On 20/07/2022 15:39, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
>>>>>> In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>, Joe Gwinn
>>>>>> <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent
>>> infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease
>>> requiring hospitalization.
>>
>> 'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't
>> much of a selling point.
>
> You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and
> you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect
> other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.

That still isn't at all clear. UK has nearly 95% first dose with at
least one jab and a recalcitrant 5% still hardline refuseniks.

The current wave of BA.4 and BA.5 is sufficiently infectious in
vaccinated people that 1:18 people have Covid right *now* which is
almost as high as in the initial Omicron wave and it is still rising
(and that is in the middle of summer when respiratory diseases normally
disappear here with warm dry summer weather).

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-variants-identified-in-the-uk-latest-updates

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

By comparison the first wave largely faded out during the first summer
(except in a handful of unlucky places) and the second wave also. The
behaviour of Omicron subvariants now is qualitatively different to
previous waves and it continues to become ever more infectious.

It must eventually hit some limit but BA.4 has 19% faster growth than
BA.2 and BA.5 is 35% faster so looks like it will win out (unless and
until BA.6 or some even more infectious new Greek letter comes along).
>
> Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant
> customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public
> health issue is all about getting as many people as possible
> vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as possible to
> express any irrational reluctance they may feel.

UK has had a pretty successful vaccine roll out but the pandemic is not
really under control so much as no longer killing quite so many people.
This is in part because those most susceptible to harm are already dead!

I know people who have had two different strains in relatively quick
succession. It is endemic now and community transmission is rapid.

The vaccine buys you a factor of at least 10 protection against dying of
Covid if you get infected which has to be worthwhile.

It isn't if you catch Covid any more but *when* you next catch it.

>> Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and
>> found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised.
>> The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7
>> deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe
>> for disaster.
>
> Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a
> lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for
> the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.

Age is the single most important factor followed by the most common
co-morbidities like diabetes, hypertension and obesity. Being male also
roughly doubles your chances of coming to harm from Covid.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/

Around 90% of victims had at least one co-morbidity.

The average number of co-morbidities of those who have died is 2.5.

The statistic that the UK science communicators used that puts it into
context is that having Covid is roughly equivalent to taking your annual
age related risk of dying that year in a single hit.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 My experience so far: My son came home from work sic a week ago
Wednesday, a 3 month expired test, showed a week positive.
 Next day a new test was full on positive. His sore throat was better,
he said 1-1/2 of 10. He has coughed a few times, but very little.
He went back to work after 4 days, Corp. policy is 5 days off and 5 days
with a mask. The day he went back to work several people
were off with Covid. My son lives with mom and dad, we are 63 and 67, we
took no precautions other than not touching him or handling what he handled.
We have separate computers desks, 6 ft from each other and spend hours
sitting near each other. 8 days of son with known symptoms and mom and
dad are still fine. Wife and Son got J&J, I got
Moderna  (2)  and  booster (1). I have been taking a multivitamin,
Vitamin D, Zinc/vitamin C, Quercetin, Lactoferrin, L-Citrulline and
metformin, (I'm not diabetic, it has been found to help)
I still have my fingers crossed.

