In misc.phone.mobile.iphone Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
....
> >> I guess I'm bitching about the same thing(s) that everyone else is
> >> bitching about -- we've got something that works now and we don't want
> >> to have to jump through a lot of new hoops just to accomplish the same
> >> old thing. ESPECIALLY since it seems to offer no particular advantage
> >> over what already exists.
> >
> >It is the typical behavior of old people.

> I'm an old person--84.

> >Do not want to learn new
> >things, want to keep doing things the old way.

> I have no problem learning new things and I work at learning new
> things every day. But I don't want to take the time and make the
> effort to learn something new unless I'm convinced that it has a real
> advantage for me.

Ditto.
--
Happy busy? international women's day! Weird/Odd night for me. Kept waking up to pee and poop (thrice so far) and a weird nest party dream with naked people. :I
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Am 08.03.22 um 21:26 schrieb Rob:
> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 16:26:14 +0100, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 8:49 AM, Rob wrote:
>>>>> J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 at 10:14:35, Rob <nomail@example.com> wrote (my
>>>>>> responses usually FOLLOW):
>>>>>>> J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I collect my email on one device (this computer), and manually move
>>>>>>>> emails into folders occasionally. (Actually, I do have some
>>>>>>>> autorouteing.) I do backups. For me, the touted advantages of IMAP are
>>>>>>>> zero.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It means that when you are away, you are not able to access your mail.
>>>>>>> Of course when you never leave the home for e.g. a holiday, that does
>>>>>>> not matter. But lots of people do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I take this computer with me, and continue to collect by POP when away;
>>>>>> I don't notice any difference (to email; news varies slightly).
>>>>>
>>>>> You go on holiday taking your entire archive of previously sent and
>>>>> received messages with you???
>>>>> Don't forget to pack your backup drive as well!
>>>>
>>>> The individuals in question, use USB sticks for portable
>>>> backup. Until they get to their home base and do something else.
>>>
>>> I am more worried about their device and/or backup media getting stolen
>>> and all their private data ending up in the wrong hands.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I've known more than one person who has had his laptop stolen
>> when traveling.
>
> In that case you would be happy when the computer did not contain
> a copy of all e-mail, but this resides safely on the IMAP server,
> protected by a password.

*SIC*

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 08.03.22 um 18:32 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t082kh.16j0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
> Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> I collect my email on one device (this computer), and manually move
>>>> emails into folders occasionally. (Actually, I do have some
>>>> autorouteing.) I do backups. For me, the touted advantages of IMAP are
>>>> zero.
>>>
>>> You do not understand the concept of IMAP and obviously the value of
>>> your time and the security of your mails has a value of zero for you.
>>>
>>> Poor John!
>>
>> Poor Joerg! Hasn't a clue that e-mail is just information/data. Guess
>> how all that *other* information/data is kept secure? IMAP is doing
>> diddly squat for that!
>
> actually, it is doing quite a bit. imap requires login credentials to
> access email, whereas the local hd/ssd does not unless it's encrypted,
> which at least for windows, is not that common. backup drives (usb
> stick, external hd/ssd) are also generally not encrypted. if the laptop
> and/or external media is lost or stolen, everything is exposed.

The way he reacted let me doubt that he will understand what you say.
There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
professionally managed server.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 08.03.22 um 21:35 schrieb Ant:
> In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:34:09 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>> <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>
>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 at 12:02:47, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
>>> (my responses usually FOLLOW):
>>>> On 3/6/2022 8:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Regardless of whether you use IMAP or POP3, if you do regular backups,
>>>>> it is ALSO on the backup media. If you don't do regular backups to
>>>>> eternal media, you're playing with fire, and not just for that reason.
>>>>> So as far as I'm concerned, that's not a big advantage of IMAP.
>>>>> I use IMAP, but to me there's no real advantage to using it.
>>>>
>>>> OMG, I don't think anyone still uses POP3. The advantages of IMAP are
>>>> enormous.
>>>
>>> I collect my email on one device (this computer),
>
>
>> Same for me, except when I travel and read it on my phone (I almost
>> never travel anymore; I think those days are behind me).
>
> Same here. I keep my e-mails locally. I do use IMAP when I go out so I
> can download my e-mails later at home.

What?

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 2022-03-08 16:01, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> WE don't. Most people don't. It is a feature we do want.
>
> I'm well aware of what Carlos claims is true, and I do believe him.
> a. Most people are incredibly lazy, as is Carlos by his own admission
> b. *That's why MARKETING can lead them by the nose, as a sheep to
> slaughter*
> c. Most people hand _your_ kids's contacts & yours to those MARKETING
> groups

Wrong.

