"Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."

https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html

Discussion on Hacker News
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652

Andrei Z. <no-email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>
> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html

Very interesting. For fun I decided to try this on 32-bit OpenWrt
22.03 (MIPS32), which uses Musl libc, seeing as this latest major
release of OpenWrt claims to be year 2038 safe:
https://openwrt.org/releases/22.03/notes-22.03.0#year_2038_problem_handled

Curiously everything worked like the GNU Date results shown there,
except for the second test ('date --date @-1'):

root@OpenWrt:~# ls -l `which date`
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Sep 3 12:55 /bin/date -> busybox
root@OpenWrt:~# TZ=UTC date --date @0
Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 UTC 1970
root@OpenWrt:~# TZ=UTC date --date @-1
date: invalid date '@-1'
root@OpenWrt:~# TZ=UTC date --date @1
Thu Jan 1 00:00:01 UTC 1970
root@OpenWrt:~# TZ=UTC date --date @-2
Wed Dec 31 23:59:58 UTC 1969

For some reason it won't take '-1' seconds, though other negative
values work the same as the GNU Date results on that page (except
shown in 24-hour format).

BusyBox version is v1.35.0.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>
> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>
> Discussion on Hacker News
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652

Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
an illusion. Time is duration aka how long something
lasts. I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
a useful idea.

bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>
>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>
>> Discussion on Hacker News
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>
>     Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>     Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
> a useful idea.
>
>    bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.

Unix time will outlast Unix. It has been used as a
basis for "big important expensive data" for so
long that we're stuck with it. Unix (and all others)
WILL go away - 25 years probably - as all-purpose
"AI" style omnisystems - which can pretend to be
any old system as a side-feature kinda like yer
phone can be a calculator, watch and pocket pager -
become practical all-consuming "must-have"s.

And the eventual "AI"s ... think kind of like
"Jarvis" in those Iron Man movies. Of course
he WILL spy on you for the govt and industry
and intentionally try to lead you in directions
of thought and action which serve those masters,
and blab if you don't ......

On 06/11/2022 02:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>
>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>
>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>
>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>> a useful idea.
>>
>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>
>
>   Unix time will outlast Unix.

cal has disappeared from Ubuntu 22.04!!!!!

Pancho wrote:
> On 06/11/2022 02:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>>
>>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>>
>>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>>
>>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>>> a useful idea.
>>>
>>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>>
>>
>>    Unix time will outlast Unix.
>
> cal has disappeared from Ubuntu 22.04!!!!!
>
>
>
>
$ apt show ncal
....
This package contains the "ncal" program and the traditional "cal"
program, both are commonly found on BSD-style systems. ...

$ apt policy ncal
ncal:
Installed: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
Candidate: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
Version table:
*** 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2 500
500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/universe amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

On 11/5/22 19:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>
>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>
>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>
>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>> a useful idea.
>>
>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>
>
>   Unix time will outlast Unix. It has been used as a
>   basis for "big important expensive data" for so
>   long that we're stuck with it. Unix (and all others)
>   WILL go away - 25 years probably - as all-purpose
>   "AI" style omnisystems - which can pretend to be
>   any old system as a side-feature kinda like yer
>   phone can be a calculator, watch and pocket pager -
>   become practical all-consuming "must-have"s.
>
>   And the eventual "AI"s ... think kind of like
>   "Jarvis" in those Iron Man movies. Of course
>   he WILL spy on you for the govt and industry
>   and intentionally try to lead you in directions
>   of thought and action which serve those masters,
>   and blab if you don't ......

At 85 yoa I doubt AI will have much of anything to
do with me in 25 years or earlier. On the other hand in
China proper, not Taiwan, the authorities have already instituted
what appears to be adequate surveillance by cell phone with
Social Credit rewards to reward Good Thought/Action, punish the
less good action with with Cell phones. Only the leaders escape
this tight control. If we had the same thing with the leaders
included it might be good. The leaders less than good actions
are worse than those of private citizens because they affect
all the citizens and perhaps those outside its national borders.

Back in my distant youth I read I believe a SF story in
Worlds of If SF magazine a world in which helpers were devised
supposedly to help people remember important matters. Not
depicting miniaturization the ultimate version sat astride
the shoulders and gave electrical shocks to make sure you
got to appointment and to your work station on time. The
Chinese authorities have not figured that out but with cell
phones have figured out other was to enforce conformance.

bliss - ancient of days, young at heart...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 11/6/22 10:43 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 11/5/22 19:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>>
>>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>>
>>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>>
>>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>>> a useful idea.
>>>
>>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>>
>>
>>    Unix time will outlast Unix. It has been used as a
>>    basis for "big important expensive data" for so
>>    long that we're stuck with it. Unix (and all others)
>>    WILL go away - 25 years probably - as all-purpose
>>    "AI" style omnisystems - which can pretend to be
>>    any old system as a side-feature kinda like yer
>>    phone can be a calculator, watch and pocket pager -
>>    become practical all-consuming "must-have"s.
>>
>>    And the eventual "AI"s ... think kind of like
>>    "Jarvis" in those Iron Man movies. Of course
>>    he WILL spy on you for the govt and industry
>>    and intentionally try to lead you in directions
>>    of thought and action which serve those masters,
>>    and blab if you don't ......
>
>     At 85 yoa I doubt AI will have much of anything to
> do with me in 25 years or earlier.   On the other hand in
> China proper, not Taiwan, the authorities have already instituted
> what appears to be adequate surveillance by cell phone with
> Social Credit rewards to reward Good Thought/Action, punish the
> less good action with with Cell phones.  Only the leaders escape
> this tight control.  If we had the same thing with the leaders
> included it might be good.  The leaders less than good actions
> are worse than those of private citizens because they affect
> all the citizens and perhaps those outside its national borders.
>
>     Back in my distant youth I read I believe a SF story in
> Worlds of If SF magazine a world in which helpers were devised
> supposedly to help people remember important matters. Not
> depicting miniaturization the ultimate version sat astride
> the shoulders and gave electrical shocks to make sure you
> got to appointment and to your work station on time.  The
> Chinese authorities have not figured that out but with cell
> phones have figured out other was to enforce conformance.
>
> bliss - ancient of days, young at heart...

"Young at heart" MAY get you to the AI takeover :-)

But yea, they DID use Orwell as a "How To" handbook.
Alas even Orwell didn't imagine smart-phones ... with
people VOLUNTEERING to carry around the spy devices.

Those "helpers" ... sounds like what Musk is working on.
The implants will be "for your own good" of course ...

It's a close parallel to an old (50s) three or four page
SF by Heinlein where everybody was fitted with shock/noise
devices to cripple those with capabilities anywhere above
'equitable' normal. Visionary. Of course now they're
crippled by Twitter/FB/etc ... fed crap and pablum and
alleged "what everybody thinks/knows" until their brains
rot away.

At SOME point, this Dali-Verse WILL implode. It's just
not sustainable. The Powers will push it and push it,
getting further and further away from reality, until
nobody knows what's what, what to do, what's real -
and then BOOM. Can't run yer life, much less whole
countries, like that.

On 11/6/22 8:00 AM, Andrei Z. wrote:
> Pancho wrote:
>> On 06/11/2022 02:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>>>
>>>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>>>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>>>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>>>> a useful idea.
>>>>
>>>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>>>
>>>
>>>    Unix time will outlast Unix.
>>
>> cal has disappeared from Ubuntu 22.04!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
> $ apt show ncal
> ...
> This package contains the "ncal" program and the traditional "cal"
> program, both are commonly found on BSD-style systems. ...
>
> $ apt policy ncal
> ncal:
>   Installed: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
>   Candidate: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
>   Version table:
>  *** 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2 500
>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/universe amd64 Packages
>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>

I've noticed a number of olde-tyme utilities disappearing.
OpenSUSE dropped a number I was using, and now the trend
seems to be spreading. The "improved" versions really ain't.

Problem - lots of software saves a LOT of code by just running
those utilities in a shell and parsing what comes back. Suddenly
it's broken ....

And I *do* prefer 'ifconfig' to 'ip'. Much more straight-up
informative report ... what you're REALLY looking for .....

On 07/11/2022 03:35, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> At SOME point, this Dali-Verse WILL implode. It's just
>   not sustainable. The Powers will push it and push it,
>   getting further and further away from reality, until
>   nobody knows what's what, what to do, what's real -
>   and then BOOM. Can't run yer life, much less whole
>   countries, like that.

+10001.

Its fairly clear that politicians are not running the world.
It is far from clear who actually is, and one suspects they like it that
way.
What is clear is that they are going to drive civilisation into a state
of collapse, either intentionally or through utter incompetence.

It's happened before. It's happening now. The human sacrifices on the
temple steps of the PriestHood of SavingThePlanet will in the end not
keep the priests alive, and the people that will survive will melt back
into the jungle and sow corn and keep pigs, because ultimately that is
all they know how to do.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 07/11/2022 03:35, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>
>>> At SOME point, this Dali-Verse WILL implode. It's just
>>>   not sustainable. The Powers will push it and push it,
>>>   getting further and further away from reality, until
>>>   nobody knows what's what, what to do, what's real -
>>>   and then BOOM. Can't run yer life, much less whole
>>>   countries, like that.
>>
>> +10001.
>
> Add one more. I've always said that reality is like a rubber band.
> You can stretch it a long way - but eventually it snaps, and that hurts.
>
>> Its fairly clear that politicians are not running the world.
>> It is far from clear who actually is, and one suspects they like it that
>> way.
>
> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.

If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
ruin ???

Nope, the corps aren't running things either.

I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
to any relevant degree. Think of that silver ball
in a pinball machine ... users try to tap it in
one direction or another, but that's only just so
successful. Random factors intervene, the players
are only just SO good ...

Now it's fun to blame "Them" ... but observe and
THINK about it. The longer picture just does not
seem to reflect any "Them" ... it's TOO disordered.

I think what we usually see are ordinary humans
with their ordinary human instincts bouncing off
each other. Any "order" is short-lived, almost
accidental, a short-term behavioral 'harmonic
convergence"/"emergent property" as you'd expect
from similarly-wired individuals of the
same species.

On 11/7/22 10:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/11/2022 06:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-11-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/11/2022 03:35, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>
>>>> At SOME point, this Dali-Verse WILL implode. It's just
>>>>     not sustainable. The Powers will push it and push it,
>>>>     getting further and further away from reality, until
>>>>     nobody knows what's what, what to do, what's real -
>>>>     and then BOOM. Can't run yer life, much less whole
>>>>     countries, like that.
>>>
>>> +10001.
>>
>> Add one more.  I've always said that reality is like a rubber band.
>> You can stretch it a long way - but eventually it snaps, and that hurts.
>>
>>> Its fairly clear that politicians are not running the world.
>>> It is far from clear who actually is, and one suspects they like it that
>>> way.
>>
>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>
> Mmm. A friend last night said that it wasn't even intentional.
> Corporations divide responsibility and people just go for whatever keeps
> them their jobs and no one is really in control at all

Heh heh ... see my post a notch or two up the line :-)

NOBODY is "in charge" - no "Them". Fun to talk about
your favorite "Them" but the longer-term picture
just doesn't bear it out. "Order" is more accidental,
a temporary emergent behavior from similarly-wired
individuals of the same species.

On 11/7/22 11:44 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 07/11/2022 06:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>
>> Mmm. A friend last night said that it wasn't even intentional.
>> Corporations divide responsibility and people just go for whatever
>> keeps them their jobs and no one is really in control at all
>
> Still, I've heard lots of sanctimonious statements from CEOs,
> most of which are echoed by the politicians they've bought.

But neither are REALLY "in charge" of the world, just
little bits of it for the short term.

On 11/8/22 21:32, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 11/7/22 10:42 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 07/11/2022 06:21, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/11/2022 03:35, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At SOME point, this Dali-Verse WILL implode. It's just
>>>>>     not sustainable. The Powers will push it and push it,
>>>>>     getting further and further away from reality, until
>>>>>     nobody knows what's what, what to do, what's real -
>>>>>     and then BOOM. Can't run yer life, much less whole
>>>>>     countries, like that.
>>>>
>>>> +10001.
>>>
>>> Add one more.  I've always said that reality is like a rubber band.
>>> You can stretch it a long way - but eventually it snaps, and that hurts.
>>>
>>>> Its fairly clear that politicians are not running the world.
>>>> It is far from clear who actually is, and one suspects they like it
>>>> that
>>>> way.
>>>
>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>>
>> Mmm. A friend last night said that it wasn't even intentional.
>> Corporations divide responsibility and people just go for whatever
>> keeps them their jobs and no one is really in control at all
>
>
>   Heh heh ... see my post a notch or two up the line :-)
>
>   NOBODY is "in charge" - no "Them". Fun to talk about
>   your favorite "Them" but the longer-term picture
>   just doesn't bear it out. "Order" is more accidental,
>   a temporary emergent behavior from similarly-wired
>   individuals of the same species.

