On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> ...
>>
>> I wasn't good at writing reports because you have to write linearly
>> but I think in multiple dimensions (dementions?). ...
>
> Yes. Exactly.
> The processing and the means of progress is a multidimensional fully
> linked "space". Links are elastic, and they can rearrange on new
> discoveries or errors identified and correct relations identied. But
> it's the idea of every dynamically linked.
> So rendering a text description is "challenging".
>
> This is why you need to have a team of engineers and scientists whose
> brief is to "run with the job". You are always finding your way
> along, the significant guiding of the physical things happening
> (eg. the bridge is now getting its deck) is in the minds of the team,
> and anything written is some after-the-event summary with the key
> concepts coming into perspective to convey benefitting from hindsight.
>
> By the way - major alway present "force" - competitive pressure.
>
> There will be other teams in other places trying to do the same
> thing. So you have to be very efficient to be there first or at least
> in the front runners. So it's a game, and is a fun one. Basically we
> get paid for putting the endeavour up among the leaders where the
> overall endeavour can be remunerative. In return for which we have
> thinking time and a lot of fun.
>
> My Doctorate - there was a fairly determinate way to get to the
> outcome - but it would have taken millions of times more resources
> than I had and someone would have got there first by another means.
> Which I did by an "indeterminate path". I could see there were
> "galloping grounds" - but also "hidden ground" where I had no idea at
> the outset how I was going to cross it. Nothing looked physically
> impossible (that would mean contravening a known Law of the Universe)
> in my instinct, so I simply had to have faith that I would find my way
> through when I arrived at "valleys" as I came upon them and had to
> cross.
>
>
>> ... I began posting here
>> for practice on readers who may criticize or fail to understand but
>> don't sign my paycheck. Thus the long rambling essays.
>>
>> ...
>
> Ha haaaa, brilliant "ploy".
>
> Some of my articles on my website are a kind of diary.
> That's why I don't care if the hard work takes me only to what those
> who work in the field consider fairly much "level 101".
>
> Here's an example
> http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/marine/221231_fhs/221231_froudehs_eg.html
> "Hydrodynamics, Froude number and a clever vessel design"
> I realised there was something special about these vessel - compared
> *only* to all that I had known = yachts, tugboats, etc.
> Having got to the end of that article, I was in a position to
> understand vessels of this type have been around for at least 30
> years and are widely known in the marine world (the balance of all
> positives and constraints gives them a narrow niche application I
> myself had never encountered).
> But for me - that's okay. Doing the article served my purpose
> * it's my "diary entry"
> * I learned along the path of writing it
>
> For learning, this is 100% an exercise in learning
> http://weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html
> "Investigate Torrey Canyon / Pollard Rock wreck circumstances"
> Every question along the way was soliciting information - the most
> significant word-of-mouth.
> I only contributed identifying what the tide was doing at about 0800
> on the 18th of March 1967. Which all on my little owneo I found could
> be had from oceanographic academic collections with tide data. That was
> in my area of "leading" ability. I found the data, then knew how to
> "throw around" that much data and extract selected graphs which make
> sense to anyone. But that was enough to bring in all the guidance
> which was 100% of how I progressed developing that article.
>
>
> Changing tack - I suspect the war in Europe is straining our systems
> and revealing their weaknesses.
> I suspect that 40+years on from "moving into a post-industrial world"
> what looked brilliant before has a significant part of the population
> who instinctively "quack" responses and their minds have only the
> sequential linearity of picking along rote rule sets. Nothing of the
> concurrent multidimensional thinking with all its power but its scary
> uncertainties and the complete unknowns.
> That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
> flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
> is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).
>
> Ha-haa - "wrong angle" - pontificating fantasies of "right and wrong",
> "good vs. evil", etc., will "win the day". Oh nooooo!!!
>
> Thanks for starting an interesting thought process Jim.
> To Jim and all of you, best wishes,
> Rich S
>

I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yatj9is.fsf@void.com...
....
That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).

------------------------

I worked at a series of small companies that all failed for reasons other
than technical ability, typically it was crippling lawsuits from envious
competitors. At the printer company a part of my job was wowing investors
with a display of our ability. When they arrived the boss would ask for a
business card which he gave to me, and I hastily digitized and cleaned up
their logo and printed a stack of paper with their name and logo in color as
a letterhead. In 1985 that was enough to get another quarter or half year of
operating funding.

I drew several complete printer fonts in several sizes, regular, bold and
italic, and logos of many large corporations. I never would have guessed
that I'd someday be making a living as a digital graphic artist. The
computer workstation was a custom lashup based on an HP 1000 minicomputer,
the inspiration for HAL in "2001".

https://www.tonergiant.co.uk/blog/2014/04/what-are-solid-ink-printers/
It omits the early development at Exxon Office Automation and Howtek Corp,
which was the Centronics engineers.

"You can’t print on photo paper / specialty papers."
You definitely could with the Howtek version. It printed (in reverse) on
clear acetate, paper towels, aluminum offset printing plates and crudely on
tee shirts. We had fun tinkering though the place wasn't quite the
engineers' playground as Segway.

After the place folded due to a lawsuit one of the engineers used the molten
plastic inkjet concept to develop 3D printing. Solid ink had piled up deeply
around the ink jet test station. It was too brittle to make practical
objects and we were too busy to pursue it but it gave us ideas.

"Snag" wrote in message news:tves6i$kbdo$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>

I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .

Snag

-------------------------

I don't understand everything I write and I've come to suspect that Bob
Dylan didn't either.

On 3/22/2023 6:29 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tves6i$kbdo$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>
>   I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
> understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
>
> Snag
>
> -------------------------
>
> I don't understand everything I write and I've come to suspect that Bob
> Dylan didn't either.
>

I wouldn't know. He would start to sing, my ears would bleed, and I
would have to leave the area.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> writes:

> On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> ...
>> ...

> I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
> understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .

I learned a lot here on NNTP news.

Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
sci.engr.joining.welding
but that group is more-or-less defunct.
One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
until he died recently essentially from old age.
Things I am puzzling over now I know I could have run to some
resolution in a few messages. But now I have to be "on my own two
feet" and find my way leading in a world where the answers are not
available and the only way is to rediscover knowledge.

rec.crafts.metalworking
had high 90's% off-topic posts then and I kept an eye on it but that
was mainly it.
Now
rec.crafts.metalworking
seems to have become a place for the remaining practitioners to group.

So I think you are in the right place.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yatj9is.fsf@void.com...
> ...
> That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
> flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
> is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).
>
> ------------------------
>
> I worked at a series of small companies that all failed for reasons
> other than technical ability, typically it was crippling lawsuits from
> envious competitors. At the printer company a part of my job was
> wowing investors with a display of our ability. When they arrived the
> boss would ask for a business card which he gave to me, and I hastily
> digitized and cleaned up their logo and printed a stack of paper with
> their name and logo in color as a letterhead. In 1985 that was enough
> to get another quarter or half year of operating funding.
>
> I drew several complete printer fonts in several sizes, regular, bold
> and italic, and logos of many large corporations. I never would have
> guessed that I'd someday be making a living as a digital graphic
> artist. The computer workstation was a custom lashup based on an HP
> 1000 minicomputer, the inspiration for HAL in "2001".
>
> https://www.tonergiant.co.uk/blog/2014/04/what-are-solid-ink-printers/
> It omits the early development at Exxon Office Automation and Howtek
> Corp, which was the Centronics engineers.
>
> "You can’t print on photo paper / specialty papers."
> You definitely could with the Howtek version. It printed (in reverse)
> on clear acetate, paper towels, aluminum offset printing plates and
> crudely on tee shirts. We had fun tinkering though the place wasn't
> quite the engineers' playground as Segway.
>
> After the place folded due to a lawsuit one of the engineers used the
> molten plastic inkjet concept to develop 3D printing. Solid ink had
> piled up deeply around the ink jet test station. It was too brittle to
> make practical objects and we were too busy to pursue it but it gave
> us ideas.

The "lawsuits" angle is interesting to hear of.
Nett - strangled and long-term withered the economy, or in reality was
part of a strong economy, or some "six of one and half a dozen of the
other" state?

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yatj9is.fsf@void.com...
...............
For learning, this is 100% an exercise in learning
http://weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html

----------------------

I've used the RMS Titanic the same way. The basic facts are simple enough
and a survivor observed the aft-most extent of the hull breach. However all
else is a muddle of inconsistent eyewitness testimony despite most having no
reason to lie. The incident and the ship's structure have been reconstructed
in exquisite detail and subjected to several computer modelings, plus James
Cameron used his full scale replica to test theories. I think it is a fine
example of the successes and failures of investigative technique.

The necessities of filming are responsible for some deviations, especially
the need for multiple "takes" without destroying the set. Scenes without
Jack & Rose are very authentic, down to acquiring the correct rug pattern
and vintage lifeboats and functional Welin davits. Scenes with them are
fantasy.

On 3/22/2023 7:51 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Snag <Snag_one@msn.com> writes:
>
>> On 3/22/2023 6:44 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>> ...
>
>> I really enjoy hangin' out where the smart guys are . I may not
>> understand everything they say but still I learn a lot .
>
> I learned a lot here on NNTP news.
>
> Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
> sci.engr.joining.welding
> but that group is more-or-less defunct.
> One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
> deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
> until he died recently essentially from old age.

Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not seen
any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him is a
post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.

> Things I am puzzling over now I know I could have run to some
> resolution in a few messages. But now I have to be "on my own two
> feet" and find my way leading in a world where the answers are not
> available and the only way is to rediscover knowledge.
>

You may find you are becoming the expert, and maybe should consider
being the Ernie in the group when it comes to welding.

I recently found myself in that position on a CNC group on Facebook.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to consider myself an expert, but I saw
some people posting wrong things about VFDs to somebody who was asking
some basic questions. I corrected some things I know from experience
and past help from this group, and the next thing I knew a couple people
were directing secondary questions directly to me. For me the key was
to share would I knew for sure, tell when I didn't know how the magic
worked, and make sure I at least used the right terminology.

> rec.crafts.metalworking
> had high 90's% off-topic posts then and I kept an eye on it but that
> was mainly it.

Yeah, a lot of old RCMers left. I still keep in touch with Lloyd
Sponenburgh on the CamBam forums. He's still making firecrackers in his
shop when he isn't battling hurricanes.

> Now
> rec.crafts.metalworking
> seems to have become a place for the remaining practitioners to group.
>
> So I think you are in the right place.

I'm not ready to give up on this group yet either. If you pay attention
you will see some of the old guys are still reading it and pop up with
an answer from time to time.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

>>
>> Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
>> sci.engr.joining.welding
>> but that group is more-or-less defunct.
>> One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
>> deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
>> until he died recently essentially from old age.
>
> Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
> Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not
> seen any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him
> is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
> ...

Ernie helped a lot yes.

The huge amount of guidance I got was from Randy Zimmerman.
I met him a couple of times in Winter 2008/2009. Flew into Vancouver
to see some family then there on the Island.
He was very very kind to me. I am glad his family is doing well,
because through Randy I owe them so much.
I was just starting Aluminum GMAW during the pandemic when he found he
was terminally ill. He helped me get a long way into that in a short
time.
He died just over a year ago.
This is where I am at on that topic of Ali-GMAW.
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
"Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
I don't have anyone to ask, so I've "had to" design this project which
I believe would enable me to know how a competent conformant Ali-GMAW
weld is done.

>> Things I am puzzling over now I know I could have run to some
>> resolution in a few messages. But now I have to be "on my own two
>> feet" and find my way leading in a world where the answers are not
>> available and the only way is to rediscover knowledge.
>>
>
> You may find you are becoming the expert, and maybe should consider
> being the Ernie in the group when it comes to welding.
>
> I recently found myself in that position on a CNC group on
> Facebook. I'm not knowledgeable enough to consider myself an expert,
> but I saw some people posting wrong things about VFDs to somebody who
> was asking some basic questions. I corrected some things I know from
> experience and past help from this group, and the next thing I knew a
> couple people were directing secondary questions directly to me. For
> me the key was to share would I knew for sure, tell when I didn't know
> how the magic worked, and make sure I at least used the right
> terminology.
> ...

Thanks for the wise words.
I have big gaps in my knowledge and experience.
I do however sometimes "score".

One weekend I rebuilt the railings around the perimeter of the deck of
a big storage barge (flat-topped construction barge) because they'd
been wiped-off in collisions.
I'd got an assistant; the son of the skipper of the crewboat who
though excellent on commercial boats is in reality an enthusiastic
yachtmaster (sailing yachts).
The skipper passed on just how much his son had enjoyed the work.
We'd got a pile of steel, an oxy-propane set for heating and cutting,
my toolchest, a diesel welding machine. And... My "stash" of 6010
rods (cellulosics). Unheard-of in the UK, apart from specialist
pipewelders. I've never seen it done by anyone else.

Well, handrails from scaffold-tube - you can
full-pen. no-prep. butt-weld it (5G) with 6010.
Can only do open-arc with any machine with electronics in it, as I
have known, but open-arc 6010 goes around full-pen'ing as easy as
going round with a mastic-gun.

There's been others.

So maybe I should collect up what I do know and advise.

On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>>>
>>> Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
>>> sci.engr.joining.welding
>>> but that group is more-or-less defunct.
>>> One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
>>> deceased. He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
>>> until he died recently essentially from old age.
>>
>> Was that Ernie Leimkuhler? I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
>> Facebook and web forums. He's on my friend's list, but I have not
>> seen any posts from him in a while. Most recent thing I see from him
>> is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
>> ...
>
> Ernie helped a lot yes.
>
> The huge amount of guidance I got was from Randy Zimmerman.
> I met him a couple of times in Winter 2008/2009. Flew into Vancouver
> to see some family then there on the Island.
> He was very very kind to me. I am glad his family is doing well,
> because through Randy I owe them so much.
> I was just starting Aluminum GMAW during the pandemic when he found he
> was terminally ill. He helped me get a long way into that in a short
> time.
> He died just over a year ago.
> This is where I am at on that topic of Ali-GMAW.
> http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
> "Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
> I don't have anyone to ask, so I've "had to" design this project which
> I believe would enable me to know how a competent conformant Ali-GMAW
> weld is done.

On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:

>The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.

I've been told its the sound of sizzling bacon.

>Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake the weld-pool
around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor by waving the
welding torch (gun) around "weaving".

I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
(3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of course.

> Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.

Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion resistant
(to acids). I would expect that any test with an acid etch would
require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.

Just a side note here: I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so
anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases. I
have done no research or testing. To me this is just hearsay, but it
might be worth a moments consideration.

There is a lot (almost all of it) in your paper that is beyond my small
sphere of welding knowledge, but I still rather enjoyed reading it.
Thank you for sharing.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 23/03/2023 01:02, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Most then for me, in the 1990's and "noughties", was on
>>>> sci.engr.joining.welding
>>>> but that group is more-or-less defunct.
>>>> One of the mentors who gifted me a life which has been good is now
>>>> deceased.  He gave up on s.e.j.w. but we kept in private communication
>>>> until he died recently essentially from old age.
>>>
>>> Was that Ernie Leimkuhler?  I knew he had gone to mostly playing on
>>> Facebook and web forums.  He's on my friend's list, but I have not
>>> seen any posts from him in a while.  Most recent thing I see from him
>>> is a post from January 2022 on Seattle Metal Heads web forum.
>>> ...
>>
>> Ernie helped a lot yes.
>>
>> The huge amount of guidance I got was from Randy Zimmerman.
>> I met him a couple of times in Winter 2008/2009.  Flew into Vancouver
>> to see some family then there on the Island.
>> He was very very kind to me.  I am glad his family is doing well,
>> because through Randy I owe them so much.
>> I was just starting Aluminum GMAW during the pandemic when he found he
>> was terminally ill.  He helped me get a long way into that in a short
>> time.
>> He died just over a year ago.
>> This is where I am at on that topic of Ali-GMAW.
>> http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/welding/weld_qual/221128_alimig/221128_ali_mig_qualctrl.html
>>
>> "Ali MIG/GMAW welding with quality control"
>> I don't have anyone to ask, so I've "had to" design this project which
>> I believe would enable me to know how a competent conformant Ali-GMAW
>> weld is done.
>
> On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>
> >The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.
>
> I've been told its the sound of sizzling bacon.
>
> >Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake the
> weld-pool around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor by
> waving the welding torch (gun) around "weaving".
>
> I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
> (3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
> for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
> overheating and fallout.  I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
> welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of course.
>
> > Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.
>
> Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
> very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion
> resistant (to acids).  I would expect that any test with an acid etch
> would require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.
>
> Just a side note here:  I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so
> anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases. 
> I have done no research or testing.  To me this is just hearsay, but
> it might be worth a moments consideration.
>
> There is a lot (almost all of it) in your paper that is beyond my
> small sphere of welding knowledge, but I still rather enjoyed reading
> it. Thank you for sharing.
>
>
>
I was thinking Ferric Chloride might make a good etchant as I have it to
hand and aluminium reacts quite actively with it at PCB etchant strength
so it would need to be diluted as a weld etchant. My chemistry teacher
in high school mentioned it's the same type of reaction as thermite just
just with Ferric Chloride instead of a ferrous oxide. I first came
across it when I dipped a pencil eraser in the PCB etchant and it
quickly dissolved the aluminium ferrule.

> I was thinking Ferric Chloride might make a good etchant as I have it
> to hand and aluminium reacts quite actively with it at PCB etchant
> strength so it would need to be diluted as a weld etchant. My
> chemistry teacher in high school mentioned it's the same type of
> reaction as thermite just just with Ferric Chloride instead of a
> ferrous oxide. I first came across it when I dipped a pencil eraser in
> the PCB etchant and it quickly dissolved the aluminium ferrule.

Interesting.
Need to try that.
If it works - how good/clear is the etch? - is the question.
(obviously, whatever it does, you want to see the structure of the
weld as clearly as possible).

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ...
>
> On 3/22/2023 4:32 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>
>>The weld goes in with a smooth hiss.
>
> I've been told its the sound of sizzling bacon.

"spray" is definitely a smooth hiss.
On steel there is a "ripping" edge as you squeeze the arc-cone short,
but mainly a hiss
Aluminium - smooth hiss. Back in October I got invited to a welding
place, and I couldn't get rid of a "ripping" sound. Owner seemed to
have hopes he could jump straight to flawless welds, and had bought in
a few expensive Weld Procedure Qualification plates. There was no
pile of offcuts like I'd asked for.
I found the "kitchen-sink method" etchant for Al, and it was clear
that the arc needed to be softer and more spread (normally Al is
associated with the opposite - you aren't getting fusion let alone
penetration).
I don't know what was special about those machines.
Others have gone straight into "clean" spray.

>
>> Basically - you maximise your chances if you don't shake the
>> weld-pool around. Neither by "messing with" the arc "Pulsing" nor
>> by waving the welding torch (gun) around "weaving".
>
> I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
> (3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
> for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
> overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
> welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
> course.

You are rather expert...!
I have never done the "dodging around". Industrial work - always had
pulse available for lower thicknesses. I need to credit you know how
to improvise where I don't.

I have no agenda - I switch to Pulse at less than 10m/min with 1.2mm
wire
[390ipm with 47thou wire]
You apparently could chase spray down to a slightly lower
wire-feed-speed (= current), but with a well-behaving machine which
sprays well and pulses well, that is my change-over threshold.

Plate / sheet metal thicknesses - about same as what you are talking
about.
Well, I have only used "Pulse" Ali-GMAW putting 3mm thickness end-caps
on 5mm wall-thickness structural hollow sections.

Apart from one Ali ladder job I was not happy about.
They had an Ali GTAW shop, but they had 10 welders who could TIG and I
was one of only two who could Ali-GMAW, so they were frightened I
would end up disappearing into the TIG shop if they let me TIG.

>
>> Aluminium is corrosion-resistant, which makes "macro'ing" difficult.
>
> ...

"drain cleaner" is based on a base - ingredients indicate NaOH (sodium
hydroxide).
That is presumably why it works on this Ali.

>
> ...
> Bob La Londe
> CNC Molds N Stuff

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvg8fo$rc56$1@dont-email.me...

Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion resistant
(to acids). I would expect that any test with an acid etch would
require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.

Just a side note here: I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so
anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases. I
have done no research or testing. To me this is just hearsay, but it
might be worth a moments consideration.

Bob La Londe

----------------------------

Aluminum oxide is "amphoteric", meaning it reacts with both acids and bases.

https://melscience.com/US-en/articles/aluminum-and-its-reaction-water/
"If a piece of the met­al is put in hy­drochlo­ric acid, a slow re­ac­tion
takes place, as ini­tial­ly the ox­ide film will be dis­solved from its
sur­face, but then the re­ac­tion speeds up."
Fizzing won't be seen until the bare metal has been exposed.

Atmospheric CO2 will slowly neutralize basic / alkali etchants into
carbonates (baking soda) but acids remain dangerous.

I researched the effect of food acids in meat marinade on slow cooking
vessels and ended up with a Pyrex pot and Inconel temperature probe, though
I can't prove a decent grade of stainless wouldn't have been as good. The
stainless in my Walmart kettles lightly rusts. I had to TIG a rust pit leak
on one of them.

> Amphoteric

Yes.
"Official" etchants sounded scary - quite concentrated acids including
hydroflouric. No way.
But know Al is amphoteric, so tried the alkalis/bases route and "hit
lucky" with drain-cleaner. You can get it whenever and wherever you
need it, so haven't "refined" the method. You broadly know what the
macro etch is supposed to like - and expect to see something like that
if you run round the builder's merchant and source the drain-cleaner.

On 3/23/2023 1:09 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
>> (3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
>> for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
>> overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
>> welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
>> course.

> You are rather expert...!

Oh, I didn't say I was good at it.

I'd like to get better, and if I can't with the MIG welder I have I
guess I'll have to learn to TIG weld aluminum. I have some large
projects I "want" to do, but if I have to learn to use TIG and go slower
I will. Just means I might not finish them while I am still young
enough to use them.

I started reading a book some years back by a guy named Stephen F
Pollard about building aluminum boats. I was hoping for more in the
welding portions of the book, but there was not as much as I would like.
He basically repeated what this group and SEJW had told me in the
past. CLEAN & PREP & CLEAN SOME MORE. The other thing he emphasized
was a particular order of processes. Its not always practical of course
depending on what you are welding on a boat, and if you are building
from scratch or doing repairs to a completed assembly. He said you
should always clean and prep, weld one side, then back grind, and weld
the other side. I have certainly seen (and owned) a few small (16-17ft
(4.8m-5.2m)) welded aluminum boats that were built by commercial
builders. My best guess is that they were all pulse MIG welded from one
side only. (They have a sort of stack of dimes look, but not as uniform
as a skilled TIG welder.) Some welds of course would be nearly
impossible to back grind and weld, but most they just welded from one
side. I have to assume Pollard was mostly building larger boats. Small
trawlers, tugs, etc. The weld, back grind and back weld might make
sense on 1/4in (6.35mm) or thicker plate, but full penetration has never
been an issue for me with .080 to .125 inch (2mm to 3.2mm) these
utility/fishing boats are made out of. The issue for me has always been
not totally annihilating the base material.

If I could get the welds to work out like Pollard suggests with the
thinner sheet that might be good for me because My projects would be
planing hulls, and being able to go back and grind the first side flat
would be ideal.

Pollards Book.
Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Aluminum-Complete-Guide-Amateur/dp/0071443185
Thrift Books:
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/boatbuilding-with-aluminum_stephen-f-pollard/329799/?resultid=faabf6f3-33de-4ced-a715-5a71c043d887#isbn=0071443185

The other thing that sets me at a bit of a quandry to reconcile with
your paper is when welding thick aluminum to thin aluminum. I always
had to preheat the thicker piece, and I still had to concentrate on the
thick piece with a slightly weave or more of a quiver to tie in the
thinner piece. AGAIN, I am not saying I am good at it. This would be
counter I think to the bit about not whipping or weaving. To just lay
down a smooth straight bead. I have observed a smooth straight FAST
bead tends to work best when welding two similar size pieces together.

I am absolutely not saying I am good about any of this or that my
thoughts come from a mind of greatness. I'm not even arguing with any
of your points. I am just trying to better understand how things work
so I can practice better technique.

Snag, sorry about hijacking your thread.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 3/23/2023 4:10 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tvg8fo$rc56$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Its my understanding that it is the aluminum oxide coating that forms
> very quickly in room temperature air which is highly corrosion resistant
> (to acids).  I would expect that any test with an acid etch would
> require mechanical cleaning immediately prior to exposure.
>
> Just a side note here:  I have boon told aluminum oxide, and more so
> anodized aluminum is very acid resistant, but may dissolve in bases.  I
> have done no research or testing.  To me this is just hearsay, but it
> might be worth a moments consideration.
>
> Bob La Londe
>
> ----------------------------
>
> Aluminum oxide is "amphoteric", meaning it reacts with both acids and
> bases.
>
> https://melscience.com/US-en/articles/aluminum-and-its-reaction-water/
> "If a piece of the met­al is put in hy­drochlo­ric acid, a slow
> re­ac­tion takes place, as ini­tial­ly the ox­ide film will be
> dis­solved from its sur­face, but then the re­ac­tion speeds up."
> Fizzing won't be seen until the bare metal has been exposed.
>
> Atmospheric CO2 will slowly neutralize basic / alkali etchants into
> carbonates (baking soda) but acids remain dangerous.
>
> I researched the effect of food acids in meat marinade on slow cooking
> vessels and ended up with a Pyrex pot and Inconel temperature probe,
> though I can't prove a decent grade of stainless wouldn't have been as
> good. The stainless in my Walmart kettles lightly rusts. I had to TIG a
> rust pit leak on one of them.
>

We have had very good luck with stainless pots from the hawker at the
carnival. Yeah, no kidding. Its been 10+ years since we started using
mostly KitchenCraft made by Americraft for all of our stainless
cookware. I would have just walked on by, but my wife insisted. Happy
wife and all that... The stuff is expensive. It makes WalMart cookware
seem almost free by comparison, but I admit its good stuff.

Tomatoes are certainly hard on cast iron cookware, and probably on low
grade stainless. I think a few other nightshade related fruits may also
be. Eggplant, tomatillos, etc. My wife uses tomatillos a lot to make
sauces using the stainless cookware mentioned above with no issues.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 3/23/2023 6:28 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Amphoteric
>
> Yes.
> "Official" etchants sounded scary - quite concentrated acids including
> hydroflouric. No way.
> But know Al is amphoteric, so tried the alkalis/bases route and "hit
> lucky" with drain-cleaner. You can get it whenever and wherever you
> need it, so haven't "refined" the method. You broadly know what the
> macro etch is supposed to like - and expect to see something like that
> if you run round the builder's merchant and source the drain-cleaner.
>
>

Drain cleaner (also sometimes sold as root killer) is popular for a lot
of projects other than their label indicates. Home anodizing often uses
it for the "desmut" process prior to anodizing.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 3/23/2023 11:43 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/23/2023 1:09 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
>>> (3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
>>> for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
>>> overheating and fallout.  I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
>>> welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
>>> course.
>
>> You are rather expert...!
>
> Oh, I didn't say I was good at it.
>
> I'd like to get better, and if I can't with the MIG welder I have I
> guess I'll have to learn to TIG weld aluminum.  I have some large
> projects I "want" to do, but if I have to learn to use TIG and go slower
> I will.  Just means I might not finish them while I am still young
> enough to use them.
>
> I started reading a book some years back by a guy named Stephen F
> Pollard about building aluminum boats.  I was hoping for more in the
> welding portions of the book, but there was not as much as I would like.
>  He basically repeated what this group and SEJW had told me in the
> past.  CLEAN & PREP & CLEAN SOME MORE.  The other thing he emphasized
> was a particular order of processes.  Its not always practical of course
> depending on what you are welding on a boat, and if you are building
> from scratch or doing repairs to a completed assembly.  He said you
> should always clean and prep, weld one side, then back grind, and weld
> the other side.  I have certainly seen (and owned) a few small (16-17ft
> (4.8m-5.2m)) welded aluminum boats that were built by commercial
> builders.  My best guess is that they were all pulse MIG welded from one
> side only. (They have a sort of stack of dimes look, but not as uniform
> as a skilled TIG welder.)  Some welds of course would be nearly
> impossible to back grind and weld, but most they just welded from one
> side.  I have to assume Pollard was mostly building larger boats.  Small
> trawlers, tugs, etc.  The weld, back grind and back weld might make
> sense on 1/4in (6.35mm) or thicker plate, but full penetration has never
> been an issue for me with .080 to .125 inch (2mm to 3.2mm) these
> utility/fishing boats are made out of.  The issue for me has always been
> not totally annihilating the base material.
>
> If I could get the welds to work out like Pollard suggests with the
> thinner sheet that might be good for me because My projects would be
> planing hulls, and being able to go back and grind the first side flat
> would be ideal.
>
> Pollards Book.
> Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Aluminum-Complete-Guide-Amateur/dp/0071443185
>
> Thrift Books:
> https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/boatbuilding-with-aluminum_stephen-f-pollard/329799/?resultid=faabf6f3-33de-4ced-a715-5a71c043d887#isbn=0071443185
>
>
> The other thing that sets me at a bit of a quandry to reconcile with
> your paper is when welding thick aluminum to thin aluminum.  I always
> had to preheat the thicker piece, and I still had to concentrate on the
> thick piece with a slightly weave or more of a quiver to tie in the
> thinner piece.  AGAIN, I am not saying I am good at it.  This would be
> counter I think to the bit about not whipping or weaving.  To just lay
> down a smooth straight bead.  I have observed a smooth straight FAST
> bead tends to work best when welding two similar size pieces together.
>
> I am absolutely not saying I am good about any of this or that my
> thoughts come from a mind of greatness.  I'm not even arguing with any
> of your points.  I am just trying to better understand how things work
> so I can practice better technique.
>
> Snag, sorry about hijacking your thread.
>
>

Oh don't be ! This is usenet , and whither a thread goeth , there
will it be . I've learned a lot from threads that went a different
direction midway . This one has been very informative ...
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvi06g$17l5l$2@dont-email.me...

On 3/23/2023 4:10 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> I researched the effect of food acids in meat marinade on slow cooking
> vessels and ended up with a Pyrex pot and Inconel temperature probe,
> though I can't prove a decent grade of stainless wouldn't have been as
> good. The stainless in my Walmart kettles lightly rusts. I had to TIG a
> rust pit leak on one of them.
>

We have had very good luck with stainless pots from the hawker at the
carnival. Yeah, no kidding. Its been 10+ years since we started using
mostly KitchenCraft made by Americraft for all of our stainless
cookware. I would have just walked on by, but my wife insisted. Happy
wife and all that... The stuff is expensive. It makes WalMart cookware
seem almost free by comparison, but I admit its good stuff.

Tomatoes are certainly hard on cast iron cookware, and probably on low
grade stainless. I think a few other nightshade related fruits may also
be. Eggplant, tomatillos, etc. My wife uses tomatillos a lot to make
sauces using the stainless cookware mentioned above with no issues.

Bob La Londe
------------------------------
I use my mother's 12 quart Farberware stockpot for the stew after simmering
the marinated cheap cuts in her Pyrex pot. Almost every household item I own
was inherited, since she took care of older relatives and then disposed of
their belongings to my sister and me, she having first choice since I didn't
much care. We both built a barn to store the excess. I'm still using Mom's
first microwave, with a wind-up timer.

The paring knife I use most was a free sample from a peddler with a
temporary in-store kiosk. I acted the sympathetic listener and he spilled
his life history in electronics to me. That happens fairly often and it
surprises me how many people selling crafts or second-hand stuff bailed out
of high tech. They claim to value the independence and self reliance and
being outdoors. I tasted it one between-jobs summer, working a Renaissance
Faire, and admit its attraction though I went back into the lab at Mitre.

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 13:42:52 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>The paring knife I use most was a free sample from a peddler with a
>temporary in-store kiosk. I acted the sympathetic listener and he spilled
>his life history in electronics to me. That happens fairly often and it
>surprises me how many people selling crafts or second-hand stuff bailed out
>of high tech. They claim to value the independence and self reliance and
>being outdoors. I tasted it one between-jobs summer, working a Renaissance
>Faire, and admit its attraction though I went back into the lab at Mitre.

Many people misunderstand the profit gained in achieving happiness ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 3/23/2023 1:09 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> I always thought pulse MIG for aluminum (generally I weld .125in
>>> (3.175mm) and thinner) would help with controlling heat input allowing
>>> for longer weld beads without having to skip around to prevent
>>> overheating and fallout. I have always skipped around doing "stitch"
>>> welding as I do not have a pulse MIG. I don't "know" anything of
>>> course.
>
>> You are rather expert...!
>
> Oh, I didn't say I was good at it.
>
> I'd like to get better, and if I can't with the MIG welder I have I
> guess I'll have to learn to TIG weld aluminum. I have some large
> projects I "want" to do, but if I have to learn to use TIG and go
> slower I will. Just means I might not finish them while I am still
> young enough to use them.
>
> I started reading a book some years back by a guy named Stephen F
> Pollard about building aluminum boats. I was hoping for more in the
> welding portions of the book, but there was not as much as I would
> like. He basically repeated what this group and SEJW had told me in
> the past. CLEAN & PREP & CLEAN SOME MORE. The other thing he
> emphasized was a particular order of processes. Its not always
> practical of course depending on what you are welding on a boat, and
> if you are building from scratch or doing repairs to a completed
> assembly. He said you should always clean and prep, weld one side,
> then back grind, and weld the other side. I have certainly seen (and
> owned) a few small (16-17ft (4.8m-5.2m)) welded aluminum boats that
> were built by commercial builders. My best guess is that they were
> all pulse MIG welded from one side only. (They have a sort of stack of
> dimes look, but not as uniform as a skilled TIG welder.) Some welds
> of course would be nearly impossible to back grind and weld, but most
> they just welded from one side. I have to assume Pollard was mostly
> building larger boats. Small trawlers, tugs, etc. The weld, back
> grind and back weld might make sense on 1/4in (6.35mm) or thicker
> plate, but full penetration has never been an issue for me with .080
> to .125 inch (2mm to 3.2mm) these utility/fishing boats are made out
> of. The issue for me has always been not totally annihilating the
> base material.
>
> If I could get the welds to work out like Pollard suggests with the
> thinner sheet that might be good for me because My projects would be
> planing hulls, and being able to go back and grind the first side flat
> would be ideal.
>
> Pollards Book.
> Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Aluminum-Complete-Guide-Amateur/dp/0071443185
> Thrift Books:
> https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/boatbuilding-with-aluminum_stephen-f-pollard/329799/?resultid=faabf6f3-33de-4ced-a715-5a71c043d887#isbn=0071443185
>
> The other thing that sets me at a bit of a quandry to reconcile with
> your paper is when welding thick aluminum to thin aluminum. I always
> had to preheat the thicker piece, and I still had to concentrate on
> the thick piece with a slightly weave or more of a quiver to tie in
> the thinner piece. AGAIN, I am not saying I am good at it. This
> would be counter I think to the bit about not whipping or weaving. To
> just lay down a smooth straight bead. I have observed a smooth
> straight FAST bead tends to work best when welding two similar size
> pieces together.
>
> I am absolutely not saying I am good about any of this or that my
> thoughts come from a mind of greatness. I'm not even arguing with any
> of your points. I am just trying to better understand how things work
> so I can practice better technique.
>
> Snag, sorry about hijacking your thread.
>
>
> --
> Bob La Londe
> Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not
> a real machinist

I'm running towards the limit of my ability to "profess".

Different thicknesses caused unequal fillet legs, as those welds had
restricted access and I couldn't tip the torch off 45deg to correct
for that.
Other than that, no other effects as I saw.
Was about 230A and 25.something Volts.

I never more than wire-brushed my Ali for these Ali-GMAW fillet welds.

They insist you must only use stainless wire brushes on Ali - but they
would have none and no way I'm bringing my own onto site. I believe
stainless wire brush is better - but anything is better than welding
over weeks, months and years of oxide build up.

Back-grind - that's for full-pen. butt welds?
Makes sense.

I've said my piece, especially with that article.
You pick your best way forward.

BTW - the TIG'ers were making things like fuel tanks from 3mm sheet.
Mainly outside-corner joints. Absolutely the process to use for that
application. It's a languid process, at the unmissable benefit that
you get pressure-tight first-time every time.

I've seen "the unmissable advantage of TIG" applied at Ali 25mm
thickness T-fillet and it looked to me like a farce.
Ali-GTAW for sheet / thick-sheet thicknesses;
Ali-GMAW for plate.
As it seems to me.

> Ali-GMAW
> spray, pulse, etc

Okay, while everyone's here and interested...

How would I GMAW Ali from a lead-acid battery, like from a truck?

For "spray" the Voltage (and Amps) is "as flat as a billiard table".
So what a battery supplies should be ideal.
At about 200A to 250A and 25V to 26V.
(but Voltage is very sensitive - a fraction of a Volt makes a visible
difference).

That 200A to 250A - a lead-acid battery can supply for a time?
As you might want if you are doing short or test welds in your shed.

The salient feature of lead-acid batteries compared to other battery
types is the ability to supply a high peak current - like for a
starter-motor...

The Amps is regulated by the wire-feed-speed. No other control needed
for Amps.

You'd probably have a spool-gun, by the way.

[the idea comes from apparently for steel a "gasless FCAW" /
"innershield" that a professional welder eg. going up in a
"cherry-picker" can have a spool-gun and a pair of 12V batteries in
series]

The "problem" (?) is the Voltage. Which the supply must have a means
for the welder to control.
A fraction of a volt makes all the difference...

The fully charged voltage of a "24V" battery - or 2 off 12V batteries
- should be 25V to 26.4V (?)

26V is "it".
How would you "top-up" the voltage by 0.5V to 1V?
I assume that for a tiny bit over Voltage a bit of resistance would
"do the trick".

What you are avoiding is (* 250 26 1e-3) 6.5 kW of arc power,
which would be (* 250 26 1e-3 2) 13.0 kW at the wall-socket for a
copper-and-iron GMAW machine.
Then you have a big machine to store for only little jobs.

Yes any commercial welding at a customer site and you have a big
industrial CV&Pulse 3phase machine - but that's not what's being
considered here.

This is about turning-up with a trialed and proven welding procedure
specification. Yes they can pay $lots for qualifying to OSI54321.
But where chapter-and-verse you've done test-welds mimicking the
customer welds and you know exactly where you are going with it.
You already have
* visual
* macro
* breaks or bends
* tensile strength
* (even a sneaked For Information Only radiograph but with the Image
Quality Indicators in-view, thanks to someone you know)

Or the task is doing an Ali structure of your own.

On domestic supply you've got a battery charger running continuously,
which is protected from the welding draw on the battery(s) by the
ability to deliver current of the lead-acid cells...

I've described this whimsical idea...

Could this be done?
Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
doing it?

(* (/ 24e0 2) 2.1) 25.200000000000003
(* (/ 24e0 2) 2.2) 26.400000000000002

On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 19:47:35 +0000
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

<snip>
>I've described this whimsical idea...
>
>Could this be done?
>Or, comprehending what the objective is, is there a better way of
>doing it?

You know of the Ready Welder?

http://readywelder.com

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI