On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>
>>> Amen.
>>>
>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open the
>>> door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item including
>>> those which are not there any more with sell by dates  on a smart phone
>>
>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>    companies) ...
>>
>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>    can just use them direct ?
>>
>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>    and LOOK .......
>
> Open and look costs money.
>
Not very much.

Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
loind it takes to break even.

I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid 'why
nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the mpg

He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European car.
You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noada.net> wrote:
> On 11/16/22 1:13 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2022-11-16, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Linus DOES have a bit of a rep as a 'dictator'. On
>>> the whole, what annoys him seems quite reasonable,
>>> but his staff/contributors may not always see it
>>> that way. There MAY come a point ....
>>
>> Still, when it comes to dictators, Linus is pretty mild
>> compared to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg,
>> Elon Musk, etc.
>
>
> Linus is testy when it comes to TECHNICAL issues.
> The others are only interested in PROFIT issues.

Seen FarceBooks stock price lately? Zuck's Metaverse is a failure,
even FB employees don't use it.

On 2022-11-22 16:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>
>>>> Amen.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open the
>>>> door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item including
>>>> those which are not there any more with sell by dates  on a smart phone
>>>
>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>    companies) ...
>>>
>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>
>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>    and LOOK .......
>>
>> Open and look costs money.
>>
> Not very much.
>
> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
> loind it takes to break even.

Oh, no way I'm going to buy a smart fridge. They are not that smart, anyway.

> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid 'why
> nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the mpg
>
> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European car.
> You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 11/22/22 10:37 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>
>>>> Amen.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open the
>>>> door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item including
>>>> those which are not there any more with sell by dates  on a smart phone
>>>
>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>    companies) ...
>>>
>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>
>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>    and LOOK .......
>>
>> Open and look costs money.
>>
> Not very much.
>
> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
> loind it takes to break even.
>
> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid 'why
> nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the mpg
>
> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European car.
> You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'

Hey, I *like* that .... a sensible person who can
work a calculator :-)

As for the 'dumb' fridge costing money ... you were
walking past it scratching your ass anyway, so LOOK
INSIDE ....

Oh, and "smart" fridges still have to maintain X-mass
at Y-degrees, so they're no more efficient and opening
the door once in awhile amounts to about zilch extra
energy use. The electronics in the 'smart' fridge likely
use up MORE energy both internally AND in all the
support devices - up to and including your PC/phone -
that have to receive/interpret said data.

I'm gonna add to an oldie ... "Lies, Damned Lies,
Statistics and ENERGY-EFFICIENCY CLAIMS :-)

All yer little e-mobiles will NEVER pay off their
energy/carbon debts coming from all that's required
to make them run (and we're not even getting into
the slave labor thing). If a few percent have
e-mobiles then they can LEACH off the existing
energy infrastructure ... but if EVERYBODY gets
them then that entire infrastructure has to be
rebuilt to handle the load.

(Oh, horrible Truth, ASPHALT is a petroleum product.
What ya gonna build your roads out of if no more
oil ? Concrete ? Look up how much energy THAT
requires to make ....)

On 11/22/22 1:21 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
> 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noada.net> wrote:
>> On 11/16/22 1:13 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-16, 26C.Z968 <26C.Z968@noada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Linus DOES have a bit of a rep as a 'dictator'. On
>>>> the whole, what annoys him seems quite reasonable,
>>>> but his staff/contributors may not always see it
>>>> that way. There MAY come a point ....
>>>
>>> Still, when it comes to dictators, Linus is pretty mild
>>> compared to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg,
>>> Elon Musk, etc.
>>
>>
>> Linus is testy when it comes to TECHNICAL issues.
>> The others are only interested in PROFIT issues.
>
> Seen FarceBooks stock price lately? Zuck's Metaverse is a failure,
> even FB employees don't use it.

Yep, it crashed and burned - quick.

I hear Alexa has been losing money like mad too.

People love "high concept" - but the REALITY usually
bites that in the hindmost sections.

On 2022-11-23 06:28, 26C.Z969 wrote:
> On 11/22/22 10:37 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>>
>>>>> Amen.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open the
>>>>> door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item including
>>>>> those which are not there any more with sell by dates  on a smart
>>>>> phone
>>>>
>>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>>    companies) ...
>>>>
>>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>>
>>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>>    and LOOK .......
>>>
>>> Open and look costs money.
>>>
>> Not very much.
>>
>> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
>> loind it takes to break even.
>>
>> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid
>> 'why nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the mpg
>>
>> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European car.
>> You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'
>
>   Hey, I *like* that .... a sensible person who can
>   work a calculator  :-)
>
>   As for the 'dumb' fridge costing money ... you were
>   walking past it scratching your ass anyway, so LOOK
>   INSIDE ....
>
>   Oh, and "smart" fridges still have to maintain X-mass
>   at Y-degrees, so they're no more efficient and opening
>   the door once in awhile amounts to about zilch extra
>   energy use.

No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
takes some. Nil, no way.

> The electronics in the 'smart' fridge likely
>   use up MORE energy both internally AND in all the
>   support devices - up to and including your PC/phone -
>   that have to receive/interpret said data.
>
>   I'm gonna add to an oldie ... "Lies, Damned Lies,
>   Statistics and ENERGY-EFFICIENCY CLAIMS  :-)
>
>   All yer little e-mobiles will NEVER pay off their
>   energy/carbon debts coming from all that's required
>   to make them run (and we're not even getting into
>   the slave labor thing). If a few percent have
>   e-mobiles then they can LEACH off the existing
>   energy infrastructure ... but if EVERYBODY gets
>   them then that entire infrastructure has to be
>   rebuilt to handle the load.
>
>   (Oh, horrible Truth, ASPHALT is a petroleum product.
>   What ya gonna build your roads out of if no more
>   oil ? Concrete ? Look up how much energy THAT
>   requires to make ....)
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 11/23/22 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-23 06:28, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>> On 11/22/22 10:37 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open
>>>>>> the door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item
>>>>>> including those which are not there any more with sell by dates
>>>>>> on a smart phone
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>>>    companies) ...
>>>>>
>>>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>>>
>>>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>>>    and LOOK .......
>>>>
>>>> Open and look costs money.
>>>>
>>> Not very much.
>>>
>>> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
>>> loind it takes to break even.
>>>
>>> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid
>>> 'why nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the mpg
>>>
>>> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European
>>> car. You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'
>>
>>    Hey, I *like* that .... a sensible person who can
>>    work a calculator  :-)
>>
>>    As for the 'dumb' fridge costing money ... you were
>>    walking past it scratching your ass anyway, so LOOK
>>    INSIDE ....
>>
>>    Oh, and "smart" fridges still have to maintain X-mass
>>    at Y-degrees, so they're no more efficient and opening
>>    the door once in awhile amounts to about zilch extra
>>    energy use.
>
> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
> takes some. Nil, no way.

Umm ... I'm gonna dispute that. The thermal mass of
the box and contents significantly buffer any effects
from actually opening the thing for ten seconds.

Also, the "smart" aspects ... what's that, 25 watts
continuous ? Then, as mentioned, there's all the
downstream energy usage to process/present said data.

This is something that could benefit from a good
anal-retentive energy-profile analysis. Claims are
one thing, the hard figures something else entirely.

So let's see the hard figures - and NOT ones prepped
by the manufacturers. I think I'll be proven correct.

>> The electronics in the 'smart' fridge likely
>>    use up MORE energy both internally AND in all the
>>    support devices - up to and including your PC/phone -
>>    that have to receive/interpret said data.
>>
>>    I'm gonna add to an oldie ... "Lies, Damned Lies,
>>    Statistics and ENERGY-EFFICIENCY CLAIMS  :-)
>>
>>    All yer little e-mobiles will NEVER pay off their
>>    energy/carbon debts coming from all that's required
>>    to make them run (and we're not even getting into
>>    the slave labor thing). If a few percent have
>>    e-mobiles then they can LEACH off the existing
>>    energy infrastructure ... but if EVERYBODY gets
>>    them then that entire infrastructure has to be
>>    rebuilt to handle the load.
>>
>>    (Oh, horrible Truth, ASPHALT is a petroleum product.
>>    What ya gonna build your roads out of if no more
>>    oil ? Concrete ? Look up how much energy THAT
>>    requires to make ....)
>>
>

On 24/11/2022 04:55, 26C.Z969 wrote:
> On 11/23/22 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>>
>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
>> takes some. Nil, no way.
>
>   Umm ... I'm gonna dispute that. The thermal mass of
>   the box and contents significantly buffer any effects
>   from actually opening the thing for ten seconds.
>
>   Also, the "smart" aspects ... what's that, 25 watts
>   continuous ? Then, as mentioned, there's all the
>   downstream energy usage to process/present said data.
>
>   This is something that could benefit from a good
>   anal-retentive energy-profile analysis. Claims are
>   one thing, the hard figures something else entirely.
>
>   So let's see the hard figures - and NOT ones prepped
>   by the manufacturers. I think I'll be proven correct.
>
>
Again guys, this is ArtStudent™ Or ClimateAlarmist™ thinking.
Of course opening the door introduces *some* warm air that needs to be
cooled, so will use energy. That is the rationale behind chest freezers.