--
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On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 11:28:15 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 20/07/2022 15:39, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 4:03:26 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
> >> On 07/19/2022 08:53 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 10:37:59 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
> >>>> On 07/19/2022 05:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>> On 7/19/2022 3:54 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
> >>>>>> In article <rc7edh1icl9c1v8ev...@4ax.com>, Joe Gwinn
> >>>>>> <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Right- they discovered early on that the vaccine does not prevent
> >>> infection, so they moved the goal posts to serious disease
> >>> requiring hospitalization.
> >>
> >> 'You are still susceptible but it probably won't be as bad' isn't
> >> much of a selling point.
> >
> > You are much less likely to end up dead puts it more accurately, and
> > you do need to throw in the fact that you are less likely to infect
> > other people if you do get infected after you have been vaccinated.
> That still isn't at all clear. UK has nearly 95% first dose with at
> least one jab and a recalcitrant 5% still hardline refuseniks.
>
> The current wave of BA.4 and BA.5 is sufficiently infectious in
> vaccinated people that 1:18 people have Covid right *now* which is
> almost as high as in the initial Omicron wave and it is still rising
> (and that is in the middle of summer when respiratory diseases normally
> disappear here with warm dry summer weather).
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-variants-identified-in-the-uk-latest-updates
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
>
> By comparison the first wave largely faded out during the first summer
> (except in a handful of unlucky places) and the second wave also. The
> behaviour of Omicron subvariants now is qualitatively different to
> previous waves and it continues to become ever more infectious.
>
> It must eventually hit some limit but BA.4 has 19% faster growth than
> BA.2 and BA.5 is 35% faster so looks like it will win out (unless and
> until BA.6 or some even more infectious new Greek letter comes along).
> >
> > Treating vaccination as something that needs to be sold to reluctant
> > customers may fit the private enterprise mind-set, but the public
> > health issue is all about getting as many people as possible
> > vaccinated, and giving them as little opportunity as possible to
> > express any irrational reluctance they may feel.
> UK has had a pretty successful vaccine roll out but the pandemic is not
> really under control so much as no longer killing quite so many people.
> This is in part because those most susceptible to harm are already dead!
>
> I know people who have had two different strains in relatively quick
> succession. It is endemic now and community transmission is rapid.
>
> The vaccine buys you a factor of at least 10 protection against dying of
> Covid if you get infected which has to be worthwhile.
>
> It isn't if you catch Covid any more but *when* you next catch it.
> >> Pre-vaccine they tested the inmates at Marion Correctional and
> >> found over 2000 were positive, most of whom were very surprised.
> >> The follow-up reports were hard to find but iirc there were 7
> >> deaths in an overcrowded situation that should have been a recipe
> >> for disaster.
> >
> > Why? If the inmates had been elderly and sick there would have been a
> > lot more deaths, but 7 out of 2000 is 0.35% which is not expected for
> > the 20 to 30 year-old age bracket.
> Age is the single most important factor followed by the most common
> co-morbidities like diabetes, hypertension and obesity. Being male also
> roughly doubles your chances of coming to harm from Covid.
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/
>
> Around 90% of victims had at least one co-morbidity.
>
> The average number of co-morbidities of those who have died is 2.5.
>
> The statistic that the UK science communicators used that puts it into
> context is that having Covid is roughly equivalent to taking your annual
> age related risk of dying that year in a single hit.

That's a bunch of useless macro-statistics babble.

Very recent news release of breakthrough research on what it takes to actually keep people alive:

https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/article-712469

"Results
Estimated high-shear BV (eHSBV) and estimated low-shear BV were associated with increased in-hospital mortality. One-centipoise increases in eHSBV and estimated low-shear BV were associated with a 36.0% and 7.0% increase in death, respectively (P < 0.001). Compared with participants in the lowest quartile of eHSBV, those in the highest quartile of eHSBV had higher mortality (adjusted HR: 1.53; 95% CI: 1.27-1.84). The association was consistent among multiple subgroups, notably among patients without any comorbidities (adjusted HR: 1.69; 95% CI: 1.28-2.22)."

https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.04.060

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
> My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings
> couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
> handwork.
> Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.
>
> You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
> came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.

Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room,
and don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack
of six month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was
more technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were
all removed.

Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip
into the flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.

She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I
don't miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested
but I still have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used
them for ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that
sound.

On 7/20/2022 9:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings
>> couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
>> handwork.
>> Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.
>>
>> You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
>> came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.
>
> Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room, and
> don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack of six
> month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was more
> technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were all removed.

Dentist is incredibly punctual. If you have a 10:00 appt, then you'll
be seen *at* 10:00! So, the number of folks potentially waiting is
limited to the number of hygenists + 1 (for the dentist). If you're
smart, you'll arrange to arrive coincident with your appt.

Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
are "running late")

4:20PM appt, today. Got out of there at 5:58P.

> Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip into the
> flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.

They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
*but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
(e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")

> She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I don't
> miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested but I still
> have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used them for
> ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that sound.

Yeah, the sound seems to originate *between* the ears. "You can hear that?"
"Hell yeah! Can't *you*??!"

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:43:26 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/20/2022 9:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
> > On 07/20/2022 09:13 AM, Don Y wrote:
> >> My dentist shut down all aerosol generating activities. E.g., cleanings
> >> couldn't use cavitron *nor* polishing; everything had to be done by
> >> handwork.
> >> Fillings only on an emergency basis, etc.
> >>
> >> You waited in your vehicle instead of in the waiting room -- and someone
> >> came out to fetch you when they were ready for you.
> >
> > Mine tried to schedule so there was only one person in the waiting room, and
> > don't come in until your appointment. The major problem was the lack of six
> > month old magazines. I was happy to see that while Boys Life was more
> > technically oriented the same old bad jokes persist but they were all removed.
> Dentist is incredibly punctual. If you have a 10:00 appt, then you'll
> be seen *at* 10:00! So, the number of folks potentially waiting is
> limited to the number of hygenists + 1 (for the dentist). If you're
> smart, you'll arrange to arrive coincident with your appt.
>
> Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
> the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
> are "running late")

That's because doctors are not running an assembly line and it's impossible to predict how long is required for each patient. A late doctor is a good caregiver.

