On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 5:00:04 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:

> As Heinlein used to say to those who argued that war never changed
> anything "go ask the city fathers of Carthage"

The idea of land rights by historical precedent is absurdly ridiculous only by thinking about it.

It's not a secret that humanity comes from Africa, and since it came out of Africa, ethnic groups have been anything but fuzzy. Some insisted on concrete borders for their territory, but those were always ephemeral, because either they expanded beyond them or other people did. No particular lot of land has remained tied to a particular people more than temporarily. Entire groups of people came and went. There are no more Lydians, Scythians, Babylonians, Kassites, Sumerians, Canaanites, Medians, Mycenaeans, or even Romans outside the Eternal City.

The group of people known as Jews is also fuzzy. What's a Jew? Someone who subscribes to the Jewish religion, a Semite from the Middle East, or someone born in Israel? The fact that one can become or stop being Jewish doesn't help either

Nobody likes an alien clan in their midst. Whether it's the KKK or a bunch of foreigners who refuse to integrate into the host society, and there is a price to pay for the clan. Throughout history when a natural disaster occurred the nearest clan was blamed for it, followed by a purge usually.

Today, we do the same with the clan of immigrants and by nationality or race. Northern Europeans disdain Mediterranean people, especially if they form a clan in their cities, which they invariably do. The Jewish people are not alone in that, although sometimes it would appear this way, because they complaint the loudest, and with good reason. Few ethnic groups can count a ghastly Holocaust in their history, as the Jews do.

The only land rights that really exist is that of national sovereignty, with borders determined by war and conquest BEFORE World War II. Because AFTER World War II, the world came to its senses and outlawed annexation of new territories by CONQUEST, which is something that has profoundly changed the world for the better.

Israel missed that meeting apparently. They selectively accept the authority of the United Nations when it comes to the edict that partitioned Palestine in their favor, but not when it comes to respecting other United Nations edicts, like the one of no more annexing territory by conquest.

Perfidious people that they are those Zionists, they use their 'law' to pursue conquest now. Some law or other is made that will allow them to evict Palestinians from their long time dwellings and confiscate that land or property for the Zionists. So their land robbing and crimes can be passed as maintaining law and order.

The morale is that if you steal somebody else's house to make a home, you will have little piece in that home, even if Uncle Sam approves.
Because historical precedent has nothing to do with it, but having people uprooted from their habitual place of residence kept for generations has everything to do with it. They just don't take that well.

Fuck Jehova and his Zionists murderers.

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 8:21:07 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:

>
> I respect the Jews and Israel for their intelligence and loyalty to their ethnic
> group but [...]
>

Their loyalty to their ethnic group is clearly the root of the problem.

Just like nationalism and political parties, excessive adherence to the human sub-group you belong to by birth or other circumstance makes little sense and it's ignorantly shortsighted. Morally and practically, there is a bigger and much more important group; we share the same planet and we are the same species, that should engender the most solidarity among people, not a small subset of land or smaller differences in the species.

Patriotism should be a mild form of favoritism for people of your nationality: MILD, except in case of war, which is a completely different deal.

What's so great about being Israeli as opposed to Egyptian? Or French, or what have you? There are great people and awful people in all large groups, so no particular nationality seems to matter as far as character. There are terrible Americans and beautiful Filipinos, disgusting Democrats and sterling Republicans. No group seems to really make much difference in the quality of the individual.

So why the disdain of fellow Semites in Israel, just because they are not of the Semitic sub-group called Jews? It's incomprehensible.

It's solely because of the 'loyalty to their ethnic group ' you respect them for.

It's not worthy of respect, it continually leads to the misery of millions of other human beings, other Semites, their long time neighbors.

The cement of this insidious loyalty is of course, religion. Jerusalem is the hub of three of this pernicious things. The solution is about ten megatons.

On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:46:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Jason wrote:
> On Mon, 10 May 2021 18:14:30 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 10 May 2021 15:59:39 +1000, Peter Jason wrote:
> >
> >> Brace yourself for another blast of sympathy-inducing Holocaust
> >> movies.
> >
> >
> >Jews can make more sympathy-inducing movies themes, then the Holocaust.
> Yes, Après moi le déluge.
>
> Ultimately the problem is of non-integrating minorities exacerbated by
> religion education in schools. Religion is a damnable thing,
> guaranteed to define and maintain borders and non-integration between
> groups, tribes, clans, nations etc, and has always been a branch of
> politics.
> Can morality & ethics exit outside of religion? Surely.

They can exit all right.

How did Homo Sapiens endure before religion as we know it came to be?

Ethics and morality are nothing more than the refinement of natural human solidarity.
Human solidarity has existed since before we left the trees and stood up. We would not be here without it.

The argument that human life without one of the modern gods and religions is amoral and therefore doomed, is demonstrably false.

Belief in a god, in fact, seems to make people LESS moral and with less solidarity for other people.

Super religious Israel had crafted a pitiful nation that is the cause of great human suffering.

It is a commonly accepted falsehood that Israel is a “Jewish and democratic” state. In fact, it is neither: It is a binational, inherently undemocratic entity governed through an apartheid regime. The fragmentation of Palestinians may serve to obfuscate the truth, but how can a reality of demographic parity — some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Palestinians — be considered only “Jewish”? And when most of those Palestinians are kept disenfranchised, how can it be considered “democratic”?

Another fact that tends to be invisible: Palestinian homes are demolished because they are built without permits — in a system designed to deny Palestinians the ability to get building permits..

