have many
>>> of the same features as a Public Cloud e.g. provisioning on demand,
>>> capacity on demand, but with a much more integrated service model and
>>> with more integrated security that does not require them to manage and
>>> contract out to many and often different outsourcer vendors.
>>
>> Some go for private cloud.
>>
>> Some go for hybrid cloud.
>>
>> But the majority goes for public cloud.
>
> Like outsourcing, its easy for managers to fall into the trap of "why not
> give this XYZ function to another vendor who specializes in managing this
> XYZ function". However, like Outsourcing, Public Cloud vendors and
> proponents will stress "IT lite" things like how much cpu's cost per hour.
> However, the biggest costs (by far) are those costs associated with
> redesigning, implementing and on-going support of a multi-vendor provided
> support model.
>
> When the IT maturity of a M-L company rises to a certain level and gains
> experience with "Public Cloud", they begin to realize that they can
> internally provide the same on demand server VM provisioning developers
> like, with much better integrated security (SOC/NOC / service desk
> integration) than that of a Public Cloud.
>
> Reference:
> Forbes.com: " Why Is Cloud Migration Reversing From Public To On-Premises
> Private Clouds?" - August 2021
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterbendorsamuel/2021/08/10/why-is-cloud-migr
> ation-reversing-from-public-to-on-premises-private-clouds/?sh=4ff3578563cc>
>
> Extracts -
>
> "Increasingly this year, we see many companies that aggressively migrated
> their work from on-premises clouds looking to move work back to on-premises
> and private clouds. The mindset that the public cloud saves money because a
> company only pays for what it uses is just theoretical and really an
> illusion. Realistically, companies tend to buy capacity rather than actual
> time used. Thus, companies are in a take-or-pay situation like the economics
> of a private cloud or on-premises solution."
>
> "However, there was a lot of speculation that at some point, the hyperscale
> cloud provider would start to take greater profits, and economies of scale
> would start to diminish. Both appear to be happening now. This is not
> surprising because we know that it is rational for companies to start to
> emphasize profitability."

It happens.

But in the end the number are pretty clear.

IaaS public cloud market is growing around 25% per year. And it is
expected to continue so for the next 5 years.

Arne

On 3/7/22 13:57, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>
> The problem with that is that VMS isn't easy to manage by current
> standards although it certainly was by the standards of 25 years ago.
>

Simon, I pretty much agreed with what you said except for this one part.

25 years ago I managed Window, Unix and VMS. Had a nice VAX Cluster and
about 100 users. VMS was by far the hardest to manage. I could do Unix
and even windows with no documentation provided by the vendor. VMS was
impossible without The Grey Wall. And, if you had documentation but
found it inadequate there was a wealth of third party documentation
available. lot of it free. What was there for VMS? The Grey Wall.

I had management tools for Windows and Unix like CFengine. For VMS,
I had The Grey Wall. Do I really need to go on? Heck, still had
RSTS running in those days and even it was easier to manage than VMS.

And, the worst part of it is that nothing has changed other than more
and maybe better tools and documentation for Windows and Unix.

bill

=?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 3/6/2022 7:37 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> Hardware is only a small part of it.
>
>No.
>
>Hardware is a very big chunk of a public cloud operation.

You get economies of scale with people, with real estate, with electric
power and with air conditioning, but you don't get so much with the
hardware. You do get some, once you get to the point where the Dell
rep sends you flowers on your birthday, but not enough.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Simon Clubley
>via Info-vax
>Sent: March-07-22 2:58 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Special deals on Tape Drives
>
>On 2022-03-06, abrsvc <dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> How many VMS people know about z/OS ?
>>>
>>> You have just made an argument (in the eyes of management at least)
>>> to get rid of those "strange" VMS boxes and replace them with boxes
>>> that everyone knows how to manage and write software for.
>>>
>>> z/OS has some unique features you can discuss with any management
>>> thinking about getting rid of z/OS. What would you say to that same
>>> management when the discussion turns to VMS ?
>>> Simon.
>>>
>>
>> Yep. Easy to manage, needs little management, doesn't fail. Need more??
>>
>
>The problem with that is that VMS isn't easy to manage by current standards
>although it certainly was by the standards of 25 years ago.
>
>VMS management is still a very manual process, with no patch management
>or notification tools, requires manual error-prone editing of command and
>configuration files, no dependency management architecture, overly complex
>resource management tuning, etc.
>
>Compare that with the tools available for managing Linux and Windows
>systems.
>
>This stuff matters because if you want VMS to survive in today's world, it
>needs to have the management tools that people have come to expect in
>today's world.
>
>Simon.
>

In terms of dependency on config files, have you maintained Linux or Linux
based appliance systems?

Do you think there are not manual config files that need to be maintained?

Of course, there is room for GUI improvements, but if you look at this link,
you will see there is progress being made by VSI:
<https://vmssoftware.com/products/webui/>
<https://vmssoftware.com/openkits/i64opensource/VSI-I64VMS-WEBUI-V0400-2-1-R
ELEASE-NOTES.PDF>

Extract from page:
VSI OpenVMS WebUI connects to your OpenVMS Integrity servers and runs in
your browser. It provides a convenient way to manage your OpenVMS server or
cluster:

- schedule and view batch jobs
- manage licenses
- manage PCSI products installed on your server
- add, modify, and remove users and rights identifiers
- view process info, suspend and resume processes
- view disk information (status, space available, etc.)
- view real-time CPU, memory, I/O statistics, and export them into a file

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com