>
> 4:20PM appt, today. Got out of there at 5:58P.
> > Polishing still goes on. I drink enough coffee that they always dip into the
> > flour of pumice. It's easy to see the spread with that crap.
> They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
> cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
> *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
> brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
> (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")
> > She dropped the cavitrons long before covid. I never asked why since I don't
> > miss them at all. I haven't had cause to have my hearing tested but I still
> > have some high frequency response. Doesn't help that we used them for
> > ultrasonically welding plastic shell. One doesn't forget that sound.
> Yeah, the sound seems to originate *between* the ears. "You can hear that?"
> "Hell yeah! Can't *you*??!"

On 7/21/2022 7:17 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 1:43:26 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

>> Doctors, OTOH, are notoriously late. So, number of practitioners at
>> the site multiplied by some small factor (related to how many of them
>> are "running late")
>
> That's because doctors are not running an assembly line and it's impossible
> to predict how long is required for each patient. A late doctor is a good caregiver.

"good caregiver" is a non sequitur. A doctor who manages his time poorly
is also late and need not be "good".

How that tardiness is *managed* is significant. Chances are, he's seeing the
same set of patients day after day, year after year. He should have
LEARNED how much time patients require, on average -- and in specifics!

[My PCP allocates a full hour to see me. Not because my needs are greater
than those of other pts but, rather, because he knows we'll spend a fair
bit of time "talking shop". "Take two and call me in the morning" won't
cut it. And, he actually enjoys having a pt that is engaged in his own
care and eager to understand how the Dx is made, the treatment plan
devised, etc.]

If my dentist has to address a dental emergency, I'll be notified
of that and my appointment rescheduled -- even if only "can you come
in an hour later?".

I had an outpatient surgery scheduled, many years ago. I arranged to
adjust my lunch break to coincide with the SHORT appointment. KNOWING that
"shit happens", I called the doctor's office just prior to departing for
my appointment.

"Is the doctor running on-time? If not, I can come a bit later..."

"Yes, we'll see you at 1:00!" (ten minutes from now)

I sat in the waiting room until 2:00 -- then left.

"But you can't leave! You're next!"

"I called an hour and ten minutes ago offering to delay my
arrival to coincide with his slipped schedule. Did he
suddenly find himself an hour late in the ten minutes
it took me to drive here? Look on the bright side, the
time he WON'T spend taking care of me will allow him to
get back on schedule for those who follow me!"

[Lots of doctors! I can find another to deal with this
by week's end...]

On 07/20/2022 11:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
> They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
> cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
> *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
> brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
> (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")

Yeah. I'm not known for big toothy grins so staining isn't a big issue
for me. I definitely don't stick a dental mirror in my mouth to examine
the lower lingual surface she obsesses about. Still I've reached mid-70s
without sleeping with my teeth in a jar so I let her do her thing.

On 7/21/2022 10:03 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/20/2022 11:43 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> They, now, have restored the "high aerosol" procedures. Hygenist uses
>> cavitron (on me) due to my heavy *tea* drinking (basically, nothing
>> *but* tea!). So, even with aggressive toothpastes and frequent
>> brushing, there's a shitload of stain in places the brush can't reach
>> (e.g., buccal/facial are pearly white but lingual always "need work")
>
> Yeah. I'm not known for big toothy grins so staining isn't a big issue for me.

I've been accused of smiling too much. <shrug>

But, the facial sides of the teeth are always pearly white. You'd
have to look *inside* my mouth to see the stain. Despite using
a very abrasive "whitening" toothpaste and electric brush, it's
near impossible to keep them clean (even on a 4 month schedule).

> I definitely don't stick a dental mirror in my mouth to examine the lower
> lingual surface she obsesses about. Still I've reached mid-70s without sleeping
> with my teeth in a jar so I let her do her thing.

I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily...
EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful.
But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

Hygenist has made it abundantly clear that the degree of my "comfort"
(discomfort?) while seated in her chair will be directly related to
how much of said tea I consume.

So, I now limit myself to green tea.

