I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
and receive and send email.

When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.

After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
do it.

Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
and drag and drops you like.

What do you think he did?
And how did he do it?

He hates GUIS. But isn't able to do what's necessary without them
I sympathise.

Oh, and any online help for people who are not only unable to use Linux,
but also Windows and IOS on a smart phone, would be welcome ;-) Assume
zero knowledge of how to use a GUI or a mouse.
And don't say use the command line. You cant log into a bank with Lynx

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On 9/2/22 8:03 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> I had installed Linux Mint  on a not very computer literate  friends
> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
> and receive and send email.
>
> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>
> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
> do it.
>
> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
> and drag and drops you like.
>
> What do you think he did?
> And how did he do it?
>
> He hates GUIS. But isn't able to do what's necessary without them
> I sympathise.
>
> Oh, and any online help for people who are not only unable to use Linux,
> but also Windows and IOS on a smart phone, would be welcome ;-) Assume
> zero knowledge of how to use a GUI or a mouse.
> And don't say use  the command line. You cant log into a bank with Lynx

Hmm ... you can make a selection square the size of the
screen and then press <del> - or <ctl>A+<del> ... that
will evaporate your desktop for sure and MAYBE some of
those icons were more like hard links or '.run's, so the
del followed down the rabbit hole ???

Anyway, there are very human interfaces ever devised that
SOMEBODY can't figure out how to screw up. There MAY be
a way to screw up working a light switch .... :-)

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
> and receive and send email.
>
> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>
> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
> do it.
>
> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
> and drag and drops you like.
>
> What do you think he did?

Rename, move, or delete his home directory?

Or another likely, but easily detectable, cause is running out of
space on the partition where /home is. Then programs that
automatically save their configurations on each run may
delete/truncate the old configuration file before failing to create
the new one, ending up with no configuration at all. That's the
circumstance that I'm more familiar with.

> And how did he do it?

Easy to imagine many ways that someone stumbling around a file
manager could mess up their home directory. But I wouldn't know if
there's some mistake that's particularly easy to make with Mint
because I don't use it.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 9/2/22 18:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
>> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
>> and receive and send email.
>>
>> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
>> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>>
>> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
>> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
>> do it.
>>
>> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
>> and drag and drops you like.
>>
>> What do you think he did?
>
> Rename, move, or delete his home directory?
>
> Or another likely, but easily detectable, cause is running out of
> space on the partition where /home is. Then programs that
> automatically save their configurations on each run may
> delete/truncate the old configuration file before failing to create
> the new one, ending up with no configuration at all. That's the
> circumstance that I'm more familiar with.
>
>> And how did he do it?
>
> Easy to imagine many ways that someone stumbling around a file
> manager could mess up their home directory. But I wouldn't know if
> there's some mistake that's particularly easy to make with Mint
> because I don't use it.

I think perhaps one of the new information appliances with overly
simplified GUI might be better than a standard computer for this
individual who hates gui but cannot run a terminal productively.
Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android. I just spent some time trying
to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.

bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Am 03.09.22 um 02:03 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>
> I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
> and receive and send email.
>
> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>
> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
> do it.
>
> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
> and drag and drops you like.
>
> What do you think he did?
> And how did he do it?

Did you set up Mint for this particular user with a non-admin-account
and not giving him/her the admin-password?

It also helps to frequently back-up the system with Timeshift. This can
be done without any intervention by the user.

Even user data can be backed-up in the background on the system. Copies
can be transferred to a HDD when you have access to it.

BTW: I'm working on my Mint with a regular user-account without
root/admin rights. The root/admin-account is only used for system changes.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

On 03/09/2022 02:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
>> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
>> and receive and send email.
>>
>> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
>> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>>
>> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
>> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
>> do it.
>>
>> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
>> and drag and drops you like.
>>
>> What do you think he did?
>
> Rename, move, or delete his home directory?

Bullseye.

I FOUND his home directory as a subdirectory of...his home directory...
/home/him/him ....

AFTER I had reinstalled everything...

