In article <stumg6.b2k.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
<this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

>
> Indeed the ISPs make it clear,

they do not.

what they do is claim how easy it is to access wifi in 'millions of
locations', to make their product more attractive than their
competitors. they do not make it clear it's implemented via shared
access from their customer's cablemodems. that's intentional.

you have to dig to find out how to disable it, which for non-geeks
isn't a realistic option, and in many cases, not possible because they
don't have their modem's admin password even if they are comfortable
doing so.

In article <stuibn$gfm$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> I've read what others and you said (as I can cure my ignorance)

no such cure exists.

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 15:51:50 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> I've read what others and you said (as I can cure my ignorance)
>
> no such cure exists.

Every day I learn more, while you... well, every day you fabricate more.
Yet you can be forgiven for your fabrications since you have no education.

For example, for this thread by Carlos today I learned a lot of good stuff:
*How do I know what app icon I deleted?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/1UXdVYGSuL4>

I learned how to recover all deleted media, for example, which is nice.
*Unseen Gallery* by Uniperson (rated 4.4 with over 10,000 reviews)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uni.unseengallery.ke>

And, I learned how to recover deleted whatsapp messages, which may be nice.
*Undelete - Recover deleted messages on WhatsApp* (only rated 2.4 though)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tda.undelete>

And I'm hoping to learn a lot more from cell tower triangulation software.
*How can we identify and/or spoof cell triangulation trackers on Android?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/2A_ts2LBMyM>
--
Never stop helping others and never stop learning from them.

On 2/8/2022 12:14 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Indeed the ISPs make it clear, except - apparently - Mr Know-it-All's
> ISP.

LOL, we have a couple of those in this group, not sure which one you're
referring to.

"The only person dumber than 'he-who-knows-it-all' is he who argues with
him."

> And, it gets kind of boring, in the EU it's of course opt *in*.

Perhaps, but the reality is that the Comcast hotspot is separate from
the subscriber's service and it does create a huge number of free Wi-Fi
hotspots that can be useful when traveling. It's kind of crowd-sourcing
Wi-Fi. If it was opt-in you can be sure that almost no one would opt-in.

In article <stumn1$d6r$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> >> I've read what others and you said (as I can cure my ignorance)
> >
> > no such cure exists.
>
> Every day I learn more,

no you very definitely do not.

it's actually the opposite. there's ample evidence that your knowledge
has decreased over time.

In article <stun72$q3v$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> > And, it gets kind of boring, in the EU it's of course opt *in*.
>
> Perhaps, but the reality is that the Comcast hotspot is separate from
> the subscriber's service

it's the same cablemodem that uses the same uplink, sharing the
bandwidth. the only separation is a vlan for the guest network.

> and it does create a huge number of free Wi-Fi
> hotspots that can be useful when traveling. It's kind of crowd-sourcing
> Wi-Fi. If it was opt-in you can be sure that almost no one would opt-in.

exactly why they don't do that. making it the default gives them a
competitive advantage over other isps.

On 2/8/2022 12:59 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:31:03 -0700, AJL wrote:
>
>> I'm fortunate in that I don't have to worry about saving a few
>> dollars a month so that having a rented company modem that updates
>> itself and has "free" service if it fails is worth it to me. But
>> it's a good thing that there are cheaper modems available for
>> those that want or need them...

> In the end, she [Andy's daughter] learned that only an utter idiot
> would do what AJL does.

Better hope that she makes enough in her working life like AJL did so
that she doesn't have to sweat the small stuff in her retirement like
her dad does...

On 2/8/2022 12:41 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <stua3d$q75$1@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Because these Cox supplied company modems allow the general Cox
>>> subscriber base (public) to use your private modem without your
>>> knowledge. Is that really common these days? Dunno...
>>
>> Actually the ISPs make it clear what they're doing
>
> although they technically do disclose it, it's not in a way where
> most people will ever find out, which is intentional because it's a
> value added feature to have wifi available away from home and they
> don't want people to freak out and disable it.
>
>> and it's easy to opt out.
>
> opting out may be easy for geeks who know what to look for, but not
> for average users, who are not comfortable poking around in their
> modem settings.
>
> not only that, but many of them don't know the admin password for
> their modem, which is often not disclosed by the installer, making
> it impossible for them to opt out or make any other change.

