"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>Another mark are dreams. I do dream in English some times.

To be able to separate words one hears, it is important to /know/
many words (that is, to know the /sounds/ of many words). When
one knows a word and then hears it, it's probable that to the
left and to the right of the word, there is a word boundary. So
one also has half-identified the boundaries of two other words.

So, language teachers sometimes say: Vocabulary, vocabulary,
vocabulary!

In German, it might be a bit easier, because when a word starts
with a vowel in writing, in speaking, a glottal plosive is added
in front of the vowel to explicitly mark the beginning of a
new word. However, when one has identified a word and then does
not know what it means, the identification does not help much.

Some claim that if you are stubborn enough, you can learn
a new language just by hearing material intensively. Say,
watch TV shows in that language all day long. The first few
days, you will not understand anything, then your brain will
slowly start to identify patterns, "Haven't I head that one
before?", "What could it mean?", "The man said this after
accidentally stepping on someone's foot.", ...

On 2023-02-14 17:35, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> Another mark are dreams. I do dream in English some times.
>
> To be able to separate words one hears, it is important to /know/
> many words (that is, to know the /sounds/ of many words). When
> one knows a word and then hears it, it's probable that to the
> left and to the right of the word, there is a word boundary. So
> one also has half-identified the boundaries of two other words.
>
> So, language teachers sometimes say: Vocabulary, vocabulary,
> vocabulary!

Absolutely.

One thing that happens to me, when watching movies mostly, is that if I
don't understand a word, my "parser" gets out of sync and misses several
words till it engages again.

>
> In German, it might be a bit easier, because when a word starts
> with a vowel in writing, in speaking, a glottal plosive is added
> in front of the vowel to explicitly mark the beginning of a
> new word. However, when one has identified a word and then does
> not know what it means, the identification does not help much.
>
> Some claim that if you are stubborn enough, you can learn
> a new language just by hearing material intensively. Say,
> watch TV shows in that language all day long. The first few
> days, you will not understand anything, then your brain will
> slowly start to identify patterns, "Haven't I head that one
> before?", "What could it mean?", "The man said this after
> accidentally stepping on someone's foot.", ...

A very young boy certainly can learn that way. And adult, less so, but
eventually...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2/13/23 8:55 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:58:19 -0600, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Listening to a foreign language is a lot harder than reading and
>>> writing. You can read and write at whatever speed you're comfortable
>>> with, but you have to listen at the speaker's speed.
>>
>>The biggest problem with listening is knowing where words start and end.
>>When speaking, words just keep flowing, so they sound like one
>>continuous utterance until the speaker runs out of breath.
>>
>>What you read:
>>Go to the next station, get off, and head straight out the front door.
>>
>>What you hear:
>>Gotothenextstation getoff andheadstraightoutthedoor.

It's easier to get the first and last words in a proclamation; the rest
is iffy.

> When the language in question is German, sometimes the words are
> actually as long as they appear to be.

Somewhere I have a picture of a shop with a really long complex German
name. The caption: Why Germans don't play Scrabble.

--
Cheers, Bev
I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture
us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

On 2/13/23 1:32 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are you by any chance a native English speaker, or did you learn it as
>>>> a second language?
>>>
>>> Nope. Born in the USA. Parents were born here. Grandparents, too,
>>> and great grandparents.
>>
>> I remember asking you that exact same question quite a few years ago
>> in one of the Win groups. I asked because you frequently use a
>> sentence structure that I find jarring. All of the words are there,
>> but they're in an unusual order. I assumed you were simply mentally
>> translating another language to English, but I guess not.
>
> Ever have your English/Composition teacher condemn the use of sentences
> that end with a preposition, like they say to never end a sentence with
> the word "with"?
>
> Never end a sentence with a preposition unless there is nothing else
> to end it with.
> Never end a sentence with a preposition unless with which there is
> nothing else to end it.

"...something up with which I cannot put."

> The last one is clunky. Sometimes when you try to get the grammar
> correct (versus the underlying linguistics), you'll sound like Yoda.
> Grammar attempts to put structure atop of linguistics, but sometimes
> grammar fails.

Sometimes the proper usage of "whom" and "to whom" sounds ridiculously
stilted. I'll use "who" then, but it makes me uncomfortable.

> Often I omit "I" at the start of a sentence, because lots of continguous
> sentences would all be "I this", "I that", and "I whatever. I may even
> deliberately violate grammar to better relate my meaning.

Yes. Writing is an art as well as... whatever else it is.

> Sometimes
> I've been tricky in construct when replying to someone that I want to
> insult, but not be obvious. They'll respond with an angry reply, I tell
> them to reread my reply, they decide I wasn't insulting them, but I was.

:-)

--
Cheers, Bev
"To liberals, building a wall across the Mexican border is a
violation of the Voting Rights Act." -- Ann Coulter

On 2/13/23 1:40 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-13 22:12, The Real Bev wrote:

>> OK, same question our of sheer curiosity:  Your English is perfect.  Did
>> you learn English as a second language or did you grow up speaking it?
>
> I started learning maybe when I was twelve. My father insisted, and I
> hated it. My father taught me, and two of my friends, one summer. My two
> pals soon ran away (even though they got the lessons gratis), but I
> wasn't permitted to run.
>
> So I learned...