>
> Or another likely, but easily detectable, cause is running out of
> space on the partition where /home is. Then programs that
> automatically save their configurations on each run may
> delete/truncate the old configuration file before failing to create
> the new one, ending up with no configuration at all. That's the
> circumstance that I'm more familiar with.
>
>> And how did he do it?
>
> Easy to imagine many ways that someone stumbling around a file
> manager could mess up their home directory. But I wouldn't know if
> there's some mistake that's particularly easy to make with Mint
> because I don't use it.
>

I font think he would have invoked the file manager. I think it was done
somehow from the desktop. If it is possible to click and drag the home
directory into the home directory somehow?

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 03/09/2022 05:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 9/2/22 18:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> I had installed Linux Mint  on a not very computer literate  friends
>>> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
>>> and receive and send email.
>>>
>>> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
>>> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>>>
>>> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
>>> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
>>> do it.
>>>
>>> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
>>> and drag and drops you like.
>>>
>>> What do you think he did?
>>
>> Rename, move, or delete his home directory?
>>
>> Or another likely, but easily detectable, cause is running out of
>> space on the partition where /home is. Then programs that
>> automatically save their configurations on each run may
>> delete/truncate the old configuration file before failing to create
>> the new one, ending up with no configuration at all. That's the
>> circumstance that I'm more familiar with.
>>
>>> And how did he do it?
>>
>> Easy to imagine many ways that someone stumbling around a file
>> manager could mess up their home directory. But I wouldn't know if
>> there's some mistake that's particularly easy to make with Mint
>> because I don't use it.
>
>     I think perhaps one of the new information appliances with overly
> simplified GUI might be better than a standard computer for this
> individual who hates gui but cannot run a terminal productively.
> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>
>     bliss
>
If there is one thing he, like me, hates more than a GUI, it is a touch
screen.

MOST of his problems arise because the primary means of control,the
mouse, does different things depending on where it is.

A secondary issue is eyesight: If you expand the screen enough to read
it with poor eyesight, half off the buttons you need top click on, are
now hidden.

I spent 15 minutes at the side of the road trying to get out of a place
my android based satnav had gone because i picked up the phone and
'touched the screen inappropriately'.

What I was hoping, and at least you are suggesting constructive
alternatives, is that there is a way to set up Linux so as to eliminate
as many possibilities as can be done.

And establish one single way to get to a limited number of applications.

And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.

I.e it would be nice to sort of set up the apps so that only a sysadmin
could change them.

Teh problem with Linux is that it is just too user configurable. The
thing about a Mac, is that there is only one way - the Mac way - which
makes it useful for idiots

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 03/09/2022 08:11, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 03.09.22 um 02:03 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
>>
>> I had installed Linux Mint on a not very computer literate friends
>> computer in order primarily to access his bank and investment portfolio
>> and receive and send email.
>>
>> When I fired up his machine yesterday, every single icon on the desktop
>> had vanished as had his browser and email configurations.
>>
>> After a couple of hours when I had recreated it all, I discovered *what*
>> he had inadvertently done, but I am still not sure *how* he managed to
>> do it.
>>
>> Assume any number of random mouse clicks, scroll events, bad eyesight
>> and drag and drops you like.
>>
>> What do you think he did?
>> And how did he do it?
>
> Did you set up Mint for this particular user with a non-admin-account

yes.

> and not giving him/her the admin-password?

well it is by default his own password, as in sudo...

>
> It also helps to frequently back-up the system with Timeshift. This can
> be done without any intervention by the user.
>
That is a good idead.

> Even user data can be backed-up in the background on the system. Copies
> can be transferred to a HDD when you have access to it.
>
> BTW: I'm working on my Mint with a regular user-account without
> root/admin rights. The root/admin-account is only used for system changes.
>
Oh he managed all this without using root permissions.

Computer Nerd Kev, spotted it right away. SOMEHOW he moved his entire
home directory into itself.

Leaving his original home directory EMPTY except for one subdirectory -
his original home directory!

I have set up MATE so that his home directory and 'My Computer' are no
longer visible on the desktop.

And set up icons for email, his banking website and his investment website.

But even Thunderbird is proving a challenge. It's loaded with far too
many features and can change appearance completely at the accidental
click of a mouse.

His complaint is that at least in a car. the gear lever does not become
the way to apply the brakes when you turn the steering wheel to the left.

TBH his experience is the complete indictment of the whole GUI experiment.
Stuff has been made far far more complex than it needs to be to do the
simple jobs.

