On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 12:07:28 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:46:02 PM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:44:05 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> > > I dont disagree that many many many people have stated that DNA-inherited segments break down quickly over generations.
> > >
> > > However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
> > >
> > > Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
> > >
> > > It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
> > >
> > > And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
> > >
> > > So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
> > >
> > > I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
> > > I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
> > >
> > > So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
> > > we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
> > The problem you are reporting is because you are relying solely on your OWN test
> > You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
> > You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
> > But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
> >
> > You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
> > This is clustering
> Will,
>
> I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.
>
> We need FRENCH DNA badly. We cannot simply rely on clusters of cousins that exclude French ones... imagine someone telling you that they walked from Paris to Calais and them only telling you that they didn't use any major roads. How are you supposed to figure out the points in the middle? I have DNA information from:
>
> Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlands
> Ruut in Estonia
> Edgar, Langley in England
> Osborne in Ireland
> Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland
>
> This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA clusters, we are blind.
>
> Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.
>
> Darrell

So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
<wjhonson.2014@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
>You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
>They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.

Because of founding effect, this is not true.

If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.

Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.

And by the way, Piedmont is in Italy, not in France !

The autosomal test is based on about 600,000 values. The criteria
of FTDNA was to accept 100 consecutive SNPs (I think they changed
to 600 some times ago). So, to have a common ancestor that is not
a matter of coincidence, you need a segment of say at least 100
values.

600,000 for me
300,000 for my parents
150,000 for my g-parents.
....
585 after 8 more generations.
146 after 11 more generations.

And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 8:36:33 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
> >You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
> >They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
> Because of founding effect, this is not true.
>
> If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
> different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
> sum up.
>
> Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
> of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
> comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
>
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

You said it better than I could... the founding effect... a small population of people related to each other in many ways is not comparable to the French population! We have the edges of the puzzle but the middle is locked behind French bioethics law...

Darrell

On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 5:36:33 PM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
> >You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
> >They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
> Because of founding effect, this is not true.
>
> If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
> different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
> sum up.
>

>
> And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
> All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
> predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
> 23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
> that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
> number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.

Yes Denis.
This is why you cannot use just your own test
You must have a cluster of tests. Tests from your fifteen cousins.
You must compare them all to each other. This is clustering.
This is the next generation process for going back in time.
>
> --

On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 7:02:09 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 8:36:33 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
> > On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> > <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> > >So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
> > >You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
> > >They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
> > Because of founding effect, this is not true.
> >
> > If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
> > different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
> > sum up.
> >
> > Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
> > of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
> > comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > --
> > Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> > Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> > French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> > Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
> You said it better than I could... the founding effect... a small population of people related to each other in many ways is not comparable to the French population! We have the edges of the puzzle but the middle is locked behind French bioethics law...
>
> Darrell

I mean people can keep saying "What you are actually doing in fact, is not possible!"
And yet it is being done.
It's hard to argue with people who insist that what we are actually doing, is not happening.

By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.

You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.

In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.

My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
>
> You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
> Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
> Rinse and repeat.
>
> In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
>
> My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.

You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> > By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
> >
> > You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
> > Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
> > Rinse and repeat.
> >
> > In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
> >
> > My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.
> You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.

Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:08:10 PM UTC-4, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> > > By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
> > >
> > > You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
> > > Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
> > > Rinse and repeat.
> > >
> > > In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
> > >
> > > My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.
> > You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.
> Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.

I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.

Darrell

On Wed, 5 Apr 2023 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT), "Darrell E. Larocque"
<frenchconnection1973@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:08:10?PM UTC-4, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.
>
>I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how
you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.

Y DNA will follow the strict father to son lineages, i.e. only men
carry that Y chromosome. Triangulations (partly with no paper trail)
can reach 1000 years ago.

MT DNA is given by the mother to all children except that only
daughters will carry it to the next generation so that MT DNA
will follow the maternal lineage. Triangulations need a paper trail
because family names are changing in our culture.

Autosomal DNA is carried by every one and split 50:50 to children
but not 25:25:25:25 to the next generation. One result is that some
sticky segment may survive for a long time. I have found myself
such a segment surviving since about 300 years, perhaps more, but I
can't identify who provided it. I spent a week to study this segment
because 23andme is not providing many details to identify the cousins
(FTDNA is more helpful but has a small base of users while AncestryDNA
has more users but no details about the shared segments). Maybe I can
find more segments to study (about myself) or someone can give me a
full access to his/her 23andme and tested his cousins, but all this is
time consuming.

The theory of Will is that if you can identify who carried it in 1700,
then you can find deeper ancestry also carrying it. It seems that Will
has some illimited budget for DNA testing and a lot of cousins who
accept to be tested, and also a huge team of genealogists to found all
the involved pedigrees. And 1700 is not yet medieval times.

One problem in New France is endogamy and founding effect. One very
good point in New France is that there are so many tools to complete
a genealogy that you can verify most of the lineages you find.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790

You cannot identify sticky segments just by your own DNA test.
Well you can, perhaps for a hundred years back

As you try to go back further, you will find that pedigree collapse hinders you yourself alone from identifying sticky segments because your own knowledge and the paper trail fail you at some point.

This is why you need a cluster of DNA tests. That is, you need to be able to view, manage, own, a set of DNA tests for all kinds of family members.

You must eliminate the possibility of NPEs in each line, one by one, prove descent from multiple collateral lines, identify any potential double cousins situations. There are many steps, and you can't do it only with your own test results.

I have access to about 90 tests, so I'm in a unique situation I suppose. Most people don't care to do that level of work.

However even just having access say to a few first cousins, and a few second cousins tests, you can make tremendous progress in identifying which segments, came down from which ancestral couples

You can then, using Gedmatch, search for anyone else with that overlapping segment and collaborate with them

I wish I had a team of genealogists.
I am slowly, but steadily teaching others my genetoarbre triangulation process
Too many people have their head in mud and don't seem to comprehend that it is possible to do

On Wednesday, 5 April 2023 at 09:55:47 UTC-4, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:08:10 PM UTC-4, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:59:30 AM UTC-4, Will Johnson wrote:
> > > > By the way, the way you use Autosomal DNA to get past the issue that you have ten segments, descending from the same ancestral couple through ten different paths is.
> > > >
> > > > You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
> > > > Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
> > > > Rinse and repeat.
> > > >
> > > > In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
> > > >
> > > > My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.
> > > You must have missed my explanation about Philibert's origins and how very few from Nivernais settled in New France. You have to have others to compare to according to your explanation, and we Larocques/Larocks/Rocks do not have that. I just took a glance at what pioneers from Poitou (where Pierre Allard came from) as compared to Nivernais are represented and Poitou has several hundred while Nivernais has 13. It's just not that large of a genetic footprint to get answers from.
> > Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.
> I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.
>
> Darrell

Hi Darrell! My name is MichaëI Larocque am an ancestor of Philibert Couilliard dit Roquebrune and I live in Ottawa, Ontario.
I am very new to ancestry and geanology and was wondering if there could be a way we could communicate online about our ancestors together.
Because I am new I have found it difficult understanding everything and find I might be getting things wrong aswell. Also before reading everything written here I had no clue that there was a Y test done or anything like that which connects to Scottish. Could you enlighten me a bit on that?

Looks like y'all have did a dead end. Not surprising considering y'all heeding the advice of a man (Denis Beauregard) who believes that la Pere d'Acadie (Charles La Tour) was a Catholic. LOL!!! Misinformed.