My Cox modem has the login name (admin) and password (password) written
on the bottom. But when I opted out I did it on the Cox website. I
haven't checked lately but I imagine it's the same and Cox then does it
remotely. I doubt they want most customers electronically messing with
the Cox modem's innards...

On 2/8/2022 11:25 AM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I'm having trouble understanding what the original Cox complaint is
> about:

There was no complaint. I was just giving info on a 3rd type of hotspot
other than the usual cell phone generated and the retail generated
hotspots. And the times I actually needed and used it I liked the service...

On 2/8/2022 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 9:31 AM, AJL wrote:

>> these Cox supplied company modems allow the general Cox subscriber
>> base (public) to use your private modem without your knowledge. Is
>> that really common these days? Dunno...
>
> Actually the ISPs make it clear what they're doing and it's easy to
> opt out.

I doubt that was Cox's intention. Otherwise it would be opt-in and not
opt-out. My GUESS is that most folks don't even know it exists on their
modem. My grandaughter where I babysat her kids and used her modem with
my Cox account didn't have a clue about it.

My original hotspot notification was buried in other Cox announcements.
My GUESS judging from the large number of Cox hotspots in my area is
that most folks likely missed it.

On 2/8/2022 9:31 AM, AJL wrote:

<snip>

> I'm fortunate in that I don't have to worry about saving a few dollars a
> month so that having a rented company modem that updates itself and has
> "free" service if it fails is worth it to me. But it's a good thing that
> there are cheaper modems available for those that want or need them...

I don't want to sit up at night worrying if Comcast is making enough
money, so I don't pay them any more than necessary. It's not a lot of
money, but I'd rather have that money than to give it to Comcast
unnecessarily. My Netgear modem/router is on the Comcast approved list
and is upgraded by Netgear when necessary.

On 2/8/2022 1:58 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 9:31 AM, AJL wrote:
>
>>> these Cox supplied company modems allow the general Cox subscriber
>>> base (public) to use your private modem without your knowledge. Is
>>> that really common these days? Dunno...
>>
>> Actually the ISPs make it clear what they're doing and it's easy to
>> opt out.
>
> I doubt that was Cox's intention. Otherwise it would be opt-in and not
> opt-out. My GUESS is that most folks don't even know it exists on their
> modem. My grandaughter where I babysat her kids and used her modem with
> my Cox account didn't have a clue about it.
>
> My original hotspot notification was buried in other Cox announcements.
> My GUESS judging from the large number of Cox hotspots in my area is
> that most folks likely missed it.

Yes, it's intentional by the ISPs to not make it so obvious that
subscribers would think to disable it. It doesn't cost the subscriber
any money, it doesn't affect speeds, and it doesn't use any extra
electricity.

In article <stup21$54e$5@dont-email.me>, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> >> these Cox supplied company modems allow the general Cox subscriber
> >> base (public) to use your private modem without your knowledge. Is
> >> that really common these days? Dunno...
> >
> > Actually the ISPs make it clear what they're doing and it's easy to
> > opt out.
>
> I doubt that was Cox's intention. Otherwise it would be opt-in and not
> opt-out. My GUESS is that most folks don't even know it exists on their
> modem.

exactly correct.

> My grandaughter where I babysat her kids and used her modem with
> my Cox account didn't have a clue about it.

that is representative of most customers.

not everyone is a geek. most are not.

> My original hotspot notification was buried in other Cox announcements.
> My GUESS judging from the large number of Cox hotspots in my area is
> that most folks likely missed it.

that is intentional.

