On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 10:27:03 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 12:34:54 PM UTC+11, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
> > > On 10/4/2022 9:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > >> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > >>> :
> > > >>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
> > > >> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
> > > >> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
> > > >> health care, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
> > > ????
> > >
> > > In the US rich people have access to the best health care, and can
> > > afford the healthiest food.
> > >
> > > You can buy a two liter of pop at Wal-Mart for 98 cents, but a liter of
> > > carrot juice will run you $9 at Whole Foods.
> > >
> > > <https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/>
> > >
> > > They don't call it "Whole Paycheck" for nothing.
> > Money can't buy health all the time. If you want to be healthy, just eat carrots for 79 cents a pound. Just as healthy as carrot juice, if not better.
> Too true. But it may be more complicated than Ed Lee thinks
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)
>
> talks about the various consequences of economic inequality (the US has more of it than most).
>
> In unequal societies the poor have very poor health and the rich do quite a lot better, but the even the rich don't do all that well in very unequal societies like the US, and from a health point of view it's better to be poor in Sweden than it is to be rich in the US.

Everything coming out of Sweden by way of vital statistics is a bald-faced lie. People don't die in Sweden, they just stop breathing. It was their hospital policy to not waste resources on treating serious COVID infection in people older than 72 years. They would wheel them into the morphine ward and euthanize them.
They were doing the same in the U.S. in the these out of the way no-places with limited resources and significant population of brain dead people accompanied by ultra-epidemic COVID-19 infection rates, like Wyoming.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 10:11:31 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:28:27 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 10:27:03 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 12:34:54 PM UTC+11, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > On 10/4/2022 9:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > >> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > >>> :
> > > > > >>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
> > > > > >> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
> > > > > >> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
> > > > > >> health care, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
> > > > > ????
> > > > >
> > > > > In the US rich people have access to the best health care, and can
> > > > > afford the healthiest food.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can buy a two liter of pop at Wal-Mart for 98 cents, but a liter of
> > > > > carrot juice will run you $9 at Whole Foods.
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/>
> > > > >
> > > > > They don't call it "Whole Paycheck" for nothing.
> > > > Money can't buy health all the time. If you want to be healthy, just eat carrots for 79 cents a pound. Just as healthy as carrot juice, if not better.
> > > Too true. But it may be more complicated than Ed Lee thinks
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)
> > >
> > > talks about the various consequences of economic inequality (the US has more of it than most).
> > >
> > > In unequal societies the poor have very poor health and the rich do quite a lot better, but the even the rich don't do all that well in very unequal societies like the US, and from a health point of view it's better to be poor in Sweden than it is to be rich in the US.
> >
> > Everything coming out of Sweden by way of vital statistics is a bald-faced lie.
> This is the Gnatguy approach to statistics you don't like. The point about "The Spirit Level" is that it compared a lot of statistics for a whole bunch of advanced industrial countries. Sweden wasn't any kind of outlier, except that it is a bit more egalitarian than most, but nothing dramatic. By contrast, the US is remarkably unequal, and "The Spirit Level" backed up its correlations by comparing more and less ]dramatically unequal US states. It was published in 2009, long before the Covid-19 epidemic.
>
> > People don't die in Sweden, they just stop breathing. It was their hospital policy to not waste resources on treating serious COVID-19 infection in people older than 72 years. They would wheel them into the morphine ward and euthanize them.
>
> If you want to be rude about the Swedish health statistics that "The Spirit Level" cited, you should keep in mind that stuff that happened after 2019 didn't get into the book.

Both of those authors are well-known left-wing political activists who wrote the book to promote their political agenda. It didn't take five minutes to find a multitude of viable approaches to shoot down every bit of their theses ( rhymes with feces).

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 21:49:06 -0700, corvid <bl@ckb.ird> wrote:

>On 10/4/22 19:19, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> : Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor
>>>>> for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination
>>>> rates. I.e., one could probably find a similar correlation
>>>> between intelligence, proactive health care, etc.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are
>>> generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>
>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>> vaccinated.
>
>Earlier studies found the opposite.
>
>https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201104/conservatives-big-fear-brain-study-finds
>
>https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes
>
>Now, it's looking more complicated.
>
>https://www.livescience.com/conservatives-not-more-fearful-than-liberals.html
>
>https://www.psypost.org/2020/03/new-study-suggests-conservatives-are-no-more-fearful-or-threat-sensitive-than-liberals-56305

Psychological studies are usually nonsense. FMRI makes things worse.

Think about the people you know.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 05:23:24 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 10:19:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> >> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> >> > :
>> >> > Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>> >> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>> >> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>> >> health care, etc.
>> >
>> >Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>> vaccinated.
>
>Are they less likely to look both ways before they cross the street in traffic?

I don't know, but prudent avoidance of ambulance rides is rational,
not fear driven.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 13:36:37 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 05/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> :
>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>> health care, etc.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>
>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>> vaccinated.
>
>Also more likely to ignore social distancing rules or wear masks and so
>spread the contagion faster and more efficiently between them.

If indeed masks help. They may be talismans, like garlic and vampires.

As in "It's better to do SOMETHING."

On 10/5/2022 9:09 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> On 10/4/2022 9:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> :
>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>> health care, etc.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>> ????
>>
>> In the US rich people have access to the best health care, and can
>> afford the healthiest food.
>>
>> You can buy a two liter of pop at Wal-Mart for 98 cents, but a liter of
>> carrot juice will run you $9 at Whole Foods.
>>
>> <https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/>
>>
>> They don't call it "Whole Paycheck" for nothing
>
> Let your prejudices make you totally irrational much?
>
> Michelle Obama fixed the Walmart healthy food offering enormously...she had a huge and very beneficial impact.
> You can buy about a liter and a half V8 carrot juice at Walmart for $3.50, and it's EBT eligible.
> https://www.walmart.com/search?q=carrot+juice
> Just watch you don't look at a listing from one of their "marketplace" sellers, most of whom are #$%^&*()_ thieves, parasitic riffraff who should be boiled in oil.
> EBT eligible Pepsi is $2.28 for a 2-liter.
> You won't find Whole Foods listing EBT eligibility much, but that's their problem.

