* Anton Shepelev:

> Steve Hayes:
>
>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>
> 1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>
> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
> haunches...
>
> Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.

In my short research about German terms in this area, I read pretty much
the opposite: that you often use the canter at the beginning of a ride
or as a break to get the horse into a smooth, easy movement. Also that
it's a gait that can be continued for long periods. That seemed to fit
the analogy that someone gave, that it's like jogging as opposed to
full-out running for humans.

In part, that may just mean that there are much more artificial
movements that we subject them too, as in dressage.

I don't have first-hand experience, so I won't subscribe to either view
on canter just yet.

--
Some of the most horrific things ever done to humans
were done by the politest, best-dressed, most well-spoken
people from the very best homes and neighborhoods.
-- Jerry Springer

On 2022-03-17 10:55, Quinn C wrote:
> * Anton Shepelev:
>
>> Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>>
>> 1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>>
>> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
>> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
>> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
>> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
>> haunches...
>>
>> Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.
>
> In my short research about German terms in this area, I read pretty much
> the opposite: that you often use the canter at the beginning of a ride
> or as a break to get the horse into a smooth, easy movement. Also that
> it's a gait that can be continued for long periods. That seemed to fit
> the analogy that someone gave, that it's like jogging as opposed to
> full-out running for humans.

For long periods of riding, the best are the 'gaited' horses. They
essentially do a fast walk, equal or very close in speed to to a lope.

The only gaited horses I've ridden are 'Missouri Foxtrotters', and they
are VERY comfortable, with no deed to post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gaited_horse_breeds

> In part, that may just mean that there are much more artificial
> movements that we subject them too, as in dressage.
>
> I don't have first-hand experience, so I won't subscribe to either view
> on canter just yet.
>

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:55:01 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Anton Shepelev:
>
>> Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>>
>> 1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>>
>> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
>> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
>> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
>> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
>> haunches...
>>
>> Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.
>
>In my short research about German terms in this area, I read pretty much
>the opposite: that you often use the canter at the beginning of a ride
>or as a break to get the horse into a smooth, easy movement. Also that
>it's a gait that can be continued for long periods. That seemed to fit
>the analogy that someone gave, that it's like jogging as opposed to
>full-out running for humans.
>
>In part, that may just mean that there are much more artificial
>movements that we subject them too, as in dressage.
>
>I don't have first-hand experience, so I won't subscribe to either view
>on canter just yet.

In that case you canter oneously have an opinion on it.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:42:00 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Steve Hayes:
>
>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>
>1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>
> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
> haunches...
>
>Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.

That sounds like pure nonsense to me.

The human equivalent would be more like a long-dstance runner, where
the sprint is equivalent to a gallop. In all the horses I've known
it;s been quite relaxed.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 14/03/2022 13:30, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/03/22 23:03, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>>
>> Would it seem strange to read of a leopard cantering down a hill?
>>
>> I thought it was a gait that could be seen in many quadrupeds,
>> especially those with fairly long legs -- going quite fast, but not in
>> a great hurry.
>>
>> If you think it seems too strange, what other word would you use?
>
> Cantaloupe.
>

Can't elope, even if they are in love?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:44:09 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:42:00 +0300, Anton Shepelev
><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes:
>>
>>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>>
>>1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>>
>> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
>> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
>> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
>> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
>> haunches...
>>
>>Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.
>
>That sounds like pure nonsense to me.
>
>The human equivalent would be more like a long-dstance runner, where
>the sprint is equivalent to a gallop. In all the horses I've known
>it;s been quite relaxed.