Most Jewish Israelis spend their time pretending that Gaza and its 2 million Palestinians have fallen off the face of the Earth. The besieged civilian population, the polluted water, the denial of exit permits even for essential medical care — the endless ways in which Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are humiliated by Israel day in and day out — all are largely invisible to the Jewish half of the population living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Invisible, until once every few years the sirens and the rockets serve as a terrible awakening.

Denial of human rights to Palestinians and Israel's apartheid regime are unsustainable.

U.S. foreign policy has for decades been enabling, underwriting and shielding this regime from meaningful consequences. Not only through direct aid to Israel, but also through repeated U.S. vetoes at the United Nations Security Council and the propagation of the seemingly endless “peace process” illusion -- instead of prioritizing the protection and realization of the human rights that are violated every single day. Israeli impunity comes with a large “Made in the USA” label, for Washington is where it is manufactured..

It's a despicable state of affairs.

> te...@tiglath.net
>
> Super religious Israel

That's not really accurate, as most Jews (both in and outside of Israel)
are fair weather religionists or straight-up atheists. Israel is based on
Jewish ethnicity, not religion (as further evidenced by them doing
everything they could to keep the schvartze African Jews out…)

> It's a despicable state of affairs.

That can only realistically be resolved by population transfer and that means
shipping the Palestinians out to neighboring Arab nations, as the Jews have
nukes and ain't going nowhere.

It work wonderfully (albeit, brutally) after WWII, when the Soviets rounded
up the Germans in Central/Eastern Europe and shipped them back to Germany,
creating stable, ethnically and religiously homogenous states (and to a lesser
extent, in post-WWII India).

Because multiculturalism has been a disaster everywhere it's been attempted,
as human nature is such that people simply prefer to be among their "own kind"
and forcing different groups to live together only leads to inevitable conflict.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 20:11:11 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

>It is a commonly accepted falsehood that Israel is a =E2=80=9CJewish and de=
>mocratic=E2=80=9D state. In fact, it is neither: It is a binational, inhere=
>ntly undemocratic entity governed through an apartheid regime. The fragment=
>ation of Palestinians may serve to obfuscate the truth, but how can a reali=
>ty of demographic parity =E2=80=94 some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Pale=
>stinians =E2=80=94 be considered only =E2=80=9CJewish=E2=80=9D? And when mo=
>st of those Palestinians are kept disenfranchised, how can it be considered=
> =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D?

Either Israel has during the night annexed the Palestinian authority
or your math is deficient. Israel currently has a population of
roughly 9 million, the PA roughly 4.7 million. Now the Arab population
of Israel is about 1.9 million so if you combine the two your
statistics are more or less on - but that's as logical as saying
Canada would have a population of 400 million if it annexed the United
States.

In other words mathematically true but in the REAL world isn't going
to happen no way no where.

As for Israel's Arab minority they do vote in the Knesset and are
represented there. Admittedly as a permanent minority but to refer to
the status quo as 'disenfranchised' is dishonest.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 20:11:11 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:46:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Jason wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 18:14:30 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 10 May 2021 15:59:39 +1000, Peter Jason wrote:
>> >
>> >> Brace yourself for another blast of sympathy-inducing Holocaust
>> >> movies.
>> >
>> >
>> >Jews can make more sympathy-inducing movies themes, then the Holocaust.
>> Yes, Après moi le déluge.
>>
>> Ultimately the problem is of non-integrating minorities exacerbated by
>> religion education in schools. Religion is a damnable thing,
>> guaranteed to define and maintain borders and non-integration between
>> groups, tribes, clans, nations etc, and has always been a branch of
>> politics.
>> Can morality & ethics exit outside of religion? Surely.
>
>They can exit all right.
>
>How did Homo Sapiens endure before religion as we know it came to be?

The problem began with the concept of a "jealous god", that is
rendering all other gods false. In antiquity many gods coexisted
(like 'saints' today) but then, probably under Amenophis IV
(Akhenaten) a one solar god was invented that excluded all others.
It is possible Akhenaten founded the Jewish concept of the jealous god
and was overthrown for his trouble. Of course his adherents were
tossed out of Egypt to eventually conquer the Levant.
There's a book about all this.

It's all Akhenaten's fault, and of course he was barking mad, like all
religious founders.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:21:00 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 15 May 2021 20:11:11 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>
> wrote:
>
> >It is a commonly accepted falsehood that Israel is a =E2=80=9CJewish and de=
> >mocratic=E2=80=9D state. In fact, it is neither: It is a binational, inhere=
> >ntly undemocratic entity governed through an apartheid regime. The fragment=
> >ation of Palestinians may serve to obfuscate the truth, but how can a reali=
> >ty of demographic parity =E2=80=94 some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Pale=
> >stinians =E2=80=94 be considered only =E2=80=9CJewish=E2=80=9D? And when mo=
> >st of those Palestinians are kept disenfranchised, how can it be considered=
> > =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D?
>
> Either Israel has during the night annexed the Palestinian authority
> or your math is deficient.

Ot maybe your reading is deficient?

Don't you know that almost 14 million people LIVE UNDER ISRAELI RULE?

That is seven million Arabs and seven million Jews, roughly.

And of those 14 million only about 8.5 million get to vote? Every Jew has a right to vote, even those living in the West Bank, but not every Palestinian. The population of Israel proper also includes more than 330,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem who do not have Israeli citizenship and thus do not have the right to vote in national elections.