But as with ClimateChange™ that is not the issue. That is a qualitative
picture The real question is 'by how much' does energy (or global
temperature) increase? And what is the cost of that versus the cost in
cash end energy terms of putting a microprocessor in it? Or trying to
build a civilisation that runs off mediaeval windmills.

As opposed to building a few sea defences. And nuclear powered pumps
and air conditioners. and moving 500 miles further north to plant what
in what was permafrost.

Today the world is run by ArtStudents™ with warm fuzzy or deeply scary
*qualitative* (or at best boolean) emotional narratives. "Smart tech
good. Nuclear tech scary bad." "Green is good colour: Black is bad rude
colour" "Smart Fridge saves electricity in house bills (but uses more
energy to build"

In reality small processors can sleep in µA type current draws. So the
possibility exists for uber low processing power.

I wouldnt object to their presence on that account - they probably used
more energy to manufacture than they will use in their entire lifetime.

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On 2022-11-24 05:55, 26C.Z969 wrote:
> On 11/23/22 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-11-23 06:28, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>>> On 11/22/22 10:37 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open
>>>>>>> the door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item
>>>>>>> including those which are not there any more with sell by dates
>>>>>>> on a smart phone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>>>>    companies) ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>>>>    and LOOK .......
>>>>>
>>>>> Open and look costs money.
>>>>>
>>>> Not very much.
>>>>
>>>> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see how
>>>> loind it takes to break even.
>>>>
>>>> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid
>>>> 'why nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice the
>>>> mpg
>>>>
>>>> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European
>>>> car. You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'
>>>
>>>    Hey, I *like* that .... a sensible person who can
>>>    work a calculator  :-)
>>>
>>>    As for the 'dumb' fridge costing money ... you were
>>>    walking past it scratching your ass anyway, so LOOK
>>>    INSIDE ....
>>>
>>>    Oh, and "smart" fridges still have to maintain X-mass
>>>    at Y-degrees, so they're no more efficient and opening
>>>    the door once in awhile amounts to about zilch extra
>>>    energy use.
>>
>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
>> takes some. Nil, no way.
>
>   Umm ... I'm gonna dispute that. The thermal mass of
>   the box and contents significantly buffer any effects
>   from actually opening the thing for ten seconds.
>
>   Also, the "smart" aspects ... what's that, 25 watts
>   continuous ? Then, as mentioned, there's all the
>   downstream energy usage to process/present said data.
>
>   This is something that could benefit from a good
>   anal-retentive energy-profile analysis. Claims are
>   one thing, the hard figures something else entirely.

I said I am not going to buy an smart fridge.

But opening the door means some energy is wasted.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
......
>
> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
> takes some. Nil, no way.
>

If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?

But do the sums.... to an approximation,
temp of fridge say 15 K below room
air specific heat 1 kJ/kg/K
air density 1.2 kg/m3
size of fridge (mine) around 50x75x40 cm
(all very rough figures)

so energy to chill a full fridge load of air is
(.50*.75*.40) * 1.2 * 1 * 15 kJ, or around 3 kJ

By comparison, 1 kWh is 3,600 kJ. And don't forget, the full fridge has
much less air in it than when empty. So well under .001 units to chill
lost air down again. Perhaps double this for a similar-sized freezer.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> .....
>>
>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
>> takes some. Nil, no way.
>>
>
> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?

Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks in
and stays running for 10 minutes.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/11/2022 12:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> .....
>>>
>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it.
>>> It takes some. Nil, no way.
>>>
>>
>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?
>
> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks in
> and stays running for 10 minutes.
>
>
So one 6th of an hour at what - 200W? 50w? Certainly not much more. So
worst case 1/30th of a unit give or take.

How much would a smart fridge run at...over and above a dumb one?
or use to manufacture?

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 2022-11-24 13:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 12:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> .....
>>>>
>>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it.
>>>> It takes some. Nil, no way.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?
>>
>> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks in
>> and stays running for 10 minutes.
>>
>>
> So one 6th of an hour at what - 200W? 50w? Certainly not much more. So
> worst case 1/30th of a unit give or take.

But that's not the point. The point is, it is not zero as claimed.

>
> How much would a smart fridge run at...over and above a dumb one?
> or use to manufacture?

I repeat, I'm not going to buy any smart fridge.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/11/2022 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 13:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 24/11/2022 12:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> .....
>>>>>
>>>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it.
>>>>> It takes some. Nil, no way.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?
>>>
>>> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks
>>> in and stays running for 10 minutes.
>>>
>>>
>> So one 6th of an hour at what - 200W? 50w? Certainly not much more. So
>> worst case 1/30th of a unit give or take.
>
> But that's not the point. The point is, it is not zero as claimed.

