How does one spell yia, yia!?

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 7:30:33 AM UTC+10, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 4:57:46 PM UTC+2, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > It certainly has a negative vibe to it.
> Nagging aboout "the tone": lack of arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg

Well that's a bit of an inferior way to out it, to jump to the thoughts of others for defence. Just wait, seen some Steve Jobs videos, maybe he has something to apply here, rather than me figuring out what to say. Yes, politely put, a bit of a negative vibe, to back up others, is perfectly alright..

> > You got to remember, it's only free personal stuff
> I already addressed that one.

That was part of the backing up of the others.

> > as long as the documentation covers the functionality correctly
> If it is incorrect - agreed, that's worse.

Useful Minimalism.

> > Some people around here seem insanely jealous of people sticking theirs heads up, chest out, or neck out. It's nuts.
> Weasel speak. Which people - be specific.

Incredible. They know who they are. No use trying to start FWx,by being too direct. I've been around since the 1990's, if seen a lot of stuff here.

> > Though, you should be able to do it in not many pages.
> I'd genuinely like to see that. But if I take the best documentation I ever viewed (Unix manuals and Borland manuals) and the ones I threw out of the window in frustration, I'm somewhat skeptical.

The lesson is, you shouldn' t expect too much, and piss on people so much. There are often going be somebody with better standards or talents.

> > So, you could rewrite your documentation for color fourth the, and charge $10 for the effort. I certainly would think it's interesting. But, you could do this for many languages you think are deficient, as a sort of programming guide system.
> FYI: I already published a Forth manual under FDL. They're free to use it.. Others have done it - and I'm happy to provide a link: https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/
> And you can't have me for a mere $10 ;-) That's not a fee, that's change.

? A $10 book spread over tens of thousands of sales, makes it worth it, and if your writing is do good that it gets hundreds of thousands of new people on board, you have proven your point.

> > Howard is right, to keep going, you are right, that documentation standards should be more, but not many are good at that, and around here, not many seem to need more than the basics.
> How do you know?! Do you measure it by the number of survivors or the ones that silently sank to the bottom of the ocean

Exactly! Now you are getting it. Around here a lot has been sunk into the ocean, with a lot of crusty seasoned forth sailors left, who only need the basics of the spec and how to use it.

> > So, you night like to collaborate with other Forth language writers, on a format for writing documentation to replace Starting Forth + manual approach.
> I've started "And so Forth.." in the last century, because people complained that my manual had errors, because the code didn't work.
> It proved to be they were applying the lessons to their own Forth variant - and that was not what the manual was all about. So I wrote
> this vanilla thing, asked if somebody wanted to participate, nobody came - and in the meanwhile I've lost just about every interest.

As part of an ANS standardisation project! They are some of the more proactive people around.

But seriously, it's not worth getting negative unless it's negative people starting fights all the time, or trying to stone people right up. I could wax lyrical about a lot of stuff, but that's probably just going be a waste of time. If they can take good advice ok, if they want to keep wrongly throwing it month after month, year after year no. You tell them, discuss or explain, and move on. Which is this case, is not about the documentation, but about the tone!

Have a good day Hans. Thanks for the link to your forth primer, that's a useful thing to have, but maybe ANS could do an open source compiler, toolset, code routine base, and documentation, in easy to use and read style, commercial companies could freely adjust and use to base their Forth's on, without capture licensing. That might progress things a bit. But really, they should adopt one of chicks forths, as above, as a Micro-Forth sub standard within ANS. Controlled by ANS to be a dime version for embedded, educational and personal. But then again, maybe it wouldn't work! I think Jeff would see the use in that. If he was still around, working the micro side of Forth (I use h as an example, because he did the most extensive work related to machine and color forth like concepts).

Wayne.

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:22:47 PM UTC+2, Wayne morellini wrote:
> Well that's a bit of an inferior way to out it, to jump to the thoughts of others for defence. Just wait, seen some Steve Jobs videos, maybe he has something to apply here, rather than me figuring out what to say. Yes, politely put, a bit of a negative vibe, to back up others, is perfectly alright..

No, it's not. It is a very useful sieve to shift the distractions from actual, valid arguments.
Steve Jobs may be a lot, but certainly not an expert in this area. So that is another fallacy,
"call to authority". I will disregard your other "tone argument" fallacy.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument

> ? A $10 book spread over tens of thousands of sales, makes it worth it, and if your writing
is do good that it gets hundreds of thousands of new people on board, you have proven your point.

It's a free project, so that doesn't apply. I don't do things to prove my point. That's a waste of
energy. A friend of mine joined the Army just to prove his dad he was a real man. After four
years of hell he returned home and said to his dad "I told you I can do it!" - on which his father
responded "I was in the Navy. The Army is for losers!"

> Exactly! Now you are getting it. Around here a lot has been sunk into the ocean,
with a lot of crusty seasoned forth sailors left, who only need the basics of the spec
and how to use it.