I wrote:

[(Gaza is] invisible to the Jewish half of the population living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea."

Israel's regime holds sway over the occupied territories, and Gaza, does it not? Why should not their populations be counted as sufferers subjected to Israel's apartheid regime?

That includes the West Bank, under Israeli occupation, and Gaza. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings.

Gaza has two million, West Bank tree million and Israel proper, two million, total seven million Arabs roughly and HALF the population between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean, the other half seven million Jews.

> As for Israel's Arab minority they do vote in the Knesset and are
> represented there. Admittedly as a permanent minority but to refer to
> the status quo as 'disenfranchised' is dishonest.

Tell me again how the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not disenfranchised, it will be a much shorter account than if I tell you how they are.

Or you mean only Arab Israeli citizens? Well, ditto. Do you think that an Arab Israeli citizen has the same rights as a Jewish one?

Perhaps you need some time to inform yourself and correct your views?

While Palestinian citizens of Israel can vote and run for political office, they still face discrimination and exclusion..

Here is an online database comprising a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel.

https://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:39:48 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
> > te...@tiglath.net
> >
> > Super religious Israel
>
> That's not really accurate, as most Jews (both in and outside of Israel)
> are fair weather religionists or straight-up atheists.

"A Gallup survey in 2015 determined that 65 percent of Israelis say they are either "not religious" or "convinced atheists", while 30 percent say they are "religious". Israel is in the middle of the international religiosity scale, between Thailand, the world's most religious country, and China, the least religious"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

You seem to be right. I stand corrected. My several visits to Israel must have form the wrong impression as I encountered many Orthodox Jews, especially in my place of work, even more than in Brooklyn. I should have taken a poll.

> Israel is based on
> Jewish ethnicity, not religion (as further evidenced by them doing
> everything they could to keep the schvartze African Jews out…)

But can't you convert to Judaism? I know people who did. Which is based purely on religion. What happens then; are you a proper Jew and are accepted in Israel as much as an ethnic Jew?

> > It's a despicable state of affairs.

> That can only realistically be resolved by population transfer and that means
> shipping the Palestinians out to neighboring Arab nations, as the Jews have
> nukes and ain't going nowhere.

I don't think so. The U.S has nukes and lost the war in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
Nukes are going to be useless to combat the forces that will eventually defeat Israel,
Either demographic change or a rest of the world where a much diminished US, has lost it's veto power.

>
> It work wonderfully (albeit, brutally) after WWII, when the Soviets rounded
> up the Germans in Central/Eastern Europe and shipped them back to Germany,
> creating stable, ethnically and religiously homogenous states (and to a lesser
> extent, in post-WWII India).

Well, war changes things, sure, but Israel ability to behave like the Red Army is severely limited.

>
> Because multiculturalism has been a disaster everywhere it's been attempted,

I guess you have not heard of a place called Indonesia.

Or a most diverse place called the United States, where diversity works fine for the majority of people, even if the 30% racist element in our society doesn't think so.
I just had a wonderful lunch with Korean friends in a Mexican restaurant and it was certainly no disaster, and we even had a waiter from Nepal.

> as human nature is such that people simply prefer to be among their "own kind"

Speak for yourself.

> and forcing different groups to live together only leads to inevitable conflict.

If that was true, life in the US would be unbearable, and it's not unbearable. We certainly have racial problems but they are caused by a minority of racist people, who have not realized yet that the primal xenophobia that used to be a life-saving asset in our prehistory, is a beastly burden in modern civilized society,, where individuals are expected to have seen enough of the world and the people who live in it, to have acquired the philosophical sophistication and the moral enlightenment to see that 'their own kind' should refer first and foremost to fellow humans.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:07:17 AM UTC+1, te...@tiglath.net wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:39:48 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
> > > te...@tiglath.net
> > >
> > > Super religious Israel
> >
> > That's not really accurate, as most Jews (both in and outside of Israel)
> > are fair weather religionists or straight-up atheists.
> "A Gallup survey in 2015 determined that 65 percent of Israelis say they are either "not religious" or "convinced atheists", while 30 percent say they are "religious". Israel is in the middle of the international religiosity scale, between Thailand, the world's most religious country, and China, the least religious"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel
>
> You seem to be right. I stand corrected. My several visits to Israel must have form the wrong impression as I encountered many Orthodox Jews, especially in my place of work, even more than in Brooklyn. I should have taken a poll.
> > Israel is based on
> > Jewish ethnicity, not religion (as further evidenced by them doing
> > everything they could to keep the schvartze African Jews out…)
> But can't you convert to Judaism? I know people who did. Which is based purely on religion. What happens then; are you a proper Jew and are accepted in Israel as much as an ethnic Jew?
> > > It's a despicable state of affairs.
>
> > That can only realistically be resolved by population transfer and that means
> > shipping the Palestinians out to neighboring Arab nations, as the Jews have
> > nukes and ain't going nowhere.
> I don't think so. The U.S has nukes and lost the war in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
> Nukes are going to be useless to combat the forces that will eventually defeat Israel,
> Either demographic change or a rest of the world where a much diminished US, has lost it's veto power.
> >
> > It work wonderfully (albeit, brutally) after WWII, when the Soviets rounded
> > up the Germans in Central/Eastern Europe and shipped them back to Germany,
> > creating stable, ethnically and religiously homogenous states (and to a lesser
> > extent, in post-WWII India).
> Well, war changes things, sure, but Israel ability to behave like the Red Army is severely limited.
> >
> > Because multiculturalism has been a disaster everywhere it's been attempted,
> I guess you have not heard of a place called Indonesia.
>
> Or a most diverse place called the United States, where diversity works fine for the majority of people, even if the 30% racist element in our society doesn't think so.
> I just had a wonderful lunch with Korean friends in a Mexican restaurant and it was certainly no disaster, and we even had a waiter from Nepal.
> > as human nature is such that people simply prefer to be among their "own kind"
> Speak for yourself.
> > and forcing different groups to live together only leads to inevitable conflict.
> If that was true, life in the US would be unbearable, and it's not unbearable. We certainly have racial problems but they are caused by a minority of racist people, who have not realized yet that the primal xenophobia that used to be a life-saving asset in our prehistory, is a beastly burden in modern civilized society,, where individuals are expected to have seen enough of the world and the people who live in it, to have acquired the philosophical sophistication and the moral enlightenment to see that 'their own kind' should refer first and foremost to fellow humans.

The trouble is that those with philosophical sophistication and moral enlightenment remain a tiny minority.

On Sun, 16 May 2021 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:21:00 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 20:11:11 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >It is a commonly accepted falsehood that Israel is a =E2=80=9CJewish and de=
>> >mocratic=E2=80=9D state. In fact, it is neither: It is a binational, inhere=
>> >ntly undemocratic entity governed through an apartheid regime. The fragment=
>> >ation of Palestinians may serve to obfuscate the truth, but how can a reali=
>> >ty of demographic parity =E2=80=94 some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Pale=
>> >stinians =E2=80=94 be considered only =E2=80=9CJewish=E2=80=9D? And when mo=
>> >st of those Palestinians are kept disenfranchised, how can it be considered=
>> > =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D?
>>
>> Either Israel has during the night annexed the Palestinian authority
>> or your math is deficient.
>
>Ot maybe your reading is deficient?

Your numbers only make sense if you assume the entire Palestinian
Authority is under Israeli rule.

I'd argue it's not as independent as say Britain or Canada but to say
the PA is ruled from Tel Aviv isn't so.

>Don't you know that almost 14 million people LIVE UNDER ISRAELI RULE?
>
>That is seven million Arabs and seven million Jews, roughly.

If you combine the two that's more or less so.

>And of those 14 million only about 8.5 million get to vote? Every Jew has a right to vote, even those living in the West Bank, but not every Palestinian. The population of Israel proper also includes more than 330,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem who do not have Israeli citizenship and thus do not have the right to vote in national elections.

So you are arguing people in the Palestinian authority should vote in
Israeli elections. Good luck convincing Tel Aviv of that.

>I wrote:
>
>[(Gaza is] invisible to the Jewish half of the population living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea."
>
>Israel's regime holds sway over the occupied territories, and Gaza, does it not? Why should not their populations be counted as sufferers subjected to Israel's apartheid regime?

Obviously we have different definitions of "holds sway"

>That includes the West Bank, under Israeli occupation, and Gaza. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings.
>
>Gaza has two million, West Bank tree million and Israel proper, two million, total seven million Arabs roughly and HALF the population between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean, the other half seven million Jews.
>
>> As for Israel's Arab minority they do vote in the Knesset and are
>> represented there. Admittedly as a permanent minority but to refer to
>> the status quo as 'disenfranchised' is dishonest.
>
>Tell me again how the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are not disenfranchised, it will be a much shorter account than if I tell you how they are.
>
>Or you mean only Arab Israeli citizens? Well, ditto. Do you think that an Arab Israeli citizen has the same rights as a Jewish one?

De jure you bet. De facto ......

>Perhaps you need some time to inform yourself and correct your views?
>
>While Palestinian citizens of Israel can vote and run for political office, they still face discrimination and exclusion..

I don't think there's any question who actually runs Israel not
withstanding the political rights held by Arab citizens of Israel.

The essential problem the PA has is that neither the Egyptians or
Jordanians wish to bring them under their protection (since neither
believes they could control violence from the Palestinian territories
and THAT would mean war with Israel) and without that they're de facto
at the mercy of Israel - which has certainly made it clear to all and
sundry that they will meet violence with overwhelming retaliation.

The reason is obvious - both Fatah and the Gazans want the protection
of their Arab neighbours but don't want to be run by them or to give
up violence.

I >don't< support West Bank annexation and do believe Bibi doesn't
want to restrain his settler yahoos but isn't about to give them carte
blanche either.

This is called a lose-lose-lose sitaution.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 5:41:43 AM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2021 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:21:00 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Sat, 15 May 2021 20:11:11 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >It is a commonly accepted falsehood that Israel is a =E2=80=9CJewish and de=
> >> >mocratic=E2=80=9D state. In fact, it is neither: It is a binational, inhere=
> >> >ntly undemocratic entity governed through an apartheid regime. The fragment=
> >> >ation of Palestinians may serve to obfuscate the truth, but how can a reali=
> >> >ty of demographic parity =E2=80=94 some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Pale=
> >> >stinians =E2=80=94 be considered only =E2=80=9CJewish=E2=80=9D? And when mo=
> >> >st of those Palestinians are kept disenfranchised, how can it be considered=
> >> > =E2=80=9Cdemocratic=E2=80=9D?
> >>
> >> Either Israel has during the night annexed the Palestinian authority
> >> or your math is deficient.
> >
> >Ot maybe your reading is deficient?
> Your numbers only make sense if you assume the entire Palestinian
> Authority is under Israeli rule.

My numbers make sense the moment the reader is a careful reader. I VERY CLEARLY WROTE:

'[...] how can a reality of demographic parity — some 7 million Jews, some 7 million Palestinians — be considered only “Jewish”?'

Indicating quite clearly that I was referring to the DEMOGRAPHIC PARITY OF the people who live between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean sea, that is the area of the conflict.

If you arbitrarily choose to understand that 'a demographic parity' means the state of Israel proper, that's none of my doing. And you are still wasting time arguing against something I didn't say.

> So you are arguing people in the Palestinian authority should vote in
> Israeli elections. Good luck convincing Tel Aviv of that.

I you rule a land and call your your rule democratic it's easy to argue that the people on that land should vote and enjoy what democracy means.

> >Israel's regime holds sway over the occupied territories, and Gaza, does it not? Why should not their populations be counted as sufferers subjected to Israel's apartheid regime?
> Obviously we have different definitions of "holds sway"

And obviously yours is the only correct one. Let's see...

"Hold sway."

"To have power, control or great influence over somebody/something."

That's the dictionary definition.

Do Israelis have power over the West Bank? You bet, it's UNDER ISRAELI MILITARY OCCUPATION. Do Israelis control the Gaza box? I explained that already. People in Gaza are trapped, the sea, the air the land crossings are not theirs. Unemployment is 70% among young Gazans. That's the kind of shithole Israel's power, control, and influence has created for two million people.
> >
> > Or you mean only Arab Israeli citizens? Well, ditto. Do you think that an Arab Israeli citizen has the same rights as a Jewish one?
> >

> De jure you bet.

Really?

What does 'de jure' mean? I means, based on the law.

I just gave you evidence of SIXTY FIVE laws that exclude or discriminate against Palestinian CITIZENS. Evidence you seem to have ignored.

>
> The essential problem the PA has is that neither the Egyptians or
> Jordanians wish to bring them under their protection

The old frayed argument of blaming other Arabs for the crimes of the Zionist, pleeze.

>
> This is called a lose-lose-lose sitaution.

The problem didn't start with the rockets Palestinians throw at Israel.

Israel's argument that they have the right to defend themselves is insidiously simplistic.

What about the rights of the Palestinians, whose human rights are trampled EVERYDAY?

Those non-citizen Palestinians in East Jerusalem didn't cross illegally from Mexico. It's like denying citizenship to native Americans.

I just want to live long enough to see Israel get some serious payback for its 73 year old run of crimes against humanity.

> te...@tiglath.net
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > Israel is based on Jewish ethnicity, not religion (as further
> > evidenced by them doing everything they could to keep the
> > schvartze African Jews out…)
>
> But can't you convert to Judaism? I know people who did. Which
> is based purely on religion. What happens then; are you a proper
> Jew and are accepted in Israel as much as an ethnic Jew?

Sure you can convert and I suppose that grants immigration rights
to Israel but you wouldn’t be a “real” Jew in their eyes, just like
the African Jews (who have been Jews for hundreds of years).

> > That can only realistically be resolved by population transfer
> > and that means shipping the Palestinians out to neighboring
> > Arab nations, as the Jews have nukes and ain't going nowhere.
>
> I don't think so. The U.S has nukes and lost the war in Vietnam
> and Afghanistan.

These were proxy wars, not direct attacks on the U.S. Israel’s
nukes are a “final option” if they get swarmed by Arabs and all
is lost.

> Nukes are going to be useless to combat the forces that will
> eventually defeat Israel, Either demographic change or a rest
> of the world where a much diminished US, has lost it's veto
> power.

Because of those nukes, Israel can ignore the rest of the world
(who in fact don’t really give a fuck about the Palestinians) and
as I said, a “Two State Solution” or any other plan that grants
the Palestinians equal rights, would mean the end of Israel.

Ain’t gonna happen.

> > It work wonderfully (albeit, brutally) after WWII, when the
> > Soviets rounded up the Germans in Central/Eastern Europe and
> > shipped them back to Germany, creating stable, ethnically and
> > religiously homogenous states (and to a lesser extent, in
> > post-WWII India).
>
> Well, war changes things, sure, but Israel ability to behave like
> the Red Army is severely limited.

The point still stands; forcing people who hate each other to live
together is a bad idea and never works out.

Ask India.

> > Because multiculturalism has been a disaster everywhere it's
> > been attempted,
>
> I guess you have not heard of a place called Indonesia.

Indonesia has had all kind pogroms and continues to forcibly try
to marginalize and/or convert non-Muslim Indonesians.

> Or a most diverse place called the United States

The U.S. has had racial/ethnic/cultural problems from the start
and last year’s “mostly peaceful protests” only shows that this
is STILL a huge problem.

> > as human nature is such that people simply prefer to be among
> > their "own kind"
>
> Speak for yourself.

You can’t ignore or legislate away bazillions of years of evolution
and hard-wired instinct.

> > and forcing different groups to live together only leads to
> > inevitable conflict.
>
> If that was true, life in the US would be unbearable, and it's not
> unbearable.

Where have you been? The U.S. is cluster fuck with ethnic groups
self-segregating and feuding all across the country, it’s only thru
highly modernized version of “bread and circuses” that we haven’t
fallen into a civil war, though the Left/Dems are doing everything
they can to try and make that happen…

https://ibb.co/W0qYs4z

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 10:41:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:

> > > as human nature is such that people simply prefer to be among
> > > their "own kind"
> >
> > Speak for yourself.
> You can’t ignore or legislate away bazillions of years of evolution
> and hard-wired instinct.

Yes you can. That is what civilization has been doing since the advent of agriculture.

For example, our primal instinct of to fuck everything that moves, but we have legislated that away, and rape is under control where civilization reigns.

Indians and Pakistanis are the SAME people, their difference is religious, which can be a terrible thing. Catholic and Protestants slaughtered each other for centuries, and they were all white. Jews and Palestinians are racially indistinguishable, they are both Semites with roots in the same land, the difference is again religious.

So when you say 'their own kind' it's sort of silly, affiliation to a religion doesn't change you kind, or should not. To say that it does is to display an affinity to divisiveness that is pernicious to any society.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 10:41:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
lost the war in Vietnam
> > and Afghanistan.
> These were proxy wars, not direct attacks on the U.S.

I'd say 9/11 was a pretty direct attack.

Israel’s
> nukes are a “final option” if they get swarmed by Arabs and all
> is lost.

They don't need them for that. It's been tried before and the U.S won't let it happen. In 73 Israel would have succumbed if not for Nixon's aerial bridge, which supplied enough arms to turn the tide. Arabs won't offer open battle again, so nukes are an unnecessary precaution, but one that wants Muslim nations get nukes too, which isn't a safe thing to happen.

>
> Ain’t gonna happen.

Not immediately, but this kind of evil just can't endure. It's becoming increasingly difficult for the US to avert its eyes from Zionist crimes.

Nobody cares about the Palestinians, maybe you are right. But that is not why people do or will do something about this problem.

The plight of the Palestinians can be exactly what a country or continent needs to make a political gesture.
> Indonesia has had all kind pogroms and continues to forcibly try
> to marginalize and/or convert non-Muslim Indonesians.

But that is not anywhere near the disaster you depict as the inevitable result of diversity. Visit Indonesia, which is the fourth largest country, and see for yourself. All countries have some problems with rival factions in their citizens, it's not abnormal, all have crime, but it means no disaster.

If you were to succeeded in deporting all brown and black people, and for a moment you thought that by killing diversity you put an end to human division, you'd soon be made a fool for it.

People will naturally gravitate towards opposite poles in a great variety of issues. and will hate the 'other kind' soon, because that is what our natural xenophobia does. A world of back-patting buddies where everyone agrees is kind of boring, opposition and competition are far more interesting.

The quality we are looking for in people is not one that eliminates the xenophobic instincts, a relic of our past we must put up with, but one where they don't become slaves to it.

> >
> > If that was true, life in the US would be unbearable, and it's not
> > unbearable.

> Where have you been?

I visited almost every state, and lived mostly in New York and Virginia. If life was unbearable here I would not live here. Unlike most Americans, I am here by conscious choice made as an adult.

Where have you been, I wonder.

The U.S. is cluster fuck with ethnic groups
> self-segregating and feuding all across the country, it’s only thru
> highly modernized version of “bread and circuses” that we haven’t
> fallen into a civil war, though the Left/Dems are doing everything
> they can to try and make that happen…

Why is it that I doubt they will fire the first shot?

You don't seem to understand the idea of this country yet. The US must be doing something right to be the top country in the world as far a the individual's potential standard of living. Of course, they don't give it to you but, equal effort goes unrewarded in many other countries in the world; there just isn't the market. Obviously, diversity is not hampering our economic development, we are top.

Taking in a multitude of different cultures has been the idea of America from the beginning. It didn't just happen during your life to annoy you. That's how the place works. Your insistence on changing it to the white paradise you desire is not understandable, because you simply can., which should tell you that you either cooperate with the inevitable or let it sink in that you may be living in the wrong country for you. The people are here, all of us. You didn't stop us. Diversity continues. My neighbors are from New Zealand, Korea, and Egypt, and I don't see what's not to like. We have great conversations. This place was and still is a sparsely populated land relatively, and we need more tax payers and happy citizens. I lived a long number of years in various lands, always going from a less to a more diverse one, and I consider it a plus in all senses. It's good to get out of the same old parochial life.

In cultures like ours there is a difference in experience, belief-systems, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, spatial relations, and much more. This makes it a complex country, and therefore an interesting country.

> te...@tiglath.net
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > You can’t ignore or legislate away bazillions of years of evolution
> > and hard-wired instinct.
>
> Yes you can. That is what civilization has been doing since the advent
> of agriculture.

Well no, you’re using force to suppress evolution but the instinct will
always be there and while I’ll admit this is a necessary thing if we’re
talking about murder and such, it is not when we’re forcing people to
live together because of the region of multiculturalism.

> Indians and Pakistanis are the SAME people, their difference is
> religious, which can be a terrible thing.

It’s still not “their own kind” and both have a right to live free of
the other imposing their beliefs and culture on them.

> > These were proxy wars, not direct attacks on the U.S.
>
> I'd say 9/11 was a pretty direct attack.

It’s a question of the severity of the attack; 9/11 didn’t justify nukes.

> > Israel’s nukes are a “final option” if they get swarmed by Arabs and
> > all is lost.
>
> They don't need them for that. It's been tried before and the U.S won't
> let it happen.

Ask the Poles how foreign guarantees of security worked out for them…

> > Ain’t gonna happen.
>
> Not immediately, but this kind of evil just can't endure.

There’s no timeline where the Jews take that deal without losing Israel
and they’re not going to do that.

> The plight of the Palestinians can be exactly what a country or continent
> needs to make a political gesture.

Jewish power and influence isn’t limited to the U.S. Meanwhile, not even
the Arabs give a shit about the Palestinians, beyond using them as a tool
for propaganda against the Jews.

> > Indonesia has had all kind pogroms and continues to forcibly try
> > to marginalize and/or convert non-Muslim Indonesians.
>
> But that is not anywhere near the disaster you depict as the inevitable
> result of diversity.

It is for those being marginalized and/or forcibly converted and that’s
what ALWAYS happens in a multi-cultural state; those in power (be they
the majority or a powerful minority) force their will on others.

Because that’s human nature, which you keep ignoring.

> > The U.S. is cluster fuck with ethnic groups self-segregating and feuding
> > all across the country, it’s only thru highly modernized version of “bread
> > and circuses” that we haven’t fallen into a civil war, though the Left/Dems
> > are doing everything they can to try and make that happen…
>
> You don't seem to understand the idea of this country yet. The US must be
> doing something right to be the top country in the world as far a the individual's
> potential standard of living

The U.S. was luckily in the right place at the right time, yet our empire
is still collapsing around our ears and the Left/Dem’s multicultural suicide
pact is only accelerating that process.

> te...@tiglath.net
>
> I lived a long number of years in various lands, always going from a less to a more diverse one,
> and I consider it a plus in all senses. It's good to get out of the same old parochial life.

https://news.yahoo.com/record-2-700-migrants-reach-193303165.html
May 17, 2021

Record 2,700 migrants reach Spain's Ceuta enclave in one day

At least 2,700 migrants, some 1,000 of them minors, reached Spain's North African enclave of Ceuta on Monday, Spanish officials said, a record in a single day.

A spokesman for the Spanish government delegation in Ceuta said the numbers arriving Monday were unprecedented, adding that the migrants had reached the enclave by swimming or walking at low tide from beaches in neighbouring Morocco.

None of the migrants have been hospitalised and "they are doing well", he added.

During the morning, the delegation put the number at 100 arrivals, saying they were mostly young men but also included children and some women who had used inflatable swimming rings and rubber dinghies.

Others were able to almost walk there when the tide went out, the spokesman told AFP, with the numbers climbing rapidly throughout the day. The influx appeared to have stopped by 1800 GMT, he said.

After being checked by the Red Cross, the migrants were taken to a migrant reception centre, with authorities set to meet to discuss how to handle the situation given the record arrivals.

During the last weekend of April, around 100 migrants swam to Ceuta in groups of 20 to 30. Most were deported back to Morocco.

Ceuta, together with Melilla -- Spain's other North African enclave -- have the European Union's only land borders with Africa, making them popular entry points for migrants seeking a better life in Europe.

Migrants try to reach the enclaves either by swimming along the coast or climbing the tall border fences that separate them from Morocco.

Figures published by Spain's interior ministry show that between January 1 and May 15, 475 migrants reached Ceuta by land or sea, more than double the 203 that arrived in the same period last year.

The wave of arrivals comes at a point of diplomatic tension between Madrid and Rabat after it emerged that Polisario Front leader Brahim Ghali arrived in northern Spain in mid-April and is being treated in hospital for Covid-19.

The Polisario Front has long fought for the independence of Western Sahara from Morocco, and analysts have warned the spat could threaten bilateral cooperation between Madrid and Rabat in the fight against illegal immigration.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 9:29:50 PM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
> > te...@tiglath.net
> >
> > I lived a long number of years in various lands, always going from a less to a more diverse one,
> > and I consider it a plus in all senses. It's good to get out of the same old parochial life.
> https://news.yahoo.com/record-2-700-migrants-reach-193303165.html
> May 17, 2021
>

General Franco's praetorian guard were Moroccan mounted guards. Spain has an intense relationship with the African state across the Straight of Gibraltar. Spain is full of Muslims, especially Moroccans and Egyptians. I used to discriminate against them in my racist days. They are simply poorer than other Spanish people because they came with nothing and adversity doesn't relent when racist people label them as criminals and lazy people. It's not true. A few are certainly criminals, mostly due to poverty, not national origin. I still don't like their culture, mostly because it's immerse in Islam and for the way they treat women. Those who are not and do not, I accept like any other good people.

You can't expect people to enjoy disrupting life changes of any kind, as the arrival of a large group of people to town, who are not bearing gifts. You don't need to be racist to hate that. That is no reason why the arrivals should be hated, when the problem is the incompetent throttling of the migration.

Aren't we lucky we are not among the poor bastards who sit at the top of Africa longing for passage across the Mediterranean, to attain some uncertain future in a new continent. It's pure chance that we are not... Let's be kind to them.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 12:37:09 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

>On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 9:29:50 PM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
>> > te...@tiglath.net
>> >
>> > I lived a long number of years in various lands, always going from a less to a more diverse one,
>> > and I consider it a plus in all senses. It's good to get out of the same old parochial life.
>> https://news.yahoo.com/record-2-700-migrants-reach-193303165.html
>> May 17, 2021
>>
>
>General Franco's praetorian guard were Moroccan mounted guards. Spain has an intense relationship with the African state across the Straight of Gibraltar. Spain is full of Muslims, especially Moroccans and Egyptians. I used to discriminate against them in my racist days. They are simply poorer than other Spanish people because they came with nothing and adversity doesn't relent when racist people label them as criminals and lazy people. It's not true. A few are certainly criminals, mostly due to poverty, not national origin. I still don't like their culture, mostly because it's immerse in Islam and for the way they treat women. Those who are not and do not, I accept like any other good people.
>
>You can't expect people to enjoy disrupting life changes of any kind, as the arrival of a large group of people to town, who are not bearing gifts. You don't need to be racist to hate that. That is no reason why the arrivals should be hated, when the problem is the incompetent throttling of the migration.
>
>Aren't we lucky we are not among the poor bastards who sit at the top of Africa longing for passage across the Mediterranean, to attain some uncertain future in a new continent. It's pure chance that we are not... Let's be kind to them.
>
>

Kindness is not enough. Africa has gone backwards since the end of
colonialism in the 1960s. It cries out for its reintroduction. When
colonialism ended tribalism and fundamentalist religion filled its
place. Face it! Why are poor bastards poor? Too much freedom and
rampant democracy generate chaos...and Africa is chaotic. Too many
people cause too many problems: pressure on resources, disease spread,
land grabbing etc. Face it! A one-child African policy is long
overdue. It worked in China.

> te...@tiglath.net
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > https://news.yahoo.com/record-2-700-migrants-reach-193303165.html
> > May 17, 2021
>
> Aren't we lucky we are not among the poor bastards who sit at the top of Africa
> longing for passage across the Mediterranean, to attain some uncertain future
> in a new continent. It's pure chance that we are not... Let's be kind to them.

We are lucky, but it’s not a kindness to them or us to flood our country with
bazillions of foreigners, who then transplant their culture here at the expense
of ours, eventually turning us into them.

Ask the American Indians.

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 8:36:53 PM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:

> We are lucky, but it’s not a kindness to them or us to flood our country with
> bazillions of foreigners, who then transplant their culture here at the expense
> of ours, eventually turning us into them.

That is not at all the processes I see. The vast majority of immigrants integrate with the host society, they become Americanized, so it's they who turn into us as best they can. Some things they can't do, change their accent, their skin color, but their customs meld with those around them, just like their food and sometimes their language. The Spanish spoken by Americans known as Hispanic, is replete with anglicisms.

That's the great beauty of this country that you reject and fail to enjoy.... what a waste. We all have an American interface, but behind it you find thousands of national heritages. This is real America despite anyone's opinion. Racist white people are too few and too late to change it and stop it. Again, cooperate with the inevitable to increase harmony in your soul...

>
> Ask the American Indians.

American Indians became Americanized. We all do. You claim it happens in the other direction, which is nuts. Americans don't soon become Nicaraguans after prolong contact with Nicaraguan folk in the U.S. it's ridiculous. Did it happened to you? From Wasp to what? Mexican? Venezuelan?
There is someone in Ed's head folks, and it's not him! Some terrible hombre is Ed now, and Ed is not cool with it in lucid moments...

Poor guy...

> te...@tiglath.net
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > Ask the American Indians.
>
> American Indians became Americanized. We all do.
> You claim it happens in the other direction, which
> is nuts.

https://ibb.co/3cjJsFk

As I’ve pointed out before, the assimilation of immigrants
can only happen when their numbers are strictly limited to
put them in a position where they have no choice but to
become assimilated.

When you throw open the borders and let anyone and everyone
into the country, the immigrants simply transplant their native
culture whole-cloth, along with all the problems from their native
lands.

Not only is this obviously bad for the host nation, it does nothing
to fix the problems in their native country, as that nation can dump
its excess population (most of whom are the dregs of their society)
onto the host nation to deal with.

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 9:13:34 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote.

....
> > When you throw open the borders [...]
....

That bit here spoils everything your wrote. Our borders aren't open, they have never been in my lifetime. The same border agents are there, doing the same shifts as when the previous president was in charge.

To blame someone for something that is not happening, is like saying the Trump won the 2020 election, not surprising, but deplorably wrong.

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 9:13:34 AM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:

> https://ibb.co/3cjJsFk
>
> As I’ve pointed out before, the assimilation of immigrants
> can only happen when their numbers are strictly limited to
> put them in a position where they have no choice but to
> become assimilated.
>

Unless they are slaves, people are free to walk away from the land they don't enjoy living in.

I agree that assimilation is a slow process and if you overload the process it will lead to problems, discontent, and suffering.

But shit happens, and sometimes conditions become dire for a lot of people at once, and you get flooded regardless. It's a problem to manage and the best solution lies between open borders and closed borders.

Zionists are about to become victims of their favorite trick - people labeling.

If you don't like them or don't condone their crimes they call you 'antisemitic.'

But a new reality has the world very seriously considering to glue on them the label of 'Child Killers.

They are working so hard for it...

> te...@tiglath.net
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > As I’ve pointed out before, the assimilation of immigrants
> > can only happen when their numbers are strictly limited to
> > put them in a position where they have no choice but to
> > become assimilated.
>
> Unless they are slaves, people are free to walk away from the
> land they don't enjoy living in.

But they are not free to walk into any land they choose and demand
a whole raft of welfare benefits, that their children automatically
be citizens, that the host nation change its language and culture
to suit them, etc.

> > When you throw open the borders
>
> Our borders aren't open, they have never been in my lifetime.

Please, our border with Mexico its laughably porous and if an
illegal hasn’t already been arrested and deported, they can just
stroll over a legal crossing point and stay in the U.S. forever.

Not to mention we have states like California that are actively
subverting our immigration laws and refusing to work with ICE,
giving illegals state drivers licenses.