I don't think he ever said that.
>
>>
>> How much would a smart fridge run at...over and above a dumb one?
>> or use to manufacture?
>
> I repeat, I'm not going to buy any smart fridge.
>

No, but you are becoming trapped in qualitative or at most 'boolean '
thinking - i.e. 'zero energy' or 'energy' rather than 'energy so
insignificant its not worth raising a fuss about'

Asa I said, this is unusual in technical people, but de rigueur for
'ArtStudents™ and of course the political Left to whom mathematics and
the notion of quantity is dull, boring and to be ignored and left to
'techies' 'nerds' and 'swots' :-)

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 07:26:11 -0500, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
>>> takes some. Nil, no way.

>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?

> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks in
> and stays running for 10 minutes.

The outflow of cooler air when the door is opened depends a lot on how full
the refrigerator is.

Mine would normally be half empty as I don't need that much space. To reduce
the outflow of cold air when I open the door I fill most of the empty space
with closed containers full of water.

It cuts down on the likelihood of the compressor turning on and reduces the
time it runs when it does come on.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 2022-11-24 15:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 13:36, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-11-24 13:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 24/11/2022 12:26, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>>>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured
>>>>>> it. It takes some. Nil, no way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?
>>>>
>>>> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks
>>>> in and stays running for 10 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So one 6th of an hour at what - 200W? 50w? Certainly not much more.
>>> So worst case 1/30th of a unit give or take.
>>
>> But that's not the point. The point is, it is not zero as claimed.
>
> I don't think he ever said that.

By now, I don't remember who and what exactly.

>>
>>>
>>> How much would a smart fridge run at...over and above a dumb one?
>>> or use to manufacture?
>>
>> I repeat, I'm not going to buy any smart fridge.
>>
>
> No, but you are becoming trapped in qualitative or at most 'boolean '
> thinking - i.e. 'zero energy' or 'energy' rather than 'energy so
> insignificant its not worth raising a fuss about'

Well, my parents would get in a fit if I opened the fridge and looked
for a moment doing nothing (they lived a war and hunger). I can't help
it, it is ingrained in me. Same as I can not throw food to the garbage.

I summer, just opening the door now and then means the motor runs non
stop till the night, when nobody touches the thing.

> Asa I said, this is unusual in technical people, but de rigueur for
> 'ArtStudents™ and of course the political Left to whom mathematics and
> the notion of quantity is dull, boring and to be ignored and left to
> 'techies' 'nerds' and 'swots' :-)
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/11/2022 18:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> I summer, just opening the door now and then means the motor runs non
> stop till the night, when nobody touches the thing.
>

Then I suspect you have lost refrigerant, and need a new fridge.

Mine does that if I dont close it, properly because the magnetic seal
after 20 years barely works

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

On 2022-11-24 20:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 18:25, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> I summer, just opening the door now and then means the motor runs non
>> stop till the night, when nobody touches the thing.
>>
>
> Then I suspect you have lost refrigerant, and need a new fridge.

No, just a non good enough fridge, and extreme weather.

>
> Mine does that if I dont close it, properly because the magnetic seal
> after 20 years barely works
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 11/24/22 6:46 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 05:55, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>> On 11/23/22 6:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-23 06:28, 26C.Z969 wrote:
>>>> On 11/22/22 10:37 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 22/11/2022 11:31, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-11-22 03:59, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/19/22 5:58 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/11/2022 04:28, 26C.Z968 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "ifconfig" alone gives you a list
>>>>>>>>>    of your devices and all the relevant numbers, no
>>>>>>>>>    bullshit. 95% of the time that's all I ever need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Amen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I want to know if I have any milk left in the fridge, I open
>>>>>>>> the door and look. I don't need an app that lists every item
>>>>>>>> including those which are not there any more with sell by dates
>>>>>>>> on a smart phone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Well, they have "smart fridges" that will spy
>>>>>>>    on everything you have in there and report it
>>>>>>>    to you (and probably a bunch of other people,
>>>>>>>    including the govt and all the health insurance
>>>>>>>    companies) ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    But yea ... simpler IS usually "better". The older
>>>>>>>    -ix utilities tell you exactly what you almost
>>>>>>>    always NEED to know without any BS or mile-long
>>>>>>>    list of params. You can really shorten yer pgms
>>>>>>>    too by running them and parsing the straightforward
>>>>>>>    data they return. Why rewrite sysutils when you
>>>>>>>    can just use them direct ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    And how much beer is in the fridge ? OPEN it
>>>>>>>    and LOOK .......
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Open and look costs money.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not very much.
>>>>>
>>>>> Deduct it from the extra capital cost of a smart fridge, and see
>>>>> how loind it takes to break even.
>>>>>
>>>>> I met a guy owne. 5.7 liter 8 US car. Did 15 to the gallon. I sdaid
>>>>> 'why nmot buuy a car with te same power, but European , at twice
>>>>> the mpg
>>>>>
>>>>> He said 'it only cost me 5 grand. That's 8 less than the European
>>>>> car. You can buy a lot of petrol for £8000'
>>>>
>>>>    Hey, I *like* that .... a sensible person who can
>>>>    work a calculator  :-)
>>>>
>>>>    As for the 'dumb' fridge costing money ... you were
>>>>    walking past it scratching your ass anyway, so LOOK
>>>>    INSIDE ....
>>>>
>>>>    Oh, and "smart" fridges still have to maintain X-mass
>>>>    at Y-degrees, so they're no more efficient and opening
>>>>    the door once in awhile amounts to about zilch extra
>>>>    energy use.
>>>
>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it.
>>> It takes some. Nil, no way.
>>
>>    Umm ... I'm gonna dispute that. The thermal mass of
>>    the box and contents significantly buffer any effects
>>    from actually opening the thing for ten seconds.
>>
>>    Also, the "smart" aspects ... what's that, 25 watts
>>    continuous ? Then, as mentioned, there's all the
>>    downstream energy usage to process/present said data.
>>
>>    This is something that could benefit from a good
>>    anal-retentive energy-profile analysis. Claims are
>>    one thing, the hard figures something else entirely.
>
> I said I am not going to buy an smart fridge.
>
> But opening the door means some energy is wasted.

"Some" ... but really not much. Thermal mass buffers
the effect quite well.

Mr. Natural IS correct that, at least in theory,
you can set environmental monitors to use micro-
amp power 99.9% of the time. Even the humble
Arduino can be used that way - I've used them
for solar-powered dataloggers before (gotta
bypass the voltage regulator though and power
any I2C from a switched pin). BTW- use the
Seeed LiPo-Rider Pro chargers/supply units over
the competitors, THEY maintain a steady output
voltage even if yer solar cells get exposed
to a supernova.

However the big power issue happens in SENDING the
data ... and IOT likes to send Wi-Fi and/or BT.
Then the downstream processing/storage/presentation
has to be taken into account and that's LOTS of
power being blown. The final equation is that "smart
appliances" use more energy than they save. The
"green-ness" is an illusion for fun, profit and
politics.

If you're REALLY concerned, they DO make "chest"
freezers AND refrigerators. They hold on to the
cold air better, though they're less user-friendly
on the whole so you might have to hold them open
for LONGER :-)

An amazing amount of energy gets used simply
heating or cooling things slightly. Alas the
laws of thermodynamics do NOT favor recovering
such low-grade waste heat.

Refrigerators CAN be more efficient - but you
have to dump the scroll compressors in favor
of the piston type - but then those are much
more energy-intensive to build ...... sorry,
no panaceas ........

I can go on long spiels about this stuff and
I count energy usage all up and down the line.
Please don't encourage me :-)

On 11/24/22 1:06 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 07:26:11 -0500, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-11-24 13:16, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 23/11/2022 11:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> No, this is not true. Opening the door amounts a significant extra
>>>> energy use. How much, I do not know. Maybe someone has measured it. It
>>>> takes some. Nil, no way.
>
>>> If you don't know the answer, how can you assert anything about it?
>
>> Because when I open the door of the fridge, usually the motor kicks in
>> and stays running for 10 minutes.
>
> The outflow of cooler air when the door is opened depends a lot on how full
> the refrigerator is.
>
> Mine would normally be half empty as I don't need that much space. To
> reduce
> the outflow of cold air when I open the door I fill most of the empty space
> with closed containers full of water.

Very smart - less circulation and a lot more
thermal mass.

And DO fill the empty spaces in yer freezer unit
with milk jugs or something full of frozen water.
(This MIGHT confuse some deep-freezers with an
auto-defrost cycle though)

>
> It cuts down on the likelihood of the compressor turning on and reduces the
> time it runs when it does come on.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins

Energy-efficiency has to be considered from top to
bottom. You CAN make a hyper-efficient refrig, but
it involves lots more energy usage for materials
and construction. "Smart" appliances also blow a
lot of energy downstream in terms of data transmission
and storage and presentation. Focusing on a single
device does NOT give the whole picture.