You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never known a
horse.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

In message <h69h3hpvaof6j0uavkbt7nueifocld5jpa@4ax.com> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:44:09 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:42:00 +0300, Anton Shepelev
>><anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Hayes:
>>>
>>>> Can animals other than horses canter or lope?
>>>
>>>1913 Webser quotes one J.H. Walsh:
>>>
>>> The canter is a thoroughly artificial pace, at first ex-
>>> tremely tiring to the horse, and generally only to be
>>> produced in him by the restraint of a powerful bit, which
>>> compels him to throw a great part of his weight on his
>>> haunches...
>>>
>>>Man's cruelty toward his "lesser brothers" is unfathomable.
>>
>>That sounds like pure nonsense to me.
>>
>>The human equivalent would be more like a long-dstance runner, where
>>the sprint is equivalent to a gallop. In all the horses I've known
>>it;s been quite relaxed.

> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never known a
> horse.

I knew several horses when I rode. Each one had its own personality and
quirks. For very stupid animals they had more character than I expected.

I don't remember their names, however. I think the one no one else liked
riding might have been Butch. He was large and somewhat ornery, but as
long as you kept a firm hand he was fine.

--
Jungle Cruise: The Movie
(Apocalypse Now)

Lewis:

> I knew several horses when I rode. Each one had its own
> personality and quirks. For very stupid animals they had
> more character than I expected.

Horses, stupid? Tolstoy's "Strider" and Aitmatov's
"Farewell, Gulsary" portray them as very intelligent crea-
tures, and both the authors had intercourse with horses
throughout large part of their lives. Your experience dif-
fers? Perhaps you were on rather long terms with your hors-
es, only riding, and not really caring for them...

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

I wrote:

> Perhaps you were on rather long terms with

I noticed this, and in deafault of a suitable adjective (in
my ready memory), changed it to "not on familliar terms",
but forgot to re-run the updated message throgh Groff. What
adjective could be used in stead of "not familliar"?

--
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/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:44:09 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>The human equivalent would be more like a long-dstance runner, where
>>the sprint is equivalent to a gallop. In all the horses I've known
>>it;s been quite relaxed.

>You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never known a
>horse.

In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh wiggle.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:44:09 +0200, Steve Hayes
>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> The human equivalent would be more like a long-dstance runner,
>>> where the sprint is equivalent to a gallop. In all the horses
>>> I've known it;s been quite relaxed.
>
>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>> known a horse.
>
> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
> wiggle.

If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you probably
know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced to the horse.

(On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been introduced to.
It tried to throw me.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In article <20220322113719.e1d15568ad5a9b6d10833738@g{oogle}mail.com>,
anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com says...
>
> I wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you were on rather long terms with
>
> I noticed this, and in deafault of a suitable adjective (in
> my ready memory), changed it to "not on familliar terms",
> but forgot to re-run the updated message throgh Groff. What
> adjective could be used in stead of "not familliar"?

"Distant".

I hope nobody here has had intercourse with horses, btw.

Janet

In message <20220322113149.9d3b3345596e902a4f902854@g{oogle}mail.com> Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
> Lewis:

>> I knew several horses when I rode. Each one had its own
>> personality and quirks. For very stupid animals they had
>> more character than I expected.

> Horses, stupid? Tolstoy's "Strider" and Aitmatov's
> "Farewell, Gulsary" portray them as very intelligent crea-
> tures, and both the authors had intercourse with horses
> throughout large part of their lives. Your experience dif-
> fers? Perhaps you were on rather long terms with your hors-
> es, only riding, and not really caring for them...

Part of having horses around and riding them was a certain amount of
tending to them. Brushing down after riding, checking hooves and chekcing
they had appropriate food and water were all part of it. I was not by
any means a main caretaker, that was other students.

Compared to a smart animal, horses are quite dumb, yes. Compared to the animals
you would expect to find on a farm they are certainly smarter than the
chickens, but no where near as clever as pigs, dogs, cats, or foxes.

--
What would be the point of cyphering messages that very clever
enemies couldn't break? You'd end up not knowing what they
thought you thought they were thinking... --The Fifth Elephant

On 3/22/2022 4:37 AM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> I wrote:

>> Perhaps you were on rather long terms with

> I noticed this, and in deafault of a suitable adjective (in my ready
> memory), changed it to "not on familliar terms", but forgot to
> re-run the updated message throgh Groff. What adjective could be
> used in stead of "not familliar"?

You could say "on distant terms".

The clanger in that posting was "had intercourse", though. When not
otherwise distinguaished, the phrase tends to be intepreted as "had
sexual intercourse".

--
Really, Count Tolstoy! Droit de seigneur in this day and age?

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:49:25 -0000
Janet <nobody@hame.cock> wrote:

> In article <20220322113719.e1d15568ad5a9b6d10833738@g{oogle}mail.com>,
> anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com says...
> >
> > I wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps you were on rather long terms with
> >
> > I noticed this, and in deafault of a suitable adjective (in
> > my ready memory), changed it to "not on familliar terms",
> > but forgot to re-run the updated message throgh Groff. What
> > adjective could be used in stead of "not familliar"?
>
> "Distant".
>
> I hope nobody here has had intercourse with horses, btw.
>
Neigh.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:31:49 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

>Lewis:
>
>> I knew several horses when I rode. Each one had its own
>> personality and quirks. For very stupid animals they had
>> more character than I expected.
>
>Horses, stupid? Tolstoy's "Strider" and Aitmatov's
>"Farewell, Gulsary" portray them as very intelligent crea-
>tures, and both the authors had intercourse with horses
>throughout large part of their lives.

They did? I thought that was illegal in Russia.

> Your experience dif-
>fers? Perhaps you were on rather long terms with your hors-
>es, only riding, and not really caring for them...

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:50:01 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <20220322113149.9d3b3345596e902a4f902854@g{oogle}mail.com> Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis:
>
>>> I knew several horses when I rode. Each one had its own
>>> personality and quirks. For very stupid animals they had
>>> more character than I expected.
>
>> Horses, stupid? Tolstoy's "Strider" and Aitmatov's
>> "Farewell, Gulsary" portray them as very intelligent crea-
>> tures, and both the authors had intercourse with horses
>> throughout large part of their lives. Your experience dif-
>> fers? Perhaps you were on rather long terms with your hors-
>> es, only riding, and not really caring for them...
>
>Part of having horses around and riding them was a certain amount of
>tending to them. Brushing down after riding, checking hooves and chekcing
>they had appropriate food and water were all part of it. I was not by
>any means a main caretaker, that was other students.
>
>
>Compared to a smart animal, horses are quite dumb, yes. Compared to the animals
>you would expect to find on a farm they are certainly smarter than the
>chickens, but no where near as clever as pigs, dogs, cats, or foxes.

....or humans (which are also often found on farms).

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

On 23/03/22 01:27, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 11:49:25 -0000
> Janet <nobody@hame.cock> wrote:
>
>> In article <20220322113719.e1d15568ad5a9b6d10833738@g{oogle}mail.com>,
>> anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com says...
>>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps you were on rather long terms with
>>>
>>> I noticed this, and in deafault of a suitable adjective (in
>>> my ready memory), changed it to "not on familliar terms",
>>> but forgot to re-run the updated message throgh Groff. What
>>> adjective could be used in stead of "not familliar"?
>>
>> "Distant".
>>
>> I hope nobody here has had intercourse with horses, btw.
>>
> Neigh.

Sheep are a more convenient height.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>> wrote:
>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>>> known a horse.
>>
>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>> wiggle.
>
>If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you probably
>know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced to the horse.
>
>(On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been introduced to.
>It tried to throw me.)

My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".

My wife queried it, and eventually, after much indeterminate and
inconsequential discussion here, I decided to change it to
"scampered".

But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is BrE only and
will be annoying to Americans.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 24/03/22 18:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake
>>> <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>>>> known a horse.
>>>
>>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>>> wiggle.
>>
>> If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you
>> probably know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced
>> to the horse.
>>
>> (On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been
>> introduced to. It tried to throw me.)
>
> My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
> from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".
>
> My wife queried it, and eventually, after much indeterminate and
> inconsequential discussion here, I decided to change it to
> "scampered".
>
> But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is BrE only and
> will be annoying to Americans.