Not exactly. A lot of people are put off by this elitist view that permeates in Forth circles. They
can't get any help and throw it off as soon as they can and go to more useful languages like
Python and Lua, which DO have plenty of understandable and consistent resources - and compilers
that don't blow up in your face when you make a slight error (although there has been improvement).

And then the Forth community wonders why their propaganda does not lead to more Forth programmers.
Well, I'll tell you. It's the Waynes in this world which tell them "You can drown as far as I am concerned.
If you're not a crusty, seasoned Forth sailor you don't even have the right to live".

The consequence of this mentality is that Forth itself has fallen from the raft and has now sunk
so deep in the "Most used programming languages" list, that it needs a bathyscaphe to find it.

> But seriously, it's not worth getting negative unless it's negative people starting fights all the time.
A comment is not a fight. The response could also have been "What do you mean, what is lacking?"
However, this person chose to ask for my documentation. So he got it.

> I could wax lyrical about a lot of stuff, but that's probably just going be a waste of time.
I too. If people would refrain from logical fallacies and state their arguments, that could be
quite fruitful.

> You tell them, discuss or explain, and move on.
I told them. They chose an "ad hominem" logical fallacy. They could have chosen another approach.

> Which is this case, is not about the documentation, but about the tone!
It is about the documentation and returning to a logical fallacy is hardly useful. Do you people
never learn?

> ANS could do an open source compiler, toolset, code routine base, and documentation.
It's a standardization committee - not a development team.

Hans Bezemer

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:22:47 PM UTC-4, Wayne morellini wrote:
> How does one spell yia, yia!?
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 7:30:33 AM UTC+10, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 4:57:46 PM UTC+2, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > It certainly has a negative vibe to it.
> > Nagging aboout "the tone": lack of arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg
> Well that's a bit of an inferior way to out it, to jump to the thoughts of others for defence. Just wait, seen some Steve Jobs videos, maybe he has something to apply here, rather than me figuring out what to say. Yes, politely put, a bit of a negative vibe, to back up others, is perfectly alright..
> > > You got to remember, it's only free personal stuff
> > I already addressed that one.
> That was part of the backing up of the others.
> > > as long as the documentation covers the functionality correctly
> > If it is incorrect - agreed, that's worse.
> Useful Minimalism.
> > > Some people around here seem insanely jealous of people sticking theirs heads up, chest out, or neck out. It's nuts.
> > Weasel speak. Which people - be specific.
> Incredible. They know who they are. No use trying to start FWx,by being too direct. I've been around since the 1990's, if seen a lot of stuff here.
> > > Though, you should be able to do it in not many pages.
> > I'd genuinely like to see that. But if I take the best documentation I ever viewed (Unix manuals and Borland manuals) and the ones I threw out of the window in frustration, I'm somewhat skeptical.
> The lesson is, you shouldn' t expect too much, and piss on people so much.. There are often going be somebody with better standards or talents.
> > > So, you could rewrite your documentation for color fourth the, and charge $10 for the effort. I certainly would think it's interesting. But, you could do this for many languages you think are deficient, as a sort of programming guide system.
> > FYI: I already published a Forth manual under FDL. They're free to use it. Others have done it - and I'm happy to provide a link: https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/
> > And you can't have me for a mere $10 ;-) That's not a fee, that's change.
> ? A $10 book spread over tens of thousands of sales, makes it worth it, and if your writing is do good that it gets hundreds of thousands of new people on board, you have proven your point.
> > > Howard is right, to keep going, you are right, that documentation standards should be more, but not many are good at that, and around here, not many seem to need more than the basics.
> > How do you know?! Do you measure it by the number of survivors or the ones that silently sank to the bottom of the ocean
> Exactly! Now you are getting it. Around here a lot has been sunk into the ocean, with a lot of crusty seasoned forth sailors left, who only need the basics of the spec and how to use it.
> > > So, you night like to collaborate with other Forth language writers, on a format for writing documentation to replace Starting Forth + manual approach.
> > I've started "And so Forth.." in the last century, because people complained that my manual had errors, because the code didn't work.
> > It proved to be they were applying the lessons to their own Forth variant - and that was not what the manual was all about. So I wrote
> > this vanilla thing, asked if somebody wanted to participate, nobody came - and in the meanwhile I've lost just about every interest.
> As part of an ANS standardisation project! They are some of the more proactive people around.
>
> But seriously, it's not worth getting negative unless it's negative people starting fights all the time, or trying to stone people right up. I could wax lyrical about a lot of stuff, but that's probably just going be a waste of time. If they can take good advice ok, if they want to keep wrongly throwing it month after month, year after year no. You tell them, discuss or explain, and move on. Which is this case, is not about the documentation, but about the tone!
>
> Have a good day Hans. Thanks for the link to your forth primer, that's a useful thing to have, but maybe ANS could do an open source compiler, toolset, code routine base, and documentation, in easy to use and read style, commercial companies could freely adjust and use to base their Forth's on, without capture licensing. That might progress things a bit. But really, they should adopt one of chicks forths, as above, as a Micro-Forth sub standard within ANS. Controlled by ANS to be a dime version for embedded, educational and personal. But then again, maybe it wouldn't work! I think Jeff would see the use in that. If he was still around, working the micro side of Forth (I use h as an example, because he did the most extensive work related to machine and color forth like concepts).
>
>
> Wayne.
I'd like to see Forthers agree that there are 2+ mutually-exclusive forks to keeping Forth alive today and in the future.