I fired up libre office to compose a crib sheet, and wanted to make a
table have solid lines, so I went looking through the menus. 5 minutes
later I hadn't found the right menu screen so I gave up.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.

Kiosk mode.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.

The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping and
sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can happen by
accident.

Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
main screen, but on the second.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 03/09/2022 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.
>
> Kiosk mode.
>
Ye, How do you do that?

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>
> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping and
> sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can happen by
> accident.
>
> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
> main screen, but on the second.
>
That would be me, mostly. :-)

Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of any
computer ever that I have used.

Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its GUI.

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I fired up libre office to compose a crib sheet, and wanted to make a
> table have solid lines, so I went looking through the menus. 5 minutes
> later I hadn't found the right menu screen so I gave up.

On the slightly off chance you still want to know:

With the text insertion cursor somewhere inside a cell of the table,
right click and pick "table properties".

In the window that will appear, pick the "borders" tab.

Here you can pick line thickness/color (although usually 'thin' and
'black' are defaults. In the upper left, under "Line Arrangement" (at
least that is what is says for my LibreOffice version) there are
several small icons under "default". On mine, the fourth button from
the left, if hovered over, says "Set Outer Border and All Inner Lines".
Clicking that (and then pressing "ok") will set the table to have "all
the lines" printed.

On 2022-09-03 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.
>>
>> Kiosk mode.
>>
> Ye, How do you do that?

I have never done it myself, I would have to investigate :-D

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>
>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>> happen by accident.
>>
>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>> main screen, but on the second.
>>
> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>
> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of any
> computer ever that I have used.
>
> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its GUI.

Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes too
hard.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-03, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>>
>>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>>> happen by accident.
>>>
>>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>>> main screen, but on the second.
>>>
>> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>>
>> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of any
>> computer ever that I have used.
>>
>> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its GUI.
>
> Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
> things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes too
> hard.

I'd rather find ways to get by without it.

Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more
to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 03/09/2022 17:13, Rich wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I fired up libre office to compose a crib sheet, and wanted to make a
>> table have solid lines, so I went looking through the menus. 5 minutes
>> later I hadn't found the right menu screen so I gave up.
>
> On the slightly off chance you still want to know:

There is always next time...
>
> With the text insertion cursor somewhere inside a cell of the table,
> right click and pick "table properties".
>
> In the window that will appear, pick the "borders" tab.
>
> Here you can pick line thickness/color (although usually 'thin' and
> 'black' are defaults. In the upper left, under "Line Arrangement" (at
> least that is what is says for my LibreOffice version) there are
> several small icons under "default". On mine, the fourth button from
> the left, if hovered over, says "Set Outer Border and All Inner Lines".
> Clicking that (and then pressing "ok") will set the table to have "all
> the lines" printed.

I know how to do it once the right screen is selected, I couldn't work
out how to get to that screen.

Libre office is really a page layout engine these days. Except that the
one I use for that - Scribus - is actually easier to use.

The only thing that Libre office is good for in my personal workspace is
long reports or books. where the pain of setting up the formatting is
offset by the length of the book

It is another project lost to the weed of creeping fearuurism and lack
of pruning

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On 03/09/2022 20:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-09-03 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/09/2022 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.
>>>
>>> Kiosk mode.
>>>
>> Ye, How do you do that?
>
> I have never done it myself, I would have to investigate :-D
>
>
Found out how to do it on a web browser - unfortunately you cant exit
from it easily.

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 03/09/2022 21:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>>
>>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>>> happen by accident.
>>>
>>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>>> main screen, but on the second.
>>>
>> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>>
>> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of
>> any computer ever that I have used.
>>
>> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its
>> GUI.
>
> Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
> things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes too
> hard.
>
>
I already am aged.

The problem is the banks mostly are only interested in selling to the
young, so its all apple and android apps, whereas for people like us, we
need large screens with big fonts and preferably big buttons to press.

A few years back we bought a 'simple mobile phone' with big buttons and
a big single character screen for an elderly person.
The instruction manual was in 6 point font. I scanned it at 600 dpi and
blew it up to A4 size.

My banking software has a screen that only has to gave 4 boxes filled in
and then a 'submit' button filled in.