The V8 for $3.50 is mostly sweet potato juice. 16g sugar per 8 oz
serving of "carrot ginger" juice, might as well drink ginger ale.

Have to smash a lot of carrots to make pure carrot juice and it'll be
priced appropriately. The other guy is right, it's cheapest to just make
your own juice.

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:57:28 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 10/5/2022 9:09 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 9:27:32 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> On 10/4/2022 9:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>> :
> >>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
> >>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
> >>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
> >>>> health care, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
> >> ????
> >>
> >> In the US rich people have access to the best health care, and can
> >> afford the healthiest food.
> >>
> >> You can buy a two liter of pop at Wal-Mart for 98 cents, but a liter of
> >> carrot juice will run you $9 at Whole Foods.
> >>
> >> <https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/>
> >>
> >> They don't call it "Whole Paycheck" for nothing
> >
> > Let your prejudices make you totally irrational much?
> >
> > Michelle Obama fixed the Walmart healthy food offering enormously...she had a huge and very beneficial impact.
> > You can buy about a liter and a half V8 carrot juice at Walmart for $3.50, and it's EBT eligible.
> > https://www.walmart.com/search?q=carrot+juice
> > Just watch you don't look at a listing from one of their "marketplace" sellers, most of whom are #$%^&*()_ thieves, parasitic riffraff who should be boiled in oil.
> > EBT eligible Pepsi is $2.28 for a 2-liter.
> > You won't find Whole Foods listing EBT eligibility much, but that's their problem.
> The V8 for $3.50 is mostly sweet potato juice. 16g sugar per 8 oz
> serving of "carrot ginger" juice, might as well drink ginger ale.
>
> Have to smash a lot of carrots to make pure carrot juice and it'll be
> priced appropriately. The other guy is right, it's cheapest to just make
> your own juice.

Would you look at you and your inciteful cynicism of a potential ripoff. Too bad you don't know anything about nutrition. Sweet potatoes, if you even know what they are, are nutritionally superior to the carrot:
https://vegfaqs.com/carrots-vs-sweet-potatoes/

The sugar breakdown is mostly sucrose naturally present in the vegetable, same goes for sugars in carrots. It is not added cane sugar.

Ginger is added to nearly every vegetable juice to make it more palatable, neutralizes the bitterness.

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 20:23:36 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 10/4/2022 5:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> :
>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that Republican-leaning counties have had higher COVID-19 death rates than Democrat- leaning counties and evidence of a link between political party affiliation and vaccination views. This study constructs an individual-level dataset with political affiliation and excess death rates during the COVID-19 pandemic via a linkage of 2017 voter registration in Ohio and Florida to mortality data from 2018 to 2021. We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat
excess
>death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.
>> :
>>
>> https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
>>
>> National Bureau of Economic Research
>> Conducting and disseminating nonpartisan economic research
>
>For a time in the 80s it was Republican policy that "so long as we have
>more & bigger bombs than the Russians we'll be OK" and people are still
>here on the Usenet, so it was clearly an optimal strategy.

.. . . . if you wanted smart people to hold back on having children, do
you mean?

average age of usenet correspondents is . . . .

RL

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 20:23:36 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 10/4/2022 5:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> :
>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that Republican-leaning counties have had higher COVID-19 death rates than Democrat- leaning counties and evidence of a link between political party affiliation and vaccination views. This study constructs an individual-level dataset with political affiliation and excess death rates during the COVID-19 pandemic via a linkage of 2017 voter registration in Ohio and Florida to mortality data from 2018 to 2021. We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat
excess
>death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.
>> :
>>
>> https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
>>
>> National Bureau of Economic Research
>> Conducting and disseminating nonpartisan economic research
>
>For a time in the 80s it was Republican policy that "so long as we have
>more & bigger bombs than the Russians we'll be OK" and people are still
>here on the Usenet, so it was clearly an optimal strategy.

At the end of WWII, the US proposed a world with no nukes, and Free
Skies flyover of the USA and USSR. The russkies refused both.

onsdag den 5. oktober 2022 kl. 20.40.18 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 20:23:36 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/4/2022 5:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> :
> >> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that Republican-leaning counties have had higher COVID-19 death rates than Democrat- leaning counties and evidence of a link between political party affiliation and vaccination views. This study constructs an individual-level dataset with political affiliation and excess death rates during the COVID-19 pandemic via a linkage of 2017 voter registration in Ohio and Florida to mortality data from 2018 to 2021. We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat
> excess
> >death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.
> >> :
> >>
> >> https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
> >>
> >> National Bureau of Economic Research
> >> Conducting and disseminating nonpartisan economic research
> >
> >For a time in the 80s it was Republican policy that "so long as we have
> >more & bigger bombs than the Russians we'll be OK" and people are still
> >here on the Usenet, so it was clearly an optimal strategy.
> At the end of WWII, the US proposed a world with no nukes, and Free
> Skies flyover of the USA and USSR. The russkies refused both.