1) Maintain the gforth 32 and 64 bit desktop *nix environments.
1a) Cut a Win10 amd64 gforth executable.
2) Support novel snake-in-the-grass embedded computers that have 2 stacks and fast calls/returns.

Jimbo is not James Bond.

- Myron

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 1:46:42 PM UTC-4, Myron Plichota wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:22:47 PM UTC-4, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > How does one spell yia, yia!?
> > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 7:30:33 AM UTC+10, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 4:57:46 PM UTC+2, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > > It certainly has a negative vibe to it.
> > > Nagging aboout "the tone": lack of arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg
> > Well that's a bit of an inferior way to out it, to jump to the thoughts of others for defence. Just wait, seen some Steve Jobs videos, maybe he has something to apply here, rather than me figuring out what to say. Yes, politely put, a bit of a negative vibe, to back up others, is perfectly alright.
> > > > You got to remember, it's only free personal stuff
> > > I already addressed that one.
> > That was part of the backing up of the others.
> > > > as long as the documentation covers the functionality correctly
> > > If it is incorrect - agreed, that's worse.
> > Useful Minimalism.
> > > > Some people around here seem insanely jealous of people sticking theirs heads up, chest out, or neck out. It's nuts.
> > > Weasel speak. Which people - be specific.
> > Incredible. They know who they are. No use trying to start FWx,by being too direct. I've been around since the 1990's, if seen a lot of stuff here..
> > > > Though, you should be able to do it in not many pages.
> > > I'd genuinely like to see that. But if I take the best documentation I ever viewed (Unix manuals and Borland manuals) and the ones I threw out of the window in frustration, I'm somewhat skeptical.
> > The lesson is, you shouldn' t expect too much, and piss on people so much. There are often going be somebody with better standards or talents.
> > > > So, you could rewrite your documentation for color fourth the, and charge $10 for the effort. I certainly would think it's interesting. But, you could do this for many languages you think are deficient, as a sort of programming guide system.
> > > FYI: I already published a Forth manual under FDL. They're free to use it. Others have done it - and I'm happy to provide a link: https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/
> > > And you can't have me for a mere $10 ;-) That's not a fee, that's change.
> > ? A $10 book spread over tens of thousands of sales, makes it worth it, and if your writing is do good that it gets hundreds of thousands of new people on board, you have proven your point.
> > > > Howard is right, to keep going, you are right, that documentation standards should be more, but not many are good at that, and around here, not many seem to need more than the basics.
> > > How do you know?! Do you measure it by the number of survivors or the ones that silently sank to the bottom of the ocean
> > Exactly! Now you are getting it. Around here a lot has been sunk into the ocean, with a lot of crusty seasoned forth sailors left, who only need the basics of the spec and how to use it.
> > > > So, you night like to collaborate with other Forth language writers, on a format for writing documentation to replace Starting Forth + manual approach.
> > > I've started "And so Forth.." in the last century, because people complained that my manual had errors, because the code didn't work.
> > > It proved to be they were applying the lessons to their own Forth variant - and that was not what the manual was all about. So I wrote
> > > this vanilla thing, asked if somebody wanted to participate, nobody came - and in the meanwhile I've lost just about every interest.
> > As part of an ANS standardisation project! They are some of the more proactive people around.
> >
> > But seriously, it's not worth getting negative unless it's negative people starting fights all the time, or trying to stone people right up. I could wax lyrical about a lot of stuff, but that's probably just going be a waste of time. If they can take good advice ok, if they want to keep wrongly throwing it month after month, year after year no. You tell them, discuss or explain, and move on. Which is this case, is not about the documentation, but about the tone!
> >
> > Have a good day Hans. Thanks for the link to your forth primer, that's a useful thing to have, but maybe ANS could do an open source compiler, toolset, code routine base, and documentation, in easy to use and read style, commercial companies could freely adjust and use to base their Forth's on, without capture licensing. That might progress things a bit. But really, they should adopt one of chicks forths, as above, as a Micro-Forth sub standard within ANS. Controlled by ANS to be a dime version for embedded, educational and personal. But then again, maybe it wouldn't work! I think Jeff would see the use in that. If he was still around, working the micro side of Forth (I use h as an example, because he did the most extensive work related to machine and color forth like concepts).
> >
> >
> > Wayne.
> I'd like to see Forthers agree that there are 2+ mutually-exclusive forks to keeping Forth alive today and in the future.
>
> 1) Maintain the gforth 32 and 64 bit desktop *nix environments.
> 1a) Cut a Win10 amd64 gforth executable.
> 2) Support novel snake-in-the-grass embedded computers that have 2 stacks and fast calls/returns.
>
> Jimbo is not James Bond.
>
> - Myron
I correct myself "there are 2+ mutually-exclusive forks to keeping Forth alive" -> "there is more than 1 way of keeping Forth alive"

On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 18:57:24 UTC+1, Myron Plichota wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 1:46:42 PM UTC-4, Myron Plichota wrote:
> > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 12:22:47 PM UTC-4, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > How does one spell yia, yia!?
> > > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 7:30:33 AM UTC+10, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 4:57:46 PM UTC+2, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > > > It certainly has a negative vibe to it.
> > > > Nagging aboout "the tone": lack of arguments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg
> > > Well that's a bit of an inferior way to out it, to jump to the thoughts of others for defence. Just wait, seen some Steve Jobs videos, maybe he has something to apply here, rather than me figuring out what to say. Yes, politely put, a bit of a negative vibe, to back up others, is perfectly alright.
> > > > > You got to remember, it's only free personal stuff
> > > > I already addressed that one.
> > > That was part of the backing up of the others.
> > > > > as long as the documentation covers the functionality correctly
> > > > If it is incorrect - agreed, that's worse.
> > > Useful Minimalism.
> > > > > Some people around here seem insanely jealous of people sticking theirs heads up, chest out, or neck out. It's nuts.
> > > > Weasel speak. Which people - be specific.
> > > Incredible. They know who they are. No use trying to start FWx,by being too direct. I've been around since the 1990's, if seen a lot of stuff here.
> > > > > Though, you should be able to do it in not many pages.
> > > > I'd genuinely like to see that. But if I take the best documentation I ever viewed (Unix manuals and Borland manuals) and the ones I threw out of the window in frustration, I'm somewhat skeptical.
> > > The lesson is, you shouldn' t expect too much, and piss on people so much. There are often going be somebody with better standards or talents.
> > > > > So, you could rewrite your documentation for color fourth the, and charge $10 for the effort. I certainly would think it's interesting. But, you could do this for many languages you think are deficient, as a sort of programming guide system.
> > > > FYI: I already published a Forth manual under FDL. They're free to use it. Others have done it - and I'm happy to provide a link: https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/
> > > > And you can't have me for a mere $10 ;-) That's not a fee, that's change.
> > > ? A $10 book spread over tens of thousands of sales, makes it worth it, and if your writing is do good that it gets hundreds of thousands of new people on board, you have proven your point.
> > > > > Howard is right, to keep going, you are right, that documentation standards should be more, but not many are good at that, and around here, not many seem to need more than the basics.
> > > > How do you know?! Do you measure it by the number of survivors or the ones that silently sank to the bottom of the ocean
> > > Exactly! Now you are getting it. Around here a lot has been sunk into the ocean, with a lot of crusty seasoned forth sailors left, who only need the basics of the spec and how to use it.
> > > > > So, you night like to collaborate with other Forth language writers, on a format for writing documentation to replace Starting Forth + manual approach.
> > > > I've started "And so Forth.." in the last century, because people complained that my manual had errors, because the code didn't work.
> > > > It proved to be they were applying the lessons to their own Forth variant - and that was not what the manual was all about. So I wrote
> > > > this vanilla thing, asked if somebody wanted to participate, nobody came - and in the meanwhile I've lost just about every interest.
> > > As part of an ANS standardisation project! They are some of the more proactive people around.
> > >
> > > But seriously, it's not worth getting negative unless it's negative people starting fights all the time, or trying to stone people right up. I could wax lyrical about a lot of stuff, but that's probably just going be a waste of time. If they can take good advice ok, if they want to keep wrongly throwing it month after month, year after year no. You tell them, discuss or explain, and move on. Which is this case, is not about the documentation, but about the tone!
> > >
> > > Have a good day Hans. Thanks for the link to your forth primer, that's a useful thing to have, but maybe ANS could do an open source compiler, toolset, code routine base, and documentation, in easy to use and read style, commercial companies could freely adjust and use to base their Forth's on, without capture licensing. That might progress things a bit. But really, they should adopt one of chicks forths, as above, as a Micro-Forth sub standard within ANS. Controlled by ANS to be a dime version for embedded, educational and personal. But then again, maybe it wouldn't work! I think Jeff would see the use in that. If he was still around, working the micro side of Forth (I use h as an example, because he did the most extensive work related to machine and color forth like concepts).
> > >
> > >
> > > Wayne.
> > I'd like to see Forthers agree that there are 2+ mutually-exclusive forks to keeping Forth alive today and in the future.
> >
> > 1) Maintain the gforth 32 and 64 bit desktop *nix environments.
> > 1a) Cut a Win10 amd64 gforth executable.
> > 2) Support novel snake-in-the-grass embedded computers that have 2 stacks and fast calls/returns.
> >
> > Jimbo is not James Bond.
> >
> > - Myron
> I correct myself "there are 2+ mutually-exclusive forks to keeping Forth alive" -> "there is more than 1 way of keeping Forth alive"

I find it funny, that most of the posts here have nothing to do with

ANN: colorForth cf2022 257 views

But this seems to be the essence of Forth ....

