I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.

As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.

La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.

Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.

Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.

Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.

On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 16:12:59 UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.
>
> As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.
>
> La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour.. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
>
> Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
>
> Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.
>
> Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.
YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
<owencadd@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO

Don't change my words:

>That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
>possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
>Pobomcoup or Entremont.

Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 16:28:00 UTC, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
> <owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
> Don't change my words:
> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
> >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
> >Pobomcoup or Entremont.
>
> Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
> origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
As Denis says, it does not matter where Pobomcoup was, what matters is what the DNA shews; it shows that the Meus were from the Eastern seaboard.
Whether in Canada or France, rich individuals could buy 'noble seigneuries', but it did not make their owners noble if they were not. There is a family in the UK called de Salle de Terrieres, whose name was never that in the 18th or 17th century, it was Favre, but they came from an area of that name in the Languedoc. The family had a huge domain created for it in Canada, but could never prove nobility in France, doing the next best thing as lettered and astute businessmen in Canada. they are now represented in the UK with a large domain in Scotland.
As Denis says, astute new men could create a new persona in a new environment, and these did!

Op maandag 25 april 2022 om 12:14:43 UTC+2 schreef Owen Caddell:
> This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
>
> Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler.. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
>
> As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
>
> Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).

>> This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. <<

This is not true, not then and not nowadays.
You are misinformed on this issue.

Hans Vogels
from The Netherlands

Op woensdag 22 maart 2023 om 23:55:53 UTC+1 schreef Owen Caddell:
> On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 16:12:59 UTC-7, JPD wrote:
> > I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not descend from Philippe Mius d’Entremont, but just looking over this thread I would say at best you only have a hypothesis that he might be related to Admiral de Coligny.. You need more evidence to test this hypothesis.
> >
> > As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.
> >
> > La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
> >
> > Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
> >
> > Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.
> >
> > Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.
> YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO

If I notice someone writing in capitals it means (to me) that his own arguments are not that strong and he is unwilling to admit that the other has a point.

Hans Vogels

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
> <owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
> Don't change my words:
> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
> >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
> >Pobomcoup or Entremont.
>
> Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
> origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.

The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.

Darrell

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
<frenchconnection1973@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00?PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
>> >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
>> >Pobomcoup or Entremont.
>>
>> Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
>> origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
>
>Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
>
>The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.

For Pobomcoup, perhaps. But Entremont is definitely French. Azy sounds
more French than Native.

My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places
named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
place.

For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.

That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
Rouen (76), both living around 1750.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 3:37:56 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:06:03 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
> <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00?PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> >> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
> >> >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
> >> >Pobomcoup or Entremont.
> >>
> >> Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
> >> origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
> >
> >Denis, I wouldn't even worry about it at this point... someone who insults people in that manner and choose to live in a fantasy world deserves stone cold silence.
> >
> >The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.
> For Pobomcoup, perhaps. But Entremont is definitely French. Azy sounds
> more French than Native.
>
> My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
> named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
> half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places
> named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
> place.
>
> For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
> France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
> be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.
>
> That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
> Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
> Rouen (76), both living around 1750.
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

Denis,

I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.

André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.

Darrell

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:32:51 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
<frenchconnection1973@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.

I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !

When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
when back home, but this didn't happen !

>André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a
Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.

Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
ancestor would be 1400 years ago.

But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
with 23andme, which is less accutare ?

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 8:47:52 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:

> I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
> word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
> cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !

I have Seigneur de Bricquebrec ancestry (through Alix Bertrand de Bricquebec, wife of Robert d'Estouteville), so I would never make that mistake! Funny.

> When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
> something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
> don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
> the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
> when back home, but this didn't happen !

I don't have that line in my extensive French ancestry that I know of, certainly not in Quebec!

> Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
> Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
> ancestor would be 1400 years ago.
>
> But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
> with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
> with 23andme, which is less accutare ?
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

Darrell

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
<frenchconnection1973@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
>
>https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm

From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized

The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.

That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
> <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
> Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
> >
> >https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics..htm
> From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
>
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
>
> The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
> too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
> inherited.
>
> That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
> specific pioneer with unknown origin.
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!

Darrell

On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 20:05:56 UTC+1, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
> > <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> > >My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
> > Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
> > >
> > >https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
> > From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
> >
> > https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
> >
> > The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
> > too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
> > inherited.
> >
> > That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
> > specific pioneer with unknown origin.
> > Denis
> >
> > --
> > Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> > Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> > French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> > Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
> I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
> de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
>
> Darrell
The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.

Peter

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 4:13:31 AM UTC-4, Peter de Loriol Chandieu wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 20:05:56 UTC+1, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> > > On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
> > > <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> > > >My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
> > > Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
> > > >
> > > >https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
> > > From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
> > >
> > > https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
> > >
> > > The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
> > > too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
> > > inherited.
> > >
> > > That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
> > > specific pioneer with unknown origin.
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > --
> > > Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> > > Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> > > French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> > > Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
> > I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
> > de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
> >
> > Darrell
> The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
> the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
>
> Peter

Peter,

The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.

There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied to the families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.

It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing more can be discovered.

Darrell

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:11:19 AM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 4:13:31 AM UTC-4, Peter de Loriol Chandieu wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 28 March 2023 at 20:05:56 UTC+1, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
> > > > <frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> > > > >My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
> > > > Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
> > > > >
> > > > >https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
> > > > From the results in the Cockburn project, the Larocque are too far.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
> > > >
> > > > The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
> > > > too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
> > > > inherited.
> > > >
> > > > That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
> > > > specific pioneer with unknown origin.
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> > > > Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> > > > French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> > > > Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
> > > I am looking at the Coqueborne family from Fussy, beginning with Mathieu de Cocqueborne, born about 1599 écuyer, Seigneur & Vicomte
> > > de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
> > >
> > > Darrell
> > The de cockborne family is still extant. the present head of the family is Joel Patrice , Baron de cockborne. The earliest member of the family to have been in the garde ecossaise was Adam de Cockborne, + 1585, Marechal des logis de la Garde Ecossaise, ancestor of the present.
> > the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
> >
> > Peter
> Peter,
>
> The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.
>
> There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied to the families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.
>
> It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing more can be discovered.
>
> Darrell

Not quite.
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> Not quite.
> Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
> And this science is only at its start

Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!

Darrell

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> > Not quite.
> > Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
> > And this science is only at its start
> Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
>
> Darrell

The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
Quebecois samples can be used.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhonson.2014@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41?PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06?PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
>> > Not quite.
>> > Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
>> > And this science is only at its start
>> Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
>>
>> Darrell
>
>The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
>Quebecois samples can be used.

The problem with Couillaud dit Larocque dit Roquebrune, Mius, many
Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from
optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.

In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
even reaching the Medieval times.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 2:35:04 PM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41?PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> >> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:34:06?PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> >> > Not quite.
> >> > Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
> >> > And this science is only at its start
> >> Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
> >>
> >> Darrell
> >
> >The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
> >Quebecois samples can be used.
> The problem with Couillaud dit Larocque dit Roquebrune, Mius, many
> Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
> signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from
> optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
> even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.
>
> In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
> in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
> even reaching the Medieval times.
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I'm speaking of autosomal clusters however
Not Y

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhonson.2014@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 2:35:04?PM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
>> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>> >The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
>> >Quebecois samples can be used.

>I'm speaking of autosomal clusters however
>Not Y

I tested with FTDNA-Family Finder and 23andme and both will show the
position of shared DNA. I say that for readers who may want to try.

I found a lot of "cousins" that are too far for the length of common
DNA and they have all a long common segment. And for this one, many
far cousins have their ancestors living far (300 miles) from my own
ancestors except one of them born 1794.

Also, I wrote some script to predict the theoretical shared DNA
between 2 persons by comparing their whole family tree (in my
database, I can associate a number to each person so I actually
compare these numbers, the number of generations, presume they
gave half of their DNA and that their own parents provided the
other half, so as to take into account the endogamy because of our
small founding population. And I isolate the common ancestors I
share with those cousins.

Starting from myself, I found thus far 6 remote cousins sharing that
long segment and built their complete genealogical tree.

I found 81 common ancestors for them all. The number of common
ancestors (between them) that I found after adding each now cousin
is getting smaller each time but the series is:

212
143
108
91
81

So I may need 10 more cousins to find some unique common ancestor
having some unique DNA segment. But I have only 6 more cousins
with that long segment.

But then, what do I get ? I mean I identified 7 people sharing some
common DNA segment, but what can I do more ? Sure I can use this
segment to identify those cousins, but the 23andme report is already
reporting the list. Also, the NPE rate is about 1/200. So, in the
34,000 I have found for my first set of 6 cousins, 85 can be the
wrong father. So there is some probability that the common ancestor
I would find could be the wrong one.

Anyway, I don't see how the autosomal tests can be useful to reach
the medieval times. From this test, I think we can't isolate the
original carrier of a long segment from New France ancestry. And
this is probably the place (with Iceland) where it is possible to
identified almost all ancestors before 1800.

Some long segments can be identified. All I can conclude is that
when they are found, then the relationship will be much larger (i.e.
not 5th cousins but 7th or 8th cousin) than what actually happened.
But that's all.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.

However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.

Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700

It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility

And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant

So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants

I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago

So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
>
> However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
>
> Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
>
> It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
>
> And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
>
> So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
>
> I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
> I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
>
> So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
> we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters

The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor

You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:46:00 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhonson.2014@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05?PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
>> I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
>>
>> However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
>>
>> Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
>>
>> It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
>>
>> And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
>>
>> So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
>>
>> I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
>> I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
>>
>> So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
>> we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
>
>
>The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
>You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
>You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
>But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
>
>You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
>This is clustering

I have an access to many Family Finders as an admin of projects
at FTDNA and some people sent me their lists of relatives from
23andme, so I have some more data to analyze. And in my own 23andme
and FF results, I have more long segments.

But all this is very time expensive. Perhaps you may find some
signature from autosomal DNA but I would suppose this is possible
in area where a lot of people are testing, for example because they
have more money in the family or someone is willing to find the
origin for some genetic disease or there is no record available so
autosomal tests may help.

In 2018, I talked with a genetician trying to find the origin of
some defective gene using a large genealogical database and
probably a long set of DNA results but failed, so I may suppose
that in my own area, odds are small, but in other area, odds are
better because more tests are available.

I am now back to Y and MT DNA triangulations ! Not medieval however.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:46:02 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> > I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
> >
> > However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
> >
> > Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
> >
> > It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
> >
> > And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
> >
> > So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
> >
> > I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
> > I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
> >
> > So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
> > we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
> The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
> You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
> You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
> But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
>
> You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
> This is clustering

Will,

I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.

We need FRENCH DNA badly. We cannot simply rely on clusters of cousins that exclude French ones... imagine someone telling you that they walked from Paris to Calais and them only telling you that they didn't use any major roads. How are you supposed to figure out the points in the middle? I have DNA information from:

Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlands
Ruut in Estonia
Edgar, Langley in England
Osborne in Ireland
Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland

This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA clusters, we are blind.

Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.

Darrell