On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 16.15.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>> >>
>> >> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>> >> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>> >> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>> >
>> >If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>> >generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>> >compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>> >and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>> >
>> >"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>> These are cool:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1
>>
>> Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1
>>
>> How can they wind that inductor?
>
>soft wire and constraint it from bending any other way than you want it to
>
>https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420

That is a cool video ! We use flat wire just about like that.

I had wondered how they did that. Not that hard to do evidently.

I love the way they make woven/braided wire (Litz) and woven rope.

boB

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>
>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>
>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
>>>
>>
>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
>> adapt.
>>
>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking.
>>
>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.
>
> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?

One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.

"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed."

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>
>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>
>>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
>>> adapt.
>>>
>>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking.
>>>
>>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.
>>
>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
>
>One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
>the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
>down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
>would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
>re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.
>
>"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
>unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed."
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

I was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig
up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local
processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold
nuggets and metallic iron?

If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids?

On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<0903dhhpmdat4e3fng4cjgplmq5a8gpql9@4ax.com>:

>
>https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>
>Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>
>As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.

Sup[p]er conductors come to mind, but cooling is hard
Gold price in USD is dropping, gold is s good conductor.
Horses...
:-)
Horses are green but full of shit.

Remember that physics question if a car driven by a propellor in the wind
can go faster than the wind?

On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:

>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>
>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>
>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>
>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>

I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>
>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>
>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>
>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>
>
>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.

Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.

My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
wind my own.

On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 18:36:20 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
> ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
> ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
> >
> >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
> >>>
> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
> >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
> >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
> >>
> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
> >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
> >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
> >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
> >>
> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
> >>
> >
> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
> >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
> Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
> Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>
> My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
> operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
> wind my own.

On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 10:36:20 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
....
> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
> >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
> Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
> Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
....

Please see section 1.6 in the Art of Electronics - The x-Chapters for how to minimize skin effects in large power cables where the skin effect is significant even at 50/60Hz.

Litz cable has traditionally been used up to ~1-2Mhz to reduce skin-effect. Above that frequency the inter-conductor capacitance reduces the advantage.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1904162A/en

Modern aircraft are changing to using DC power transmission at 270V or bipolar +/-270V and use high-frequency converters to change to the needed voltage close to the load.

kw

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>>
>>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>>>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>>>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>>>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
>>>> adapt.
>>>>
>>>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking.
>>>>
>>>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.
>>>
>>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
>>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
>>
>> One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
>> the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
>> down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
>> would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
>> re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.
>>
>> "This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
>> unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed."
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> I was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig
> up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local
> processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold
> nuggets and metallic iron?
>
> If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids?
>

Mostly hydrothermal AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>
>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>
>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>
>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>
>
>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.

A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
cheaper than gold too.

Joe Gwinn

On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
> ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
> ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
> >
> >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
> >>>
> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
> >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
> >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
> >>
> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
> >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
> >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
> >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
> >>
> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
> >>
> >
> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
> >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
> A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
> cheaper than gold too.
>
> Joe Gwinn

At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper.
The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length
of the surface.

John

John Walliker wrote:
> On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>>> <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> <f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>>
>>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>
>>>> If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>>> generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>>> compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>>> and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>>>
>>>> "Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>>> some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>> A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
>> cheaper than gold too.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
> At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper.
> The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length
> of the surface.
>
> John
>

The first RF thing I ever made for hire (1981) was a 12-GHz microwave
absorption cavity for a phase-noise measurement setup. I still have it
on my windowsill at the lab.

It was machined from solid OFHC copper, and then electroless-copper
plated to improve its surface conductivity.

The inside of the cavity is still very shiny-looking, 40 years later.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Saturday, 16 July 2022 at 15:02:01 UTC+2, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 10:17:56 PM UTC+10, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
> > >As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
> > >resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
> > >gathering too.
> If you go to the trouble of setting up a grid system. Stick a battery bank next to you solar cells and/or windmill and you need a much smaller grid,and less wire.
> > >The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
> > >runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
> Long runs tend to be cheaper if you convert to higher voltage and lower current for the long run, and convert back down again at the point of use. The utility companies having been doing this for a century or so now.
> > In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate
> > from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by
> > solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC
> > conversion losses.
> The main point is that telephone systems used to be set up around a stack of four 12V lead-acid cells, so 48V is a kind of industry standard. Lead acid cells aren't as good as lithium ion cells, but if you can sell good old-fashioned lead acid batteries why spend time and energy on offering a better system?
>
> Individual solar cells produce a roughly hyperbolic current versus voltage curve. You get maximum power by operating at about 0.46V.
>
> You can stack 36 of them to get an array that will charge a 12V lead acid battery. Running a smaller number into an inverter and using mark-to-space modulation to tweak the voltage step-up can let you get close to optimal performance, but that takes design work.
>
> People tend to avoid doing that, if they can get away without it.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney
--individual solar cells produce a roughly hyperbolic current versus voltage curve. You get maximum power by operating at about 0.46V.

Solar cell - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell

Individual solar cell devices are often the electrical building blocks of photovoltaic modules, known colloquially as solar panels. The common single junction silicon solar cell can produce a maximum open-circuit voltage of approximately 0.5 volts to 0.6 volts.

so for 60-cell solar panel I get 30V nominal output

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 13:28:03 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
<jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>> ><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> ><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >
>> >>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>> >>>
>> >>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>> >>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>> >>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>> >>
>> >>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>> >>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>> >>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>> >>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>> >>
>> >>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>> >>
>> >
>> >I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>> >some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>> A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
>> cheaper than gold too.
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
>At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper.
>The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length
>of the surface.
>
>John

Interesting ! And makes sense with waveguide being so smooth and all.

On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>:

>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>
>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>
>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>>
>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>>
>>
>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.

Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
google 'cantenna'.

For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.

>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>
>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
>wind my own.

What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
><pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>>><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>>
>>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>
>>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>>>
>>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>>>
>>>
>>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>
>Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
>Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
>but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
>tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
>google 'cantenna'.
>
>For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.
>
>
>>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
>>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>>
>>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
>>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
>>wind my own.
>
>What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?

My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment
testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some
alternators get into the mid audio range.

I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.

The Pockels Cell driver was SiC.

On 7/15/2022 1:30 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>
> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>
>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>
>>
>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>
>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
>>
>
> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
> adapt.
>
> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking.
>
> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.
>
> Like we've been doing since our distant ancestors left the trees!
>
> John :-#)#

We've been mining the asteroids? When? Which one?

On 16/07/2022 16:29, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
>> In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>,
>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says...
>>>
>>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
>>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
>>>
>>> Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a
>> strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go
>> through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.
>
> and convinced people that "used" diamonds are not good enough,
> you have to get a new one

They are running scared of the synthetic diamond producers now:

https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-created-diamonds/

Not that long ago the only colour of synthetic diamond was yellow since
they couldn't prevent nitrogen impurities getting in but today you can
have most any colour you like including water clear.

Technology for making them is not unlike some semiconductor processes
but with rather more aggressive conditions!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 07/18/2022 09:58 AM, John S wrote:
> On 7/15/2022 1:30 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>>
>> On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>
>>>
>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>
>>> As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
>>> resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
>>> gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
>>> runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
>>>
>>
>> Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have
>> to adapt.
>>
>> Or some genius will notice something we've been overlooking.
>>
>> Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.
>>
>> Like we've been doing since our distant ancestors left the trees!
>>
>> John :-#)#
>
> We've been mining the asteroids? When? Which one?

https://www.cnet.com/pictures/swords-from-the-stars-weapons-forged-from-meteoric-iron/6/

Sort of...

mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 18.11.19 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:
> On 16/07/2022 16:29, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
> >> In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>,
> >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says...
> >>>
> >>> That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
> >>> asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
> >>>
> >>> Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a
> >> strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go
> >> through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.
> >
> > and convinced people that "used" diamonds are not good enough,
> > you have to get a new one
> They are running scared of the synthetic diamond producers now:
>

and tried their best to convinced everyone that the synthetic diamond
isn't quite as good as the real thing (I guess not enough blood on them)

And that manufacturers of synthetic diamonds should lasermark them
so you can tell it is synthetic

mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 16.08.01 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
> ><pth8dh1osgj6lsgki...@4ax.com>:
> >
> >>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
> >>><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
> >>>
> >>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
> >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
> >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
> >>>>
> >>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
> >>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
> >>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
> >>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
> >>>>
> >>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
> >>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
> >
> >Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
> >Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
> >but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
> >tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
> >google 'cantenna'.
> >
> >For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.
> >
> >
> >>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
> >>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
> >>
> >>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
> >>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
> >>wind my own.
> >
> >What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?
> My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment
> testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some
> alternators get into the mid audio range.
>
> I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.

how happy are they in linear mode? the datasheet SOA doesn't show DC

On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:07:50 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<brpadh1iiiht69se2thu7vb46bbbv37vvr@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
>>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>><pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>>>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>>>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>>
>>Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
>>Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
>>but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
>>tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
>>google 'cantenna'.
>>
>>For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.
>>
>>
>>>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
>>>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>>>
>>>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
>>>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
>>>wind my own.
>>
>>What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?
>
>My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment
>testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some
>alternators get into the mid audio range.

OK that thing, I thought you mentioned GHz

>I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.

Impressive specs..
Yes downloaded the datasheet, Ciss is a bit too big for GHz :-)
RthJC is .28 max...
That by itself at 446 W is alrady 116 degrees C..

>The Pockels Cell driver was SiC.
>
>

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 09:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>mandag den 18. juli 2022 kl. 16.08.01 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
>> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>> ><pth8dh1osgj6lsgki...@4ax.com>:
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> >><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>> >>><whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >>><f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>> >>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>> >>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>> >>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>> >>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>> >>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>> >>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>> >
>> >Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
>> >Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
>> >but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
>> >tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
>> >google 'cantenna'.
>> >
>> >For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.
>> >
>> >
>> >>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
>> >>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>> >>
>> >>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
>> >>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
>> >>wind my own.
>> >
>> >What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?
>> My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment
>> testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some
>> alternators get into the mid audio range.
>>
>> I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.
>
>how happy are they in linear mode? the datasheet SOA doesn't show DC

Yeah, switcher-rated fets can blow up at low power in linear mode.
This one is good for a kilowatt dissipation for 10 ms, and we'll be
running at 100 watts max DC per fet. It might be prudent to limit the
peak voltage to 250 maybe to keep low in the SOAR.

We'll test it for sure. Our FPGA will snoop voltage and current pretty
often so it can protect the fets.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4nxm7m2q3j3buvc/ExFets.jpg?raw=1

We filled a coffee cup with blown-up fets when we designed our big NMR
gradient driver.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 16:39:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:07:50 -0700) it happened
>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
><brpadh1iiiht69se2thu7vb46bbbv37vvr@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 07:06:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:36:09 -0700) it happened
>>>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>>><pth8dh1osgj6lsgkifehtkji10jsufd54q@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
>>>>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>><f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
>>>>>>> could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
>>>>>>> Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
>>>>>>generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
>>>>>>compact and need less wire volume. Copper's ductility, however,
>>>>>>and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
>>>>>some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
>>>
>>>Dunno, I know about tubes as waveguides in GHz stuff.
>>>Not sure the coating on the inside (if any) matters much (somebody will correct me I am sure),
>>>but smooth surface is better (no reflections)
>>>tried everything from alu chimney pipes to soldered together food cans..
>>>google 'cantenna'.
>>>
>>>For lower frequency coils at up to to a few hundred MHz I always use silvered wire.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Aren't copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
>>>>Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
>>>>
>>>>My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
>>>>operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
>>>>wind my own.
>>>
>>>What FET do you use for that high power variable programmable GHz load?
>>
>>My load board works at KHz, not GHz. It's for aircraft equipment
>>testing, and the most common frequencies are DC and 400 Hz. Some
>>alternators get into the mid audio range.
>
>OK that thing, I thought you mentioned GHz
>
>>I'll use four of IRFPS37N50A, which spec at 446 watts each.
>
>Impressive specs..
>Yes downloaded the datasheet, Ciss is a bit too big for GHz :-)
>RthJC is .28 max...
>That by itself at 446 W is alrady 116 degrees C..
>

We'll have 4 fets on the CPU cooler. In DC mode, each fet will
dissipate 100 watts max. Dumping power from an AC source, each
dissipates 50 watts.

The decision to make is, how hot can we allow the cooler to get? 75C?
95C? That determines our max power spec, which is still TBD.

The cooler itself seems to be about 0.25 K/W at max fan speed.

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
> https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

I call bullshit on this, same with any other weird future crisis. None of the claims are anything but
laughable. I like the "data processing and storage" theory of where all the copper is going now.