I have done my assessment and took the decision to do what I do.
Intentionally.

Don't resort to insults, Arlen.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> I have done my assessment and took the decision to do what I do.
> Intentionally.

Did you _ask_ each of your contacts if _they_ wanted you to upload their
private information to the web, where it _will_ be hacked, rest assured?

If the answer is "no", then it's _rude_ to upload their contacts to the net.

Besides, what app actually requires the contacts to be uploaded anyway?
--
If you're intelligent, you do _not_ do what MARKETING wants you to do.

On 2022-03-08 23:55, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> I have done my assessment and took the decision to do what I do.
>> Intentionally.
>
> Did you _ask_ each of your contacts if _they_ wanted you to upload their
> private information to the web, where it _will_ be hacked, rest assured?
>
> If the answer is "no", then it's _rude_ to upload their contacts to the
> net.
>
> Besides, what app actually requires the contacts to be uploaded anyway?

I live in Europe. The data protection laws here prohibit that, so it is
not happening.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote

| > imap can easily download email to your computer.
| | Can it? How do you configure it to do that? I thought that if you received
| your email by IMAP it never left the server, apart from when the client
| downloads a transient copy of it to read, which was erased when you closed
| the mail app.
| | What is the big advantage of IMAP over POP?
|

IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
what makes most sense for those uses. Originally all email
was downloaded to a client and then deleted from the
server. People were not allowed to have much space on
the server. Then with webmail and targetted advertising
the idea was to be able to read your email in a browser. In
order to act like a real software client, the email needed
to be stored online. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to look
at yesterday's email.

If you use client software it shouldn't matter. I think
both can be deleted from the server, and a client will
download locally. IMAP offers nothing that's needed for
"real" email. Folders and such are in the client, not on
the server.

I like POP3 just because I'm used to it
and have a superstition about IMAP not being truly deletable.
(Which gmail is not.) Sometimes it also makes sense to
set up different programs on different computers. For
instance, if I set up email on a laptop I set it up to leave
it on the server, so that I always have a copy downloaded
to my main PC. If I ever decided to read email on a cellphone
I'd also set that to leave it on the server. While on my main
PC I set it to delete the email from the server. I'm not "mobile"
in the sense of having no physical base. My data are all based
on my home computer and backed up from there. I don't use
any web-based software. So I neither want nor need data
stored online.

Some people are just so used to webmail and cellphones
that, for them, all email is online and most computing is online.
For many of those people online storage makes the most sense,
because they'll read it from different locations. And in the case
of business email they may not be allowed to delete it from the
server.

On 09/03/2022 at 13:36, Mayayana wrote:
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote
>
> | > imap can easily download email to your computer.
> |
> | Can it? How do you configure it to do that? I thought that if you received
> | your email by IMAP it never left the server, apart from when the client
> | downloads a transient copy of it to read, which was erased when you closed
> | the mail app.
> |
> | What is the big advantage of IMAP over POP?
> |
>
> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
> what makes most sense for those uses. Originally all email
> was downloaded to a client and then deleted from the
> server. People were not allowed to have much space on
> the server. Then with webmail and targetted advertising
> the idea was to be able to read your email in a browser. In
> order to act like a real software client, the email needed
> to be stored online. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to look
> at yesterday's email.
>
> If you use client software it shouldn't matter. I think
> both can be deleted from the server, and a client will
> download locally. IMAP offers nothing that's needed for
> "real" email. Folders and such are in the client, not on
> the server.
>
> I like POP3 just because I'm used to it
> and have a superstition about IMAP not being truly deletable.
> (Which gmail is not.) Sometimes it also makes sense to
> set up different programs on different computers. For
> instance, if I set up email on a laptop I set it up to leave
> it on the server, so that I always have a copy downloaded
> to my main PC. If I ever decided to read email on a cellphone
> I'd also set that to leave it on the server. While on my main
> PC I set it to delete the email from the server. I'm not "mobile"
> in the sense of having no physical base. My data are all based
> on my home computer and backed up from there. I don't use
> any web-based software. So I neither want nor need data
> stored online.
>
> Some people are just so used to webmail and cellphones
> that, for them, all email is online and most computing is online.
> For many of those people online storage makes the most sense,
> because they'll read it from different locations. And in the case
> of business email they may not be allowed to delete it from the
> server.
>
>

I don't know. I use IMAP for multiple accounts from multiple platforms
(Google, Microsoft, BT) on my iPhone, iPad, and Windows laptop
(Thunderbird). Any changes I make on one, e.g., add a mail folder, move
or delete an email, are reflected in the others. Equally, read/unread
mail status is identical on all platforms. So, just from my experience,
I'd say IMAP was very much designed for reading and manipulating email
in client software.

--
Wilf

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:36:56 -0500
"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote
>
> | > imap can easily download email to your computer.
> |
> | Can it? How do you configure it to do that? I thought that if you
> received | your email by IMAP it never left the server, apart from
> when the client | downloads a transient copy of it to read, which was
> erased when you closed | the mail app.
> |
> | What is the big advantage of IMAP over POP?
> |
>
> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
> what makes most sense for those uses. Originally all email
> was downloaded to a client and then deleted from the
> server. People were not allowed to have much space on
> the server. Then with webmail and targetted advertising
> the idea was to be able to read your email in a browser. In
> order to act like a real software client, the email needed
> to be stored online. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to look
> at yesterday's email.
>
> If you use client software it shouldn't matter. I think
> both can be deleted from the server, and a client will
> download locally. IMAP offers nothing that's needed for
> "real" email. Folders and such are in the client, not on
> the server.
>
> I like POP3 just because I'm used to it
> and have a superstition about IMAP not being truly deletable.
> (Which gmail is not.) Sometimes it also makes sense to
> set up different programs on different computers. For
> instance, if I set up email on a laptop I set it up to leave
> it on the server, so that I always have a copy downloaded
> to my main PC. If I ever decided to read email on a cellphone
> I'd also set that to leave it on the server. While on my main
> PC I set it to delete the email from the server. I'm not "mobile"
> in the sense of having no physical base. My data are all based
> on my home computer and backed up from there. I don't use
> any web-based software. So I neither want nor need data
> stored online.
>
> Some people are just so used to webmail and cellphones
> that, for them, all email is online and most computing is online.
> For many of those people online storage makes the most sense,
> because they'll read it from different locations. And in the case
> of business email they may not be allowed to delete it from the
> server.
>
>

I have an IMAP Email account with ProtonMail that cost fifty dollars a
year. It's encrypted, and ProtonMail claims they can't even read it.

I also have a POP3 Email account with AT&T, and like you I like the
POP3 for daily use.

I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to have an Email account with
Google.

In article <t0aaif$u46$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
<mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | What is the big advantage of IMAP over POP?
> |
>
> IMAP is designed for webmail.

imap began life in the 1980s, long before webmail was even an idea, let
alone an actual thing, designed to go beyond the limitations of pop.

webmail came much later, and is nothing more than an implementation of
a mail client in a browser.

> POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software.

pop was designed for only one client, which made sense long ago.

things have changed since then. these days, people have multiple
devices and want to access the same content from any of them, which
means pop is very much the wrong choice.

> Each defaults to being
> what makes most sense for those uses. Originally all email
> was downloaded to a client and then deleted from the
> server. People were not allowed to have much space on
> the server.

true.

> Then with webmail and targetted advertising
> the idea was to be able to read your email in a browser. In
> order to act like a real software client, the email needed
> to be stored online.

imap has nothing to do with webmail, nor does webmail mean advertising.

webmail is simply an email client implemented in a browser, which like
everything, has advantages and disadvantages.

> Otherwise you wouldn't be able to look
> at yesterday's email.

that's something many people do, and not just from yesterday either.

> If you use client software it shouldn't matter. I think
> both can be deleted from the server, and a client will
> download locally.

both imap and pop can do that.

> IMAP offers nothing that's needed for
> "real" email. Folders and such are in the client, not on
> the server.

imap offers a lot of things for 'real' email, including folders, which
*are* on the server. imap folders can also be created locally, but
that's not often done.

pop does not support folders, however, they might be part of an email
client.

> I like POP3 just because I'm used to it
> and have a superstition about IMAP not being truly deletable.

that is definitely a superstition.

email can easily be 'truly deleted' with both pop and imap. it has to
be, or the servers would eventually fill to capacity.

> (Which gmail is not.)

false. it's possible to 'truly delete' email with gmail, which is just
one email provider and not what defines imap or pop.

keep in mind that gmail can also be accessed via pop and imap using an
email app, in addition to a browser.

> Sometimes it also makes sense to
> set up different programs on different computers. For
> instance, if I set up email on a laptop I set it up to leave
> it on the server, so that I always have a copy downloaded
> to my main PC.

exactly the situation for which imap was designed!

> If I ever decided to read email on a cellphone
> I'd also set that to leave it on the server. While on my main
> PC I set it to delete the email from the server. I'm not "mobile"
> in the sense of having no physical base. My data are all based
> on my home computer and backed up from there. I don't use
> any web-based software. So I neither want nor need data
> stored online.

web-based software is not the only reason for storing content online.

> Some people are just so used to webmail and cellphones
> that, for them, all email is online and most computing is online.

most computing is online, not just email and not just phones either.

> For many of those people online storage makes the most sense,
> because they'll read it from different locations. And in the case
> of business email they may not be allowed to delete it from the
> server.

it doesn't matter if they delete it, since businesses will archive it
upstream.

On 9 Mar 2022 at 2:39:25 PM, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

> I have an IMAP Email account with ProtonMail that cost fifty dollars a
> year. It's encrypted, and ProtonMail claims they can't even read it.

Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
--
Cheers, Rob

On 9 Mar 2022 at 1:36:56 PM, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> IMAP is designed for webmail.

No it wasn't.

Why would you say such a thing?

--
Cheers, Rob

In article <t0ahog$1kao$1@gioia.aioe.org>, RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>
> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?

there was, and there was a lot more to that story.

On 3/9/2022 2:50 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Besides, what app actually requires the contacts to be uploaded anyway?
>
> I live in Europe. The data protection laws here prohibit that, so it is
> not happening.

Are you sure of that?
I thought Google syncs updated contacts across all devices.
How do you have contacts in Europe without that?

Am 09.03.22 um 16:40 schrieb RJH:
> On 9 Mar 2022 at 2:39:25 PM, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>> I have an IMAP Email account with ProtonMail that cost fifty dollars a
>> year. It's encrypted, and ProtonMail claims they can't even read it.
>
> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?

On a court order, you idiot.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 09.03.22 um 14:36 schrieb Mayayana:
> IMAP is designed for webmail. POP3 is designed for
> reading email in client software. Each defaults to being
> what makes most sense for those uses.

What?
You have absolutely no clue about both protocols.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

In article <t0ai8v$op0$3@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> > Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
>
> On a court order, you idiot.

in particular, they complied with swiss law to *begin* logging someone
and after failing to appeal the request.

<https://www.wired.com/story/protonmail-amends-policy-after-giving-up-ac
tivists-data/>
As usual, the devil is in the details‹ProtonMail's original policy
simply said that the service does not keep IP logs "by default."
However, as a Swiss company, ProtonMail was obliged to comply
with a Swiss court's demand that it begin logging IP address and
browser fingerprint information for a particular ProtonMail account.
....
ProtonMail is also careful to point out that, although its user's IP
address and browser fingerprint were collected by Swiss authorities
acting on behalf of Interpol, the company's guarantees of email
content privacy were not breached.

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 08.03.22 um 18:32 schrieb nospam:
> > In article <t082kh.16j0.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
> > Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

[Earlier attributions - J. P. Gilliver (John) and Joerg Lorenz - deleted
by the silent-snipper.]

> >>>> I collect my email on one device (this computer), and manually move
> >>>> emails into folders occasionally. (Actually, I do have some
> >>>> autorouteing.) I do backups. For me, the touted advantages of IMAP are
> >>>> zero.
> >>>
> >>> You do not understand the concept of IMAP and obviously the value of
> >>> your time and the security of your mails has a value of zero for you.
> >>>
> >>> Poor John!
> >>
> >> Poor Joerg! Hasn't a clue that e-mail is just information/data. Guess
> >> how all that *other* information/data is kept secure? IMAP is doing
> >> diddly squat for that!
> >
> > actually, it is doing quite a bit. imap requires login credentials to
> > access email, whereas the local hd/ssd does not unless it's encrypted,
> > which at least for windows, is not that common. backup drives (usb
> > stick, external hd/ssd) are also generally not encrypted. if the laptop
> > and/or external media is lost or stolen, everything is exposed.
>
> The way he reacted let me doubt that he will understand what you say.

Well, as I noted in another response, he didn't even understand what I
wrote, so be careful whose company you choose.

> There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> professionally managed server.

True, but not all email (and others) servers are professionally
managed and even if they are, you still need to have local copies of
your email/data if you need access to them when there's no network
available or feasible.

And you need backup of your email/data, because relying on just a
single copy of your email/data is foolish.

So you *still* need to secure and backup the email/data on the
laptop/server(s), so, whether you use IMAP or POP, those problems
remain.

Thanks for playing.

EOD.

Am 09.03.22 um 16:58 schrieb nospam:
> In article <t0ai8v$op0$3@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>
>>> Wasn't there a news story where protonmail exposed one of its users?
>>
>> On a court order, you idiot.
>
> in particular, they complied with swiss law to *begin* logging someone
> and after failing to appeal the request.
>
> <https://www.wired.com/story/protonmail-amends-policy-after-giving-up-ac
> tivists-data/>
> As usual, the devil is in the details‹ProtonMail's original policy
> simply said that the service does not keep IP logs "by default."
> However, as a Swiss company, ProtonMail was obliged to comply
> with a Swiss court's demand that it begin logging IP address and
> browser fingerprint information for a particular ProtonMail account.
> ...
> ProtonMail is also careful to point out that, although its user's IP
> address and browser fingerprint were collected by Swiss authorities
> acting on behalf of Interpol, the company's guarantees of email
> content privacy were not breached.

Protonmail is utter nonsense. At the very beginning I was taking part in
the crowd funding for ProtonMail.

After a severe hack I became aware that a lot of their claims are
marketing. And beyond that: The company is Swiss and has to comply with
Swiss legislation.

E-Mail is the wrong way for confidential communication. Full Stop and
nothing to add.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 22:30:40 +0100, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch>
wrote:

>There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
>professionally managed server.

I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
but not all of them.

Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On Wed, 9 Mar 2022 08:39:25 -0600, Johnny <johnny@invalid.net> wrote:

>I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to have an Email account with
>Google.

"Stupid enough"? That's a very brash statement which is undoubtedly
insulting to many people, including me.

I have a Gmail account. It's not my main e-mail account, and I use it
only to receive unimportant advertising mail. I never use it to send
mail, but it's also there as backup to my main e-mail account, just in
case it goes down for some reason.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

In message <t0aaif$u46$1@dont-email.me> Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> IMAP is designed for webmail.

Absolutely redicullous, IMAP has been around far longer than the web.

> POP3 is designed for reading email in client software.

"in client software" WTF does that mean?

POP3 is designed for reading mail on a single device. It was suitable for
a system where you logged in to a specific computer and read mil there.

IMAP is designed for reading email on multiple devices and being able to
keep that email in sync. It has many advantages of POP3 and POP3 has NO
advatanges over IMAP because IMAP can be used in a way that replicates
POP exactly, while the same cannot be said of POP3.

> Each defaults to being what makes most sense for those uses.

Ther is absolutely no reason for anyone to be using POP3. It offers zero
advantages over IMAP and zero features over IMAP.

> Originally all email was downloaded to a client and then deleted from
> the server. People were not allowed to have much space on the server.
> Then with webmail

Webmail has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Nothing. I've been using
IMAP exclusively for over 20 years and I do not read email in a
browser, I can, of course, but I don't.

> If you use client software it shouldn't matter.

Of course it matters. If you have multiple devices, POP is a fucking
nightmare. I routinely read my mail on 4 different computers: a desktop,
a laptop, a tablet, and a phone. Managing that with POP is so close to
impossible as makes no difference.

I often start a reply to an email on my phone, realize I have more to
type than I thought, and finish the mail on my laptop or desktop. This is
impossible with POP.

Again, there is *nothing* that POP3 ofers that cannot be done with IMAP
and there are many things that can be done in IMAP that cannot be
replicated in POP3. Ergo, no reason to ever use POP3.

--
Ninjas don't hug!

In article <t0anga.15hc.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank
Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> > professionally managed server.
>
> True, but not all email (and others) servers are professionally
> managed

just about all of them are.

> and even if they are, you still need to have local copies of
> your email/data if you need access to them when there's no network
> available or feasible.

only to read/reply offline. if that's not important, then there is no
need for a local copy, although most email apps cache, so you get that
anyway.

> And you need backup of your email/data, because relying on just a
> single copy of your email/data is foolish.

the email provider backs it up extensively than anything an end user
can possibly do, including multiple redundant drives and geographically
distributed locations.

> So you *still* need to secure and backup the email/data on the
> laptop/server(s), so, whether you use IMAP or POP, those problems
> remain.

more copies is always a good thing, but it's not as important as you
make it out to be, especially given that it's backed up by the email
provider.

In article <ckmh2h93iob1c9a2ojt5fhn7i8b9q59f87@4ax.com>, Ken Blake
<Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> >There is no safer place for emails and personal data than on a
> >professionally managed server.
>
>
> I disagree. It depends on who owns that "professionally managed
> server." It may be very safe on many of them, maybe even most of them,
> but not all of them.

easy solution: us email providers that are professionally managed.

nothing is 100%, but the risk that an email provider would lose mail is
*extremely* low, much lower than if someone manages it on their own.

> Another very safe place (safer, in at least some cases) is on multiple
> generations of backup media in a bank's safe deposit box.

that too incurs a risk. media can fail and a natural disaster can
destroy the bank's building and its contents.

it's also impossible to have an up-to-date copy of email stored in a
bank vault (or anything, for that matter).