The submit button is *off the screen* at any zoom factor that makes the
thing legible to anyone with less than 20/20 vision. Designed by
ArtStudents™ to whom 'ergonomics' is an illegal sexual activity.

After you have filled in the details the only button visible is the one
saying 'have you lost your PIN?'

Another bank guides you through help screens to either a video telling
you how to do it (handy if you have no sound) or back to the page where
you failed to achieve success the first time around.

The problem with modern software is that high level tools have enabled
incompetent 'creatives' to produce web sites that simply fail to work.

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 03/09/2022 21:25, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-09-03, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>>>
>>>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>>>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>>>> happen by accident.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>>>> main screen, but on the second.
>>>>
>>> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>>>
>>> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of any
>>> computer ever that I have used.
>>>
>>> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its GUI.
>>
>> Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
>> things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes too
>> hard.
>
> I'd rather find ways to get by without it.
>
+1.

in reality, my smartphone has ended up doing 3 things for which I need
the phone, and a fourth that depends merely on its existence.

1/. SMS texts. 2FA codes and NHS appointment reminders come in via this
means
2/. Satnav. A satnav transferable amongst vehicles with always up to day
information is the one thing I have found it useful for
3/. Whatsapp. That is my primary means of personal communication, but I
use it on this desktop machine. I just need the phine to enable me to do
that
4/. E-book reader. Whilst waiting in hospital waiting rooms etc etc.

I almost never use it to make calls, and I rarely use it to receive calls.
All my normal contacts are on whatsapp.

> Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify.
> -- Henry David Thoreau
>
> Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more
> to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
> -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 2022-09-04 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 20:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-09-03 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 03/09/2022 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.
>>>>
>>>> Kiosk mode.
>>>>
>>> Ye, How do you do that?
>>
>> I have never done it myself, I would have to investigate :-D
>>
>>
> Found out how to do it on a web browser - unfortunately you cant exit
> from it easily.

That's precisely the idea.

But you need desktop kiosk mode, not browser kiosk mode.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-04 11:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 21:25, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-09-03, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>>>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>>>>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>>>>> happen by accident.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>>>>> main screen, but on the second.
>>>>>
>>>> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of any
>>>> computer ever that I have used.
>>>>
>>>> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master
>>>> its GUI.
>>>
>>> Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
>>> things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes too
>>> hard.
>>
>> I'd rather find ways to get by without it.
>>
> +1.

Doesn't depend on you.

>
> in reality, my smartphone has ended up doing 3 things for which I need
> the phone, and a fourth that depends merely on its existence.
>
> 1/. SMS texts. 2FA codes and NHS appointment reminders come in via this
> means
> 2/. Satnav. A satnav transferable amongst vehicles with always up to day
> information is the one thing I have found it useful for
> 3/. Whatsapp. That is my primary means of personal communication, but I
> use it on this desktop machine. I just need the phine to enable me to do
> that
> 4/. E-book reader. Whilst waiting in hospital waiting rooms etc etc.
>
> I almost never use it to make calls, and I rarely use it to receive calls.
> All my normal contacts are on whatsapp.

Well, so you are using it.

There are more. For example:

- 2FA codes for using the bank on the computer. For this, you need to
install the bank app on the phone, because SMSs are not considered safe
enough.

- Contact the doctor and explain whatever you need or feel, because
the doctor now uses online "visits" instead of you going to the doctor.

- Video conferencing, using different apps.

I have a neighbour, a couple, that despite having a smartphone, can't
use it. So when they need to book an appointment with the doctor, for
instance, they have to phone their daughter to do it for them. Most
appointments now have to be done that way, after covid. Before, they
could phone and book an appointment. Today, the phone line is always
busy or doesn't answer. And if they go without an appointment they are
rejected.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-04 11:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 21:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-09-03 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 03/09/2022 13:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-09-03 06:30, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>> Maybe a tablet with Chrome or Android.  I just spent some time trying
>>>>> to find stuff for which I have seen advertisement but no luck.
>>>>
>>>> The "icons" on the Android "desktop" can be deleted, just by tapping
>>>> and sliding. Worse, you can uninstall them. And typing-sliding can
>>>> happen by accident.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I know people that are unable to find apps that are not in the
>>>> main screen, but on the second.
>>>>
>>> That would be me, mostly. :-)
>>>
>>> Smartphone is as far as I am concerned the worst user experience of
>>> any computer ever that I have used.
>>>
>>> Worst of all I completely lack the interest to even try to master its
>>> GUI.
>>
>> Master, no, but use it sufficiently, you should be able. More and more
>> things will depend on it, specially as we age, when learning becomes
>> too hard.
>>
>>
> I already am aged.

Me too. Not much, but feeling it.

>
> The problem is the banks mostly are only interested in selling to the
> young, so its all apple and android apps, whereas for people like us, we
> need large screens with big fonts and preferably big buttons to press.
>
> A few years back we bought a 'simple mobile phone' with big buttons and
> a big single character screen for an elderly person.

Seen that.

> The instruction manual was in 6 point font. I scanned it at 600 dpi and
> blew it up to A4 size.

Yuk.

>
> My banking software has a screen that only has to gave 4 boxes filled in
> and then a 'submit' button filled in.
>
> The submit button is *off the screen* at any zoom factor that makes the
> thing legible to anyone with less than 20/20 vision. Designed by
> ArtStudents™ to whom 'ergonomics' is  an illegal sexual activity.

Yuk.

>
> After you have filled in the details the only button visible is the one
> saying 'have you lost your PIN?'
>
> Another bank guides you through help screens to either a video telling
> you how to do it (handy if you have no sound) or back to the page where
> you failed to achieve success the first time around.
>
> The problem with modern software is that high level tools have enabled
> incompetent 'creatives' to produce web sites that simply fail to work.

I know.

I have no sight problem yet, but I have to fight with government pages
to do this or that. Fight for days, sometimes weeks. Designed by donkeys.

Some complicated page to fill up a form, and it would time out when I
was in the middle. I had to prepare all the fields in a text file to
copy paste the texts fast before the timeout.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2022-09-04 11:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 03/09/2022 17:13, Rich wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> I fired up libre office to compose a crib sheet, and wanted to make a
>>> table have solid lines, so I went looking through the menus. 5 minutes
>>> later I hadn't found the right menu screen so I gave up.
>>
>> On the slightly off chance you still want to know:
>
> There is always next time...
>>
>> With the text insertion cursor somewhere inside a cell of the table,
>> right click and pick "table properties".
>>
>> In the window that will appear, pick the "borders" tab.
>>
>> Here you can pick line thickness/color (although usually 'thin' and
>> 'black' are defaults.  In the upper left, under "Line Arrangement" (at
>> least that is what is says for my LibreOffice version) there are
>> several small icons under "default".  On mine, the fourth button from
>> the left, if hovered over, says "Set Outer Border and All Inner Lines".
>> Clicking that (and then pressing "ok") will set the table to have "all
>> the lines" printed.
>
> I know how to do it once the right screen is selected, I couldn't work
> out how to get to that screen.
>
> Libre office is really a page layout engine these days. Except that the
> one I use for that - Scribus - is actually easier to use.
>
> The only thing that Libre office is good for in my personal workspace is
> long reports or books. where the pain of setting up the formatting is
> offset by the length of the book

If you are going to write a book, use other tools, like LyX, or full
Latex if you are up to it.

>
> It is another project lost to the weed of creeping fearuurism and lack
> of pruning
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 04/09/2022 12:50, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-09-04 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/09/2022 20:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-09-03 14:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 03/09/2022 12:59, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-09-03 12:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> And freeze application configurations to *eliminate options*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kiosk mode.
>>>>>
>>>> Ye, How do you do that?
>>>
>>> I have never done it myself, I would have to investigate :-D
>>>
>>>
>> Found out how to do it on a web browser - unfortunately you cant exit
>> from it easily.
>
> That's precisely the idea.
>
> But you need desktop kiosk mode, not browser kiosk mode.
>
>
Yes. What I want is a web browser shorn of its menus with no possibility
of upsetting its configuration. Kiosk mode is close, but it needs a
closable and resizable frame. Not a full screen experience.

Probably a mail client something like 1/10th as 'feature rich' as
thunderbird, that also cannot be 'administered' by a user.

And a users home directory, that cannot be moved by the user...

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson