Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>
> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.

Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
significant money is kept.

With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
online already cause me enough trouble.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 6/7/22 12:01 AM, Robert Riches wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, 25.BX945<25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>> On 6/1/22 11:34 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Pastor Pentium<kodak@leica.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>>>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>>>> deb file!
>>>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>>>> yum/apt/zypper.
>>>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>>> Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
>>> Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
>>> You sound like an idiot.
>>>
>>> Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
>>> I fail to see a problem.
>> Another snap/flat suck-up. Vlad loves you.
>>
>> I*was* gonna upgrade a bunch of boxes to US-22.04, but
>> now I won't. Straight Debian from now on. Indeed Devuan
>> is beginning to look attractive .............. systemd
>> has some uses, but some downsides as well. Ever closer
>> to Win Registry IMHO .......

> Fwiw: Devuan works well for me! As a refugee from systemd when
> Mageia 2 switched to it, I have used Debian Wheezy and Slackware
> 14.2 (don't recall which order) and now three releases of Devuan.
> Devuan's update servers are sometimes slow, but that can be
> worked around by downloading overnight if needed.

I created two Devuan installations in VM today to check
'em out. Both the net-install and 'server' seem to take
you down the same route. The 'alternative' update server
actually seems a bit snappier BTW. Did the simplest
install then added IceWM for ease-of-use. ALWAYS remember
the "--no-install-recommends" and '--no-install-suggests"
options for apt-get of course :-)

I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
coding, then translate to 'C'.

In any case, I *am* gonna replace everything I've got running
on U.S. now and put it on vanilla Debian. I've just HAD IT
with Canonical - the mindset there seems to be more and
more MicroSoft .... and in a few years that's exactly what
we'll HAVE - crap. Centos WOULD have been an alternative
refuge ... until. Like Deb better anyhow.

On 6/7/22 8:31 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I’m trying to forget cash...
>
> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.

Ditto.

On 6/7/22 6:40 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>
>> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.
>
> Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
> significant money is kept.
>
> With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
> mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
> declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
> online already cause me enough trouble.

A few years back, I started to sign up with PayPal - but
changed my mind about half way through it. A couple days
later I started getting phishing mails claiming I needed
to give my acct id and CC info so certain purchases could
be dealt with properly. I hadn't even gotten to the credit
card part and, backing out, the e-mail address SHOULD
have disappeared too. This smelled of INTERNAL corruption,
employees being very very naughty. I'll NEVER use it now.

And no, I don't do online banking either. I go TO a bank,
get my face in front of HUMANS (and the security cams)
any time there's important stuff to do. They know me, I
know them. MUCH better.

In any case, use cash fairly often - it disrupts attempts
to "profile" you - by biz or govt. And yes, todays 'AI'
really CAN watch everybody all the time, looking for
"something" ... it's really an unwarranted search .....
waiting for some lawyers to pick up on that ..........

On 6/5/22 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-06, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>> "What do you do when they let you go home,
>> and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
>> is too soft ? ..." :-)
>
> What will you do if the people you knew
> Were the plastic that melted,
> And the chromium too?
> Who are the Brain Police? ;-)

Ah ... cultured :-)

The answer is a question that is now especially
relevant ..........

On 6/7/22 6:20 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/06/2022 04:31, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> On 6/6/22 1:07 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 13:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>>>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest
>>>>>> firefox.
>>>>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>>>>
>>>> Partially agreed - there are quite a few banking options in this
>>>> country, it’s not worth remaining stuck to one of the crapper ones.
>>>> OTOH changing primary current account is pretty disruptive...
>>>>
>>>>> Who is your bank?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would create a business reason for supporting linux firefox by
>>>>> getting
>>>>> stats from https://distrowatch.com/ and maybe someone at firefox
>>>>> can help
>>>>> you to ask the bank why they are ignoring x,xxxs amount of a possible
>>>>> customer base.
>>>>
>>>> Desktop Linux is largely irrelevant as a consumer OS (Android & server
>>>> are another matter).
>>>>
>>> Well yes, except that there is no reason to actually somehow detect
>>> it and discriminate against it.
>>
>>
>>    Yes there is. MS/Apple will give 'em a discount/perks ...
>>
>>
> I have been around software for long enough to know how it goes. At some
> level some PFY is asked by his boss to create a routine that will check
> browser compatibility, irrespective of what user agent is supplied.
> Because his is a smart whippersnapper he dives into the darkest recesses
> of Javascript to find some function that interacts with the operating
> system in a uniquely identifiable way. It works for windows and it works
> for Macintosh and it works for android and it works for IOS

Yea yea ... but you missed what I was *saying* ..... big outfits
use LOTS of very expensive MS and Apple software - SO, intentionally
screw the Linux/Unix people MS/Apple doesn't make much money from
and they'll supply Company-X with a big DISCOUNT when it's time
to upgrade ...........

When it question, when in doubt, follow the MONEY
and you'll find out. (Me, as best I know)

> You can imagine the code
>
> CASE (gargleblaster==1 and analProbe==1 and (browser=='firefox' &&
> version >6.0) || browser=='Edge ||...); OS=='Android' or OS=='WINSDER'
> || OS == IOS || OS=='OSX) ;break...
> ......
> default: "Upgrade your browser"
>         exit(website)
>
> And this code will be part of a library that has been used by a company
> that writes websites that consists solely of 'creatives' who really
> cannot code - all they do is arrange dialogue boxes and pretty images.
>
> And Barclays IT has hired them, to create a 'woke' website that will
> appeal to morons that are easy to part from their money.
>
> Additionally technical support is now geared to these morons who all
> access their accounts via mobile phones. And is merely a front for an
> organization that doesn't give a fuck about its customers. Only about
> compliance with financial standards. I got about ten letters asking if I
> had been satisfied with customer support, but responding 'no' gets you
> nowhere either.

Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.

Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
don't give a shit.

> The difference between Barclays and Interactive Investor was so vast I
> nearly fell out of my pram. A support team who want to keep you happy so
> you will go away. A website so simple to use that it is amazing how
> barclays could get it so wrong.
> The assumption that you actually know about settlement delays and so on.
>
> Anyway its not an indictment of Linux, its an indictment of Barclays and
> a class of modern company that despises its employees and its customers
> equally. And a class of IT that things a website is a marketing tool,
> not a way to access a bank account or trade shares.
>

On 2022-06-08, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
> On 6/7/22 12:01 AM, Robert Riches wrote:
>> On 2022-06-07, 25.BX945<25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/1/22 11:34 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> Pastor Pentium<kodak@leica.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>>>>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>>>>> deb file!
>>>>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>>>>> yum/apt/zypper.
>>>>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>>>> Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
>>>> Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
>>>> You sound like an idiot.
>>>>
>>>> Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
>>>> I fail to see a problem.
>>> Another snap/flat suck-up. Vlad loves you.
>>>
>>> I*was* gonna upgrade a bunch of boxes to US-22.04, but
>>> now I won't. Straight Debian from now on. Indeed Devuan
>>> is beginning to look attractive .............. systemd
>>> has some uses, but some downsides as well. Ever closer
>>> to Win Registry IMHO .......
>
>> Fwiw: Devuan works well for me! As a refugee from systemd when
>> Mageia 2 switched to it, I have used Debian Wheezy and Slackware
>> 14.2 (don't recall which order) and now three releases of Devuan.
>> Devuan's update servers are sometimes slow, but that can be
>> worked around by downloading overnight if needed.
>
> I created two Devuan installations in VM today to check
> 'em out. Both the net-install and 'server' seem to take
> you down the same route. The 'alternative' update server
> actually seems a bit snappier BTW. Did the simplest
> install then added IceWM for ease-of-use. ALWAYS remember
> the "--no-install-recommends" and '--no-install-suggests"
> options for apt-get of course :-)
>
> I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
> is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
> crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
> watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
> sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
> opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
> might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
> time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
> de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
> for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
> they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
> Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
> coding, then translate to 'C'.
>
> In any case, I *am* gonna replace everything I've got running
> on U.S. now and put it on vanilla Debian. I've just HAD IT
> with Canonical - the mindset there seems to be more and
> more MicroSoft .... and in a few years that's exactly what
> we'll HAVE - crap. Centos WOULD have been an alternative
> refuge ... until. Like Deb better anyhow.

For the issue of watchdogging other apps, a decade or so ago I
worked with a program called 'monit' that did that rather well.
For each app I wanted monit to control, I had to write a short
(between 5 and 12 lines) config file for that app. If monit was
still growing in popularity, there might be canned config files
available for some more common apps.

HTH

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

On 6/7/22 11:50 PM, Robert Riches wrote:
> On 2022-06-08, 25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>> On 6/7/22 12:01 AM, Robert Riches wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-07, 25.BX945<25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/1/22 11:34 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>> Pastor Pentium<kodak@leica.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>>>>>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>>>>>> deb file!
>>>>>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>>>>>> yum/apt/zypper.
>>>>>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>>>>> Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
>>>>> Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
>>>>> You sound like an idiot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
>>>>> I fail to see a problem.
>>>> Another snap/flat suck-up. Vlad loves you.
>>>>
>>>> I*was* gonna upgrade a bunch of boxes to US-22.04, but
>>>> now I won't. Straight Debian from now on. Indeed Devuan
>>>> is beginning to look attractive .............. systemd
>>>> has some uses, but some downsides as well. Ever closer
>>>> to Win Registry IMHO .......
>>
>>> Fwiw: Devuan works well for me! As a refugee from systemd when
>>> Mageia 2 switched to it, I have used Debian Wheezy and Slackware
>>> 14.2 (don't recall which order) and now three releases of Devuan.
>>> Devuan's update servers are sometimes slow, but that can be
>>> worked around by downloading overnight if needed.
>>
>> I created two Devuan installations in VM today to check
>> 'em out. Both the net-install and 'server' seem to take
>> you down the same route. The 'alternative' update server
>> actually seems a bit snappier BTW. Did the simplest
>> install then added IceWM for ease-of-use. ALWAYS remember
>> the "--no-install-recommends" and '--no-install-suggests"
>> options for apt-get of course :-)
>>
>> I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
>> is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
>> crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
>> watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
>> sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
>> opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
>> might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
>> time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
>> de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
>> for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
>> they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
>> Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
>> coding, then translate to 'C'.
>>
>> In any case, I *am* gonna replace everything I've got running
>> on U.S. now and put it on vanilla Debian. I've just HAD IT
>> with Canonical - the mindset there seems to be more and
>> more MicroSoft .... and in a few years that's exactly what
>> we'll HAVE - crap. Centos WOULD have been an alternative
>> refuge ... until. Like Deb better anyhow.
>
> For the issue of watchdogging other apps, a decade or so ago I
> worked with a program called 'monit' that did that rather well.
> For each app I wanted monit to control, I had to write a short
> (between 5 and 12 lines) config file for that app. If monit was
> still growing in popularity, there might be canned config files
> available for some more common apps.

I've heard of monit ... but I don't know if anyone has been
keeping it current. Maybe it was "perfection" and didn't need
any tweaks for a decade .....

In any case, watchdogging IS important for certain apps - and
there's also the issue of watching the watchdogs. Annoying, but
that's the Real World - stuff that CAN'T crash still tends to
crash anyway.

On 08/06/2022 03:45, 25.BX945 wrote:
> Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.
>
>   Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
>   don't give a shit.

So are Interactive Investor. And they regard not inconveniencing any of
their customers as good business practice.

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 07/06/2022 08:05, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> FWIW the Barclays online banking works for me from Linux with
>>> Firefox
>>> 101.0, although I don’t have a current account with them so I’m not in a
>>> position to fully explore what functionality works and what doesn’t.
>>
>> It was specifically the SmartInvestor platform* that was broken.
>
> Right, not tried it, and looking at the fee structure I won’t be going
> near it any time soon l-)
>
>> I am still using them as a high street bank, because frankly the
>> others are no better.
>>
>> They seem just about able to process direct debits and debit cards and
>> occasionally provide cash (remember cash>?) at a hole in the wall...
>
> I’m trying to forget cash...
>
Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
dangerously dumb thing, to do.

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 07/06/2022 23:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>
>> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.
>
> Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
> significant money is kept.
>
> With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
> mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
> declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
> online already cause me enough trouble.
>
I use one debit card and paypal for everything except direct debits and
direct bank to bank payments. Like Richard I seldom use cash. I don't
buy anything that I am ashamed of or really want to conceal from the
authorities.

Throughout my life I have learnt to keep as boring a public profile as
possible.

But as Mr Zimmerman said...

"If my thought dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"

Free thought still exists.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

On 08/06/2022 03:07, 25.BX945 wrote:
> On 6/7/22 6:40 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.
>>
>> Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
>> significant money is kept.
>>
>> With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
>> mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
>> declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
>> online already cause me enough trouble.
>
>   A few years back, I started to sign up with PayPal - but
>   changed my mind about half way through it. A couple days
>   later I started getting phishing mails claiming I needed
>   to give my acct id and CC info so certain purchases could
>   be dealt with properly. I hadn't even gotten to the credit
>   card part and, backing out, the e-mail address SHOULD
>   have disappeared too. This smelled of INTERNAL corruption,
>   employees being very very naughty. I'll NEVER use it now.
>
>   And no, I don't do online banking either. I go TO a bank,
>   get my face in front of HUMANS (and the security cams)
>   any time there's important stuff to do. They know me, I
>   know them. MUCH better.
>
>   In any case, use cash fairly often - it disrupts attempts
>   to "profile" you - by biz or govt. And yes, todays 'AI'
>   really CAN watch everybody all the time, looking for
>   "something" ... it's really an unwarranted search .....
>   waiting for some lawyers to pick up on that ..........

I remember back in around 1995 going into a bank in I think Colorado to
get some cash. I presented the cashier with my UK Mastercard. She looked
at it dubiously "I guess we can try" keyed in the credentials and said
in a surprised choice 'that worked!"

UK is not the most advanced nation in the world but it is well ahead of
the USA.

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 08:05, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> FWIW the Barclays online banking works for me from Linux with
>>>> Firefox
>>>> 101.0, although I don’t have a current account with them so I’m not in a
>>>> position to fully explore what functionality works and what doesn’t.
>>>
>>> It was specifically the SmartInvestor platform* that was broken.
>> Right, not tried it, and looking at the fee structure I won’t be
>> going
>> near it any time soon l-)
>>
>>> I am still using them as a high street bank, because frankly the
>>> others are no better.
>>>
>>> They seem just about able to process direct debits and debit cards and
>>> occasionally provide cash (remember cash>?) at a hole in the wall...
>> I’m trying to forget cash...
>
> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
> dangerously dumb thing, to do.

It’s situational l-) if you’re buying something your government doesn’t
like then using electronic payments isn’t a great plan. But you also
shouldn’t expect governments to have much interest in keeping cash going
past the point in the future that the only surviving use cases are
illegal or at least vote-losers.

If you’re just buying your groceries ... who cares? (In fact I mostly
buy online and have stuff delivered, anyway. My buying patterns are
visible electronically regardless of payment method.)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

25.BX945 <25BZ495@nada.net> wrote:
> I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
> is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
> crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
> watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
> sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
> opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
> might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
> time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
> de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
> for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
> they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
> Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
> coding, then translate to 'C'.

There are lots of daemon supervisers. I use `supervise-daemon` from
OpenRC.

Pastor Pentium <kodak@leica.com> wrote:
> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no deb
> file!
> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
> yum/apt/zypper.
> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!

Well that seems to be a symptom of where Linux is going
these days :( RHEL seems to be planning on forcing flatpak
down our throats. I fear the major Linux Distros is
trying to replicate Apple and to a less extent Microsoft
in creating a walled garden.

I hope the distros that do not buy into
snap/flatpak/systemd can survive these changes. But right
now I am skeptical of this.

BTW, this is more suitable for Linux Advocacy, but I
unsubscribed from that news group because it morphed into
a cesspool of political crap.

--
[t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/06/2022 23:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.
>>
>> Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
>> significant money is kept.
>>
>> With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
>> mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
>> declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
>> online already cause me enough trouble.
>>
> I use one debit card and paypal for everything except direct debits and
> direct bank to bank payments. Like Richard I seldom use cash. I don't
> buy anything that I am ashamed of or really want to conceal from the
> authorities.

It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
EFTPOS hacks.

By making note of whenever I do need to use the card with another
machine, I can go through the statement that the bank mails to me
and check for any unusual transactions, making sure that they were
really me.

For the latter you could use the card everywhere and just
keep/check more records, but I think that's more work than just
paying with cash.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>
>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
>> dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>
> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government doesn't
> like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.

Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example
if you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to
meet with so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel
using your card at the local petrol station there.

But for that to matter you also have to not carry a mobile phone,
otherwise that will track you anyway (or the car itself might do
that these days), and "someplace" better not have traffic cameras
recording number plates. In my case I do in fact usually follow
both of those conditions without really trying.

> But you also
> shouldn't expect governments to have much interest in keeping cash going
> past the point in the future that the only surviving use cases are
> illegal or at least vote-losers.

Trying to expect what governments will do in the future is an
industry in itself. I take it as it comes. That's half the reason I
don't want detailed records on file about everything I do. For all
I know my country might get invaded next year during WWIII and the
occupiers will be checking through those records to pick out likely
dissenters.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 6/8/22 4:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/06/2022 03:45, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.
>>
>>    Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
>>    don't give a shit.
>
> So are Interactive Investor. And they regard not inconveniencing any of
> their customers as good business practice.

But, as I suggested, maybe they're being ENCOURAGED
to inconvenience a certain one percent ....

How much do they spend on MS/Apple biz-related plans
every year ? Even a 1% discount for SCREWING Linux
users would add up to a LOT of money.

On 6/8/22 10:51 AM, John McCue wrote:
> Pastor Pentium <kodak@leica.com> wrote:
>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no deb
>> file!
>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>> yum/apt/zypper.
>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>
> Well that seems to be a symptom of where Linux is going
> these days :( RHEL seems to be planning on forcing flatpak
> down our throats. I fear the major Linux Distros is
> trying to replicate Apple and to a less extent Microsoft
> in creating a walled garden.
>
> I hope the distros that do not buy into
> snap/flatpak/systemd can survive these changes. But right
> now I am skeptical of this.

First off, there's no reason for Joe Average to be
using de-facto "IBM Linux" or any close relative
anymore. It's ruined. Stick to deb/arch/slack-
based distros (and there are other independents).

STUPID/DANGEROUS shit MUST be avoided, fought against.
In the next weeks instead of 'upgrading' my various
U.S. boxes I'm changing them to vanilla Deb instead.
Been looking into Devuan too - for MY purposes I think
I can get by sans systemd without too much trouble.
Just need a simple "multi-watchdog" pgm I can run from
cron. Even wrote my own cron, just in case .....

"Home" use ... you have more elbow-room there. I like MX,
but even there I have removed certain features. If I can't
get it as a .deb or source, I JUST DON'T.

> BTW, this is more suitable for Linux Advocacy, but I
> unsubscribed from that news group because it morphed into
> a cesspool of political crap.

You noticed that ? Seems to be just one or two
who include it in everything they post to more
"political" groups. Likely I'm in there somewhere,
though I *try* to remove Linux groups from the
headers.

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or
>>> a dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>>
>> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government
>> doesn't like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.
>
> Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example if
> you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to meet with
> so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel using your
> card at the local petrol station there.
>
> But for that to matter you also have to not carry a mobile phone,
> otherwise that will track you anyway (or the car itself might do that
> these days), and "someplace" better not have traffic cameras recording
> number plates. In my case I do in fact usually follow both of those
> conditions without really trying.

If you actually want to stop a motivated state from tracking you you’re
going to need to do more than avoid phones and electronic payments,
you’re going to need to avoid any business with security cameras, any
road with ANPR, etc.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

On 09/06/2022 00:11, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
> use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
> you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
> EFTPOS hacks.
>

With contactless, how does that work anyway?

> By making note of whenever I do need to use the card with another
> machine, I can go through the statement that the bank mails to me
> and check for any unusual transactions, making sure that they were
> really me.
>
> For the latter you could use the card everywhere and just
> keep/check more records, but I think that's more work than just
> paying with cash.

Hard to dupe a card when its just being waved.

Online transactions more a problem, but you cant use cash online

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:
>
> If you actually want to stop a motivated state from tracking you you're
> going to need to do more than avoid phones and electronic payments,
> you're going to need to avoid any business with security cameras,

Most businesses with security cameras are only interested in their
own security, they're not going to be uploading the data to some
central government system where people are identified, located, and
recorded in the same way as card payments and phone usage is. At
least not for me in Australia, China and the like are another
matter of course.

Yes cops can request to see footage recorded by businesses, but
only when they're actually investigating a specific crime.

> any road with ANPR, etc.
(ANPR = "Automatic number-plate recognition", according to
Wikipedia)

I don't think there's much of that going on while I'm driving
between various Australian country towns. It's a different case in
the major cities of course.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 09/06/2022 00:11, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
>> use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
>> you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
>> EFTPOS hacks.
>>
>
> With contactless, how does that work anyway?

Much better than with normal cards!

My main debit card doesn't actually support contactless, and my
other cards are only used online with money loaded on immediately
before purchase, so I've never looked into it in much detail. But
there's plenty of evidence to be found:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which
Found via:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID_skimming

> Online transactions more a problem, but you cant use cash online

But I do use different cards with only enough money to pay roughly
what they claim to charge me. "Roughly" because the rule turns out
to be that, with 101 different fees from all sorts of things, I'm
almost always charged a little more than I expect for online
purchases. I've been caught out many times by not putting enough
extra money on, thinking I knew all the fees involved when I'd
actually missed a few, or they charged one twice, etc. etc.

I's good to put a limit on exactly how much they can rip you off
that way at least.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 6/8/22 7:28 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
>>> dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>>
>> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government doesn't
>> like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.
>
> Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example
> if you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to
> meet with so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel
> using your card at the local petrol station there.

It's not just a matter of exactly where you've been. Both
govts and commercial interests build "behavioral profiles"
encompassing everything they've ever seen you buy. Modern
"AI" really CAN watch all the people all the time - and can
report "unusual" behavior - or "commercially exploitable"
behavior.

Using cash regularly makes it very hard to build such
profiles. Not enough solid data points.

On 6/9/22 7:02 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 09/06/2022 00:11, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
>>> use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
>>> you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
>>> EFTPOS hacks.
>>>
>>
>> With contactless, how does that work anyway?
>
> Much better than with normal cards!
>
> My main debit card doesn't actually support contactless, and my
> other cards are only used online with money loaded on immediately
> before purchase, so I've never looked into it in much detail. But
> there's plenty of evidence to be found:
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which
> Found via:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID_skimming
>
>> Online transactions more a problem, but you cant use cash online
>
> But I do use different cards with only enough money to pay roughly
> what they claim to charge me. "Roughly" because the rule turns out
> to be that, with 101 different fees from all sorts of things, I'm
> almost always charged a little more than I expect for online
> purchases. I've been caught out many times by not putting enough
> extra money on, thinking I knew all the fees involved when I'd
> actually missed a few, or they charged one twice, etc. etc.
>
> I's good to put a limit on exactly how much they can rip you off
> that way at least.

YEARS ago I lined my wallet with metallized plastic foil
that'd bounce away the high-frequency signals that can
covertly read yer cards. Good stuff - double-coated mylar
expensive WD disk drives come in. Easy to use.

Decidedly NOT in favor of "contactless" cards ... even
more vulnerable. Stick 'em in the SLOT.

Oh, and yes, I never keep more cash than I can afford to
lose on the debit cards - and do manual, AT THE BANK,
account xfers. Nothing like paper instruments/recipts.
They can't disappear paper. Any issue and you can wave
it in their faces - or better, have yer LAWYER wave
'em in their faces. You'll have no problems.

And NEVER make big deposits thru the ATMs. If it fucks
up they'll always say "Well, you SHOULD have used a
teller ... sorry, we can't help". Banks are orientated
towards MAKING money first and foremost. It's the biz
model for the past couple millenia.