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 8:39:30 PM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> I find it funny, that most of the posts here have nothing to do with
>
> ANN: colorForth cf2022 257 views
>
> But this seems to be the essence of Forth ....

Well, we started discussing the quality of the documentation of cf.
Then somebody thought is was a good idea to get the rulers out.

And now he wonders.. Strange world.

Hans Bezemer

On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 19:58:10 UTC+1, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 8:39:30 PM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I find it funny, that most of the posts here have nothing to do with
> >
> > ANN: colorForth cf2022 257 views
> >
> > But this seems to be the essence of Forth ....
> Well, we started discussing the quality of the documentation of cf.
> Then somebody thought is was a good idea to get the rulers out.
>
> And now he wonders.. Strange world.
>
> Hans Bezemer

not at all.

The usual CLF Policy;
change the subject and take over the discussion.

The number of Forthers is reducing
so the ones left take over.

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:10:52 AM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote:
> dxforth <dxf...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Few of us are trained or employed as technical writers but find
> > ourselves having to document. The main criteria being it can be
> > understood by our peers.
[..]
> Basically he writes a sentence of documentation, then sits back and
> re-reads it, and asks himself what the next thing is that the user will
> want to know after reading that sentence. That tells him what sentence
> to write next. Repeat until all topics for the document are covered.

It works for him, but if I would do that, chances are I'd find a much
better way to do that particular item. There is more to it than
wanting to write perfect documentation. Like not under-estimating
your peers.

-marcel

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 11:19:30 PM UTC+2, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> There is more to it than
> wanting to write perfect documentation. Like not under-estimating
> your peers.

... or overestimating. Every teacher will tell you. It's that subtle balance
that hits the right spot.

Hans Bezemer

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:24:01 PM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> The usual CLF Policy;
> change the subject and take over the discussion.
Is that what you're trying to do here? In order to get away from that
painful spot?

> The number of Forthers is reducing
> so the ones left take over.
What you'd expect? The ones who have left taking over?
Weird way of reasoning..

Hans Bezemer

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:14:46 AM UTC+2, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 11:19:30 PM UTC+2, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> > There is more to it than
> > wanting to write perfect documentation. Like not under-estimating
> > your peers.
> .. or overestimating. Every teacher will tell you. It's that subtle balance
> that hits the right spot.

It is not possible to 'over-estimate one's peers.' And a teacher that
under- or over-estimates his peers is not as big as a problem as
doing the same with his audience.

-marcel

On 8/04/2022 21:25, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 10:10:52 AM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> RMS told me how he writes documentation. I don't follow the method
>> exactly, but keep something like it in mind, and I find that it helps.
>> Basically he writes a sentence of documentation, then sits back and
>> re-reads it, and asks himself what the next thing is that the user will
>> want to know after reading that sentence. That tells him what sentence
>> to write next. Repeat until all topics for the document are covered.
> Basically - I think that's exactly the proper method. E.g. I was recently working
> on the basics of basics - absolute beginner stuff. Assign a value to a variable.
> Well, if *I* were a perfect beginner, I would ask myself "what if I REASSIGN
> the same or a different value to the same variable? Would it still be taken?
> Or do I have to erase it first? So yes - that's a proper thing. I support that one.
>
>> Then, print out the resulting document and circulate it to a few people
>> for comments. Implement the suggestions and circulate again. Two or so
>> iterations of that is usually enough to get a serviceable document.
> Agreed again. The feedback from your users is EXACTLY what you need to make
> it better. The problem is - you know all this stuff already. It's crystal clear to you,
> otherwise you wouldn't be writing about it. My take is, basically every comment
> should lead to some changes in the text. Because most people wouldn't go to
> the trouble informing you if everything was alright.
>
> Thanks for your valuable insight! I appreciate it.

It'd be interesting to know whether Brodie did any of that. Those who
can put themselves in the shoes of their audience may not need feedback;
whereas those who can't or won't, do but are unlikely to seek it. Not
unlike leaders!

On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 23:17:34 UTC+1, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 9:24:01 PM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The usual CLF Policy;
> > change the subject and take over the discussion.
> Is that what you're trying to do here? In order to get away from that
> painful spot?
> > The number of Forthers is reducing
> > so the ones left take over.
> What you'd expect? The ones who have left taking over?
> Weird way of reasoning..
>
> Hans Bezemer

Just stop bullshitting here. Dump your shit elsewhere.
Howard kindly posted what he had prepared.
And you change it into personal smear.

You might not have realized at your age yet, how people - including you - change the subject here.

I do not know which painful shot you mean.
Regarding writing, translating and publishing I can show quite a few references
Done over the last 40 years ...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM

and regarding

> What you'd expect? The ones who have left taking over?
> Weird way of reasoning..

Yes, weired you are.
Here your special bullshit actually beats Hugh Aguilar when active.
CONGRATULATIONS.

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:30:09 AM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just stop bullshitting here. Dump your shit elsewhere.
I'm not bullshitting. I just take the bullshit and expose it for what it is. That's
my purpose in life.

> Howard kindly posted what he had prepared.
> And you change it into personal smear.
Not at all. Take a good look at what I commented on. It is all concerning
THE PRODUCT. Personal smear is your particular skill and expertise.

> You might not have realized at your age yet, how people - including you - change the subject here.
So what is my age?

> I do not know which painful shot you mean.
Frankly, because you challenged, you got called and you dragged everything into the conversation
to cover that up.

> Regarding writing, translating and publishing I can show quite a few references
> Done over the last 40 years ...
Call to authority fallacy.

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM
Gee! I never knew you were Leo Brodie! Or C.H. Ting! CHARLES MOORE!
Or Stephen Pelc! It's AMAZING! You're really a man of many faces!
> Here your special bullshit actually beats Hugh Aguilar when active.
> CONGRATULATIONS.
Not really - it's basic logic. If people aren't participating, that includes writing messages.
So if you see a message, it must have been from the ones that are still left.

It's really bad if you fail to see that. I'd consult a medical doctor if I were you.
Such loss of mental capacity is not normal.

Hans Bezemer

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 8:39:51 AM UTC+2, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> It is not possible to 'over-estimate one's peers.' And a teacher that
> under- or over-estimates his peers is not as big as a problem as
> doing the same with his audience.
Well, you have to define "peers" in order to discuss that any further. However,
in order to have peers you somebody has to make them peers.

Hans Bezemer

Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
> > The number of Forthers is reducing
> > so the ones left take over.
> What you'd expect? The ones who have left taking over?
> Weird way of reasoning..

I kinda sorta "left". But I keep an eye, because Forth is an unusual
technology, and sometimes that's the catalyst for something interesting and
new.

Sometimes.

Andy Valencia
Home page: https://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: https://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 4:07:31 PM UTC+2, Andy Valencia wrote:
> I kinda sorta "left". But I keep an eye, because Forth is an unusual
> technology, and sometimes that's the catalyst for something interesting and
> new.
>
> Sometimes.
I can't blame you. Last time this kind of "ad hominem" attacks went left and right I wrote:

"Ever visited comp.lang.c? They have some weird ideas over there.
They actually TALK about C! They even exchange snippets of actual
code down there. I even suspect they even write programs in C.
What waste of time. They have a standard - which everybody obeys.
And virtually NONE have written their own compiler.

Fortunately, I don't have to expect that here. What a relief!"

And I don't always have the energy to go through all that. In the old days we were actually
discussing systems and code. Nowadays, every remark does not result in better products -
oh no, it's made personal.

Most of the discussions I have about code are offline or taken offline because of this.
It's just a senior citizens home, where the inhabitants are beating each other over their
heads with canes - bickering over the most trivial issues, while losing the battle.

Welcome to Forth. I hope you feel at home.

Hans Bezemer

Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
> Not at all. Take a good look at what I commented on. It is all concerning
> THE PRODUCT. Personal smear is your particular skill and expertise.

If it's something the person is doing non-commercially for fun, it's not
a product, even if they are sharing it with others.

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 8:35:42 PM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Hans Bezemer <the.bee...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Not at all. Take a good look at what I commented on. It is all concerning
> > THE PRODUCT. Personal smear is your particular skill and expertise.
> If it's something the person is doing non-commercially for fun, it's not
> a product, even if they are sharing it with others.

4tH is a product. It's done non-commercially, for fun - and it is shared with others.
No need to get emotional. If I had I'd given it up long ago.

Hans Bezemer

On 10/04/2022 00:49, Hans Bezemer wrote:
>
> Welcome to Forth. I hope you feel at home.

"Don’t ever be the first to stop applauding" - or it's the Forth gulags for you.

Am 05/04/2022 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Bezemer:
> On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 9:16:51 AM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I just had a look at the documentation you did
>> - brilliant and a lot of your time invested.
> Really?! A three page primer? 24 page content - because the rest is
just a lazy code dump?
>
> I don't know what your standards are concerning documentation - but
they're REALLY not mine..
>
> Hans BezemerHi Hans,

I hope to get my cf documentation up to the standard of your 4th docs
eventually, and I take your criticism in a positive way.

> A three page primer?
That was Chuck's documentation, included for your convenience.

> 24 page content -
The 24 pages in the PDF file are intended to give the reasons and
rationale behind colorForth - there is only so much that you can say
about "KISS" without repeating yourself.

> because the rest is just a lazy code dump?
You miss the point here. 99% of my documentation effort can be found in
the code dumps.

I could add Doxygen or ASCIIdoc tags to get a prettier output format,
but it is not a priority at the moment.

I am proud of my documentation for cf2022, because it represents
everything that I have understood about PC hardware and Chuck's software.

BTW I love the fact that 4tH is different. I am thinking of adding
command line to cf202x, and it will probably get compiled on-the-fly,
just like 4th :-)

Cheers,
Howerd

Am 06/04/2022 um 03:18 schrieb dxforth:
> On 6/04/2022 01:58, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 5 April 2022 at 16:41:48 UTC+1, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 4:54:35 PM UTC+2, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Please show us what you have produced
>>>> that comes close to Howerd's work,
>>>> so we can really compare and understand why you are so negative.
>>>> I assume we would like to understand how you define your documentation standard.
>>> I wish you hadn't said that - but had taken my remark seriously: https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/4tH/4tHmanual.pdf
>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>> You're welcome.
>>>
>>> Hans Bezemer
>>
>> Well, I had been there already
>> and looked quickly at the 650+ pages.
>> Let the Forth Community judge about quality of either.
>> Never heard such negativity from Howerd about work others did and were proud of,
>> but there we are.
>
> Howerd is clearly a nice guy and I've certainly found his works useful -
> even if not always for the purposes he intended. OTOH Hans does have a
> point - namely why include a listing in a manual if nobody is going to
> read it. That said I did enjoy reading about Howerd's background even
> if it had little bearing on colorForth. If only my own background were
> as colorful...
>
Hi dxforth,

> Howerd is clearly a nice guy
That's what I like to hear ;-)

> why include a listing in a manual
The listings completely define the software being documented.
You could, theoretically, copy the NASM listing into a file cf2022.nasm,
and the cf2022 source files into cf2022Ref.img (offset by 64K, and
Shannon-Fano encoded). You could then run NASM to produce cf2022.img,
and copy it onto a USB drive. It is my attempt at version control.

> if nobody is going to read it.
I might want to read it, to remind me, later...

> That said I did enjoy reading about Howerd's background
Thanks!
> even if it had little bearing on colorForth
The connection to colorForth is that I am tring to explain why Forth and
colorForth have such a hard time in today's corporate, capitalist world.

> If only my own background were as colorful...
I never thought of my background as being particularly colourful...
Everyone has their own unique story - I would describe mine as
particularly fortunate :-)

> I've certainly found his works useful -
> even if not always for the purposes he intended
I'm intrigued - please explain more.

Thanks for the nice comments :-)

Cheers,
Howerd

Am 05/04/2022 um 19:47 schrieb minf...@arcor.de:
> Howerd schrieb am Montag, 4. April 2022 um 22:44:03 UTC+2:
>> Hi Forthers,
>>
>> I am pleased to announce an updated version of colorForth : cf2022.
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/colorforth/
>> https://github.com/Howerd/colorForth
>> or from my website:
>> https://www.inventio.co.uk/cf2022/
>>
>> Documentation is here :
>> http://www.inventio.co.uk/cf2022/cf2022_colorForth.pdf
>>
>> Readme is here :
>> https://www.inventio.co.uk/cf2022/readme.txt
>>
>> The main difference between cf2019 and cf2022 is that cf2022 has an
>> ASCII font, even though it still uses Shannon-Fano encoding for the cf
>> token names.
>> This is step in the direction of the rest of the programming world.
>>
>> It occurred to me while I was updating cf2022 that I like colorForth
>> because it is as close to the metal as you can get - I see a connection
>> between colorForth and this video : https://youtu.be/gNRnrn5DE58
>> colorForth is the equivalent of the Surface Plate that everything else
>> can be referenced too. Just my 2c worth.
>
> Thanks for keeping cf alive! It is one of the few refreshing aspects in the
> tiny Forth world.
>
> Although I believe that cf's exotic human interface do/did more harm
> to it than good...
>
> BTW I grew up with long assembly listings, so the documentation looks
> fine to me ;-)
>
> em.. thinking back in reality I grew up with tube radios .....
>
Hi minf,
> Thanks for keeping cf alive!
My pleasure :-) colorForth is too pretty to be allowed to die from
digital rot!

> I believe that cf's exotic human interface do/did more harm
Agreed. It is not good to force people to adopt an entirely new user
interface. The problem is that it is less bad than the alternative -
install drivers for QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY keyboards.

> so the documentation looks fine to me ;-)
Thanks!

> em.. thinking back in reality I grew up with tube radios .....
Me too. I used to collect old TVs from our local repair shop by the pram
load - all with valves/tubes. Happy days :-)

Cheers,
Howerd

Am 06/04/2022 um 11:10 schrieb minf...@arcor.de:
> jpit...@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 6. April 2022 um 08:53:36 UTC+2:
>> On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 03:29:09 UTC+1, dxforth wrote:
>>> On 6/04/2022 03:47, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> BTW I grew up with long assembly listings, so the documentation looks
>>>> fine to me ;-)
>>>>
>>>> em.. thinking back in reality I grew up with tube radios .....
>>> IOW book listings are reminiscent of the days pre-floppy and internet.
>>> When folks had the luxury of 'getting it right the first time' because
>>> there was a long time between technology changes.
>> It just shows the type of people you are.
>>
>> If I like the work Howerd invested and post it,
>>
>> then the rest of your comments is ripping his work apart.
>> Does it add anything to his work or post or colorforth?
>>
>> It would be just like me saying:
>> What a waste of everybody' s time for 650 pages that hardly anybody will look at, or use.
>> You probably had your reasons?
>>
>> But you do not have a clue why he did it like this.
>>
>> DEMOTIVATION PURE.
>> And reflect carefully what you post here.
>> Or even if.
>
> Well and good, I certainly had no demotivation in mind. So put your good
> advices elsewhere.
>
> Back to cf: Again kudos to Howerd!
>
> My remark on cf's exotic human interface was intended to perhaps discuss whether
> it could be innovated to be more 'palatable' with normal hardware and for people with
> visual deficiencies. But I guess this is an old discussion.
Hi minf,

> Again kudos to Howerd!
Thanks again!

> it could be innovated to be more 'palatable' with normal hardware
cf2022 should run on any x86 based PC, from a USB stick. No floppies
required.

> and for people with visual deficiencies
cf2022 has a colour-blind mode - just press F4.
The code can then be read without the use of colour.
I can't do much more about age-related visual impairment - Chuck has
already done that with his chunky 16x24 pixel font ;-)

Cheers,
Howerd

Am 07/04/2022 um 17:12 schrieb Wayne morellini:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:37:41 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 10:10:08 UTC+1, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
>>> jpit...@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 6. April 2022 um 08:53:36 UTC+2:
>>>> On Wednesday, 6 April 2022 at 03:29:09 UTC+1, dxforth wrote:
>>>>> On 6/04/2022 03:47, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> BTW I grew up with long assembly listings, so the documentation looks
>>>>>> fine to me ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> em.. thinking back in reality I grew up with tube radios .....
>>>>> IOW book listings are reminiscent of the days pre-floppy and internet.
>>>>> When folks had the luxury of 'getting it right the first time' because
>>>>> there was a long time between technology changes.
>>>> It just shows the type of people you are.
>>>>
>>>> If I like the work Howerd invested and post it,
>>>>
>>>> then the rest of your comments is ripping his work apart.
>>>> Does it add anything to his work or post or colorforth?
>>>>
>>>> It would be just like me saying:
>>>> What a waste of everybody' s time for 650 pages that hardly anybody will look at, or use.
>>>> You probably had your reasons?
>>>>
>>>> But you do not have a clue why he did it like this.
>>>>
>>>> DEMOTIVATION PURE.
>>>> And reflect carefully what you post here.
>>>> Or even if.
>>
>>> Well and good, I certainly had no demotivation in mind. So put your good
>>> advices elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Back to cf: Again kudos to Howerd!
>>>
>>> My remark on cf's exotic human interface was intended to perhaps discuss whether
>>> it could be innovated to be more 'palatable' with normal hardware and for people with
>>> visual deficiencies. But I guess this is an old discussion.
>> Can you please advise how this should be done.
>> It has been posted here based on what you had said.
>> It will stay here for the rest of our lives. And probably longer.
>>
>> Can you recommend a better place where to post it?
>> And waste more of everybody's time?
>
> Color forth editor could be written to display the different colours in a different style, that the user selects. I think Chuck might have mentioned this before, bold underline etc. But, you could also start different words with a lower right ASCII like quarter block graphic, or solid block. Anytime the user uses the normal technique to enable color words, the editor inserts the virtual block, or other representation. So, it's doable fur pie who have color challenged equipment or vision. In my own editor, I wanted to actually use lines to link the depths of loops, to make them easy to track. If we look at forth, what do we need, their is compile time and run time sections, and loops and words (which are non overlapping sections of code, normally :). That is three different in portrayal, under line, bold italic. But colorforth is more than that. With the ascii character set vertical nested loops can be portrayed with vertical and horizontal lines. So, there is an gui like text alternative interface system there.
Hi Wayne,
> could be written to display the different colours in a different style
Been there, done that. cf2022 has colour-blind mode : just press F4 to
toggle this on and off. "red" is replaced by ':', white by '(' and ')' etc.
> use lines to link the depths of loops,
There are also "blue" tokens, that adjust the format of the display.
This allows indenting and finer control of what the code looks like.
"Blue" tokens are invisible by default - press F3 to see them.
> With the ascii character set vertical nested loops can be portrayed
> with vertical and horizontal lines.
cf2022 also has graphics, with lines, filled rectangles etc.
> So, there is an gui like text alternative interface system there.
The next big challenge for me is Version Control, and a big part of that
is how to present the choices to the user - it needs a GUI :-)
Cheers,
Howerd