In article <stupgm$8qj$2@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> >> Actually the ISPs make it clear what they're doing and it's easy to
> >> opt out.
> >
> > I doubt that was Cox's intention. Otherwise it would be opt-in and not
> > opt-out. My GUESS is that most folks don't even know it exists on their
> > modem. My grandaughter where I babysat her kids and used her modem with
> > my Cox account didn't have a clue about it.
> >
> > My original hotspot notification was buried in other Cox announcements.
> > My GUESS judging from the large number of Cox hotspots in my area is
> > that most folks likely missed it.
>
> Yes, it's intentional by the ISPs to not make it so obvious that
> subscribers would think to disable it.

at least you finally admit that the isps do *not* make it clear.

> It doesn't cost the subscriber
> any money,

it's included in their monthly fees.

> it doesn't affect speeds,

actually, it can.

whatever bandwidth the guests are using is not available to the host.

if the host has a relatively low tier plan, it may be noticeable. if
the host has gigabit, likely not.

> and it doesn't use any extra
> electricity.

it's negligible, but it's not zero.

On 2/8/2022 3:06 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 1:58 PM, AJL wrote:

>> My original hotspot notification was buried in other Cox announcements.
>> My GUESS judging from the large number of Cox hotspots in my area is
>> that most folks likely missed it.
>
> Yes, it's intentional by the ISPs to not make it so obvious that
> subscribers would think to disable it. It doesn't cost the subscriber
> any money, it doesn't affect speeds, and it doesn't use any extra
> electricity.

But it affects paranoia... 8-O

On 2/8/2022 3:03 PM, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 9:31 AM, AJL wrote:

>> I'm fortunate in that I don't have to worry about saving a few
>> dollars a month so that having a rented company modem that updates
>> itself and has "free" service if it fails is worth it to me. But
>> it's a good thing that there are cheaper modems available for those
>> that want or need them...
>
> I don't want to sit up at night worrying if Comcast is making enough
> money, so I don't pay them any more than necessary. It's not a lot of
> money, but I'd rather have that money than to give it to Comcast
> unnecessarily. My Netgear modem/router is on the Comcast approved
> list and is upgraded by Netgear when necessary.

Yup. I repeat from my post above: It's a good thing that
there are cheaper modem deals available for those that want or need them...

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 16:37:39 -0500, nospam wrote:

> no you very definitely do not.

Given that you're almost completely uneducated, you can be forgiven for not
understanding even the slightest of what it takes to earn graduate degrees.

Back to the point, you claim that the cellular signal is being used by apps
to figure out our precise location, right?

How?
--
People who are uneducated don't realize they have to back up their claims.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:58:23 -0700, AJL wrote:

>> I'm having trouble understanding what the original Cox complaint is
>> about:
>
> There was no complaint. I was just giving info on a 3rd type of hotspot
> other than the usual cell phone generated and the retail generated
> hotspots. And the times I actually needed and used it I liked the service...

Fair enough.

Thank you for clarifying as an adult would clarify things on Usenet (which,
itself, is an inherently difficult all-at-once medium for discussion).

I'm happy you provided that information, which I was ignorant about at
first, but then I learned from all the responses that which you know now.

Hence I appreciate the opportunity you provided for me to learn about it.
--
Educated people never stop learning and hence are not afraid of ignorance.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:58:25 -0700, AJL wrote:

> My GUESS is that most folks don't even know it exists on their
> modem.

Yet _another_ good reason to purchase your own cable modem.

If you are the one paying rent on that modem, you sure as hell should have
the option of whether others can use it, for free (without your consent).

Not only do you "make money" off the modem (by not paying for the initial
installation charge and for not paying the monthly rent), you _also_ get the
option to _not_ have the cable modem company allow others to use your modem.

On 2/8/2022 4:17 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> If you are the one paying rent on that modem, you sure as hell should
> have the option of whether others can use it, for free (without your
> consent).

I do and I have opted out (as stated in earlier posts)...

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:58:19 -0700, AJL wrote:

>> In the end, she [Andy's daughter] learned that only an utter idiot
>> would do what AJL does.
>
> Better hope that she makes enough in her working life like AJL did so
> that she doesn't have to sweat the small stuff in her retirement like
> her dad does...

It's not free if it costs you a thousand dollars for that "free" service.

You can justify your comments all you want as it's your right to blindlessly
waste your money (we don't care); but what matters is _why_ you waste money.

You said, and I quote:
"I'm fortunate in that I don't have to worry about saving a few
dollars a month so that having a rented company modem that updates
itself and has free service if it fails is worth it to me."

First of all, you do _not_ get "free service" since you pay for the service
up front (the $50 installation fee) and you pay each & every month. So it's
_not_ free service, and, in fact, it's extremely expensive service overall.

Notice that you don't even understand what I just said (which I understand).

I said that the savings are appreciable, over a ten year time frame and five
moves (on average?) for kids just getting their degrees in that time frame.
a. Renting the modem = 5x$50 service charge + $10/month is $1,450
b. Buying the modem = $150 (there are no service charges when you move)

I don't think you will ever understand that the "free service" you claim
exists actually costs you, over that time period, about a thousand dollars.

Hence, it's _wrong_ for you to claim it's "free service" when it's really
service that costs you about a hundred dollars (or so) each & every year.

Hence, you're wrong.
But you won't ever understand that and I understand that you won't get it.

And that's fine.
a. You teach your grandchildren to think the way that you think.
b. And I'll teach mine to think using basic math such as that I used above.
--
It's not free if it costs you a thousand dollars for that "free" service.

In article <stut7u$12be$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
<spam@nospam.com> wrote:

> Back to the point, you claim that the cellular signal is being used by apps
> to figure out our precise location, right?

nope. what i said was that there are many ways for a phone to determine
its location, among which includes cellular.

typically, an app requests location and the os will use one or more of
the available options, depending on the desired precision, power
management, acquisition speed and various other factors.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 16:22:38 -0700, AJL wrote:

>> If you are the one paying rent on that modem, you sure as hell should
>> have the option of whether others can use it, for free (without your
>> consent).
>
> I do and I have opted out (as stated in earlier posts)...

And I agree with your decision.

If you're paying for that modem each and every month, then you should have
the option of what the cable company does with that modem outside of your
account.

I agree with you.

If they gave you that cable modem "for free", that would be a different
story as they need to make their money back somehow, and allowing others to
use your modem might be one way that they can justify giving it to you for
free.

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 14:03:23 -0800, sms wrote:

> It's not a lot of
> money, but I'd rather have that money than to give it to Comcast
> unnecessarily.

I calculated it was well over a thousand dollars saved over ten years, so
while I agree that's not a lot of money, I'm with you on not fueling
Comcast's profits unnecessarily so.

Where I live, I don't even have a choice of cable or not, but I've outfitted
kids who have gotten their first off campus apartments, and it's one of the
first lessons I taught them (which is to make capital work for you).

a. Spend $150 up front for a Costco cable modem
b. You _instantly_ save $50 on installation (so now it costs only $100)
c. Then you _instantly_ save $10 in that first month (so it cost you $90)

Nine months later, that capital expenditure starts "making" you $10/month.

> My Netgear modem/router is on the Comcast approved list
> and is upgraded by Netgear when necessary.

At the time the cable company said and Docsys 3.0 modem would work fine.

The only question I have is the Costco item #774054 SB6141 Arris cable
modems I bought these kids years ago were Docsys 3.0 & not Docsys 3.1.

Are you sure the cable company will upgrade that?
(Is it even possible to upgrade the Docsys version?)

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:20:47 -0700, AJL wrote:

> Yup. I repeat from my post above: It's a good thing that
> there are cheaper modem deals available for those that want or need them...

To your credit you did astutely specify that the cable company updates the
modem for you, which I agree, if that update is substantial, it's a nicety.

The only question I have is the Costco item #774054 SB6141 Arris cable
modems I bought these kids years ago were Docsys 3.0 (& not Docsys 3.1).

Does anyone know if it's even possible to update a modem from 3.0 to 3.1?