Eisenhowers "Open skies"? that was just a way to make the USSR look like they were bad guys stopping arms control

On 05/10/2022 13:39, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:16:35 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
> wrote:
>> On 05/10/2022 02:20, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 10/4/2022 6:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>> : Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk
>>>>>> factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in
>>>>> vaccination rates. I.e., one could probably find a similar
>>>>> correlation between intelligence, proactive health care,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are
>>>> generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>>
>>> Can you backup any of those three claims?
>> That is the exact opposite of what happened in the UK. The rich
>> here are generally healthier, fitter and better fed. I doubt if it
>> is any different in the USA except that morbid obesity and
>> diabetes is a lot more frequent than it is anywhere in Europe.
>>
>> The poor already had health conditions due to excessive junk food
>> consumption and smoking. Obesity, hypertension and diabetes being
>> far too common - and all are co-morbidities for Covid.
>>
>> Covid was able to exploit that and the fact they were living hand
>> to mouth and the self isolation payments were inadequate to live
>> on. (even the US ones were more generous)
>>
>> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/jan/health-gap-between-rich-and-poor-has-widened
>>
>>
>>
The Covid pandemic was predominantly a killer of the poor in the UK
>> since they had little choice but to go out and work sometimes even
>> when they knew they had Covid. It spread like wildfire in the
>> poorest areas. In deprived areas you were 2-3x more likely to die
>> of Covid see Fig 2 direct effects on health comparing top 5% vs
>> bottom 5% for outcomes.
>
> Those are mindless statistics that ignore a lot of the essential
> cause for their demise. Poorer people are less educated and less
> intelligent and don't pay attention to things like health, nutrition,

I know a fair number of poorer people who are perfectly intelligent but
for one reason or another did not get a good formal education. I even
know the odd individual who got First class honours and accepted for a
PhD but found life in the real world afterwards too complicated.

> and taking reasonable precautions to avoid infection. But doing the
> simple poor/ not poor comparison plays into the fiction that no one
> is responsible for themselves and everything bad that happens to them
> is a victimization.

No it is a lot stronger than that. Living in a deprived area produces a
very significant reduction in life expectancy. The UK Covid stats
practically followed the deprivation map based on household income.

https://news.sky.com/story/life-expectancy-declines-in-england-before-covid-hit-with-big-north-south-divide-new-data-shows-12432798

And it wasn't all that dissimilar to the Victorian era TB map either.
Overcrowding and inadequate sanitation make diseases spread faster.

>> https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/the-continuing-impact-of-covid-19-on-health-and-inequalities
>>
>>
>>
It didn't help that the conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and 5G also
>> took root amongst the uneducated so vaccine uptake was also lower
>> there.
>>
>> The middle classes by comparison could largely work from home and
>> took every opportunity to get vaccinated as often as possible.
>
> The middle classes were responsible for the development, testing, and
> distribution of the vaccines more so than the lower classes and upper
> obviously. So it's not like they're just a bunch of privileged
> do-nothings. It also points up the importance of the middle class in
> actually bearing the brunt of the burden to get anything done.

The privileged classes were all partying in No 10 Downing Street :(
Or behind closed doors in posh private London clubs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 05/10/2022 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 13:36:37 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>>> health care, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>>
>>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>>> vaccinated.
>>
>> Also more likely to ignore social distancing rules or wear masks and so
>> spread the contagion faster and more efficiently between them.
>
> If indeed masks help. They may be talismans, like garlic and vampires.
>
> As in "It's better to do SOMETHING."

It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone
else. Japan and much of the Far East still follow strict mask wearing
rules - the Emperor of Japan and his wife wore one at QE II's funeral.

The vaccine did a pretty good job of reducing fatalities in the UK once
it got rolled out. We only killed 200k instead of the 600+k predicted at
the outset in a business as usual scenario.

We would have killed a lot less if the Cheltenham Gold Cup and Liverpool
vs Real Madrid had been cancelled. Liverpool took nearly 18 months to
recover from that - they were ravaged all through the first summer.

Likewise if they hadn't thrown Covid infected patients into care homes
to free up hospital beds without even bothering to test them.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/5/2022 1:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 05/10/2022 02:20, Don Y wrote:
>> On 10/4/2022 6:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> : Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for
>>>>> COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates.
>>>> I.e., one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence,
>>>> proactive health care, etc.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer.  And rich people are generally
>>> poor in health.  Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>
>> Can you backup any of those three claims?
>
> That is the exact opposite of what happened in the UK.
> The rich here are generally healthier, fitter and better fed. I doubt if it is
> any different in the USA except that morbid obesity and diabetes is a lot more
> frequent than it is anywhere in Europe.

And, less likely to *need* to go to work *or* to have a job that requires
them to be on the premises.

But, I don't see that there is a political party connection implied, there.

> The poor already had health conditions due to excessive junk food consumption
> and smoking. Obesity, hypertension and diabetes being far too common - and all
> are co-morbidities for Covid.

They also tend to have less transportation options (EVERYONE in my neighborhood
has AT LEAST one car per person. AT LEAST!) which means they are largely
limited to the items that can be purchased "within walking distance". Many
live in "nutritional deserts" where their only offerings are junk food,
prepackaged goods, etc. Items with high markups and low nutritive value.

> Covid was able to exploit that and the fact they were living hand to mouth and
> the self isolation payments were inadequate to live on.
> (even the US ones were more generous)
>
> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/jan/health-gap-between-rich-and-poor-has-widened
>
> The Covid pandemic was predominantly a killer of the poor in the UK since they
> had little choice but to go out and work sometimes even when they knew they had
> Covid. It spread like wildfire in the poorest areas. In deprived areas you were
> 2-3x more likely to die of Covid see Fig 2 direct effects on health comparing
> top 5% vs bottom 5% for outcomes.
>
> https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/the-continuing-impact-of-covid-19-on-health-and-inequalities

A fair share of "deniers" found a cost to their denial. I've many
ultraconservative neighbors who "talk the talk" (anti-vax) but have
(quietly and without acknowledgement) taken vaccines as their age
and health conditions would likely have buried them.

> It didn't help that the conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and 5G also took
> root amongst the uneducated so vaccine uptake was also lower there.
>
> The middle classes by comparison could largely work from home and took every
> opportunity to get vaccinated as often as possible.

It's not just the type of employee but, also, the type of *job*.
If I didn't want to risk my health at a 9-to-5, my employer would
likely *have* to make accommodations cuz my replacement wouldn't
be available (or, would have similar concerns and leverage to make those
demands).

OTOH, a guy stocking shelves at a grocery store KNOWS he can be
replaced *and* would have trouble finding work or meeting his
financial obligations WHILE looking for work.

It's been an interesting experience as folks dependent on others
(housekeepers, landscapers, handymen, etc.) suddenly realized that
the health of those "suppliers" was a serious issue for their
own well-being! (your gated community doesn't protect you
from an illness that can be *invited* in with the folks on whom
you depend)

On 10/5/2022 1:50 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
> It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone else. Japan
> and much of the Far East still follow strict mask wearing rules - the Emperor
> of Japan and his wife wore one at QE II's funeral.

Orientals tend to be more willing to "mask up" even before covid.

A *good* mask (properly worn along with related hygiene) also does a
fair job of protecting the wearer. We'll see how bad cold/flu season is
this year as less folks are wearing masks.

They are still required in most healthcare facilities, here (hospitals,
doctor offices, etc.).

Many of my friends who had stopped wearing masks found themselves
infected when they resumed their social activities -- despite being
doubly *boosted* (on top of doubly vaccinated).

> The vaccine did a pretty good job of reducing fatalities in the UK once it got
> rolled out. We only killed 200k instead of the 600+k predicted at the outset in
> a business as usual scenario.
>
> We would have killed a lot less if the Cheltenham Gold Cup and Liverpool vs
> Real Madrid had been cancelled. Liverpool took nearly 18 months to recover from
> that - they were ravaged all through the first summer.
>
> Likewise if they hadn't thrown Covid infected patients into care homes to free
> up hospital beds without even bothering to test them.

What's sad is that these are FIRST world countries. It makes you wonder how
we would fare with something far more contagious and deadly (ebola?).

"Sure, you can refuse the mask and vaccine. Step into this line, over
here -- the one leading to the undertaker's place of business (cuz we
don't want to have to carry your corpse there, later!)"

It's also disheartening to see the Monkey Pox results. C'mon, you
can't forego sexual contact for a few months to let the disease
run out of hosts?? (wouldn't it be "amusing" if erectile dysfunction
was a long term consequence of MP exposure?)

On 10/5/2022 1:49 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

[attrs elided]

>> Those are mindless statistics that ignore a lot of the essential
>> cause for their demise. Poorer people are less educated and less
>> intelligent and don't pay attention to things like health, nutrition,
>
> I know a fair number of poorer people who are perfectly intelligent but for one
> reason or another did not get a good formal education.

Of course! And a fair number of "highly educated" people who are dumb as
rocks!

> I even know the odd
> individual who got First class honours and accepted for a PhD but found life in
> the real world afterwards too complicated.

But, there is the underlying assumption that wanting to "know those things"
would naturally lead to wanting to USE that knowledge (and/or profit from it).
This ignore the "knowledge for knowledge's sake" argument.

Should all bodybuilders want to engage in physical combat (what other
practical reason to overdevelop musculature) or physical labor?

I've spent a shitload of hours "perfecting" various recipes over the
years. Yet, it doesn't follow that I would want to make a career out
of supplying those items to others (restaurant, bakery, confectioner,
etc.)

[I've studied how the abacus is used in computation. But, would find
using it a hindrance! That doesn't invalidate the knowledge gained.]

>> and taking reasonable precautions to avoid infection. But doing the
>> simple poor/ not poor comparison plays into the fiction that no one
>> is responsible for themselves and everything bad that happens to them
>> is a victimization.
>
> No it is a lot stronger than that. Living in a deprived area produces a very
> significant reduction in life expectancy. The UK Covid stats practically
> followed the deprivation map based on household income.

Sadly, I think too many folks THINK they know how the other half lives.
I *love* hearing folks lecture me about The Border (an hour's drive from
here vs. a day's FLIGHT from their comfy living room!)

Several of the non-profits I've worked with cater to homeless, underserved,
etc. populations. Just traveling *into* these areas is eye-opening.

E.g., we recently petitioned the city to repave our neighborhood streets.
By comparison to the streets in these other areas, ours look marvelous
(the odd PATCHED potholes, here and there vs. gaping HOLES in the
less well off neighborhoods)

I have to drive several miles to find a fast food outlet, passing upscale
restaurants along the way. By contrast, they are almost *in* these (less
fortunate) *residential* areas!

> And it wasn't all that dissimilar to the Victorian era TB map either.
> Overcrowding and inadequate sanitation make diseases spread faster.

Now consider what happens when the folks you rely on (to stock the
shelves in stores, to tabulate your purchases, to clean your house,
to maintain your yard, to service your vehicles, etc.) tend to
commute to and from those areas on their way to perform those duties...

On 10/5/2022 2:40 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 20:23:36 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/4/2022 5:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> :
>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that Republican-leaning counties have had higher COVID-19 death rates than Democrat- leaning counties and evidence of a link between political party affiliation and vaccination views. This study constructs an individual-level dataset with political affiliation and excess death rates during the COVID-19 pandemic via a linkage of 2017 voter registration in Ohio and Florida to mortality data from 2018 to 2021. We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat
> excess
>> death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.
>>> :
>>>
>>> https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
>>>
>>> National Bureau of Economic Research
>>> Conducting and disseminating nonpartisan economic research
>>
>> For a time in the 80s it was Republican policy that "so long as we have
>> more & bigger bombs than the Russians we'll be OK" and people are still
>> here on the Usenet, so it was clearly an optimal strategy.
>
> At the end of WWII, the US proposed a world with no nukes, and Free
> Skies flyover of the USA and USSR. The russkies refused both.
>
The thing about proposals from the US government is that people tend not
to believe them. Hell, lots of Americans don't believe them!
Covid-denialism and anti-vaxxerism didn't evolve in a vacuum.