No One is in charge. We are supposed to be in charge but
people who do not vote are abdicating their sole authority over
whatever comes to pass. Well that is the USA where all the
voters are in charge. I voted and the USA and California have
to live with my choices and those of the rest of the Electorate.

In Linux, Linus has the final word.

bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
> No One is in charge. We are supposed to be in charge but
> people who do not vote are abdicating their sole authority over
> whatever comes to pass. Well that is the USA where all the
> voters are in charge. I voted and the USA and California have
> to live with my choices and those of the rest of the Electorate.

I don't have to live with my choices, the electorate never gives
me a chance to.

> In Linux, Linus has the final word.

Back on topic! But even if he has the final word, it will only get
him so far if he wants to sustain Linux as the main focus for OS
code contributed by programmers from large organisations. A fine
example is the death of XFree86 - the leadership annoyed some of
the contributors, including those working for big businesses, so
those contributors just went their own way with Xorg and left the
XFree86 project to gradually run down to a stop.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 22:41:53 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:

> I've noticed a number of olde-tyme utilities disappearing.
> OpenSUSE dropped a number I was using, and now the trend
> seems to be spreading. The "improved" versions really ain't.
>
> Problem - lots of software saves a LOT of code by just running
> those utilities in a shell and parsing what comes back. Suddenly
> it's broken ....
>
> And I *do* prefer 'ifconfig' to 'ip'. Much more straight-up
> informative report ... what you're REALLY looking for .....

Your options are change distribution or find desired package and install
it yourself. ifconfig still available in Mageia Linux

$ gsr ifconfig
Looked for : ifconfig
Using : /usr/sbin/ifconfig
Installed rpm : net-tools-2.0-0.20150915git.6.mga8
rpm short name: net-tools
Source rpm : net-tools-2.0-0.20150915git.6.mga8.src.rpm
Information : http://www.tazenda.demon.co.uk/phil/net-tools/
Packager : umeabot <umeabot>
Summary : The basic tools for setting up networking

but after reading this snippet from ifconfig man page
This program is obsolete! For replacement check ip addr and ip link.
For statistics use ip -s link.

I modified all my scripts ifconfig to ip commands and put ip commands
in my unix.help text files for easy lookup.

$ uh _ifconfig_obsolete_
_ifconfig_obsolete_ ip address
_ifconfig_obsolete_ ip link
_ifconfig_obsolete_ ip -s link
_ifconfig_obsolete_ ip -br link show dev $_net_nic
_ifconfig_obsolete_ https://access.redhat.com/sites/default/files/attachments/rh_ip_command_cheatsheet_1214_jcs_print.pdf

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 00:10:03 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>
> On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>
> If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
> out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
> ruin ???
>
> Nope, the corps aren't running things either.
>
> I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
> to any relevant degree.

There was a user "nobody" on one of my old Linux installations. Cannot
find it on Debian here anymore though.

Oh, we're not talking about Linux/UNIX here anymore? Sorry for
mentioning it. :-/ [1]

> Think of that silver ball in a pinball machine ... users try to tap it
> in one direction or another, but that's only just so successful. Random
> factors intervene, the players are only just SO good ...

Like how much beer you had. Too little and you play bad, probably
worse. Need to find the right balance.

[1] I'm ignoring this thread now.
--
Andreas

Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>
>> And I *do* prefer 'ifconfig' to 'ip'. Much more straight-up
>> informative report ... what you're REALLY looking for .....
>
> Your options are change distribution or find desired package and install
> it yourself. ifconfig still available in Mageia Linux
>
> $ gsr ifconfig
> Looked for : ifconfig
> Using : /usr/sbin/ifconfig
> Installed rpm : net-tools-2.0-0.20150915git.6.mga8
> rpm short name: net-tools
> Source rpm : net-tools-2.0-0.20150915git.6.mga8.src.rpm
> Information : http://www.tazenda.demon.co.uk/phil/net-tools/
> Packager : umeabot <umeabot>
> Summary : The basic tools for setting up networking
>
> but after reading this snippet from ifconfig man page
> This program is obsolete! For replacement check ip addr and ip link.
> For statistics use ip -s link.
>
> I modified all my scripts ifconfig to ip commands and put ip commands
> in my unix.help text files for easy lookup.

It doesn't have that on Debian, but for some reason they've stuck
to net-tools version 1.60.

There's also an ifconfig program in GNU inetutils which is
interchangable for my usage (inetutils-tools package on Debian),
and it doesn't advertise obsolescence so far as I know. Plus
there's a bare-bones ifconfig command available in Busybox.

I don't expect to be deprived of it any time soon.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 2022-11-07 04:41, 26C.Z968 wrote:
> On 11/6/22 8:00 AM, Andrei Z. wrote:
>> Pancho wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2022 02:02, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>> On 10/29/22 10:51 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>>> On 10/28/22 01:51, Andrei Z. wrote:
>>>>>> "Time is an illusion, Unix time doubly so..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.netmeister.org/blog/epoch.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Discussion on Hacker News
>>>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33341652
>>>>>
>>>>>      Wait until you are over 80 to tell us time is
>>>>> an illusion.  Time is duration aka how long something
>>>>> lasts.  I have lasted with changes over 85 years.
>>>>>      Unix time is as long as Unix lasts and is
>>>>> a useful idea.
>>>>>
>>>>>     bliss-the ineluctable, formerly implacable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Unix time will outlast Unix.
>>>
>>> cal has disappeared from Ubuntu 22.04!!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> $ apt show ncal
>> ...
>> This package contains the "ncal" program and the traditional "cal"
>> program, both are commonly found on BSD-style systems. ...
>>
>> $ apt policy ncal
>> ncal:
>>    Installed: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
>>    Candidate: 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2
>>    Version table:
>>   *** 12.1.7+nmu3ubuntu2 500
>>          500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/universe amd64
>> Packages
>>          100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>>
>
>   I've noticed a number of olde-tyme utilities disappearing.
>   OpenSUSE dropped a number I was using, and now the trend
>   seems to be spreading. The "improved" versions really ain't.
>
>   Problem - lots of software saves a LOT of code by just running
>   those utilities in a shell and parsing what comes back. Suddenly
>   it's broken ....
>
>   And I *do* prefer 'ifconfig' to 'ip'. Much more straight-up
>   informative report ... what you're REALLY looking for .....

openSUSE has ifconfig, if you really want it. But you shouldn't.

For instance:

With the servers that mount Infiniband cards, when I use the ifconfig
command, I get this warning:

Ifconfig uses the ioctl access method to get the full address
information, which limits hardware addresses to 8 bytes.
Because Infiniband address has 20 bytes, only the first 8 bytes
are displayed correctly.
Ifconfig is obsolete! For replacement check ip.

https://inai.de/2008/02/19?range=2008/02/19

ifconfig sucks

On Linux, ifconfig is an archaic network interface configuration
command. The implementation commonly encountered, "net-tools", has a
number of problems which make it more and more unsuitable. The list of
replacements is below.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:52:15 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 00:10:03 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>
>> On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>
>> If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
>> out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
>> ruin ???
>>
>> Nope, the corps aren't running things either.
>>
>> I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
>> to any relevant degree.
>
> There was a user "nobody" on one of my old Linux installations. Cannot
> find it on Debian here anymore though.

Still here on My Mageia Linux
$ grep nobody /etc/passwd
nobody:x:65534:65534:Nobody:/:/bin/sh

Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:52:15 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 00:10:03 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>>
>>> If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
>>> out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
>>> ruin ???
>>>
>>> Nope, the corps aren't running things either.
>>>
>>> I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
>>> to any relevant degree.
>>
>> There was a user "nobody" on one of my old Linux installations. Cannot
>> find it on Debian here anymore though.
>
> Still here on My Mageia Linux
> $ grep nobody /etc/passwd
> nobody:x:65534:65534:Nobody:/:/bin/sh

In my Fedora it's more specific and blocked (nologin)
nobody:x:65534:65534:Kernel Overflow User:/:/sbin/nologin

G

On 2022-11-11 01:57, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:52:15 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 00:10:03 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>>
>>> If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
>>> out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
>>> ruin ???
>>>
>>> Nope, the corps aren't running things either.
>>>
>>> I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
>>> to any relevant degree.
>>
>> There was a user "nobody" on one of my old Linux installations. Cannot
>> find it on Debian here anymore though.
>
> Still here on My Mageia Linux
> $ grep nobody /etc/passwd
> nobody:x:65534:65534:Nobody:/:/bin/sh