What about "ran" or "raced"?

When people see a leopard moving at speed, they are very unlikely to
take note of the precise leg movements, unless perhaps they are horse
fanciers.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 24/03/2022 7:56 am, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>>>> known a horse.
>>>
>>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>>> wiggle.
>>
>> If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you probably
>> know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced to the horse.
>>
>> (On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been introduced to.
>> It tried to throw me.)
>
> My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
> from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".

Well, frank to be, "cantered" do readeth right oddly; but "loped down
the hill" would not, so 'loped' I think away with get you can.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

* Steve Hayes:

> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>>>> known a horse.
>>>
>>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>>> wiggle.
>>
>>If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you probably
>>know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced to the horse.
>>
>>(On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been introduced to.
>>It tried to throw me.)
>
> My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
> from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".
>
> My wife queried it, and eventually, after much indeterminate and
> inconsequential discussion here, I decided to change it to
> "scampered".
>
> But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is BrE only and
> will be annoying to Americans.

I don't think so.

--
CW: Historical misogyny
.... gurve nirentr fvmr erznvaf fb zhpu fznyyre; fb gung gur fhz
gbgny bs sbbq pbairegrq vagb gubhtug ol jbzra pna arire rdhny
[gung bs] zra. Vg sbyybjf gurersber, gung zra jvyy nyjnlf guvax
zber guna jbzra. -- M.A. Hardaker in Popular Science (1881)

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 09:56:49 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
><peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've never
>>>> known a horse.
>>>
>>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>>> wiggle.
>>
>>If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you probably
>>know what a canter is even if you've never been introduced to the horse.
>>
>>(On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been introduced to.
>>It tried to throw me.)
>
>My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
>from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".
>
>My wife queried it, and eventually, after much indeterminate and
>inconsequential discussion here, I decided to change it to
>"scampered".
>
>But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is BrE only and
>will be annoying to Americans.

"Scampered" would not be annoying to Americans. It's a commonly used
word that is usually used to described playful movements of small
children: My grandchildren scampered into the room to welcome me."

I don't think I'd use it to describe the movement of an adult leopard
in the above instance, but I might to describe the movements of a
litter of little leopards.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

On 24/03/2022 1:59 pm, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 09:56:49 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 22:00:57 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/03/22 21:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:16:57 -0700, Ken Blake
>>>> <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>> You must have a broader range of friends than I do. I've
>>>>> never known a horse.
>>>>
>>>> In which case you probably wouldn't know a canter from a marsh
>>>> wiggle.
>>>
>>> If you've been through the desert on a horse with no name, you
>>> probably know what a canter is even if you've never been
>>> introduced to the horse.
>>>
>>> (On the other hand, I did once ride a horse I hadn't been
>>> introduced to. It tried to throw me.)
>>
>> My reason for asking is that I wrote, of a leopard trying to escape
>> from a haraaing bird, that it "cantered down the hill".
>>
>> My wife queried it, and eventually, after much indeterminate and
>> inconsequential discussion here, I decided to change it to
>> "scampered".
>>
>> But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is BrE only
>> and will be annoying to Americans.
>
> "Scampered" would not be annoying to Americans. It's a commonly used
> word that is usually used to described playful movements of small
> children: My grandchildren scampered into the room to welcome me."
>
> I don't think I'd use it to describe the movement of an adult leopard
> in the above instance, but I might to describe the movements of a
> litter of little leopards.

And while the little tykes scamper, their three white mothers keep a
careful eye on them as they sit under a juniper tree to digest a very
satisfactory lunch of legs, heart, and liver. After a languorous pause
one, in the studied manner of a caption, says "I keep thinking it's
Wednesday."

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Moylan to Steve Hayes:

> > But now someone on Twitter has said that "scampered" is
> > BrE only and will be annoying to Americans.
>
> What about "ran" or "raced"?

Depends on how Steve imagined the scene. If the downgrade
is steepish, running may not be possible.

--
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