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:49:13 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 05/10/2022 13:39, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:16:35 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
> > wrote:
> >> On 05/10/2022 02:20, Don Y wrote:
> >>> On 10/4/2022 6:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>>> : Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk
> >>>>>> factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
> >>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in
> >>>>> vaccination rates. I.e., one could probably find a similar
> >>>>> correlation between intelligence, proactive health care,
> >>>>> etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are
> >>>> generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Can you backup any of those three claims?
> >> That is the exact opposite of what happened in the UK. The rich
> >> here are generally healthier, fitter and better fed. I doubt if it
> >> is any different in the USA except that morbid obesity and
> >> diabetes is a lot more frequent than it is anywhere in Europe.
> >>
> >> The poor already had health conditions due to excessive junk food
> >> consumption and smoking. Obesity, hypertension and diabetes being
> >> far too common - and all are co-morbidities for Covid.
> >>
> >> Covid was able to exploit that and the fact they were living hand
> >> to mouth and the self isolation payments were inadequate to live
> >> on. (even the US ones were more generous)
> >>
> >> https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/jan/health-gap-between-rich-and-poor-has-widened
> >>
> >>
> >>
> The Covid pandemic was predominantly a killer of the poor in the UK
> >> since they had little choice but to go out and work sometimes even
> >> when they knew they had Covid. It spread like wildfire in the
> >> poorest areas. In deprived areas you were 2-3x more likely to die
> >> of Covid see Fig 2 direct effects on health comparing top 5% vs
> >> bottom 5% for outcomes.
> >
> > Those are mindless statistics that ignore a lot of the essential
> > cause for their demise. Poorer people are less educated and less
> > intelligent and don't pay attention to things like health, nutrition,
> I know a fair number of poorer people who are perfectly intelligent but
> for one reason or another did not get a good formal education. I even
> know the odd individual who got First class honours and accepted for a
> PhD but found life in the real world afterwards too complicated.

That 0.001% you're talking about usually end up making a good living for themselves whatever they ended up doing.

> > and taking reasonable precautions to avoid infection. But doing the
> > simple poor/ not poor comparison plays into the fiction that no one
> > is responsible for themselves and everything bad that happens to them
> > is a victimization.
> No it is a lot stronger than that. Living in a deprived area produces a
> very significant reduction in life expectancy. The UK Covid stats
> practically followed the deprivation map based on household income.

They have a low life expectancy because they have a low lifestyle that has nothing at all to do with them being "deprived" especially in a country with an NHS. They're probably too ignorant to avail themselves of its services, relying instead on some cockamamy myth of some kind instead.

>
> https://news.sky.com/story/life-expectancy-declines-in-england-before-covid-hit-with-big-north-south-divide-new-data-shows-12432798
>
> And it wasn't all that dissimilar to the Victorian era TB map either.
> Overcrowding and inadequate sanitation make diseases spread faster.

Especially if the disease is spread by contaminated water, like cholera.

TB is an airborne spread respiratory infection. Page 21:

https://www.cdc.gov/tb/education/corecurr/pdf/chapter2.pdf

Epidemiologists have measured viable and infectious airborne TB bacteria hanging around in a taxi cab for two hours after the sneezing coughing carrier left it.

Even the European nobility was coming down with TB all the time and into the 20th century. Maybe they caught it from the servants.

The reason it didn't kill absolutely everybody was because people developed immunity to it. Apparently everyone had it. One statistic I read is that some significant percentage ( 50% ???) of Americans of second generation European immigrant descent have TB antibodies.

> >> https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/the-continuing-impact-of-covid-19-on-health-and-inequalities
> >>
> >>
> >>
> It didn't help that the conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and 5G also
> >> took root amongst the uneducated so vaccine uptake was also lower
> >> there.
> >>
> >> The middle classes by comparison could largely work from home and
> >> took every opportunity to get vaccinated as often as possible.
> >
> > The middle classes were responsible for the development, testing, and
> > distribution of the vaccines more so than the lower classes and upper
> > obviously. So it's not like they're just a bunch of privileged
> > do-nothings. It also points up the importance of the middle class in
> > actually bearing the brunt of the burden to get anything done.
> The privileged classes were all partying in No 10 Downing Street :(
> Or behind closed doors in posh private London clubs.

Dunno how consorting with other dull gluttons can be considered a privilege..

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 21:50:55 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 05/10/2022 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 13:36:37 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>>>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>>>> health care, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>>>> vaccinated.
>>>
>>> Also more likely to ignore social distancing rules or wear masks and so
>>> spread the contagion faster and more efficiently between them.
>>
>> If indeed masks help. They may be talismans, like garlic and vampires.
>>
>> As in "It's better to do SOMETHING."
>
>It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone
>else.

Or it extends the duration of the local epidemic, with side effects.
Or likely does nothing.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 18:04:58 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 10/5/2022 2:40 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 20:23:36 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/4/2022 5:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>> :
>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that Republican-leaning counties have had higher COVID-19 death rates than Democrat- leaning counties and evidence of a link between political party affiliation and vaccination views. This study constructs an individual-level dataset with political affiliation and excess death rates during the COVID-19 pandemic via a linkage of 2017 voter registration in Ohio and Florida to mortality data from 2018 to 2021. We estimate substantially higher excess death rates for registered Republicans when compared to registered Democrats, with almost all of the difference concentrated in the period after vaccines were widely available in our study states. Overall, the excess death rate for Republicans was 5.4 percentage points (pp), or 76%, higher than the excess death rate for Democrats. Post- vaccines, the excess death rate gap between Republicans and Democrats widened from 1.6 pp (22% of the Democrat
>> excess
>>> death rate) to 10.4 pp (153% of the Democrat excess death rate). The gap in excess death rates between Republicans and Democrats is concentrated in counties with low vaccination rates and only materializes after vaccines became widely available.
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
>>>>
>>>> National Bureau of Economic Research
>>>> Conducting and disseminating nonpartisan economic research
>>>
>>> For a time in the 80s it was Republican policy that "so long as we have
>>> more & bigger bombs than the Russians we'll be OK" and people are still
>>> here on the Usenet, so it was clearly an optimal strategy.
>>
>> At the end of WWII, the US proposed a world with no nukes, and Free
>> Skies flyover of the USA and USSR. The russkies refused both.
>>
>
>The thing about proposals from the US government is that people tend not
>to believe them. Hell, lots of Americans don't believe them!

There would of course have to have been an inspection plan. The
russkies refused.

Nukes, at least atmospheric tests, are easily detectable. Even
underground shots are hard to hide.

On 05/10/2022 22:31, Don Y wrote:
> On 10/5/2022 1:50 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone
>> else. Japan and much of the Far East still follow strict mask wearing
>> rules - the Emperor of Japan and his wife wore one at QE II's funeral.
>
> Orientals tend to be more willing to "mask up" even before covid.

It was the norm back when I was there in the 1990's if you had any kind
of respiratory infection. Not going to work wasn't really an option
unless you were at death's door. Their work culture is sufficiently
extreme I knew one guy who used his 2 week annual leave to have a kidney
transplant!
>
> A *good* mask (properly worn along with related hygiene) also does a
> fair job of protecting the wearer.  We'll see how bad cold/flu season is
> this year as less folks are wearing masks.

It has to be a real fitted mask N95 or better.

I have full NBC grade PPE (although no biofilters) but my wife would
disown me if I walked down the high street in that.

> They are still required in most healthcare facilities, here (hospitals,
> doctor offices, etc.).

Just been reinstated in hospitals in the UK last week. We have a steady
1:60 rate of Covid in the community right now threatening to rise as
schools and now universities go back (I expect it will rocket up).

> Many of my friends who had stopped wearing masks found themselves
> infected when they resumed their social activities -- despite being
> doubly *boosted* (on top of doubly vaccinated).

There seem to be a lot more vaccinations in the USA - my expat friends
are on their 4th jab now. I just got the UK default of one of each AZ,
Pfizer separated by about 8 months. It wasn't enough to prevent me
catching it at an event I considered reasonably Covid safe last month.
>
>> The vaccine did a pretty good job of reducing fatalities in the UK
>> once it got rolled out. We only killed 200k instead of the 600+k
>> predicted at the outset in a business as usual scenario.
>>
>> We would have killed a lot less if the Cheltenham Gold Cup and
>> Liverpool vs Real Madrid had been cancelled. Liverpool took nearly 18
>> months to recover from that - they were ravaged all through the first
>> summer.
>>
>> Likewise if they hadn't thrown Covid infected patients into care homes
>> to free up hospital beds without even bothering to test them.
>
> What's sad is that these are FIRST world countries.  It makes you wonder
> how
> we would fare with something far more contagious and deadly (ebola?).

Actually ebola is *much* more lethal but not as infective as Covid if
you know what you are doing. One of the UK's leading ebola experts
(discoverer of the virus) who had worked on it for decades was nearly
killed by getting a Covid infection.

https://www.science.org/content/article/finally-virus-got-me-scientist-who-fought-ebola-and-hiv-reflects-facing-death-covid-19

He also highlights the problem of silent hypoxia creeping up on even a
medically trained expert - you need a buddy to tell you something is
wrong and if necessary intervene directly. It is an interesting read.
>
> "Sure, you can refuse the mask and vaccine.  Step into this line, over
> here -- the one leading to the undertaker's place of business (cuz we
> don't want to have to carry your corpse there, later!)"

Ebola is much more of a problem in the third world but it would be a
real nuisance if it got into a major airport hub for example.
>
> It's also disheartening to see the Monkey Pox results.  C'mon, you
> can't forego sexual contact for a few months to let the disease
> run out of hosts??  (wouldn't it be "amusing" if erectile dysfunction
> was a long term consequence of MP exposure?)

UK seems to have got that one under control now.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 06/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 21:50:55 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/10/2022 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 13:36:37 +0100, Martin Brown
>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>>>>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>>>>> health care, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>>>>> vaccinated.
>>>>
>>>> Also more likely to ignore social distancing rules or wear masks and so
>>>> spread the contagion faster and more efficiently between them.
>>>
>>> If indeed masks help. They may be talismans, like garlic and vampires.
>>>
>>> As in "It's better to do SOMETHING."
>>
>> It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone
>> else.
>
> Or it extends the duration of the local epidemic, with side effects.
> Or likely does nothing.

Ultra-orthodox Jewish community in London took that approach and culled
many of their elders as a direct result. They refused vaccines and had
community antibody levels at 70% when the rest of the UK was at 7%.

https://www.ft.com/content/c5d29294-fdaf-465e-adc9-d4d27b9cbfa9

You may have to search with keywords "Two-thirds of one London Orthodox
Jewish community has had Covid" to get past the FT's paywall.

I suppose if you don't care about vulnerable and old people dying
unnecessarily it is one way to end the pandemic more quickly.

It is God's will - satisfies only the ignorant and superstitious.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/6/2022 1:21 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

>> A *good* mask (properly worn along with related hygiene) also does a
>> fair job of protecting the wearer.  We'll see how bad cold/flu season is
>> this year as less folks are wearing masks.
>
> It has to be a real fitted mask N95 or better.

Easily obtainable, now (and for much of the pandemic). Many folks
still don't wear them properly but that's on them...

> I have full NBC grade PPE (although no biofilters) but my wife would disown me
> if I walked down the high street in that.

A friend started wearing the mask he uses when painting vehicles, as a
joke. It raises a lot of eyebrows!

>> They are still required in most healthcare facilities, here (hospitals,
>> doctor offices, etc.).
>
> Just been reinstated in hospitals in the UK last week. We have a steady 1:60
> rate of Covid in the community right now threatening to rise as schools and now
> universities go back (I expect it will rocket up).

It has been the norm, here, since the start of the pandemic. They are only
recently allowing non-patient "guests" to enter waiting rooms with patients.
My dentist had developed a strategy of having patients wait in their
cars until "fetched" (small waiting room but parking immediately outside
their door)

>> Many of my friends who had stopped wearing masks found themselves
>> infected when they resumed their social activities -- despite being
>> doubly *boosted* (on top of doubly vaccinated).
>
> There seem to be a lot more vaccinations in the USA - my expat friends are on
> their 4th jab now. I just got the UK default of one of each AZ, Pfizer
> separated by about 8 months. It wasn't enough to prevent me catching it at an
> event I considered reasonably Covid safe last month.

I'll get my B variant? booster in a month or two (flu vaccination this month
and I think my immune system would like a chance to recover between all the
kicks it's had in the past few years). Folks who've not received it seem to be
falling prey to the latest variant (though only a week of feeling like shit
followed by a couple of weeks of "recovery" -- I'm not keen on any of that!)

>>> The vaccine did a pretty good job of reducing fatalities in the UK once it
>>> got rolled out. We only killed 200k instead of the 600+k predicted at the
>>> outset in a business as usual scenario.
>>>
>>> We would have killed a lot less if the Cheltenham Gold Cup and Liverpool vs
>>> Real Madrid had been cancelled. Liverpool took nearly 18 months to recover
>>> from that - they were ravaged all through the first summer.
>>>
>>> Likewise if they hadn't thrown Covid infected patients into care homes to
>>> free up hospital beds without even bothering to test them.
>>
>> What's sad is that these are FIRST world countries.  It makes you wonder how
>> we would fare with something far more contagious and deadly (ebola?).
>
> Actually ebola is *much* more lethal but not as infective as Covid if you know
> what you are doing. One of the UK's leading ebola experts (discoverer of the
> virus) who had worked on it for decades was nearly killed by getting a Covid
> infection.

With the denialist attitude, it's likely that many would ignore symptoms
and precautions.

> He also highlights the problem of silent hypoxia creeping up on even a
> medically trained expert - you need a buddy to tell you something is wrong and
> if necessary intervene directly. It is an interesting read.
>>
>> "Sure, you can refuse the mask and vaccine.  Step into this line, over
>> here -- the one leading to the undertaker's place of business (cuz we
>> don't want to have to carry your corpse there, later!)"
>
> Ebola is much more of a problem in the third world but it would be a real
> nuisance if it got into a major airport hub for example.

What the US seems to have realized is that we are woefully ill-equipped to
TRACK diseases. Only certain infections are "reportable" -- and, only then
by healthcare providers. I suspect they had a hard time doing anything
more than maintaining an approximate *count*...

>> It's also disheartening to see the Monkey Pox results.  C'mon, you
>> can't forego sexual contact for a few months to let the disease
>> run out of hosts??  (wouldn't it be "amusing" if erectile dysfunction
>> was a long term consequence of MP exposure?)
>
> UK seems to have got that one under control now.

No idea where it stands, here. My point was to the "I have the freedom to do
anything I want -- and YOU should enable me to do so!"

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:03:17 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 10:04:53 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:49:13 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > On 05/10/2022 13:39, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 4:16:35 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > >> On 05/10/2022 02:20, Don Y wrote:
> > > >>> On 10/4/2022 6:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > >>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > >>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> <snip>
> > > I know a fair number of poorer people who are perfectly intelligent but
> > > for one reason or another did not get a good formal education. I even
> > > know the odd individual who got First class honours and accepted for a
> > > PhD but found life in the real world afterwards too complicated.
> >
> > That 0.001% you're talking about usually end up making a good living for themselves whatever they ended up doing.
> Which 0.001%? The dullard who got First Class honours by remembering everything and understanding just enough? Or the much more numerous group who didn't get the kind of formal education that they could have exploited, and didn't do as much for the rest of soceity as they might have done if they had been trained in way that would have lets the rest of us benefit from the full extent of their abilities?

That's a bunch of baloney- just another excuse to throw money away on a bad investment. The kind of people who benefit "the rest of us" are one in a million in the best of circumstances. But people like you make it sound that nearly everyone raised and living in squalor is a future Nobel Prize winner- like Wilkinson and Smirkface.

> > > > and taking reasonable precautions to avoid infection. But doing the
> > > > simple poor/ not poor comparison plays into the fiction that no one
> > > > is responsible for themselves and everything bad that happens to them
> > > > is a victimization.
> > >
> > > No it is a lot stronger than that. Living in a deprived area produces a
> > > very significant reduction in life expectancy. The UK Covid stats
> > > practically followed the deprivation map based on household income.
> >
> > They have a low life expectancy because they have a low lifestyle that has nothing at all to do with them being "deprived" especially in a country with an NHS. They're probably too ignorant to avail themselves of its services, relying instead on some cockamamy myth of some kind instead.
> Cramped, cold ill-ventilate houses create a low life-style which has everything to do with being deprived. If you've got TB or Covid-19, the NHS can help, but not getting them in the first place helps a lot more.,

Well of course. And tell me just why their living conditions are so cramped.. Could it be the ignorant fools are overpopulating themselves? Then they're mostly a bunch of deceitful sociopaths who mistreat their own kind more than anybody else.

> > > https://news.sky.com/story/life-expectancy-declines-in-england-before-covid-hit-with-big-north-south-divide-new-data-shows-12432798
> > >
> > > And it wasn't all that dissimilar to the Victorian era TB map either.
> > > Overcrowding and inadequate sanitation make diseases spread faster.
> >
> > Especially if the disease is spread by contaminated water, like cholera..
> Even the UK has worked out how to prevent that.
> > TB is an airborne spread respiratory infection. Page 21:
> >
> > https://www.cdc.gov/tb/education/corecurr/pdf/chapter2.pdf
> >
> > Epidemiologists have measured viable and infectious airborne TB bacteria hanging around in a taxi cab for two hours after the sneezing coughing carrier left it.
> >
> > Even the European nobility was coming down with TB all the time and into the 20th century. Maybe they caught it from the servants.
> Or their paid-for sexual partners.
> > The reason it didn't kill absolutely everybody was because people developed immunity to it. Apparently everyone had it. One statistic I read is that some significant percentage ( 50% ???) of Americans of second generation European immigrant descent have TB antibodies.
> Lots of people got vaccinated against TB - the Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG) vaccine has been used since 1921 and I got it in 1960 - so I should have TB antibodies.