But, even that, in the quantities that I consume, stains horribly!
She suggests drinking *water*! Christ, how boring is that??!

On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily...
> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful.
> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!

The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
vinegar acts as a mordant.

I never had pu-erh but lapsang souchong is no slouch for staining.

On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more, daily...
>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and flavorful.
>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>
> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the vinegar
> acts as a mordant.

<turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
in any form)

> I never had pu-erh but lapsang souchong is no slouch for staining.

All the teas stain (tannin?). The blacker, the more aggressively.

I found the taste of pu-erh to be much more pleasant than "regular"
tea... it's got a sort of "earthy" taste. It is left to ferment for
a period before being packaged for sale (you buy it in "cakes")

But, the higher caffeine content makes it a poor health choice in the
long term (but excellent for dealing with allergies as a short-term fix)

I think the way most (?) folks drink tea also has an effect; you
take the fluid into your mouth and then "shotgun" it into your gut.
So, it has longer time to linger against/between the teeth surfaces.

On 7/20/2022 12:09 PM, amdx wrote:
>  My experience so far: My son came home from work sic a week ago
> Wednesday, a 3 month expired test, showed a weak positive.
>  Next day a new test was full on positive. His sore throat was better,
> he said 1-1/2 of 10. He has coughed a few times, but very little.
> He went back to work after 4 days, Corp. policy is 5 days off and 5
> days with a mask. The day he went back to work several people
> were off with Covid. My son lives with mom and dad, we are 63 and 67,
> we took no precautions other than not touching him or handling what he
> handled.
> We have separate computers desks, 6 ft from each other and spend hours
> sitting near each other. 8 days of son with known symptoms and mom and
> dad are still fine. Wife and Son got J&J, I got
> Moderna  (2)  and  booster (1). I have been taking a multivitamin,
> Vitamin D, Zinc/vitamin C, Quercetin, Lactoferrin, L-Citrulline and
> metformin, (I'm not diabetic, it has been found to help)
> I still have my fingers crossed.
>

Thursday, 8 days after coming home sick, but after questioning he said
he felt off on Tuesday, so 9 days after first symptom son has tested
Negative for Covid.
Dad, (me) tested on Friday and still Negative, not sure why I dodged it
being in close vicinity of him most of the time. His mother is fine
also. So far so good.

Mikek

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On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>> daily...
>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>> flavorful.
>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>
>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>
> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
> in any form)

Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
cabbage.

What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:22:32 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
wrote:

>On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>> daily...
>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>> flavorful.
>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>
>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>
>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
>> in any form)
>
>Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
>please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
>shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
>summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
>cabbage.
>
>What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

I'm Irish. Free corned beef and cabbage at The Dovre Club on St
Paddy's Day. The beer isn't free but that's reasonable.

On 07/22/2022 03:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 14:22:32 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>> daily...
>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>
>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>
>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
>>> in any form)
>>
>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
>> please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
>> shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
>> summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
>> cabbage.
>>
>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.
>
> I'm Irish. Free corned beef and cabbage at The Dovre Club on St
> Paddy's Day. The beer isn't free but that's reasonable.
>
In 1847 the Irish were damned glad to get cabbage; the beef was exported
to Britain. I usually make colcannon. That's closer to reality although
even the potatoes may have been a problem.

At least Butte MT had a celebration this year. They'd missed two years
because of the black plague or whatever.

An Ri Ra is back too.

https://www.mtgaelic.org/lineup

Good lineup this year, almost as good as 2016 when they pulled out all
stops.

Germans and Irish have gotten along well together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtmZtpjb4Ss

It came to nothing and Casement was hung but they tried.

On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>> daily...
>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>> flavorful.
>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>
>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>
>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
>> in any form)
>
> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
> Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
> on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od
> kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.

I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.

It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.

But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!

Likewise, kugelis.

> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.

I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 15:18:41 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>> daily...
>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>
>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>
>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
>>> in any form)
>>
>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
>> Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
>> on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od
>> kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.
>
>I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.
>
>It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.
>
>But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!
>
>Likewise, kugelis.
>
>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.
>
>I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
>I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
>insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
>tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)

I don't like classic heavy red sauces, but Mo makes a nice light
orangish sauce with fresh cherry tomatoes that's pretty good, doctored
a bit with cream and garlic and parmesan.

