On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:41:08 -0400
Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
>Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>I've described this whimsical idea...
>>
>>Could this be done?
>>Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
>>doing it?
>
>You know of the Ready Welder?
>
>http://readywelder.com
>

Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:

https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybkkjp7vs.fsf@void.com...

> Ali-GMAW
> spray, pulse, etc

Okay, while everyone's here and interested...

How would I GMAW Ali from a lead-acid battery, like from a truck?

For "spray" the Voltage (and Amps) is "as flat as a billiard table".
So what a battery supplies should be ideal.
At about 200A to 250A and 25V to 26V.
(but Voltage is very sensitive - a fraction of a Volt makes a visible
difference).

That 200A to 250A - a lead-acid battery can supply for a time?
As you might want if you are doing short or test welds in your shed.

The "problem" (?) is the Voltage. Which the supply must have a means
for the welder to control.
A fraction of a volt makes all the difference...

The fully charged voltage of a "24V" battery - or 2 off 12V batteries
- should be 25V to 26.4V (?)

26V is "it".
How would you "top-up" the voltage by 0.5V to 1V?
I assume that for a tiny bit over Voltage a bit of resistance would
"do the trick".

On domestic supply you've got a battery charger running continuously,
which is protected from the welding draw on the battery(s) by the
ability to deliver current of the lead-acid cells...

-------------------------

This is sort of on my plate, though I rarely use over 50A.

Batteries have a source impedance / internal resistance that is a
combination of actual Ohmic resistance in the Lead conductors and the result
of locally depleting the electrolyte faster than it can diffuse into the
plates. The source impedance is unavoidably in series with the load and it
causes the terminal post voltage to drop as current increases.

What I've seen using a carbon pile (variable resistance) tester is the
terminal voltage dropping below 11V at my typical starter currents of about
150A, to start my truck's 2.3L engine. The battery acceptance spec is at
least 10V out at the starter current draw. It's related to the CCA, Cold
Cranking Amps, rating by some mystical marketing formula.

I own a Harbor Freight carbon pile load tester which may have been
discontinued and it's been a good tool to investigate the performance of a
battery under a load of up to 500A, for 15 seconds.
https://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/91000-91999/91129.pdf

They now offer a 1000A model for $199.99. Unlike mine it handles 24V as well
as 12V.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-amp-dc-61224v-carbon-pile-battery-and-system-load-tester-58933.html

This is similar to mine.
https://www.raptorsupplies.co.uk/pd/associated-equip/6034

I take mine with me to shop for used batteries, usually the
replaced-on-schedule AGMs from emergency exit signs. Voltage without a load
doesn't mean much. I put them in jump starter cases to make them safe for
portable use, like running my 12V fridge in the car.

Starting or SLI (starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are optimized for
brief high current followed immediately by full recharge from the running
engine. They have a poor reputation for short lifespan if discharged deeper,
as in a solar power installation. Deep Cycle or Marine batteries can provide
current longer at the expense of higher internal resistance and voltage drop
under load from differently optimized internal construction. I haven't
tested forklift or golf cart batteries.

A battery charged at 14.4V and then loaded will almost immediately drop to
its 12.6V rest voltage minus the internal resistance drop, then slowly
decline as it discharges. If you have a powerful enough charger they can be
operated in the range of 12.6 to 14.4V and serve as an AC ripple filter, as
they do with a vehicle alternator whose output isn't steady, but the
charger shouldn't jump higher when you stop welding, and that's difficult to
design on the cheap.

I converted a 50A buzz box AC welder into a variable voltage battery charger
but it's not an amateur's first project and some components would have been
impractically expensive if I hadn't scrounged them at a ham radio flea
market.

I have no experience with heavy duty truck alternators and designing an
adjustable regulator for one is above my pay grade. A circuit that increased
or decreased the voltage from the battery to the regulator voltage sense
input by an adjustable percentage might fool a fixed regulator into changing
its output, but it would have to be extremely reliable or the alternator
could go to full output without a load and fry the batteries and truck's
electronics. I built a machine for GM that simulated that fault.
-jsw

On 3/23/2023 1:41 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
> Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I've described this whimsical idea...
>>
>> Could this be done?
>> Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
>> doing it?
>
> You know of the Ready Welder?
>
> http://readywelder.com
>

I was just thinking of that. I've never seen one in use.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tvinun$1bpje$1@dont-email.me...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybkkjp7vs.fsf@void.com...

For "spray" the Voltage (and Amps) is "as flat as a billiard table".

----------------------

A Buck-Boost converter can change a variable DC input voltage to an
adjustable regulated output voltage that is higher or lower than the input.
It's possible to create what you want though I haven't seen one that
powerful.
https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-converters/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter-25a-50a

Google didn't bring up a 24V truck regulator with voltage adjustment and
display. They'd be dangerous in uninformed hands. The truck-mounted welders
I see pretty often here all have built-in generators.
https://www.grainger.com/product/MILLER-ELECTRIC-Engine-Driven-Welder-16A175

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...

Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:

https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

------------------------

I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or
regulate the battery voltage.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybkkjp7vs.fsf@void.com...

The "problem" (?) is the Voltage. Which the supply must have a means
for the welder to control.
A fraction of a volt makes all the difference...

The fully charged voltage of a "24V" battery - or 2 off 12V batteries
- should be 25V to 26.4V (?)

26V is "it".
How would you "top-up" the voltage by 0.5V to 1V?
I assume that for a tiny bit over Voltage a bit of resistance would
"do the trick".

---------------------------

A Buck-Boost converter can shift DC voltage up or down by a fraction of a
volt and hold it there as its input battery discharges, so if you can find a
big enough one it should do the trick. One of mine can efficiently convert
12V or 24V to anywhere between 0.6V and 36V. Single purpose Buck (decrease)
or Boost (increase) voltage converters may not operate close enough to their
input voltage.

For portability Lithium batteries offer considerably less weight. The
limiting consideration is that they have lower current capacity which may be
controlled by an internal current limiter, to protect them from damage. They
can be connected in series for more voltage and parallel for more current to
an extent limited by the rating of the internal circuits, since if a fault
occurs the transistor for one may have to handle the current or voltage from
all.

There used to be mechanical motor-generators that converted voltage or
frequency, perhaps you can find one gathering dust. I have one that converts
28V DC to 250V DC for a WW2 aircraft radio, and there was one at work that
converted USA 60Hz to 50Hz to run machines ordered from Europe. I had to
learn and make a machine meet all the safety standards for Norsk Hydro.

On 3/23/2023 6:41 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/23/2023 1:41 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
>> Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I've described this whimsical idea...
>>>
>>> Could this be done?
>>> Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
>>> doing it?
>>
>> You know of the Ready Welder?
>>
>> http://readywelder.com
>>
>
> I was just thinking of that.  I've never seen one in use.
>

We were at Palisades Lake near Idaho falls Idaho probably around
1962-3 , Uncle Bill's boat motor had a problem with the
starter/generator . A loose wire on the commutator threatened to ruin
our weekend of fishing . Dad improvised a carbon arc torch from a set of
jumper cables and the carbons from a couple of D cells , remelted the
solder to reattach the wire and saved the day . The thing that really
stands out about that weekend though was the blueberry pancakes made
with wild berries we kids picked .

--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

> http://readywelder.com
> https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/

I didn't know of these.
Had I searched the Web I'd have not known what I was looking at.
Not my area of expertise.

Thanks everyone on "battery powered spray-Ali-GMAW" idea.

Given that a fraction of a volt is the typical range of adjustment
when spray-MIG'ing Ali, that the voltage is likely to drift around,
from at strike-up to during the weld run; in time with more welding;
etc. suggests you wouldn't bet much on such a "direct coupled to the
batteries" solution working.

This would always be about wanting very exact welds (not some
"emergency" device where anything which gets you going on having some
breakage has done its task - thanks that heartwarming story including
wild blueberries).

If I ever had a spool-gun and a couple of 12V batteries I'd be curious
to see what happens. It can be difficult to guess.
As I've mentioned - the methods which got me my Doctorate shouldn't
have worked at all but there's something going on which as far as I
know no-one yet understands (?), which made them work. And showed what
must happening in commercial welds everywhere.

Okay......

There is a completely different method to get to the same outcome.
I have a Miller TIG (GTAW) inverter which can do Ali.
And finally I have an outbuilding where I can do my things.
I can do proof-of-concepts with TIG.
Anything promising - tips odds in favour of hustling use of industrial
MIG (GMAW) machine.

Thanks everyone.
Rich S

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs9umqr0.fsf@void.com...
....
There is a completely different method to get to the same outcome.
I have a Miller TIG (GTAW) inverter which can do Ali.
And finally I have an outbuilding where I can do my things.
I can do proof-of-concepts with TIG.
Anything promising - tips odds in favour of hustling use of industrial
MIG (GMAW) machine.

Thanks everyone.
Rich S

-----------------

On further reflection I think a Buck-Boost converter or adjustable voltage
regulator offer the most promise, though I don't have a source for either.
The converter could be close to the spool gun to bypass resistive drop in
the battery cables from the truck and give you nearby control and monitoring
of voltage and current, perhaps even record it to compare to welding
properties.

Perhaps they could help or know of someone else:
https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter/

This might be a marketable idea that a company would trade a prototype for,
in exchange for your expert testing and development help. It's beyond me to
design.

I've found several applications for separate raw power sources and
adjustable voltage/current regulators. A buck-boost converter added to my DC
freezer control regulates the DC power brick down to battery float voltage
and limits recharging current after a battery-powered grid outage. A
Schottky blocks backflow. It's a simple home brew DC UPS.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> ...

> On further reflection I think a Buck-Boost converter or adjustable
> voltage regulator offer the most promise, though I don't have a source
> for either. The converter could be close to the spool gun to bypass
> resistive drop in the battery cables from the truck and give you
> nearby control and monitoring of voltage and current, perhaps even
> record it to compare to welding properties.
>
> Perhaps they could help or know of someone else:
> https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter/
>
> This might be a marketable idea that a company would trade a prototype
> for, in exchange for your expert testing and development help. It's
> beyond me to design.
>
> I've found several applications for separate raw power sources and
> adjustable voltage/current regulators. A buck-boost converter added to
> my DC freezer control regulates the DC power brick down to battery
> float voltage and limits recharging current after a battery-powered
> grid outage. A Schottky blocks backflow. It's a simple home brew DC
> UPS.

I was thinking how good if this solution gave the most stable smooth
arc ever known. With being inherently DC... Yes if there was a
regulator which maybe only has to throw away a bit of power through
resistors but adjusts continuously according to a voltage sensor at
the torch. Provided you "topped up" the voltage to just over the arc
voltage.
So that 26V is just less than what's available DC.
However, that's not what you are saying with the "buck-boost".
I'll need to study that suggestion.

!!!
Kuranda UK Ltd
Whaley Bridge is just the other side of the hill at the head of the
valley here where I am in the Peak District / Derbyshire Dales.

On 3/23/2023 8:33 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 3/23/2023 6:41 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 3/23/2023 1:41 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
>>> Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> I've described this whimsical idea...
>>>>
>>>> Could this be done?
>>>> Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
>>>> doing it?
>>>
>>> You know of the Ready Welder?
>>>
>>> http://readywelder.com
>>>
>>
>> I was just thinking of that.  I've never seen one in use.
>>
>
>  We were at Palisades Lake near Idaho falls Idaho probably around
> 1962-3 , Uncle Bill's boat motor had a problem with the
> starter/generator . A loose wire on the commutator threatened to ruin
> our weekend of fishing . Dad improvised a carbon arc torch from a set of
> jumper cables and the carbons from a couple of D cells , remelted the
> solder to reattach the wire and saved the day . The thing that really
> stands out about that weekend though was the blueberry pancakes made
> with wild berries we kids picked .
>

Funny how things like that come to mind. I still recall my grandmother
sending me down the drainage between the road and the various properties
picking wild black berries for a pie. The ditch was a main drainage
many others fed into. You might have seen me from the road if you were
paying close attention, but none of the property owners knew I was
shredding my forearms in blackberry brambles leaning from their property
into the ditch.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybkkiqnln.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> ...

> On further reflection I think a Buck-Boost converter or adjustable
> voltage regulator offer the most promise, though I don't have a source
> for either. The converter could be close to the spool gun to bypass
> resistive drop in the battery cables from the truck and give you
> nearby control and monitoring of voltage and current, perhaps even
> record it to compare to welding properties.
>
> Perhaps they could help or know of someone else:
> https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product/buck-boost-dc-dc-converter/
>
> This might be a marketable idea that a company would trade a prototype
> for, in exchange for your expert testing and development help. It's
> beyond me to design.
>
> I've found several applications for separate raw power sources and
> adjustable voltage/current regulators. A buck-boost converter added to
> my DC freezer control regulates the DC power brick down to battery
> float voltage and limits recharging current after a battery-powered
> grid outage. A Schottky blocks backflow. It's a simple home brew DC
> UPS.

I was thinking how good if this solution gave the most stable smooth
arc ever known. With being inherently DC... Yes if there was a
regulator which maybe only has to throw away a bit of power through
resistors but adjusts continuously according to a voltage sensor at
the torch. Provided you "topped up" the voltage to just over the arc
voltage.
So that 26V is just less than what's available DC.
However, that's not what you are saying with the "buck-boost".
I'll need to study that suggestion.

!!!
Kuranda UK Ltd
Whaley Bridge is just the other side of the hill at the head of the
valley here where I am in the Peak District / Derbyshire Dales.

--------------------------
The output isn't inherently DC any more, but it can be filtered to
approximate DC as well as you can afford.

Buck-boost converters don't need to lose power in resistors, they are the DC
equivalent of a Variac. They convert incoming DC into pulsed AC and then
rectify it back to DC. The pulse's width determines its energy content and
the output voltage. It's a closed loop, active circuitry measures the output
voltage and varies the pulse width to maintain the voltage at where you set
it.

The operation is somewhat similar to a Hydraulic Ram, with energy
oscillating between velocity (current) and pressure (voltage), as in a
pendulum. The inductors L1 and L2 create the electrical equivalent of
inertia, like a car ignition coil that produces high voltage when the points
open.

It's difficult to explain in detail, what we call FM (freakin' magic) . See
if this helps:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter

I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs for
switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may be better
suited to your high current. This one should at least get you in the door
and give you credibility. Knowing the words can help even if you don't know
their meaning, they may assume you do.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 20:33:12 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
>
>Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
>
>https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
>
>Leon Fisk
>Grand Rapids MI
>
>------------------------
>
>I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or
>regulate the battery voltage.
>

Found a patent for it here:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10946466B1/en

Patent was granted in 2021. Not in the mood to study it just now and it
looks like something in your area of expertise :)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvkpsu$1p2o2$1@dont-email.me...

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 20:33:12 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
>
>Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
>
>https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
>
>Leon Fisk
>Grand Rapids MI
>
>------------------------
>
>I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or
>regulate the battery voltage.
>

Found a patent for it here:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10946466B1/en

Patent was granted in 2021. Not in the mood to study it just now and it
looks like something in your area of expertise :)

Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

-------------------------

Apparently it can rapidly pulse the current on/off to reduce its average
value but there's no indication it can reduce or boost the battery voltage.

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:38:26 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvkpsu$1p2o2$1@dont-email.me...
>
>On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 20:33:12 -0400
>"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:tvidk6$19bp5$2@dont-email.me...
>>
>>Looks like there's some more advanced machines too:
>>
>>https://www.ai-mfg.com/mig-welders/
>>
>>Leon Fisk
>>Grand Rapids MI
>>
>>------------------------
>>
>>I don't see any hint that it contains an inverter circuit to boost or
>>regulate the battery voltage.
>>
>
>Found a patent for it here:
>
>https://patents.google.com/patent/US10946466B1/en
>
>Patent was granted in 2021. Not in the mood to study it just now and it
>looks like something in your area of expertise :)
>
>Leon Fisk
>Grand Rapids MI
>
>-------------------------
>
>Apparently it can rapidly pulse the current on/off to reduce its average
>value but there's no indication it can reduce or boost the battery voltage.

I downloaded the manual and the "power" setting is a bit vague on what
it does. Increasing/decreasing the pulse would change power. Whatever
is going on was unique enough to get a patent approved for it.

Batteries recommended are two ODYSSEY 65-PC1750 which are "Odyssey
Drycell Batteries - 12 V, Deep Cycle/Starting, 950 Cold Cranking Amps,
Top Stud, Series 65"

My Millermatic 200 supposedly adjusts from 10-30 vdc in 2 volt
increments. Rated at 60% duty cycle at 28vdc and 200 amps.

I noticed several links to videos but have not looked to see if they
are anything interesting...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/23/2023 12:47 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Ali-GMAW
>> spray, pulse, etc
>
> Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
>
> How would I GMAW Ali from a lead-acid battery, like from a truck?
>
> For "spray" the Voltage (and Amps) is "as flat as a billiard table".
> So what a battery supplies should be ideal.
> At about 200A to 250A and 25V to 26V.

Are you saying that it would be impractical if not impossible with tens
of thousands of mid range commercial fab shop machines that just have a
handful of fixed stops for setting voltage instead of a continuous
variable voltage control, because their control is not good enough to
hit the perfect voltage?

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 3/23/2023 12:47 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Ali-GMAW
>>> spray, pulse, etc
>>
>> Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
>> ...

>
> Are you saying that it would be impractical if not impossible with
> tens of thousands of mid range commercial fab shop machines that just
> have a handful of fixed stops for setting voltage instead of a
> continuous variable voltage control, because their control is not good
> enough to hit the perfect voltage?

For Ali-GMAW an adjustment of about 0.2V will make a perceptible
difference.
0.2V range on about 25V

The entire usable range for steel vertical up FCAW was 0.6V, when I
was in turkey in 2015 on the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project. From those
who chose to keep the heat "low" and weave-in the bead shape to those
who chose to fill the fillet corner and leave it all to the flux/slag
to control the bead shape.

So yes you could has "taps" in some sort of resistance arrangement to
trim down a voltage, but it would need fine steps.
Copper-and-iron GMAW machines have a "coarse" tap knob and a "fine"
tap knob. The fine "splits the difference". It's hard to beat a *good*
copper-and-iron machine. Yes its output will go up and down with the
line voltage. And other variables. But on the other hand the machine
with its taps going into the hard invariant wiring of the transformer
gives a very stable repeatable outcome.

The hypothesised device - if you are not familiar with commercial
welding with everything that you need in-order (you are the welder;
you demand - and they know every other welder would do identically) -
you need stable consistent voltage adjustment to much finer than
1/100th part.

I believe. From my experience. I tend to be out on my own on jobs.
So it's your choice whether you find what I say credible or now.

Hope this is helpful.

Rich S

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> The output isn't inherently DC any more, but it can be filtered to
> approximate DC as well as you can afford.
>
> Buck-boost converters don't need to lose power in resistors, they are
> the DC equivalent of a Variac. They convert incoming DC into pulsed AC
> and then rectify it back to DC. The pulse's width determines its
> energy content and the output voltage. It's a closed loop, active
> circuitry measures the output voltage and varies the pulse width to
> maintain the voltage at where you set it.
>
> The operation is somewhat similar to a Hydraulic Ram, with energy
> oscillating between velocity (current) and pressure (voltage), as in a
> pendulum. The inductors L1 and L2 create the electrical equivalent of
> inertia, like a car ignition coil that produces high voltage when the
> points open.
>
> It's difficult to explain in detail, what we call FM (freakin' magic)
> . See if this helps:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter
>
> I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
> slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
> for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
> be better suited to your high current. This one should at least get
> you in the door and give you credibility. Knowing the words can help
> even if you don't know their meaning, they may assume you do.

Okaaayyyyy!!!

Ahhh, now you explain you are selling me the idea.

So with a battery which at that current is maybe supplying 24V, I
could boost up to 26V and very finely trim in the needed range from
24V to 26V...

Thanks for explaining.
I'll go back to that link.

Mega thanks.
Yes I should get over to Whaley Bridge.
It's less than 1/2hr by car.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs9sjxmk.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
> I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
> slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
> for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
> be better suited to your high current.

Okaaayyyyy!!!

Ahhh, now you explain you are selling me the idea.

So with a battery which at that current is maybe supplying 24V, I
could boost up to 26V and very finely trim in the needed range from
24V to 26V...

Thanks for explaining.
I'll go back to that link.

Mega thanks.
Yes I should get over to Whaley Bridge.
It's less than 1/2hr by car.

-----------------------------

The parts and labor may be at least as expensive as a line-powered inverter
welder of the same output. The buck-boost converters I have for moving
charge between batteries do what you ask in principle but at far lower
current levels. Like birds they may not scale up very much larger.

https://www.droking.com/Power-supply-converter-module-Dc-dc-buck-boost-converter

On 3/25/2023 2:57 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 3/23/2023 12:47 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>>> Ali-GMAW
>>>> spray, pulse, etc
>>>
>>> Okay, while everyone's here and interested...
>>> ...
>
>>
>> Are you saying that it would be impractical if not impossible with
>> tens of thousands of mid range commercial fab shop machines that just
>> have a handful of fixed stops for setting voltage instead of a
>> continuous variable voltage control, because their control is not good
>> enough to hit the perfect voltage?
>
> For Ali-GMAW an adjustment of about 0.2V will make a perceptible
> difference.
> 0.2V range on about 25V
>
> The entire usable range for steel vertical up FCAW was 0.6V, when I
> was in turkey in 2015 on the 3rd Bosphorus Bridge project. From those
> who chose to keep the heat "low" and weave-in the bead shape to those
> who chose to fill the fillet corner and leave it all to the flux/slag
> to control the bead shape.
>
> So yes you could has "taps" in some sort of resistance arrangement to
> trim down a voltage, but it would need fine steps.
> Copper-and-iron GMAW machines have a "coarse" tap knob and a "fine"
> tap knob. The fine "splits the difference". It's hard to beat a *good*
> copper-and-iron machine. Yes its output will go up and down with the
> line voltage. And other variables. But on the other hand the machine
> with its taps going into the hard invariant wiring of the transformer
> gives a very stable repeatable outcome.
>
> The hypothesised device - if you are not familiar with commercial
> welding with everything that you need in-order (you are the welder;
> you demand - and they know every other welder would do identically) -
> you need stable consistent voltage adjustment to much finer than
> 1/100th part.
>
> I believe. From my experience. I tend to be out on my own on jobs.
> So it's your choice whether you find what I say credible or now.
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
> Rich S

Thank you. It is. I want you to understand I am NOT arguing with you
or disputing you. I have plans and I want to perform better in the
future than I did in the past. Your welding experience far out weighs
my own. To the point where my experience is virtually zero by
comparison. Sometimes when I say I have done something I may mean just
once. All I can do is say what I think I know and hope you correct me
with better knowledge and better experience. When I point out how my
very limited experience has differed I am NOT arguing. I am seeking
better knowledge.

I have always struggled (and sometimes succeeded) with MIG aluminum with
my machine even though it was sold as a MIG aluminum machine. It came
with two independent gas solenoids for two independent gas bottles, and
two independent guns. One is a regular MIG stinger, and the other is a
spool gun. You set the welder and pull the trigger on the gun you want
to use. Switching from one to the other is as easy as setting one gun
down and picking up the other. It has fixed taps for voltage, and I
have found most of the time I can get a little better results by running
recommended power settings and adjusting the wire speed. Usually faster
than recommended. Its a low/mid class fab shop commercial welder. A
Miller 212. It is not an industrial welder however.

I have pushed The Miller to its duty cycle, but only when I have had
largish assemblies fully prepped and tacked. The pauses between welds
were measured in the time it took my helmet to go light so I could
reposition on the next joint. Seconds. Generally if I am in the groove
and the welds start going bad I assume I am reaching the duty cycle
limits. I guess this because with several different welders if I let
them cool down for a little while either I am rested enough to weld
better or the machine is cooled off enough to weld better. I deduce
this because two of those are cheaper machines that have a very low duty
cycle. I can see the weld getting worse before the thermal protector
trips. If I push it the thermal protector trips shortly after.
Anyway, the Miler is not a box store consumer machine. You can hit its
duty cycle, but you have to be trying.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:28:49 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>I have always struggled (and sometimes succeeded) with MIG aluminum with
>my machine even though it was sold as a MIG aluminum machine. It came
>with two independent gas solenoids for two independent gas bottles, and
>two independent guns. One is a regular MIG stinger, and the other is a
>spool gun. You set the welder and pull the trigger on the gun you want
>to use. Switching from one to the other is as easy as setting one gun
>down and picking up the other. It has fixed taps for voltage, and I
>have found most of the time I can get a little better results by running
>recommended power settings and adjusting the wire speed. Usually faster
>than recommended. Its a low/mid class fab shop commercial welder. A
>Miller 212. It is not an industrial welder however.

That's a nice welder, looked up the manual for it👍 My voltage switch
only has 6 positions but I can swap a cable plug to High Range and get 6
more (12 total Voltage settings on Millermatic 200). Seems I recall
some overlap in the settings though. It has a better duty cycle than
yours but physically looks almost identical. Had a particular job in
mind when I bought it and sized it big enough to get 100% duty cycle
for the weld settings I wanted to run. And it did that just fine. A lot
of times the fan wouldn't even come on while welding. Kinda nice not
having to listen to a fan drone away...

Never got a spool gun for it though which was on my wish list. Had no
particular need, but just-in-case.

Since picked up an old Solar, which is likely an old Century made buzz
box. Nowadays it's much easier to drag that one out, pick a rod for the
job and get it done ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/26/2023 1:48 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:28:49 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I have always struggled (and sometimes succeeded) with MIG aluminum with
>> my machine even though it was sold as a MIG aluminum machine. It came
>> with two independent gas solenoids for two independent gas bottles, and
>> two independent guns. One is a regular MIG stinger, and the other is a
>> spool gun. You set the welder and pull the trigger on the gun you want
>> to use. Switching from one to the other is as easy as setting one gun
>> down and picking up the other. It has fixed taps for voltage, and I
>> have found most of the time I can get a little better results by running
>> recommended power settings and adjusting the wire speed. Usually faster
>> than recommended. Its a low/mid class fab shop commercial welder. A
>> Miller 212. It is not an industrial welder however.
>
> That's a nice welder, looked up the manual for it👍 My voltage switch
> only has 6 positions but I can swap a cable plug to High Range and get 6
> more (12 total Voltage settings on Millermatic 200). Seems I recall
> some overlap in the settings though. It has a better duty cycle than
> yours but physically looks almost identical. Had a particular job in
> mind when I bought it and sized it big enough to get 100% duty cycle
> for the weld settings I wanted to run. And it did that just fine. A lot
> of times the fan wouldn't even come on while welding. Kinda nice not
> having to listen to a fan drone away...
>
> Never got a spool gun for it though which was on my wish list. Had no
> particular need, but just-in-case.
>
> Since picked up an old Solar, which is likely an old Century made buzz
> box. Nowadays it's much easier to drag that one out, pick a rod for the
> job and get it done ;-)
>

I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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www.avg.com

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyfs9sjxmk.fsf@void.com...
>>
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I mentioned the buck-boost because it can operate with equal or only
>>> slightly higher or lower voltages in and out. There are other designs
>>> for switching power supplies that don't use series capacitors and may
>>> be better suited to your high current.
>>
>> Okaaayyyyy!!!
>>
>> Ahhh, now you explain you are selling me the idea.
>>
>> So with a battery which at that current is maybe supplying 24V, I
>> could boost up to 26V and very finely trim in the needed range from
>> 24V to 26V...
>>
>> Thanks for explaining.
>> I'll go back to that link.
>>
>> Mega thanks.
>> Yes I should get over to Whaley Bridge.
>> It's less than 1/2hr by car.
>>
> -----------------------------
>
> The parts and labor may be at least as expensive as a line-powered
> inverter welder of the same output. The buck-boost converters I have
> for moving charge between batteries do what you ask in principle but
> at far lower current levels. Like birds they may not scale up very
> much larger.
>
> https://www.droking.com/Power-supply-converter-module-Dc-dc-buck-boost-converter

I think I've got it.
The "boost" is the electrical equivalent of a hydraulic ram, as was
earlier said.

Maybe a higher-current device is readily possible.
Something with headroom to say 400A but actually aiming 180A to 250A.
* with 2 car batteries it likely only has to boost
* that boost is only something like 2V or 3V - not a big proportion of
around 24V.

Maybe a much simpler device, but with big high-current components.

The other thing you could do is have three car batteries in series and
only have to "buck".
There you efficiently trade voltage for more current?

I should go to Whaley Bridge - that Co.

I had an electronics company actually come a long way to seek audience
with me once.
That company brought out a new electronic device with one key selling
point being what they built in after seeing how I did what I did. I
post-processed data I'd extracted from their device on a unix
computer. Showing them the scripts, they recognised it,
scribbled-down the math expressions represented by my scripts, and
programmed that arithmetic operation into the embedded
processor. That got true power of a Pulse welding machine.
They helped me loaning the machine so I helped them with the improved
next generation.

So hopefully these folk in Whaley Bridge will talk with me.

> ... I want you to understand I am NOT arguing with you or disputing
> you. ...

That thought never as much as crossed my mind.
I took it as genuinely soliciting insight the entire time.

You are descibing quite a lot of experience of your own which you
already have, it needs to be said...