Most European immigration to U.S. predates the development and introduction of the vaccine. And therefore so do the TB antibodies ( or more strictly reaction) which were inherited by the descendants through the mothers- and no that doesn't mean DNA inheritance, it means resistance imparted to fetus through blood of the mother in pregnancy.

Possibly- this article states it only remains effective for 20 years. It's hard to develop vaccines for bacteria. Most countries don't mandate its use except in risky circumstances such as travel to an area with high incidence, or countries with a high incidence of TB domestically. Effectiveness at preventing infection is low, but effectiveness at preventing serious disease is high.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCG_vaccine

>
> https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi3001e.htm
> > > > The middle classes were responsible for the development, testing, and
> > > > distribution of the vaccines more so than the lower classes and upper
> > > > obviously. So it's not like they're just a bunch of privileged
> > > > do-nothings. It also points up the importance of the middle class in
> > > > actually bearing the brunt of the burden to get anything done.
> > > The privileged classes were all partying in No 10 Downing Street :(
> > > Or behind closed doors in posh private London clubs.
> >
> > Dunno how consorting with other dull gluttons can be considered a privilege.
> When most people weren't allowed to go out and party at all "consorting with other dull gluttons can be considered a privilege".

What is it with these morons and their propensity to "party?"

If they need to get out of the house, make them pick up litter by the side of the road.

>
> --
> Bil Sloman, Sydney

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 10:29:44 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 1:27:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 10:11:31 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 12:28:27 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 10:27:03 PM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 12:34:54 PM UTC+11, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > On 10/4/2022 9:17 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> :
> > > > > > > >>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
> > > > > > > >> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
> > > > > > > >> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
> > > > > > > >> health care, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
> > > > > > > ????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the US rich people have access to the best health care, and can
> > > > > > > afford the healthiest food.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can buy a two liter of pop at Wal-Mart for 98 cents, but a liter of
> > > > > > > carrot juice will run you $9 at Whole Foods.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They don't call it "Whole Paycheck" for nothing.
> > > > > > Money can't buy health all the time. If you want to be healthy, just eat carrots for 79 cents a pound. Just as healthy as carrot juice, if not better.
> > > > > Too true. But it may be more complicated than Ed Lee thinks
> > > > >
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)
> > > > >
> > > > > talks about the various consequences of economic inequality (the US has more of it than most).
> > > > >
> > > > > In unequal societies the poor have very poor health and the rich do quite a lot better, but the even the rich don't do all that well in very unequal societies like the US, and from a health point of view it's better to be poor in Sweden than it is to be rich in the US.
> > > >
> > > > Everything coming out of Sweden by way of vital statistics is a bald-faced lie.
> > > This is the Gnatguy approach to statistics you don't like. The point about "The Spirit Level" is that it compared a lot of statistics for a whole bunch of advanced industrial countries. Sweden wasn't any kind of outlier, except that it is a bit more egalitarian than most, but nothing dramatic. By contrast, the US is remarkably unequal, and "The Spirit Level" backed up its correlations by comparing more and less ]dramatically unequal US states. It was published in 2009, long before the Covid-19 epidemic.
> > >
> > > > People don't die in Sweden, they just stop breathing. It was their hospital policy to not waste resources on treating serious COVID-19 infection in people older than 72 years. They would wheel them into the morphine ward and euthanize them.
> > >
> > > If you want to be rude about the Swedish health statistics that "The Spirit Level" cited, you should keep in mind that stuff that happened after 2019 didn't get into the book.
> >
> > Both of those authors are well-known left-wing political activists who wrote the book to promote their political agenda. It didn't take five minutes to find a multitude of viable approaches to shoot down every bit of their theses ( rhymes with feces).
> In fact they are well known medical epidemniologists. Their political opinions are incidental, though if you do get immersed in those kinds of statistics right-wing political opinions do start looking remarkably stupid.

Tiny Tim was well-known too. I would be more apt to consider his opinion on the subject first.

>
> Their right wing critics did try to find technical objections. The Wikipedia piece includes one revealing sentence
>
> " Saunders' statistical analysis was also assessed by Hugh Noble, who published an article explaining statistical inference in "The Spirit Level" and assessing the critique offered by Peter Saunders. Noble concluded that the critical analysis of The Spirit Level offered by Peter Saunders 'cannot be taken seriously because it contains so many serious technical flaws'."

Uh-huh- and the useless academic dullards conveniently ignore the fact that these nation paradigms of egalitarian socialism are heavily reliant on and enabled by technologies developed in the very "unequal" societies they criticize so much.

>
> The right wing doesn't like the book. James Arthur has made this clear here in the past, but the objections were at the Gnatguy level.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Thu, 6 Oct 2022 09:26:48 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 06/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 21:50:55 +0100, Martin Brown
>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/10/2022 15:45, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 13:36:37 +0100, Martin Brown
>>>> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/10/2022 03:19, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 18:17:16 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>>>>>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/4/2022 2:24 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>> Political affiliation has emerged as a potential risk factor for COVID-19, amid evidence that
>>>>>>>> This is likely purely a consequence of differences in vaccination rates. I.e.,
>>>>>>>> one could probably find a similar correlation between intelligence, proactive
>>>>>>>> health care, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or perhaps because Republicans are richer. And rich people are generally poor in health. Or they are watching more TV, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conservatives are less afraid than liberals. So less likely to get
>>>>>> vaccinated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also more likely to ignore social distancing rules or wear masks and so
>>>>> spread the contagion faster and more efficiently between them.
>>>>
>>>> If indeed masks help. They may be talismans, like garlic and vampires.
>>>>
>>>> As in "It's better to do SOMETHING."
>>>
>>> It mainly stops the mask wearer transmitting the disease to someone
>>> else.
>>
>> Or it extends the duration of the local epidemic, with side effects.
>> Or likely does nothing.
>
>Ultra-orthodox Jewish community in London took that approach and culled
>many of their elders as a direct result. They refused vaccines and had
>community antibody levels at 70% when the rest of the UK was at 7%.

Vaccines are not the same as masks.