On 3/26/2023 3:52 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> ... I want you to understand I am NOT arguing with you or disputing
>> you. ...
>
> That thought never as much as crossed my mind.
> I took it as genuinely soliciting insight the entire time.
>
> You are descibing quite a lot of experience of your own which you
> already have, it needs to be said...

I try to get as much out of it as I can anyway. Thanks

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...

The other thing you could do is have three car batteries in series and
only have to "buck".
There you efficiently trade voltage for more current?

-------------------------

That is a very good idea, you could have 24V from the standard truck
electrical system with a high current alternator, and an isolated 24V to 12V
converter to keep the third battery charged. The batteries could be allowed
to droop while welding without affecting the 26V output as long as the
alternator and converter can keep up with the duty cycle, which I think
would have to be low to keep the cost down, otherwise there may be little or
no advantage over a portable engine-powered welder.

https://www.powerstream.com/dcdc-extreme-2412.htm
"These converters are fully isolated, so will work in positive ground or
negative ground applications."
">1500 volts isolation from case to any terminal, >1500 Volts isolation
input to output."
So there shouldn't be a problem with connecting the negative side of the
output to the positive side of the input, to boost 24V to 36V. That would be
a short circuit if the output isn't isolated.

I haven't given up on the 24V 400A alternator with adjustable regulator but
right now I'm busy doing my taxes and researching who to vote for tomorrow.
-jsw

> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...
>> ...

> ... and researching who to vote for tomorrow.

Don't envy you with that task.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lya5zyfgt4.fsf@void.com...

> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

>> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysfdr5dy1.fsf@void.com...
>> ...

> ... and researching who to vote for tomorrow.

Don't envy you with that task.

----------------------

The tax-and-spenders know better than to admit it.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
>the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
>ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.

I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.

My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:

> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
>>I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
>>the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
>>ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
>
> I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
> well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
> inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
> give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
>
> My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
> amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)

I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
(all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
"fly-by-wire" electronics?)

Good inverters can run 6010's open-arc but cannot cope with pushing
the rod into the joint - as you might want to do "keyholing the root"
- as I have experienced. I hear some $thousands heavy-duty inverters
can...

I've had a tranformer-rectifier setup which would "keyhole" perfectly
with 6010. But that isn't the common experience either??

AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
No arc-blow, being AC.
But 6013's only.
I wish doing barges someone would get a big transformer and some big
7028's which will burn AC and find how that works. Because then you
can be arc'ing-up minutes from the start of your shift and you don't
have to stop for wind and rain. You'd think they didn't have a care
in the world and money rained down on them like the physical rain from
the skys the way I've experienced the goings-on.

Regards,

On 3/27/2023 8:50 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
>> I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
>> the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
>> ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
>
> I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
> well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's.

I can't say as I have ever run 6010, but a lot of welders are noted to
struggle with it. I seem to recall before he melted down his channel
with a political manifesto Chucke2009 used to test everything with 6010.

Speculation that it is
> inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
> give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
>

Me either, but I'm more likely to be running 7018, nickle 55, or maybe
6013 in that order. I like the way 7018 runs. Even on AC it does fine.

> My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
> amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)

I've got an old Lincoln 225 AC tombstone. Its okay with 3/32 rod for
maybe 8-9 inches of full height/width bead at a shot. Then it needs to
cool off. Not having a thermal protector I only know this because the
weld destabilizes if I push it any further. I've never successfully run
heavier rod, but the last time I tried I had a lot less knowledge and
experience. Well, I have run 1/8 inch rod, but it was marginal in my
opinion. 3/32 rod is its sweet spot.

The last time I used the Lincoln 225 was not for stick welding. I was
playing with the idea of using it as a power source with a Miller TIG
converter to do crude AC TIG welding. Before you say anything. The
Miller unit manual clearly says you can use it with either an AC or DC
power supply. Its got a relay assembly that supposedly gives a sort of
high frequency start, but I was never able to get that to work. I was
able to get it to scratch start. I never did any actual welds with it.
Given the limited controls I decided it was harder than I wanted to work
to learn to TIG weld. That's when I bought the AHP. The AHP has way to
many controls, but its capable so far.

If I decided I do need to fire up the Lincoln 225 again I'll have to put
different connectors on the cables. I had cut them off and put on
terminals to connect to the Miller TIG converter. The cabes are
terminated inside the case. The Miller Tig converter is now in my
scrap/recycle stack out back of the shop.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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On 3/27/2023 9:34 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
>>> the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
>>> ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
>>
>> I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
>> well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
>> inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
>> give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
>>
>> My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
>> amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
>
> I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
> (all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
> CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
> "fly-by-wire" electronics?)

The AHP TIG200(xx) is not a true multi process. It does not do CV
processes like MIG. Strictly CC TIG/Stick. I always struggled with the
idea of mixing different controls myself.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 27/03/2023 17:34, Richard Smith wrote:
> Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 14:47:12 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>>> I haven't burned a stick in a few years, but if I do I'll probably use
>>> the AHP inverter (AC/DC Pulse Tig and Stick) machine for it. I don't
>>> ever want to dig the AC cracker box out from under the table again.
>> I've read/heard that some of those multi-process machines don't work so
>> well burning DC rods. Especially 6010's. Speculation that it is
>> inherent to the design/multi-process limitations... I'd probably still
>> give it a try but wouldn't be surprised if it didn't go well.
>>
>> My old buzz box is just AC. Runs really nice when you manage to get the
>> amps for the rod and what you're working on set right ;-)
> I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
> (all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
> CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
> "fly-by-wire" electronics?)
>
> Good inverters can run 6010's open-arc but cannot cope with pushing
> the rod into the joint - as you might want to do "keyholing the root"
> - as I have experienced. I hear some $thousands heavy-duty inverters
> can...
>
> I've had a tranformer-rectifier setup which would "keyhole" perfectly
> with 6010. But that isn't the common experience either??
>
>
> AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
> Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
> But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
> industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
> No arc-blow, being AC.
> But 6013's only.
> I wish doing barges someone would get a big transformer and some big
> 7028's which will burn AC and find how that works. Because then you
> can be arc'ing-up minutes from the start of your shift and you don't
> have to stop for wind and rain. You'd think they didn't have a care
> in the world and money rained down on them like the physical rain from
> the skys the way I've experienced the goings-on.
>
> Regards,

I've got a 180A Pickhill oil cooled welder and have kept it even though
I have a Hitachi AC/DC inverter TIG machine that'll do MMA. I just like
the old oil cooled thing and it's quiet and I typically use it on 80V
OCV as I find once the 6013 rods are struck up on some scrap I can just
put them down on what I want to weld and they'll just light up. The only
other rods I've run are some hard facing rods to repair an anvil
hardface and no problems running those with the Pickhill on AC. I also
have an old Max-Arc rectifier for it and add on a Max-Arc TIG HF unit
which is what I used before I got the Hitachi. I asked about oil cooled
welders in the US years ago on RCM or SEJW and the answer that came back
was the don't have them only air cooled.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:34:29 +0100
Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:

<snip>
>AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
>Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
>But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
>industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
>No arc-blow, being AC.
>But 6013's only.

Odd numbers are AC rods (6011, 6013...). Even numbers are DC (6010,
7018...) per spec. Your mileage will vary if you run them else wise.
I'd say the most common AC rod used by us amateurs over here is 6011 in
1/8 inch, also known as Farmer Rod.

A lot of the Pro's avoid 6013 because it's hard to see the puddle and
prone to worm holes. Made me feel a lot better when I heard that
because I'd always had trouble seeing the puddle. Thought it was just
"me" and I sucked...

Now 7018 had always been a DC only rod but I've noticed in more recent
years some manufactures have added AC settings for it too. Haven't
studied it much... I don't know if it still has the same low hydrogen
specs or the manufactures know it sells well and didn't want to miss
out selling to us only AC machine guys.

I've used 6011 x 1/16 & 1/8", 6013 x 1/8" and an odd Forney "Noma-Cast"
x 1/8" on a cast iron repair. Noma is orders of magnitude cheaper to buy
than nickle rod. It was a freebie job for a good neighbor and held way
better than expected.

If you have an Instagram account go lookup @icweld. Amazing 7018 &
arc-gouging repairs on all sorts of heavy equipment. Try this without
Instagram:

https://imginn.com/icweld/

I quit keeping up with him (and several others) a couple years ago after
Facebook took over and cutoff access to non-users. This was where
(Instagram) a lot of GOOD welders hung out and swapped stories/helped
each other out...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/27/2023 12:02 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:34:29 +0100
> Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> AC buzzbox - solely 6013's?
>> Can be quite sweet in a narrow range.
>> But a big hundreds-of-kg tranformer - typically the oil-cooled
>> industrial machines - what a sweet arc at all Amps.
>> No arc-blow, being AC.
>> But 6013's only.
>
> Odd numbers are AC rods (6011, 6013...). Even numbers are DC (6010,
> 7018...) per spec. Your mileage will vary if you run them else wise.
> I'd say the most common AC rod used by us amateurs over here is 6011 in
> 1/8 inch, also known as Farmer Rod.
>
> A lot of the Pro's avoid 6013 because it's hard to see the puddle and
> prone to worm holes. Made me feel a lot better when I heard that
> because I'd always had trouble seeing the puddle. Thought it was just
> "me" and I sucked...
>
> Now 7018 had always been a DC only rod but I've noticed in more recent
> years some manufactures have added AC settings for it too.

I ran it on AC a long time ago because it ran decent. One of the weld
channels has said its always been AC/DC rod. Could have been Welding
Tips & Tricks or Weld.com. I watch them both when I have my morning
coffee. I had a buddy tell me many years ago it was DC only when we
were working on a trailer (converting from boat to flatbed) to go get a
scissor lift in Denver I had purchased on-line. Anyway, he lectured me
about it, so I went and got the box. It said E7018 and listed AC and
DC. Later I noticed some boxed labeled 7018AC. I asked around about
what the difference was. The most knowledgeable welding people I knew
at the time said, "the label." I sold that scissor lift a few years
ago, but I still have the trailer. It hasn't broken yet.

Haven't
> studied it much... I don't know if it still has the same low hydrogen
> specs or the manufactures know it sells well and didn't want to miss
> out selling to us only AC machine guys.

It welds well too.

> > I've used 6011 x 1/16 & 1/8", 6013 x 1/8" and an odd Forney "Noma-Cast"
> x 1/8" on a cast iron repair. Noma is orders of magnitude cheaper to buy
> than nickle rod. It was a freebie job for a good neighbor and held way
> better than expected.

I'll have to check that out. I have a small package of nickle 55 I
bought when a local store was dumping all of one brand to go with
another brand. I guard it like its gold. Might be nice to have another
option... Well stainless works too, but I doubt its approved for
anything. LOL.

>
> If you have an Instagram account go lookup @icweld. Amazing 7018 &
> arc-gouging repairs on all sorts of heavy equipment. Try this without
> Instagram:
>
> https://imginn.com/icweld/
>
> I quit keeping up with him (and several others) a couple years ago after
> Facebook took over and cutoff access to non-users. This was where
> (Instagram) a lot of GOOD welders hung out and swapped stories/helped
> each other out...
>

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:05:19 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

>On 3/27/2023 12:02 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 17:34:29 +0100

>> Now 7018 had always been a DC only rod but I've noticed in more recent
>> years some manufactures have added AC settings for it too.
>
>I ran it on AC a long time ago because it ran decent. One of the weld
>channels has said its always been AC/DC rod. Could have been Welding
>Tips & Tricks or Weld.com. I watch them both when I have my morning
>coffee. I had a buddy tell me many years ago it was DC only when we
>were working on a trailer (converting from boat to flatbed) to go get a
>scissor lift in Denver I had purchased on-line. Anyway, he lectured me
>about it, so I went and got the box. It said E7018 and listed AC and
>DC. Later I noticed some boxed labeled 7018AC. I asked around about
>what the difference was. The most knowledgeable welding people I knew
>at the time said, "the label." I sold that scissor lift a few years
>ago, but I still have the trailer. It hasn't broken yet.

Got thinking about this after I posted... went back through my welding
docs on the computer and think I just blew it🙄 All my old catalogs
show it as AC/DC, same with the numbers. A lot of the evens were
showing AC/DC in the cats too. Normally I look at the package and/or
catalog listing to see what the recommended settings are first. Use
those as a starting point and make changes as I go if need be. Don't do
it often enough to remember the settings between repairs nowadays...

<snip>
>> x 1/8" on a cast iron repair. Noma is orders of magnitude cheaper to buy
>> than nickle rod.

>I'll have to check that out. I have a small package of nickle 55 I
>bought when a local store was dumping all of one brand to go with
>another brand. I guard it like its gold. Might be nice to have another
>option... Well stainless works too, but I doubt its approved for
>anything. LOL.

I was leery of it but it worked out fine for that job. Suspect nickel
is the best though if you can afford it :)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lylejinofe.fsf@void.com...

I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
(all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
"fly-by-wire" electronics?)

------------------

I measured the output characteristic of my 50A buzz box transformer after it
had been rectified and filtered to DC. Without a load it is ~58VDC, the peak
value of the AC sine wave. As the output current increases the voltage
decreases to about 32V at 25A, as though it has around 1 Ohm in series,
though it's a combination of wire winding and my added rectifier and circuit
resistance plus intentionally uncoupled inductance in the transformer
winding, called impedance when it isn't pure E=IR resistance. The maximum
current into a short circuit or fuse/breaker being tested is at least 70A.
This impedance is always present without a time delay between corrections,
like in an inverter.

The stick welding current isn't "constant", as it increases it pulls down
the voltage, to zero if the rod sticks, then the voltage drop is all in the
transformer. The indicated design value is 22V across a 50A arc, or about
half an Ohm of series impedance in the transformer.

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/welding-and-cutting-resource-center/process-and-theory/constant-current-vs-constant-voltage-output

Hope this helps, jsw

> 180A Pickhill oil cooled welder

I've never met an oil-cooled stick welder which wasn't excellent.
I don't know the Max-Arc rectifier. One I used was an air-cooled
contraption - historic and by Murex.

Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid> writes:
> ...
> A lot of the Pro's avoid 6013 because it's hard to see the puddle ...
> ... Made me feel a lot better when I heard that
> because I'd always had trouble seeing the puddle. Thought it was just
> "me" and I sucked...
>
> ...

I've noticed that.
Recently used 6013 and knew something was harder work than usual.
Switched to 7018 - could see the weld so clearly, absolutely and
in-comparison.

On 27/03/2023 23:17, Richard Smith wrote:
>> 180A Pickhill oil cooled welder
> I've never met an oil-cooled stick welder which wasn't excellent.
> I don't know the Max-Arc rectifier. One I used was an air-cooled
> contraption - historic and by Murex.

The rectifier sounds about the same lots of air space in the box, an air
cooled full wave rectifier, and a large inductor for smoothing. I still
have it but it's been on loan for a while although my mate hasn't used
it AFAIK. I had it back once to try and run some old hard facing rods
but I guess they'd been stored badly and were degraded as no polarity
DC, AC, or 50V OCV or 80V OCV  combination I tried would get them to run
so binned them and bought some new ones which ran sweet. I have an
oscilloscope but have never connected it up when using the rectifier so
don't know how well the rectifier smoothed things, maybe one day.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lylejinofe.fsf@void.com...
>
> I've never yet met an inverter machine which can burn 6010's well.
> (all multiprocess are inverters? Can't be CC (Constant Current) and
> CV (Constant Voltage) by electrical principles (?) - must be
> "fly-by-wire" electronics?)
>
> ------------------
>
> I measured the output characteristic of my 50A buzz box transformer
> after it had been rectified and filtered to DC. Without a load it is
> ~58VDC, the peak value of the AC sine wave. As the output current
> increases the voltage decreases to about 32V at 25A, as though it has
> around 1 Ohm in series, though it's a combination of wire winding and
> my added rectifier and circuit resistance plus intentionally uncoupled
> inductance in the transformer winding, called impedance when it isn't
> pure E=IR resistance. The maximum current into a short circuit or
> fuse/breaker being tested is at least 70A. This impedance is always
> present without a time delay between corrections, like in an inverter.
>
> The stick welding current isn't "constant", as it increases it pulls
> down the voltage, to zero if the rod sticks, then the voltage drop is
> all in the transformer. The indicated design value is 22V across a
> 50A arc, or about half an Ohm of series impedance in the transformer.
>
> https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/welding-and-cutting-resource-center/process-and-theory/constant-current-vs-constant-voltage-output
>
> Hope this helps, jsw

Always clear. Measurement always good.

"Constant Current" - the arc for doing the welding will run only in a
narrowish range of voltages, in which "constant current" would to a
close approximation happen.
If the current increases as the arc voltage reduces, likely as you
hold a very short arc, that would tend towards constant power - which
would be no bad thing...

David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:

> ...
> ... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
> using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
> things, maybe one day.

Interesting to investigate, but the good question is always "does it
weld well?"

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7cv1jnmm.fsf@void.com...

Always clear. Measurement always good.

"Constant Current" - the arc for doing the welding will run only in a
narrowish range of voltages, in which "constant current" would to a
close approximation happen.
If the current increases as the arc voltage reduces, likely as you
hold a very short arc, that would tend towards constant power - which
would be no bad thing...

----------------------
Measurement not always cheap/easy.
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/current-clamps/fluke-i1010

If the source and load impedances are nearly equal the power into the load
is maximized and remains relatively constant as the current and voltage
change, in opposite directions. A clue is the voltage running around 1/2 of
its no-load value. In a stick welder this gives a high voltage to start the
arc and limits the current when the rod sticks. The disadvantage is power
wasted in the source. At full power my welding transformer battery charger
is only about 50% efficient. The efficiency increases rapidly as I turn down
the input AC voltage to decrease the charging current.

Solar panels behave similarly, which is why a panel designed to charge a 12V
battery to 14.4V outputs over 20V without a load.

"David Billington" wrote in message news:tvtc6b$3engp$1@dont-email.me...

>I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when using the
>rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed things, maybe one
>day.

My battery charger provided the opportunity to run a welding transformer
continuously at high power into a variable resistive load so I experimented
with it. Rectified into a 78000uF capacitor the ripple at 20V, 20A was only
about 1V peak to peak and appears sinusoidal instead of a sawtooth. I assume
this is due to the transformer's uncoupled impedance which makes it CC
instead of CV.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly355pjniz.fsf@void.com...

David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:

> ...
> ... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
> using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
> things, maybe one day.

Interesting to investigate, but the good question is always "does it
weld well?"

---------------------

Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't measure
voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my digital scope
won't sample long enough. These require additional user-designed circuitry
to isolate and condition the voltage and current signals.
https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/

On 3/28/2023 5:14 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Richard Smith"  wrote in message news:ly355pjniz.fsf@void.com...
>
> David Billington <djb@invalid.com> writes:
>
>> ...
>> ... . I have an oscilloscope but have never connected it up when
>> using the rectifier so don't know how well the rectifier smoothed
>> things, maybe one day.
>
> Interesting to investigate, but the good question is always "does it
> weld well?"
>
> ---------------------
>
> Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
> doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
> measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
> digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional
> user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and current
> signals.
> https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
>

Years ago I used to use a relatively cheap DVOM with a serial port
output to prove to customers their power was "unclean." I'd just hook
it to the circuit, tie the serial port to a laptop computer with a
serial communications terminal program running, and leave it overnight.
12-16 hrs was no big deal on my old laptop computers. Sample time and
serial port speed is of course an issue as you indicated, but I don't
see why the same thing couldn't be done with a scope that has a data
output. I'll have to go look to see if my cheap 2 channel digital scope
has a communication port. (I've only ever used it for tuning servo
drives).

Upon a moments thought I recall that there are scopes with little more
than an interface that use a computer for the display and computational
capability. I am sure you could do data logging with something like
that. When last I looked those units were even cheaper than my import 2
channel scope.

I am aware that you used the word "Fluke." I understand that it might
be beneath notice to consider a "cheap" tool, but there are ways to get
most jobs done. I've never owned a Fluke meter.

P.S. Upon another moments thought I recall I actually bought that 2
channel scope (4 channels would have been ideal, but was out of my
budget) to develop an idea I had for a medical heart monitor and
training device. I did not work on it full time, and sadly Hewlett
Packard came out with something a year or so later that performed a
nearly identical function. I guess as soon as I had the idea I should
have written it up and applied for at least a provisional patent. I
still have boxes of electronic components on the shelf (some unopened)
left over from that project idea. Its just that the only thing I
actually used the scope for was tuning servo drives.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvv5ud$3qv0u$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/28/2023 5:14 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
> doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
> measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
> digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional
> user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and current
> signals.
> https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
>

Years ago I used to use a relatively cheap DVOM with a serial port
output to prove to customers their power was "unclean." I'd just hook
it to the circuit, tie the serial port to a laptop computer with a
serial communications terminal program running, and leave it overnight.
12-16 hrs was no big deal on my old laptop computers. Sample time and
serial port speed is of course an issue as you indicated, but I don't
see why the same thing couldn't be done with a scope that has a data
output. I'll have to go look to see if my cheap 2 channel digital scope
has a communication port. (I've only ever used it for tuning servo
drives).

{{{ A DSO may be a bit much to suggest to someone who doesn't already know
electricity and how to use them. I don't think my Tenma DSO outputs
continuously in real time, only to internal files.

I do most of my battery charge / discharge and temperature data logging with
TP4000ZC serial comm DMMs and a laptop. The limitation is that it logs no
faster than one reading per second, fine for batteries or solar but not
welding where the arc conditions change too fast. The advantage is the
optically isolated channels that avoid ground loops. }}}

Upon a moments thought I recall that there are scopes with little more
than an interface that use a computer for the display and computational
capability. I am sure you could do data logging with something like
that. When last I looked those units were even cheaper than my import 2
channel scope.

{{{ Common ground. I may need to measure voltage and current at different
locations. Collecting accurate data from several places on a prototype
electric vehicle proved tricky. The datalogger was an industrial unit with
differential inputs, which helped. It programmed in some arcane proprietary
language, which didn't. }}}

I am aware that you used the word "Fluke." I understand that it might
be beneath notice to consider a "cheap" tool, but there are ways to get
most jobs done. I've never owned a Fluke meter.

{{{ I have a very old Fluke 8800A ($25) that still reads a voltage standard
to the last digit.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fluke_digital_multimeter_8800a.html
My own AC/DC current probe is a "Hantek", good enough if you aren't fussy.
In product R&D for lawyer-proofing we always had to take data with equipment
that was in traceable calibration, which rules out the hobby stuff, and
makes obsolete lab gear quite affordable. I have "broken" meters that I've
fixed by reseating the ICs in their sockets. }}}

P.S. Upon another moments thought I recall I actually bought that 2
channel scope (4 channels would have been ideal, but was out of my
budget) to develop an idea I had for a medical heart monitor and
training device. I did not work on it full time, and sadly Hewlett
Packard came out with something a year or so later that performed a
nearly identical function. I guess as soon as I had the idea I should
have written it up and applied for at least a provisional patent. I
still have boxes of electronic components on the shelf (some unopened)
left over from that project idea. Its just that the only thing I
actually used the scope for was tuning servo drives.

{{{ I've had some involvement with defibrillators and other medical
equipment. Liability and the heavy hand of the government are too much for
me. }}}

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 3/28/2023 3:20 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:tvv5ud$3qv0u$1@dont-email.me...
>
> On 3/28/2023 5:14 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> Recording while welding tends to require an expensive datalogger that
>> doesn't have other hobby uses. My cheap and simple DVM version can't
>> measure voltage and current fast enough or at the same time, and my
>> digital scope won't sample long enough. These require additional
>> user-designed circuitry to isolate and condition the voltage and
>> current signals.
>> https://www.dataq.com/products/di-1100/
>>
>
> Years ago I used to use a relatively cheap DVOM with a serial port
> output to prove to customers their power was "unclean."  I'd just hook
> it to the circuit, tie the serial port to a laptop computer with a
> serial communications terminal program running, and leave it overnight.
> 12-16 hrs was no big deal on my old laptop computers.  Sample time and
> serial port speed is of course an issue as you indicated, but I don't
> see why the same thing couldn't be done with a scope that has a data
> output.  I'll have to go look to see if my cheap 2 channel digital scope
> has a communication port.  (I've only ever used it for tuning servo
> drives).
>
> {{{ A DSO may be a bit much to suggest to someone who doesn't already
> know electricity and how to use them. I don't think my Tenma DSO outputs
> continuously in real time, only to internal files.
>
> I do most of my battery charge / discharge and temperature data logging
> with TP4000ZC serial comm DMMs and a laptop. The limitation is that it
> logs no faster than one reading per second, fine for batteries or solar
> but not welding where the arc conditions change too fast. The advantage
> is the optically isolated channels that avoid ground loops. }}}
>
> Upon a moments thought I recall that there are scopes with little more
> than an interface that use a computer for the display and computational
> capability.  I am sure you could do data logging with something like
> that.  When last I looked those units were even cheaper than my import 2
> channel scope.
>
> {{{ Common ground. I may need to measure voltage and current at
> different locations. Collecting accurate data from several places on a
> prototype electric vehicle proved tricky. The datalogger was an
> industrial unit with differential inputs, which helped. It programmed in
> some arcane proprietary language, which didn't. }}}
>
> I am aware that you used the word "Fluke."  I understand that it might
> be beneath notice to consider a "cheap" tool, but there are ways to get
> most jobs done.  I've never owned a Fluke meter.
>
> {{{ I have a very old Fluke 8800A ($25) that still reads a voltage
> standard to the last digit.
> https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/fluke_digital_multimeter_8800a.html
> My own AC/DC current probe is a "Hantek", good enough if you aren't
> fussy. In product R&D for lawyer-proofing we always had to take data
> with equipment that was in traceable calibration, which rules out the
> hobby stuff, and makes obsolete lab gear quite affordable. I have
> "broken" meters that I've fixed by reseating the ICs in their sockets. }}}
>
> P.S.  Upon another moments thought I recall I actually bought that 2
> channel scope (4 channels would have been ideal, but was out of my
> budget) to develop an idea I had for a medical heart monitor and
> training device.  I did not work on it full time, and sadly Hewlett
> Packard came out with something a year or so later that performed a
> nearly identical function.  I guess as soon as I had the idea I should
> have written it up and applied for at least a provisional patent.  I
> still have boxes of electronic components on the shelf (some unopened)
> left over from that project idea.   Its just that the only thing I
> actually used the scope for was tuning servo drives.
>
> {{{ I've had some involvement with defibrillators and other medical
> equipment. Liability and the heavy hand of the government are too much
> for me. }}}
>

My plan was a working proof of concept (secret), patent, sell to
somebody like HP. I guess I should have patented first. LOL.

More recently there is a very talented surgeon who develops orthopedic
medical implants in his home shop. He has tried to get me to help
design and machine with him a couple times. I've always turned him down
for the same reason. Liability.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvvtfu$3uotl$1@dont-email.me...

More recently there is a very talented surgeon who develops orthopedic
medical implants in his home shop. He has tried to get me to help
design and machine with him a couple times. I've always turned him down
for the same reason. Liability.

Bob La Londe

----------------------

I noticed that the engineers in a medical equipment company never put their
names on anything. I couldn't determine who had designed or programmed
anything that they asked me to fix.