On 2023-10-16 01:41, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Path: uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
>> From: "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
>> Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
>> Subject: Re: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 21:49:28 +0200
>> Lines: 72
>> Message-ID: <kp2u29Fak91U2@mid.individual.net>
>> References: <ugc351$3bf96$1@dont-email.me> <1v39fwf0l1gvo$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <uge5r9$3sffi$2@dont-email.me> <ugeell.nio.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
>> <uge8p9$3t5ag$1@dont-email.me> <1kbpixi9mo2kd.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <kp0bs2Fs3oqU1@mid.individual.net> <fgrot5zao7yu.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <kp0nfcFs3oqU4@mid.individual.net> <6zg0w4v5wgo6.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <ugha7h$kr8l$1@dont-email.me> <kp2rtoFak92U1@mid.individual.net>
>> <ughepb$m138$3@dont-email.me>
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> X-Trace: individual.net lxn7H1CnXrFtOQ/xUqrNgwtRicyyVJtNLEHo5xwPyR54gAoaib
>> Cancel-Lock: sha1:Wh5Iy50wV15nnTUySsTvbFUN1oc= sha256:eWSXMhYwkPvV1zJqPRIySrnLl73xBdB5kCTzzAz4CY8=
>> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
>> Content-Language: en-CA
>> In-Reply-To: <ughepb$m138$3@dont-email.me>
>> Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.comp.os.windows-10:177231
>>
>> On 2023-10-15 21:31, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-15 20:14, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2023-10-15 00:10, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't need to use UTF-8, because I never use characters
>>>>>>>>>> outside the
>>>>>>>>>> ASCII-7 character set.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You do, when you reply to other posts that use them. “”«»— …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which I mentioned, but only if the quoted content includes those
>>>>>>>> non-ASCII7 characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which my post contained, and now your post has:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe you were trying to be tricky, but I noticed the non-ASCII
>>>>>> characters in your post, and wanted to check how my client would handle
>>>>>> them.  I deliberately included your non-ASCII characters in the quoted
>>>>>> portion of my reply to test which encoding method got employed.  As a
>>>>>> result, my headers changed from:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My client adapted to the need of supporting more than ASCII by
>>>>>> switching
>>>>>> to UTF-8.  That's why my client has a list of fallback charsets.  If I
>>>>>> had trimmed out your non-ASCII characters, my client would've just used
>>>>>> the us-ascii charset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be interesting to know if the font sizing problem still exists for Ed
>>>>>> with my reply to you that uses UTF-8.  Other posters' clients use UTF-8
>>>>>> whether or not it is needed to encompass the characters in their posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well done, man. Your posts now appear normal size.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel more inclined to blame Mozilla for all this; and to thank you
>>>>> for having taken the trouble to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> You misunderstood completely.
>>>>
>>>> YOU have to adapt. The problem for you is not solved, and only you can
>>>> solve it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me and millions of other Tbird users!
>>> Are you seriously suggesting that we all change our settings individually?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> You can, of course, go to the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup
>> and ask there. Maybe there is a bugzilla on it.
>
> He is also using base 64 encoding which is an encoding to cover binary
> content. This is a text-only newsgoup. No attachments. No binaries.
> Ed should *not* be using base 64 except in binary newsgroups to convey
> attachments for photos, videos, executables (bad bad bad), or other
> binary content. NOT HERE!
>
> I filter out base 64 posts. I wouldn't have seen his except I am
> currently only coloring the violations, but will soon be flagging them
> as ignored (and my default view is to hide ignored messages, and their
> subthreads).

I have no idea when Thunderbird switches to base64 or how to control it.
I know that some of my emails have done that, but not me. I didn't tell
Th to do that, AFAIK. I have no idea if he knows.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> He is also using base 64 encoding which is an encoding to cover
>> binary content. This is a text-only newsgoup. No attachments. No
>> binaries. Ed should *not* be using base 64 except in binary
>> newsgroups to convey attachments for photos, videos, executables
>> (bad bad bad), or other binary content. NOT HERE!
>>
>> I filter out base 64 posts. I wouldn't have seen his except I am
>> currently only coloring the violations, but will soon be flagging
>> them as ignored (and my default view is to hide ignored messages,
>> and their subthreads).
>
> I have no idea when Thunderbird switches to base64 or how to control it.
> I know that some of my emails have done that, but not me. I didn't tell
> Th to do that, AFAIK. I have no idea if he knows.

I've seen that happen with attachments. Posts here shouldn't have
attachments, and neither did Ed's. If you compose a message (e-mail or
newsgroup) with an attachment, base 64 might get used.

I found an old article mentioned the following setting:

mail.strictly_mime = true

My guess is then base 64 only gets used for [binary] attachments, and
not when composing text-only messages with no attachments.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/Base64

MIME blocks in a message are for when both text and HTML are used in the
body of the message, or the MIME blocks convey binary content. There
should be no MIME blocks in posts here. Attachments aren't allowed nor
is HTML. Text only.

If someone wants to show an image (photo), they upload it to online
storage (e.g., imgur), and give a URL to the image.

E-mail is separate of NNTP. With e-mail, attachments are far from rare,
and most e-mails are HTML formatted. What happens in e-mail is not what
happens in Usenet. Not only are the protocols different, they are
different communication venues.

VanguardLH wrote:

> I will not change to using UTF-8 as my default encoding. I (not all
> others) only use ASCII characters.

I presume you live in the USA, so you have the 'luxury' of having your
currency symbol within 7-bit ASCII? Yes, many years back people here
used to use GBP instead of £, but now we happily use any utf8 characters
and expect software to cope, which by and large it does, there are some
people in the old-guard who refer to it as wtf8.

@Ed, if you temporarily use a clean profile and read this grouo, do
Vanguard's posts look normal? If so, you need to closely check all your
character encoding/font settings ...

VanguardLH wrote:

> Or could wait until Tbird 116 to see if the rendering bug is resolved.

There isn't (and won't ever be) a release v116 of TB.

Due to the way TB tracks FF ESR releases, the closest thing to v116 was
v115.1 from August, similarly v115.2 was roughly v117 and v115.3 is
roughly v118. There won't be a major release number bump that's pushed
out by default until about v128.3 and it won't come until September
2024, until then there will just be additional v115.x versions.

Although I've heard talk that MZLA developers just might switch to
monthly releases, so that would change everything.

Yep, I'm in the USA. "$" is ASCII. Don't need to use the pound symbol.
If something is listed in pounds, I can convert the value to dollars.
Same for other currencies. However, if I quote a parent article that
has the pound symbol, yep, my client will have to fallback to UTF-8.
Same for lots of other non-ASCII symbols that are commonly used in other
countries.

*I* don't need to step outside of ASCII in the content of my posts.
Others may have to step into the extended ASCII charsets, like UTF-8.
However, that us-ascii is used shouldn't have Tbird use a different font
size, especially since none of the ASCII characters require more space
over the top or bottom of a character for tildes, umlauts, squigglies
(whatever those are called), etc.

When viewing my posts using us-ascii in your instance of TBird, does
font size get larger? Do you suffer Ed's issue with my posts?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Or could wait until Tbird 116 to see if the rendering bug is resolved.
>
> There isn't (and won't ever be) a release v116 of TB.

I forgot the Tbird group syncs on ESR releases of Firefox. Amend my
statement to:

Or you could wait until the next ESR release of Thunderbird.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Release_Management/Calendar

After ESR 115, the next ESR version is 128 in 2024 (Aug 5 for nightly,
Sep 2 for beta, Oct 1 for release).

A bit long to wait for a bug fix (if ever reported) on a font size
discrepancy of viewing ASCII posts.

You're using Thunderbird. Do my us-ascii posts have a font sizing issue
for you, too?

> Although I've heard talk that MZLA developers just might switch to
> monthly releases, so that would change everything.

Yeah, I saw similar reports to monthly releases in 2024. When looking
up stuff on Thunderbird, I ran across:

Thunderbird Will Switch To A Monthly Release Schedule By 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYOLNDQlI6M
Author: Mozilla Thunderbird

VanguardLH wrote:

> When viewing my posts using us-ascii in your instance of TBird, does
> font size get larger? Do you suffer Ed's issue with my posts?

No, they all look normal.

VanguardLH wrote:

> After ESR 115, the next ESR version is 128 in 2024 (Aug 5 for nightly,
> Sep 2 for beta, Oct 1 for release).

So then TB v128.0 is available for those who seek it out, but they'll
wait until TB v128.3 before pushing it out as an upgrade.

> A bit long to wait for a bug fix (if
> ever reported) on a font size discrepancy of viewing ASCII posts.

Plenty of bugs have been fixed within the TB v115.x.y releases.

I think Ed's font issue is somehow down to his settings, not a bug,
until he tries looking at your posts with a blank profile, it's just a
guess.

On 2023-10-16 04:27, VanguardLH wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> Or could wait until Tbird 116 to see if the rendering bug is resolved.
>>
>> There isn't (and won't ever be) a release v116 of TB.
>
> I forgot the Tbird group syncs on ESR releases of Firefox. Amend my
> statement to:
>
> Or you could wait until the next ESR release of Thunderbird.
>
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Release_Management/Calendar
>
> After ESR 115, the next ESR version is 128 in 2024 (Aug 5 for nightly,
> Sep 2 for beta, Oct 1 for release).
>
> A bit long to wait for a bug fix (if ever reported) on a font size
> discrepancy of viewing ASCII posts.
>
> You're using Thunderbird. Do my us-ascii posts have a font sizing issue
> for you, too?

I have not noticed any issue in this thread at least. But I am on Linux,
and using Thunderbird 115, of course.

I am just looking at one:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It displays correctly.

My font setting is Roboto 14 in general. In advanced, it is size 14 for
latin, and 16 for "other writing system". I change to 14 for both.
Monospace was set to a smaller font, and I change that.

I don't detect an US-ascii language, if it is not "latin".

The issue I have in this laptop with Thunderbird fonts is that they
display too small and I have to use the '+' key.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 10/15/2023 7:41 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Path: uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
>> From: "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
>> Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10
>> Subject: Re: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 21:49:28 +0200
>> Lines: 72
>> Message-ID: <kp2u29Fak91U2@mid.individual.net>
>> References: <ugc351$3bf96$1@dont-email.me> <1v39fwf0l1gvo$.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <uge5r9$3sffi$2@dont-email.me> <ugeell.nio.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
>> <uge8p9$3t5ag$1@dont-email.me> <1kbpixi9mo2kd.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <kp0bs2Fs3oqU1@mid.individual.net> <fgrot5zao7yu.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <kp0nfcFs3oqU4@mid.individual.net> <6zg0w4v5wgo6.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
>> <ugha7h$kr8l$1@dont-email.me> <kp2rtoFak92U1@mid.individual.net>
>> <ughepb$m138$3@dont-email.me>
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>> X-Trace: individual.net lxn7H1CnXrFtOQ/xUqrNgwtRicyyVJtNLEHo5xwPyR54gAoaib
>> Cancel-Lock: sha1:Wh5Iy50wV15nnTUySsTvbFUN1oc= sha256:eWSXMhYwkPvV1zJqPRIySrnLl73xBdB5kCTzzAz4CY8=
>> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
>> Content-Language: en-CA
>> In-Reply-To: <ughepb$m138$3@dont-email.me>
>> Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.comp.os.windows-10:177231
>>
>> On 2023-10-15 21:31, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-10-15 20:14, Ed Cryer wrote:
>>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2023-10-15 00:10, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't need to use UTF-8, because I never use characters
>>>>>>>>>> outside the
>>>>>>>>>> ASCII-7 character set.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You do, when you reply to other posts that use them. “”«»— …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which I mentioned, but only if the quoted content includes those
>>>>>>>> non-ASCII7 characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which my post contained, and now your post has:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe you were trying to be tricky, but I noticed the non-ASCII
>>>>>> characters in your post, and wanted to check how my client would handle
>>>>>> them.  I deliberately included your non-ASCII characters in the quoted
>>>>>> portion of my reply to test which encoding method got employed.  As a
>>>>>> result, my headers changed from:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My client adapted to the need of supporting more than ASCII by
>>>>>> switching
>>>>>> to UTF-8.  That's why my client has a list of fallback charsets.  If I
>>>>>> had trimmed out your non-ASCII characters, my client would've just used
>>>>>> the us-ascii charset.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be interesting to know if the font sizing problem still exists for Ed
>>>>>> with my reply to you that uses UTF-8.  Other posters' clients use UTF-8
>>>>>> whether or not it is needed to encompass the characters in their posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well done, man. Your posts now appear normal size.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel more inclined to blame Mozilla for all this; and to thank you
>>>>> for having taken the trouble to adapt.
>>>>
>>>> You misunderstood completely.
>>>>
>>>> YOU have to adapt. The problem for you is not solved, and only you can
>>>> solve it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me and millions of other Tbird users!
>>> Are you seriously suggesting that we all change our settings individually?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> You can, of course, go to the alt.comp.software.thunderbird newsgroup
>> and ask there. Maybe there is a bugzilla on it.
>
> He is also using base 64 encoding which is an encoding to cover binary
> content. This is a text-only newsgoup. No attachments. No binaries.
> Ed should *not* be using base 64 except in binary newsgroups to convey
> attachments for photos, videos, executables (bad bad bad), or other
> binary content. NOT HERE!
>
> I filter out base 64 posts. I wouldn't have seen his except I am
> currently only coloring the violations, but will soon be flagging them
> as ignored (and my default view is to hide ignored messages, and their
> subthreads).
>

Is a choice like that (BASE64), based on mail.strictly_mime ?

Mine is

mail.strictly_mime false # Appears to be the default, and not adjusted by me

If yours was True though, you might end up using quoted-printable.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3038519&p=14792921#p14792921

I presume transmission in mime wrapped format, would include mime headers,
and yours does not seem to have that. It would be expected, for MIME attachments
to be BASE64, as that is a common choice for email. And if you had MIME headers,
it's possible you would be filtered off E-S, as GG was. When you send combo text/HTML
messages, those can be MIME wrapped, to separate the two sections (one text, one HTML).

That's the problem with some of this, is "crazy settings with un-suggestive names"
might be involved. And you might have toggled something to solve a problem with
a specific Mail server, that affected USENET News as well. In the Config Editor,
settings which are Non-Default are in Bold text.

There are also things like "mailnews.display" here which could affect
how incoming materials are washed and pressed.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Mail_and_news_settings

Paul (TB 52.3.0)

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-10-16 04:27, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or could wait until Tbird 116 to see if the rendering bug is resolved.
>>>
>>> There isn't (and won't ever be) a release v116 of TB.
>>
>> I forgot the Tbird group syncs on ESR releases of Firefox. Amend my
>> statement to:
>>
>> Or you could wait until the next ESR release of Thunderbird.
>>
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Release_Management/Calendar
>>
>> After ESR 115, the next ESR version is 128 in 2024 (Aug 5 for nightly,
>> Sep 2 for beta, Oct 1 for release).
>>
>> A bit long to wait for a bug fix (if ever reported) on a font size
>> discrepancy of viewing ASCII posts.
>>
>> You're using Thunderbird. Do my us-ascii posts have a font sizing issue
>> for you, too?
>
> I have not noticed any issue in this thread at least. But I am on Linux,
> and using Thunderbird 115, of course.
>
> I am just looking at one:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> It displays correctly.
>
> My font setting is Roboto 14 in general. In advanced, it is size 14 for
> latin, and 16 for "other writing system". I change to 14 for both.
> Monospace was set to a smaller font, and I change that.
>
> I don't detect an US-ascii language, if it is not "latin".
>
> The issue I have in this laptop with Thunderbird fonts is that they
> display too small and I have to use the '+' key.

Yeah, I set to a monospaced font, because it's impossible to align
anything using proportional fonts. Varying widths fonts make it
impossible to align on columns, like when you are trying indent or
tabularize some content.

While I use Lucida Console which is a TrueType font, it is monospaced.
It is a sans serif font, and easy on my eyes. I don't have Monospace
from which to select, but perhaps that's a common Linux platform font.
Lucida Sans Typewrite is also TrueType and monospaced, as is Courier
New. While they are monospaced (non-proportional) fonts, they have
different attributes, like pitch, spacing, kerning, and, yep, height.
In additional, if using different fonts, the font size specified for
each could be different. If you use natively huge fonts, or large font
sizes, a lot of text will get truncated, overlapped, or oversized for
the element in which it is contained. I use the same font (10 point)
for all displayed message content: bodies, bodies (monospaced), headers,
and newsgroup lists. I do have different fonts and sizes used for
elements of the newsreader (column names, toolbars, tabs, but any
message content is the same font and size wherever displayed.

I don't use my newsreader for e-mail. I use a separate e-mail client
for e-mail. With a combo client, like Thunderbird, picking different
fonts and sizes might be nice on the eyes for e-mail composing and
viewing, especially proportional fonts, but doesn't work well with a
plain-text venue, like Usenet. If Ed sees oversized characters when
viewing us-ascii posts, one fix already mentioned is to use a different
font (preferrably a non-porportional one) and/or smaller font size. I'm
not sure any program can accomodate any size font or font size in a
graphical display having multiple components for different content,
especially when multiple components are combined, like field names,
Subject, date, etc all inside a larger component (e.g., preview pane
header section). You have to pick what you like that still fits.

VanguardLH wrote:

> While I use Lucida Console which is a TrueType font, it is monospaced.
> It is a sans serif font, and easy on my eyes. I don't have Monospace
> from which to select

I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
don't allow messages to override them.

Andy Burns wrote:

> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
> don't allow messages to override them.

If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I di
see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
>> don't allow messages to override them.
>
> If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I
> di see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...

Ah, a superset definition of charsets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)

Perhaps ASCII isn't considered a Latin charset, so the "Other" font
fallback gets used. The Latin alphabet is pretty old, and includes lots
of non-ASCII characters. ASCII showed up in the '60s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet

I remember the old teletype consoles that punched holes in tape or cards
(http://www.it.uu.se/education/course/homepage/os/vt18/images/module-0/linux/shell-and-terminal/teletype-model-33.jpg)
that you handed to the computer guys to run your program, and later
you'd return to get a printout, find an error, repunch some cards, or
repunch the entire tape, hand in again, get the printout, and repeat
until the program no longer failed. No non-ASCII characters on
teletypes.

On 2023-10-16 13:44, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-16 04:27, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Or could wait until Tbird 116 to see if the rendering bug is resolved.
>>>>
>>>> There isn't (and won't ever be) a release v116 of TB.
>>>
>>> I forgot the Tbird group syncs on ESR releases of Firefox. Amend my
>>> statement to:
>>>
>>> Or you could wait until the next ESR release of Thunderbird.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Release_Management/Calendar
>>>
>>> After ESR 115, the next ESR version is 128 in 2024 (Aug 5 for nightly,
>>> Sep 2 for beta, Oct 1 for release).
>>>
>>> A bit long to wait for a bug fix (if ever reported) on a font size
>>> discrepancy of viewing ASCII posts.
>>>
>>> You're using Thunderbird. Do my us-ascii posts have a font sizing issue
>>> for you, too?
>>
>> I have not noticed any issue in this thread at least. But I am on Linux,
>> and using Thunderbird 115, of course.
>>
>> I am just looking at one:
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>> It displays correctly.
>>
>> My font setting is Roboto 14 in general. In advanced, it is size 14 for
>> latin, and 16 for "other writing system". I change to 14 for both.
>> Monospace was set to a smaller font, and I change that.
>>
>> I don't detect an US-ascii language, if it is not "latin".
>>
>> The issue I have in this laptop with Thunderbird fonts is that they
>> display too small and I have to use the '+' key.
>
> Yeah, I set to a monospaced font, because it's impossible to align
> anything using proportional fonts. Varying widths fonts make it
> impossible to align on columns, like when you are trying indent or
> tabularize some content.
>
> While I use Lucida Console which is a TrueType font, it is monospaced.
> It is a sans serif font, and easy on my eyes. I don't have Monospace
> from which to select, but perhaps that's a common Linux platform font.
> Lucida Sans Typewrite is also TrueType and monospaced, as is Courier
> New. While they are monospaced (non-proportional) fonts, they have
> different attributes, like pitch, spacing, kerning, and, yep, height.
> In additional, if using different fonts, the font size specified for
> each could be different. If you use natively huge fonts, or large font
> sizes, a lot of text will get truncated, overlapped, or oversized for
> the element in which it is contained. I use the same font (10 point)
> for all displayed message content: bodies, bodies (monospaced), headers,
> and newsgroup lists. I do have different fonts and sizes used for
> elements of the newsreader (column names, toolbars, tabs, but any
> message content is the same font and size wherever displayed.
>
> I don't use my newsreader for e-mail. I use a separate e-mail client
> for e-mail. With a combo client, like Thunderbird, picking different
> fonts and sizes might be nice on the eyes for e-mail composing and
> viewing, especially proportional fonts, but doesn't work well with a
> plain-text venue, like Usenet. If Ed sees oversized characters when
> viewing us-ascii posts, one fix already mentioned is to use a different
> font (preferrably a non-porportional one) and/or smaller font size. I'm
> not sure any program can accomodate any size font or font size in a
> graphical display having multiple components for different content,
> especially when multiple components are combined, like field names,
> Subject, date, etc all inside a larger component (e.g., preview pane
> header section). You have to pick what you like that still fits.

I don't have any issue in that direction with Thunderbird. I participate
on several mail lists which are plain text only, so monospace is a must.
I think there is a setting that tells Thunderbird to use monospace for
plain text.

Otherwise, I can post using html, and then set a paragraph to
"preformat" which seems to actually mean "code", and it goes to
monospace and no wrap.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-10-16 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
>> don't allow messages to override them.
>
> If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I di
> see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...

I just set "monospace" to have the same size as proportional (normally
it is two numbers smaller), and now your post displays with a bigger
font. But then when composing (replying to you) it goes to a smaller
font again.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-10-16 15:14, VanguardLH wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
>>> don't allow messages to override them.
>>
>> If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I
>> di see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...
>
> Ah, a superset definition of charsets.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)
>
> Perhaps ASCII isn't considered a Latin charset, so the "Other" font
> fallback gets used. The Latin alphabet is pretty old, and includes lots
> of non-ASCII characters. ASCII showed up in the '60s.

Problem is, there are different codepages depending on the country, so
chars above the 127 can be different.

Thinking of the MsDOS or IBM-PC character sets.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet
>
> I remember the old teletype consoles that punched holes in tape or cards
> (http://www.it.uu.se/education/course/homepage/os/vt18/images/module-0/linux/shell-and-terminal/teletype-model-33.jpg)
> that you handed to the computer guys to run your program, and later
> you'd return to get a printout, find an error, repunch some cards, or
> repunch the entire tape, hand in again, get the printout, and repeat
> until the program no longer failed. No non-ASCII characters on
> teletypes.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> I don't have any issue in that direction with Thunderbird. I participate
> on several mail lists which are plain text only, so monospace is a must.
> I think there is a setting that tells Thunderbird to use monospace for
> plain text.

Yes, there is.

In my 'stone-age' (60.9.0) Thunderbird:

Tools -> Options -> 'Display' tab -> 'Formatting' sub-tab -> Fonts &
Colors -> Advanced... -> (this gives the 'Fonts & Encodings' popup) ->
Font control -> tick 'Use fixed width font for plain text messages'

> Otherwise, I can post using html, and then set a paragraph to
> "preformat" which seems to actually mean "code", and it goes to
> monospace and no wrap.

Paul wrote:
> On 10/13/2023 2:43 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> Occasionally a message displays in Tbird's message pane with a much larger font size than others.
>> I've narrowed it down to 7bit encoding, and the major culprit is Forte Agent.
>>
>> There appears to be no setting to handle this.
>>
>> Ed
>
> I wrote a rant and erased it.
>
> For TBird 115, its frantic user-edits of userchrome.css and prefs.js
> are worthy of a rant.
>
> Why are they releasing software, and having the user community
> chase it around with broom and dustpan, and userchrome.css edits ?
>
> Paul
>
>

Go on; have a good rant. They're sometimes very beneficial.
Psychologists tell us that the phaenomena which we experience as
frustration are underpinned by physical networks in the brain; dendrites
and neurons. And these need release before they spread further and block
the essential you, that path of hope and optimism.
There's a simple text for a good old rant here; something like this.
1. I had a very finely working Tbird. It did all I wanted with personal
email and NG surfing.
2. All of a sudden an update arrived and screwed lots of things up.
3. I contacted my favourite NG, expecting that there'd be lots of fellow
sufferers, and that we'd work together on the problem.
4. I got replies from people who didn't use Tbird or who used antique
versions; hardly any from people who'd updated.
5. I was advised to change my settings, install this or that add-on,
create a new profile. And they loaded on my shoulders so much work to do
that I felt I'd be more profitably rewarded by writing a completely new
newsreader. As if I had nothing better to do.
6. The situation is analogous to having a builder repair the porch. And
when you complain that you didn't want pink paint or the letter-box
seated diagonally or the doormat nailed to a hook on the wall, he tells
you to shop around.

Well, there you have it, an outline for a good rant. You can add a few
f...ings and blindings as the mood takes you.

Ed

On 2023-10-16 20:02, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> I don't have any issue in that direction with Thunderbird. I participate
>> on several mail lists which are plain text only, so monospace is a must.
>> I think there is a setting that tells Thunderbird to use monospace for
>> plain text.
>
> Yes, there is.
>
> In my 'stone-age' (60.9.0) Thunderbird:
>
> Tools -> Options -> 'Display' tab -> 'Formatting' sub-tab -> Fonts &
> Colors -> Advanced... -> (this gives the 'Fonts & Encodings' popup) ->
> Font control -> tick 'Use fixed width font for plain text messages'
>
>> Otherwise, I can post using html, and then set a paragraph to
>> "preformat" which seems to actually mean "code", and it goes to
>> monospace and no wrap.

The problem I'm having now is that the font while composing the reply is
too small, and I don't see the setting for it. I can do ctrl+, but it is
tiring.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-10-16 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
>>> don't allow messages to override them.
>>
>> If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I di
>> see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...
>
> I just set "monospace" to have the same size as proportional (normally
> it is two numbers smaller), and now your post displays with a bigger
> font. But then when composing (replying to you) it goes to a smaller
> font again.

So, if I read this correctly, using a proportional font can cause the
sizing problem. Proportional fonts and Usenet don't mix well. Okay in
e-mails, but use non-proportional (fixed) font in Usenet. Fixed fonts
probably have less spacing between lines than for proportional.

While kerning affects the spacing between characters, changing between
fixed and proportional fonts will show a change in vertical spacing
(whitespace between lines).

I go into Wordpad (pick an editor of your choice that supports fonts),
and duplicate a long line many times, like 2 dozen. Select a line or
lines in the middle of the group of lines. Then start picking different
fonts for the selected lines, but do not change font size (points).
What I see is the lines following those selected will move up or down.
Different fonts want different heights, and why font size, say 12, is
not uniform in line height across all fonts because the whitespace
changes between lines.

I have no idea if Tbird allows users to define line height. In a web
page, you could use:

p {
font-size: 16px;
line height:150%; /* Equivalent to 24px */
} (see https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/glossary/line_height_leading)

where the line height is a percents of the point size of the font. I
don't know if line height is an attribute defined within a font file,
but it can be affected by the application when rendering a font.

Looks like Tbird is changing line height between fix and proportional
fonts. Could be Tbird uses a bigger line height to make it easier to
read the header section of the preview pane, or in the header list pane.
I use a monospaced (fixed) font of 10 points for the entries in the
folder/tree pane, header list pane (where the threads are shown), for
body in the preview pane, and the header block in the preview pane. For
the header block in the preview pane showing Subject, date, newsgroup,
etc, I don't get a font choice. Just whether monospaced is used or not,
but it looks like it uses one of the 10-point selections. For
composing, I reduce to 9-point. I don't remember why, but may 10-point
just looks too big (for the Lucida Console fixed font), or I don't want
as wide a window when composing a reply.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> Otherwise, I can post using html, and then set a paragraph to
> "preformat" which seems to actually mean "code", and it goes to
> monospace and no wrap.

Yep, the <pre> tag means to use a monospaced font. It can be necessary
to align content by indent or columns, and disable line wrap except
where line breaks are specified.

https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_pre.asp

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-10-16 20:02, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> I don't have any issue in that direction with Thunderbird. I participate
>>> on several mail lists which are plain text only, so monospace is a must.
>>> I think there is a setting that tells Thunderbird to use monospace for
>>> plain text.
>>
>> Yes, there is.
>>
>> In my 'stone-age' (60.9.0) Thunderbird:
>>
>> Tools -> Options -> 'Display' tab -> 'Formatting' sub-tab -> Fonts &
>> Colors -> Advanced... -> (this gives the 'Fonts & Encodings' popup) ->
>> Font control -> tick 'Use fixed width font for plain text messages'
>>
>>> Otherwise, I can post using html, and then set a paragraph to
>>> "preformat" which seems to actually mean "code", and it goes to
>>> monospace and no wrap.
>
> The problem I'm having now is that the font while composing the reply is
> too small, and I don't see the setting for it. I can do ctrl+, but it is
> tiring.

Hmm, just a guess, but maybe Tbird remembers the prior selected font
size when composing a message. Start writing a new message, to to
Options -> Format, select font. Presumably there is also a font size
(points) selection. Then close and discard the test message. Click
Write to start composing a new message. What the prior font and size
reused by default in the new message?

https://www.lifewire.com/change-default-font-thunderbird-1173143

That article mentions changing the default font when composing, but also
says to enable HTML formatting when sending. Do the font selections
disappear when you deselect sending in HTML?

On 2023-10-17 06:38, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-16 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> I use Consoleas 14pt for my serif, san-serif and monospace fonts, and
>>>> don't allow messages to override them.
>>>
>>> If I set 14pt for "Latin" and 17pt for "Other writing systems" then I di
>>> see a difference between e.g. Carlos's and Vanguard's posts ...
>>
>> I just set "monospace" to have the same size as proportional (normally
>> it is two numbers smaller), and now your post displays with a bigger
>> font. But then when composing (replying to you) it goes to a smaller
>> font again.
>
> So, if I read this correctly, using a proportional font can cause the
> sizing problem. Proportional fonts and Usenet don't mix well. Okay in
> e-mails, but use non-proportional (fixed) font in Usenet. Fixed fonts
> probably have less spacing between lines than for proportional.

It is fixed fonts which are used. Just commenting that in the automated
configuration, fixed font size is two numbers above the size of
proportional fonts. So you have to experiment with the sizes (in
advanced) till messages display correctly.

And the other thing is that the compose window uses a different font
setting, in my case smaller, and I don't know where to adjust this one.

>
> While kerning affects the spacing between characters, changing between
> fixed and proportional fonts will show a change in vertical spacing
> (whitespace between lines).
>
> I go into Wordpad (pick an editor of your choice that supports fonts),
> and duplicate a long line many times, like 2 dozen. Select a line or
> lines in the middle of the group of lines. Then start picking different
> fonts for the selected lines, but do not change font size (points).
> What I see is the lines following those selected will move up or down.
> Different fonts want different heights, and why font size, say 12, is
> not uniform in line height across all fonts because the whitespace
> changes between lines.
>
> I have no idea if Tbird allows users to define line height. In a web
> page, you could use:

No, unless there is a setting in the list of advanced variables.

>
> p {
> font-size: 16px;
> line height:150%; /* Equivalent to 24px */
> }
> (see https://fonts.google.com/knowledge/glossary/line_height_leading)
>
> where the line height is a percents of the point size of the font. I
> don't know if line height is an attribute defined within a font file,
> but it can be affected by the application when rendering a font.
>
> Looks like Tbird is changing line height between fix and proportional
> fonts. Could be Tbird uses a bigger line height to make it easier to
> read the header section of the preview pane, or in the header list pane.
> I use a monospaced (fixed) font of 10 points for the entries in the
> folder/tree pane, header list pane (where the threads are shown), for
> body in the preview pane, and the header block in the preview pane. For
> the header block in the preview pane showing Subject, date, newsgroup,
> etc, I don't get a font choice. Just whether monospaced is used or not,
> but it looks like it uses one of the 10-point selections. For
> composing, I reduce to 9-point. I don't remember why, but may 10-point
> just looks too big (for the Lucida Console fixed font), or I don't want
> as wide a window when composing a reply.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

VanguardLH wrote:

> Looks like Tbird is changing line height between fix and proportional fonts.

Only because it allows setting a different point size for monospace and
proportional.

If I set the same font and size for serif/san-serif/monospace, and do
that for latin and for "other writing systems" then everyone's messages
here look the same.

Since nobody is using html, I could probably just set the monospace font
and size for latin and for "other", then tick the "use monosace for
plain text" option.