Telcontar:~ # grep nobody /etc/passwd
nobody:x:65534:65533:nobody:/var/lib/nobody:/bin/bash
Telcontar:~ #

openSUSE Leap.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 11/11/2022 00:57, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:52:15 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 00:10:03 -0500, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/7/22 1:21 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> The new system of governance is corporate fascism.
>>>
>>> If so, why do they allow pols that tax/regulate them
>>> out of zillions of dollars - or just drive them to
>>> ruin ???
>>>
>>> Nope, the corps aren't running things either.
>>>
>>> I am going to posit that NOBODY is "running things"
>>> to any relevant degree.
>>
>> There was a user "nobody" on one of my old Linux installations. Cannot
>> find it on Debian here anymore though.
>
> Still here on My Mageia Linux
> $ grep nobody /etc/passwd
> nobody:x:65534:65534:Nobody:/:/bin/sh

$ grep nobody /etc/passwd
nobody:x:65534:65534:nobody:/nonexistent:/usr/sbin/nologin

IIRC this was the identity used with anonymous ftp logins, in the days
when trust still existed.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In comp.os.linux.misc, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> $ grep nobody /etc/passwd
> nobody:x:65534:65534:nobody:/nonexistent:/usr/sbin/nologin
>
> IIRC this was the identity used with anonymous ftp logins, in the days
> when trust still existed.

Nobody is what "root" maps to when using NFS without explicitly trusting
root. If you don't have any NFS packages installed, you might not have
the account.

First simple page I could find explaining:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nobody

That has citations to
https://www.kernel.org/doc/ols/2006/ols2006v2-pages-59-72.pdf

"Why NFS Sucks", see section 9 on security (page 60 as numbered, page 10
as seen in PDF) in particular.

https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/linag2/book/ch14.html

Search for "root_squash"

Elijah
------
squash are gourds not roots

On 11/11/22 1:39 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> $ grep nobody /etc/passwd
>> nobody:x:65534:65534:nobody:/nonexistent:/usr/sbin/nologin
>>
>> IIRC this was the identity used with anonymous ftp logins, in the days
>> when trust still existed.
>
> Nobody is what "root" maps to when using NFS without explicitly trusting
> root. If you don't have any NFS packages installed, you might not have
> the account.
>
> First simple page I could find explaining:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nobody
>
> That has citations to
> https://www.kernel.org/doc/ols/2006/ols2006v2-pages-59-72.pdf
>
> "Why NFS Sucks", see section 9 on security (page 60 as numbered, page 10
> as seen in PDF) in particular.
>
>
> https://www.oreilly.com/openbook/linag2/book/ch14.html
>
> Search for "root_squash"

NFS = No File Security :-)

OK ... NFS4 has security ...

Admittedly it DID have a major speed advantage over
SMB for awhile, but that advantage has become smaller
over the years. These days, for "large" files, SMB
and NFS are about the same. NFS still has an advantage
for "medium"/"small" files.

https://blog.ja-ke.tech/2019/08/27/nas-performance-sshfs-nfs-smb.html

https://ferhatakgun.com/network-share-performance-differences-between-nfs-smb/

Note that if you demand ENCRYPTED sharing (AES) then SMB
falls substantially behind.

For a "local network", like within a small/medium biz, where
you own and can touch all the boxes, then NFS4 can indeed be
a perfectly good - and fast - solution and there's likely no
real need for encryption. If you're linked to / sharing
something larger or something involving lots of money or
work on projects others might want to STEAL then the security
becomes extremely important.

Most modern systems are a mix of -ix and Winders boxes and
even Apple tablets/phones. SMB is very easy to set up to work
with Winders, NFS4 not quite so easy. Strictly speaking the
modern Apple system is based on Unix. The speed aspect MAY
be paramount - like if you have loads of users all sharing
GIS data files - which means NFS may offer a tangible advantage.

So, there's no "perfect" choice. Scale, speed and security
all play into it. If your users are mostly just grabbing
Word documents from an NAS then speed isn't a thing and
you may want to go SMB because it's just easier. Most NAS
boxes still offer SMB and NFS (Sinology does ... you just
check a box and you can have either or both).

Personal experience ... I've got one Linux box that does
selective backups of files on an NAS three times a day.
That's its main thing and never has to talk to Winders
or Apple. It's zillions of little files and a proportion
of larger ones. Switching to NFS between the two, in this
case, cut the time by about 20% Now was this a real
advantage ? The box doesn't DO very much between the big
backups, so the answer is "No". That 20% makes no diff.
If the box were busier then maybe yes ...