>
>And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
>presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

Try these. Seriously.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wqsw4gb0714tugr/AADrQVtSGhejmKbmfiSWkeswa?dl=0

On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>> daily...
>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>
>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>
>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
>>> cabbage
>>> in any form)
>>
>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
>> please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
>> shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
>> summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
>> cabbage.
>
> I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.
>
> It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.
>
> But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!
>
> Likewise, kugelis.
>
>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
>> thieves.
>
> I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
> I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
> insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
> tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)
>
> And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
> presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool

No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every
time that added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.

No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way
through a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on
the stove.

On 7/22/2022 8:43 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>>> daily...
>>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>>
>>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>>
>>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
>>>> cabbage
>>>> in any form)
>>>
>>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
>>> please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
>>> shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
>>> summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
>>> cabbage.
>>
>> I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.
>>
>> It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.
>>
>> But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!
>>
>> Likewise, kugelis.
>>
>>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
>>> thieves.
>>
>> I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
>> I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
>> insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
>> tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)
>>
>> And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
>> presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)
>
> https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool
>
> No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every time that
> added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.

Isn't that how EVERYONE does it? <grin>

Then, they wonder why various bits of meta-information are all wrong! :<

I only use butter with pastina; all other pasta has some form of red sauce
(marinara, bolognese, puttanesca, etc.)

I like the fusilli because it is "toothy" (and the shape carries lots of
sauce). Ditto for the cavatelli -- though not as efficient at conveying
sauce to mouth. (also a PITA to make the dough -- and I only get one
meal out of it... 1 pound; it *might* survive frozen but definitely not
dried... eggs)

> No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way through
> a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on the stove.

Have to bake biscotti, tonight, so no such luxury, for me. Else, SWMBO
will make the pouty face, come morning. <frown>

OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr...

On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
> OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..

No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked. Accuweather
says it's 73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air. Damned if you do,
damned if you don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was
wearing jackets. I think they've cycled through every HVAC company in
town trying to find one that can smooth out the system. It's an old
factory with high ceilings and little or no insulation. I like the
industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all the zones regulated.

On a sunny day (Fri, 22 Jul 2022 15:18:41 -0700) it happened Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <tbf7ob$3d8i3$1@dont-email.me>:

>On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>> daily...
>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>
>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>
>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of cabbage
>>> in any form)
>>
>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries, please.
>> Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of shchi with kasha
>> on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the summer. You talk od
>> kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and cabbage.
>
>I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.
>
>It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.
>
>But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!
>
>Likewise, kugelis.
>
>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow thieves.
>
>I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
>I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
>insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
>tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)
>
>And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
>presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)

Been eating spaghetti one day and various pizzas the other day for the last year,
all with lots of ketchup and tomatoes. Lots and lots of virgin olive oil.
grapes, kiwies, bananas, other fruit, chocolate, all sort of cookies.... bread..
cheese... And mushrooms every day.
Heading towards 76 earth years if WW3 does not interfere..
Stopped eating meat 48 years ago.. Of course may change my mind if WW3 makes other food scarce
any of you still eating human beings?

On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..
>
> No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.

Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
(in Summer we can resort to the cooler)

> Accuweather says it's
> 73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.

We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
(as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)

> Damned if you do, damned if you
> don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I

Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!

> think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
> can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
> no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
> the zones regulated.

Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
the air around the *bodies* is a good start.

I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as
*one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.

Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind
vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized
this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 21:43:08 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
wrote:

>On 07/22/2022 04:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 1:22 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 07/22/2022 04:07 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/2022 2:21 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On 07/21/2022 11:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> I drink a lot of tea. A *lot* (to the tune of a gallon or more,
>>>>>> daily...
>>>>>> EVERY day). My preferred tea is pu-erh -- delightfully dark and
>>>>>> flavorful.
>>>>>> But, stains your teeth if you just LOOK at a cup of it!
>>>>>
>>>>> The worst thing I've found is German style red cabbage. I think the
>>>>> vinegar acts as a mordant.
>>>>
>>>> <turns up nose> How much of THAT can you eat? (not a big fan of
>>>> cabbage
>>>> in any form)
>>>
>>> Platefuls. Rotkohl is the staff of life. Easy on the juniper berries,
>>> please. Cabbage, red or white, is so versatile. Nothing like a bowl of
>>> shchi with kasha on the side on a cold winter day, Krautsalat in the
>>> summer. You talk od kielbasa led me to make a nice pot of kielbasa and
>>> cabbage.
>>
>> I'd "tolerate" cabbage in golabki.
>>
>> It makes for good "texture" in egg rolls/lumpia.
>>
>> But, I definitely wouldn't seek it out!
>>
>> Likewise, kugelis.
>>
>>> What can I say? I come from a long line of German peasants and cow
>>> thieves.
>>
>> I much prefer (culinary-wise) the Italian side of my upbringing.
>> I joked with gastroenterologist, prior to colonoscopy, that my
>> insides were likely "stained" tomato red! (given the effect
>> tomato sauce has on the containers in which it is stored)
>>
>> And, with the right type of noodles, heavenly! (Fusilli col buco,
>> presently, as making cavatelli is too much work for the summer heat!)
>
>https://www.cdacellars.com/copy-of-strawberry-rhubarb-fool
>
>No rhubarb there, just noodle pudding. Judging from their links every
>time that added a recipe they copied the last one and edited it.
>
>No way am I firing up the oven at the moment though. I'm working my way
>through a cold rotisserie chicken from CostCo to avoid even turning on
>the stove.
>