Parents get it right sometimes. Learning a second language teaches you
a lot about your first one. Apparently it's good for your brain too.
Like learning a musical instrument.

> At the time, schools started to teach one foreign language. Most
> students choose French, being easier. Most of them thought stupid to
> learn a language. Except those that later worked in the tourism sector.

Southern California -- Spanish is the preferred language, although
Mandarin seems to be popular now. I did two years each of French and
Spanish and one year of Latin in high school (9th-12th years). I did
well in all, but two years is not enough. Two more years in college
isn't enough either. We tried Mandarin for a while, but the intonation
business was so daunting we gave it up.

I also tried Italian with Duolingo but stopped after several weeks
because I didn't really have a reason to keep on. I really like
Duolingo -- In addition to the way it leads you through the lessons you
can interrupt and see conjugations, tenses etc. Probably declensions
(shudder) too -- that's why I quit German :-(

> I was sent a month to Britain on four years for practicing. I was a
> ravenous reader, so I bought English books, mostly from Enid Blyton. I
> cheated, I claimed I was studying English, not enjoying a novel :-D
>
> But yes, my vocabulary and writing skills comes from that.

When we were in Paris our hosts told us that anyone who claims they
can't speak English is either lying or stupid -- it was required in
school EVERY year.

> I also went to a College in Ottawa, later. Electronics. One subject was
> English, aka Technical Writing. The teacher once told me that I was
> better than the locals. I was utterly astonished.

The best proofreader I ever knew was a Dutch woman. She knew about
stuff that I had never considered an error! Humiliating.

> But my listening skills are not that good. I need help with subtitles in
> order to follow the 100% of the movies. Without that help I miss a
> percent. Not with a direct conversation with a person, then I get almost
> all, at least after I get used to their accent.

It gets worse with age. I'm now having trouble with ENGLISH, especially
regarding the variety of British accents :-(

--
Cheers, Bev
"To liberals, building a wall across the Mexican border is a
violation of the Voting Rights Act." -- Ann Coulter

On 2023-02-15 22:21, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 2/13/23 1:40 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-13 22:12, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>>> OK, same question our of sheer curiosity:  Your English is perfect.
>>> Did you learn English as a second language or did you grow up
>>> speaking it?
>>
>> I started learning maybe when I was twelve. My father insisted, and I
>> hated it. My father taught me, and two of my friends, one summer. My two
>> pals soon ran away (even though they got the lessons gratis), but I
>> wasn't permitted to run.
>>
>> So I learned...
>
> Parents get it right sometimes.  Learning a second language teaches you
> a lot about your first one.  Apparently it's good for your brain too.
> Like learning a musical instrument.

Ah, music. At that I failed. I did try piano and guitar, can do neither.

>
>> At the time, schools started to teach one foreign language. Most
>> students choose French, being easier. Most of them thought stupid to
>> learn a language. Except those that later worked in the tourism sector.
>
> Southern California -- Spanish is the preferred language, although
> Mandarin seems to be popular now.  I did two years each of French and
> Spanish and one year of Latin in high school (9th-12th years).  I did
> well in all, but two years is not enough.  Two more years in college
> isn't enough either.  We tried Mandarin for a while, but the intonation
> business was so daunting we gave it up.
>
> I also tried Italian with Duolingo but stopped after several weeks
> because I didn't really have a reason to keep on.  I really like
> Duolingo -- In addition to the way it leads you through the lessons you
> can interrupt and see conjugations, tenses etc.  Probably declensions
> (shudder) too -- that's why I quit German :-(
>
>> I was sent a month to Britain on four years for practicing. I was a
>> ravenous reader, so I bought English books, mostly from Enid Blyton. I
>> cheated, I claimed I was studying English, not enjoying a novel :-D
>>
>> But yes, my vocabulary and writing skills comes from that.
>
> When we were in Paris our hosts told us that anyone who claims they
> can't speak English is either lying or stupid -- it was required in
> school EVERY year.

{chuckle}

I know people who worked in hotels or bars that learned some English or
French. They needed it.

>
>> I also went to a College in Ottawa, later. Electronics. One subject was
>> English, aka Technical Writing. The teacher once told me that I was
>> better than the locals. I was utterly astonished.
>
> The best proofreader I ever knew was a Dutch woman.  She knew about
> stuff that I had never considered an error!  Humiliating.

:-)

>> But my listening skills are not that good. I need help with subtitles in
>> order to follow the 100% of the movies. Without that help I miss a
>> percent. Not with a direct conversation with a person, then I get almost
>> all, at least after I get used to their accent.
>
> It gets worse with age.  I'm now having trouble with ENGLISH, especially
> regarding  the variety of British accents :-(

That's somehow a bit comforting ;-)

When I watch some thrillers, at the end I have to recognize that I
understood basically nothing. :-}

--
Cheers, Carlos.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sometimes the proper usage of "whom" and "to whom" sounds ridiculously
> stilted. I'll use "who" then, but it makes me uncomfortable.

The only rule that I found memorable is to think who as he and whom as
him. In a sentence, determine whether saying he or him seems more
proper.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> It gets worse with age. I'm now having trouble with ENGLISH, especially
> regarding the variety of British accents :-(

After 50 years since high school when I took Spanish, I can't remember
nuttin' of it. Just some words, but can't form phrases or sentences.

Father Guido's Five-Minute University
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c00GPvns31U

On 2/14/23 8:35 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>Another mark are dreams. I do dream in English some times.
>
> To be able to separate words one hears, it is important to /know/
> many words (that is, to know the /sounds/ of many words). When
> one knows a word and then hears it, it's probable that to the
> left and to the right of the word, there is a word boundary. So
> one also has half-identified the boundaries of two other words.
>
> So, language teachers sometimes say: Vocabulary, vocabulary,
> vocabulary!

When I watch French or Spanish movies with subtitles I recognize the
words AFTER I read them. Perhaps I know ALL the words in the sentence,
but I didn't recognize them just by hearing them. Spanish is easier.
Tijuana Spanish is very nearly impossible to understand -- very fast
with a lot of dropped letters/syllables. My Colombian friend calls it
"baby Spanish".

> In German, it might be a bit easier, because when a word starts
> with a vowel in writing, in speaking, a glottal plosive is added
> in front of the vowel to explicitly mark the beginning of a
> new word. However, when one has identified a word and then does
> not know what it means, the identification does not help much.

Heh. In my 6 weeks of German Frau Muller did NOT mention that. I
learned to pronounce German and a few words, but that's about all. The
lit course I took at the same time required us to read Chaucer in the
original language -- which seemed to be pronounced as if it were German,
according to the prof.

> Some claim that if you are stubborn enough, you can learn
> a new language just by hearing material intensively. Say,
> watch TV shows in that language all day long. The first few
> days, you will not understand anything, then your brain will
> slowly start to identify patterns, "Haven't I head that one
> before?", "What could it mean?", "The man said this after
> accidentally stepping on someone's foot.", ...

Perhaps if you are young. It's interesting that we learn to hear only
the language sounds spoken to us -- this explains why the Japanese have
difficulty with L. A Japanese co-worker could pronounce L, but when he
encountered a new word which might contain either an L or an R he had to
ask which it was. Didn't happen very often because he'd been here for
25-30 years (college in Utah) but every once in a while.

--
Cheers, Bev
"To liberals, building a wall across the Mexican border is a
violation of the Voting Rights Act." -- Ann Coulter

On 2023-02-16 00:24, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 2/14/23 8:35 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>> Another mark are dreams. I do dream in English some times.
>>
>>    To be able to separate words one hears, it is important to /know/
>>    many words (that is, to know the /sounds/ of many words). When
>>    one knows a word and then hears it, it's probable that to the
>>    left and to the right of the word, there is a word boundary. So
>>    one also has half-identified the boundaries of two other words.
>>
>>    So, language teachers sometimes say: Vocabulary, vocabulary,
>>    vocabulary!
>
> When I watch French or Spanish movies with subtitles I recognize the
> words AFTER I read them.

Happens to me, too.

>  Perhaps I know ALL the words in the sentence,
> but I didn't recognize them just by hearing them.  Spanish is easier.
> Tijuana Spanish is very nearly impossible to understand -- very fast
> with a lot of dropped letters/syllables.  My Colombian friend calls it
> "baby Spanish".

That happens in many dialects, and speakers of one dialect don't follow
the speaker of another :-D

>>    In German, it might be a bit easier, because when a word starts
>>    with a vowel in writing, in speaking, a glottal plosive is added
>>    in front of the vowel to explicitly mark the beginning of a
>>    new word. However, when one has identified a word and then does
>>    not know what it means, the identification does not help much.
>
> Heh.  In my 6 weeks of German Frau Muller did NOT mention that.  I
> learned to pronounce German and a few words, but that's about all.  The
> lit course I took at the same time required us to read Chaucer in the
> original language -- which seemed to be pronounced as if it were German,
> according to the prof.
>
>>    Some claim that if you are stubborn enough, you can learn
>>    a new language just by hearing material intensively. Say,
>>    watch TV shows in that language all day long. The first few
>>    days, you will not understand anything, then your brain will
>>    slowly start to identify patterns, "Haven't I head that one
>>    before?", "What could it mean?", "The man said this after
>>    accidentally stepping on someone's foot.", ...
>
> Perhaps if you are young.  It's interesting that we learn to hear only
> the language sounds spoken to us -- this explains why the Japanese have
> difficulty with L.  A Japanese co-worker could pronounce L, but when he
> encountered a new word which might contain either an L or an R he had to
> ask which it was.  Didn't happen very often because he'd been here for
> 25-30 years (college in Utah) but every once in a while.

Yes, the ear just doesn't recognize some foreign sounds. Happens to
Spanish people with English vowels, for instance.

--
Cheers, Carlos.