We get a rotisserie chicken from Safeway every few weeks, get a meal
and a sandwich from that, and broth the cadaver. Rich home-made
chicken broth blows away the weak salt water that you can buy in cans.

We freeze it into ice cubes. Drop a few into whatever.

On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:24:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
> > On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
> >> OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
> >> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..
> >
> > No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.
> Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
> (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)
> > Accuweather says it's
> > 73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.
> We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
> (as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
> air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
> really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
> the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)
> > Damned if you do, damned if you
> > don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I
> Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!
> > think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
> > can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
> > no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
> > the zones regulated.
> Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
> the air around the *bodies* is a good start.
>
> I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
> But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as
> *one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.
>
> Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind
> vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
> more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized
> this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
> to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)

LG has the Art Cool line:
https://www.ecomfort.com/cooling/lg-art-cool.html

Then there's the custom carpentry ideas:
https://www.protradecraft.com/photos/9-ways-hide-minisplit

On 7/23/2022 7:44 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 3:24:00 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/22/2022 10:39 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 07/22/2022 10:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> OTOH, I can wait until wee hours of morning when outdoor temps drop to
>>>> mid 80's so less work for the ACbrrr..
>>>
>>> No AC here and the indoor temp was 85 the last I looked.
>> Ah. Yes, we rely heavily on the AC -- esp at this time of year
>> (in Summer we can resort to the cooler)
>>> Accuweather says it's
>>> 73 so it will drop as the fan pulls in air.
>> We've debated replacing the cooler with a whole-house exhaust fan
>> (as the ductwork that it feeds would make the entire volume of household
>> air accessible/exhaustible). But, of two opinions on that score (I
>> really like the cooler in Summer as the moist air feels good against
>> the skin; SWMBO *never* likes it.)
>>> Damned if you do, damned if you
>>> don't. I went into the office Wednesday and everyone was wearing jackets. I
>> Ha! I'm lucky if I put on *pants*!
>>> think they've cycled through every HVAC company in town trying to find one that
>>> can smooth out the system. It's an old factory with high ceilings and little or
>>> no insulation. I like the industrial aesthetic but it's a challenge to keep all
>>> the zones regulated.
>> Fans to move air down (or up, depending on season) so you're controlling
>> the air around the *bodies* is a good start.
>>
>> I've been exploring motorized dampers to break the house into zones.
>> But, open floorplan means much of the house will end up being treated as
>> *one* zone so the added controls are likely of little value.
>>
>> Would really like it if they made evaporators that could be located behind
>> vents and rely on the central blower to move air past them. Would be
>> more efficient than cooling the entire house. But, marketers haven't realized
>> this to be a large potential market (everyone with central air who wants
>> to move to mini splits without the ugliness of the wall-mounted units!)
>
> LG has the Art Cool line:
> https://www.ecomfort.com/cooling/lg-art-cool.html

Those mount ON the wall. And, contain a fan, heating element, etc.

What I'm looking for is mounting just the evaporator coil *in* the
existing ductwork, behind the vent grill. Let the existing HVAC plant
move the air through the evaporator coils. I.e., there are no VISIBLE
differences in the appearance of the HVAC system to the occupants.

[And, the ductwork would allow for the refrigerant lines to be routed
invisibly. No need to drill holes through the walls *at* each
evaporator's location, run power to each location, etc.]

Most (all?) mini splits look terribly commercial/industrial... like
the HVAC plant you'd encounter in a hotel room. There's already an
existing place to "hide" the coil, why not exploit that?

> Then there's the custom carpentry ideas:
> https://www.protradecraft.com/photos/9-ways-hide-minisplit