On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>
>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>
>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>
>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>> of wussies.
>>
>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>
>
>Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.

You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
disagrees.

I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.

After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
by republicans.

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:45:42 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 4:59:40 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:51:08 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > On 10/11/2022 12:44, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:33:36 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:41:36 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > >> The mRNA vaccines were the only ones that really came through. The
> > > >> others, like the J&J/Janssen ( Scandinavians lie about everything
> > > >> so their flop is to be expected) and AstraZeneca , vector vaccines,
> > > >> were all flops by comparison.
> > > >
> > > > The Oxford Astra-Zeneca vaccine worked fine. It had different parts
> > > > per million side effects from the mRNA vaccines, but generated
> > > > exactly the same antigens in the human body as the mRNA vaccines.
> > > It was slightly different in two fundamental ways:
> > >
> > > 1. mRNA was less inclined to cause blood clots in the young.
> > > 2. mRNA gave 95% protection from catching original Covid vs 66-75% for
> > > AZ/J&J (depending on whose numbers you believe)
> > >
> > > Both vaccine technologies cut the risk of fatal illness by more than an
> > > order of magnitude. Unclear how good the Russian or Chinese ones are.
> > >
> > > Pfizer had first mover advantage, whilst AZ had the advantage of easier
> > > manufacture and much less stringent cold chain requirements. Moderna was
> > > in the middle ground. Several others were minor bit players.
> > >
> > > Moderna is now suing Pfizer for patent infringement - we will have to
> > > see how far that goes. If there is any merit in their case.
> > > > Fred doesn't like it because it fed less money into American
> > > > share-holders pockets.
> > > AZ was initially done at cost during the main pandemic.
> > > Something that they took a lot of flack for.
> >
> > Cost savings in supply chain maintenance and all the other advantages touted are dwarfed into oblivion by the additional health care burden due to their 25 point failing in efficacy. It's a cheap buy-in but an expensive lifecycle cost. Another important advantage of mRNA is it can be indefinitely boosted, and new mRNA in response to emerging variants of concern can be produced rapidly.
> Both technologies tell your cells to synthesise a version of the spike protein. Both the mRNA sequences and the viral vector can be constructed to direct the synthesis of any more or less arbitrary protein.

The viral vector is integrated into the host cell nucleus and from there expresses the mRNA to direct the mitochondria in expression of the spike protein. The only reason they do that round about route is because it predates the development of methods to insert the mRNA directly into the cell, skipping the nucleus integration- which is a very involved multi-phase process in itself. What kind of dinosaur would do that these days? Maybe some nuts at Oxford who also spend their free time reading Medieval romance.

>
> One has to suspect that the difference in efficacy has more to do with the Covid-19 variatant around at the time and place they were tested than any difference in the way the vaccines persuades your cells to make the same protein.

LOL_ laughable conjecture- especially when both mRNA and Oxford vaccines are administered simultaneously into the same population groups with consistent results. The odds of that happening by chance are as phenomenally small as your chance of regaining coherence.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 6:45:07 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 9:50:56 PM UTC+11, Martin Brown wrote:
> > On 10/11/2022 17:59, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:51:08 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> > >> On 10/11/2022 12:44, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:33:36 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:41:36 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Only the new bivalent ones
> > stand a chance against Omicron but uptake in the UK is rather limited.
> When I went i to my local chemist in Sydney, I noticed that he is now offering the bivalent Moderna vaccine, and got jabbed on the spot - the chemist is plugged into the Australian Medicare system, so it went straight onto my Covid-19 vaccination record. which I can print out if I need it. It got paid for by Medicare as well, which helpos the uptake.
>
> I didn't feel all that great today, but it was no worse than the four previous jabs,
> > Israel that opted for a monoculture of Pfizer fared surprisingly badly
> > (in part due to their ultra-orthodox refuseniks with a death wish).
> >
> > Perfect breeding ground for a vaccine escape strain.
> > > expensive lifecycle cost. Another important advantage of mRNA is it
> > > can be indefinitely boosted, and new mRNA in response to emerging
> > > variants of concern can be produced rapidly.
> Also true of the virus vector vaccines.

There is not a single virus vector covalent booster out there.

> > Going forward I expect that the mRNA technology will win out -
> > particularly the Moderna variant which has a more stable emulsion.
> >
> > However, the disease has now passed the point of becoming endemic and UK
> > has a steady baseline of 1M people infected each week with a cyclic peak
> > that seems to be decreasing in amplitude every 4 months. It has been
> > like this since the start of the year when Omicron became dominant.
> >
> > https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England
> The bivalent vaccines should help, but people are oddly reluctant to get jabbed.

Probably because the Omicron is so mild no one is going to bother.

If the Omicron was all they had to contend with for a pandemic, it wouldn't have been called a pandemic and no one would have bothered to do anything about it.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:19:10 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> >
> >>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
> >>>>
> >>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
> >>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
> >>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
> >>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
> >>>
> >>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
> >>> of wussies.
> >>
> >> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
> >>
> >
> >Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
> >their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
> disagrees.
>
> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>
> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
> by republicans.

Farmers love Democrats because it's mainly Democrats getting them all their subsidies and trade protections. Republicans are more in to the corporate farming crowd.

On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>
>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>
>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>
>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>>> of wussies.
>>>
>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
>
> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
> disagrees.
>
> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>
> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
> by republicans.
>

Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
for all Trump-cultists."

Fate worse than death, I suppose..

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 16:40:12 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>>
>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>>>> of wussies.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
>>
>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
>> disagrees.
>>
>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>>
>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
>> by republicans.
>>
>
>Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
>ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
>for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
>age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
>for all Trump-cultists."

Of course that's what you meant by "burn their whole world to
ashes".

My mistake.

On 11/11/2022 5:37 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 16:40:12 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>>>>> of wussies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
>>>
>>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
>>> disagrees.
>>>
>>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>>>
>>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
>>> by republicans.
>>>
>>
>> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
>> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
>> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
>> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
>> for all Trump-cultists."
>
> Of course that's what you meant by "burn their whole world to
> ashes".
>
> My mistake.
>

There were the Covid lies and bizarre anti-vaccine propaganda that
killed thousands of conservatives, and then there was the
elections-are-rigged propaganda (doesn't help voter turnout much), and
then there were the many recent threats to end Social Security, which
can't have been too appealing to the millions of conservatives on Social
Security (at least the semi-conscious ones.)

You're right. the GOP probably doesn't need my help.

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
> >>>>>
> >>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
> >>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
> >>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
> >>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
> >>>>
> >>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
> >>>> of wussies.
> >>>
> >>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
> >> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
> >
> > You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
> > disagrees.
> >
> > I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
> >
> > After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
> > by republicans.
> >
> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
> for all Trump-cultists."
>
> Fate worse than death, I suppose..

Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 19:45:15 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 11/11/2022 5:37 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 16:40:12 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>>>>>> of wussies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>>>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
>>>>
>>>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
>>>> disagrees.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>>>>
>>>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
>>>> by republicans.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
>>> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
>>> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
>>> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
>>> for all Trump-cultists."
>>
>> Of course that's what you meant by "burn their whole world to
>> ashes".
>>
>> My mistake.
>>
>
>There were the Covid lies and bizarre anti-vaccine propaganda that
>killed thousands of conservatives, and then there was the
>elections-are-rigged propaganda (doesn't help voter turnout much), and
>then there were the many recent threats to end Social Security, which
>can't have been too appealing to the millions of conservatives on Social
>Security (at least the semi-conscious ones.)
>
>You're right. the GOP probably doesn't need my help.

Gosh, you are a nasty person.

On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
>>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
>>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
>>>>>> of wussies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
>>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
>>>
>>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
>>> disagrees.
>>>
>>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>>>
>>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
>>> by republicans.
>>>
>> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
>> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
>> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
>> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
>> for all Trump-cultists."
>>
>> Fate worse than death, I suppose..
>
> Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.

I don't thin there is anything like free health care in any developed
country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government
services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for
a sane society.

John :-#)#

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
> >>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
> >>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
> >>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
> >>>>>> of wussies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
> >>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
> >>>
> >>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
> >>> disagrees.
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
> >>>
> >>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
> >>> by republicans.
> >>>
> >> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
> >> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
> >> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
> >> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
> >> for all Trump-cultists."
> >>
> >> Fate worse than death, I suppose..
> >
> > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> I don't thin there is anything like free health care in any developed
> country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government
> services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for
> a sane society.
>
> John :-#)#

Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:39:41 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:27:22 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:12:01 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > Evidence:
> > > > Joe Biden's approval numbers have dropped by 4% in ONE MONTH! Voters call him out of touch (was he every IN TOUCH?).
> > >
> > > Was Gnatguy ever in touch? He's firmly coupled to the Republican propaganda machine, and full of the information they want to give him.
> > >
> > > > The majority of voters say the economy is their Number One issue ("It's all about the economy, STUPID!). 72% say the country is on the WRONG TRACK. 75% of voters think that we ARE NOW in a recession.
> > >
> > > If Trump had mishandled the Covid-19 epidemic less distastrously. the US economy might now be in better shape, but Gnatguy wants to blame the guys in charge right now. because they are all Democrats.
> > >
> > > > https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/02/politics/cnn-poll-democrats-midterm-elections/index.html
> > > >
> > > > The NH senate race of Hassen vs Bolduc has made a TEN POINT swing in just ONE MONTH in favor of GOP Bolduc!
> > > > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2022/senate/nh/new-hampshire-senate-bolduc-vs-hassan-7379.html
> > >
> > > Gnatguy does love his cherry-picking. Of course Hassen is now back in front, if not by much.
> > >
> > This is representative of virtually ALL of the close races.
>
> Gnatguy can't tell the difference between any of them.
>
> > You sound EXACTLY like the rest of the libtards - you can't come up with ANY of Joe Biden policies that have made people's lives measurably better, so you are resorting to BLAMING TRUMP! HELLO: Trump HAS NOT been president for the last TWO YEARS, and Joe Biden HAS!!!
>
> Nobody would be silly enough to try to tell you anything that suggested that Joe Biden was doing a decent job. He's a Democrat.

Hey Bozo, all we have to do is look at the numbers: senile pervert Lyin' Biden is responsible for:
1. The highest rate of inflation in decades
2. Putin's invasion of Ukraine
3. An historic decline in American's net worth
4. A recession
5. Rampant crime wave
6. An unprecedented invasion of illegals from the south border
7. Not holding China responsible for COVID coming from the Wuhan lab
8. Massive decline in primary education levels
9. American's malaise over their future
10. Unprecedented corruption at the highest levels
Fortunately, help is on he way with Republicans regaining control.

On 2022-11-12 07:01, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their
>>>>>>>> opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want
>>>>>>> regular-conservatives to like them enough so they can
>>>>>>> whine to them about health care like "Whyyyy you guys,
>>>>>>> like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
>>>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly
>>>>>>> - what a bunch of wussies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I
>>>>> want to burn their whole world to ashes, and erase their
>>>>> party from history.
>>>>
>>>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone
>>>> who disagrees.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
>>>>
>>>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food
>>>> grown by republicans.
>>>>
>>> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole
>>> world to ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be
>>> required to help pay for the wing nut boomer's universal
>>> healthcare expenses in their old age, and routine high quality
>>> and compassionate mental health treatment for all
>>> Trump-cultists."
>>>
>>> Fate worse than death, I suppose..
>>
>> Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and
>> free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as
>> far as we can see.
>
> I don't thin there is anything like free health care in any developed
> country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other
> government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the
> essentials for a sane society.
>
> John :-#)#

Of course it isn't free in that sense. Of course it has to be paid
through some form of taxes, social security or obligatory insurance.
The point is that when you need medical help, you'll get it without
first having to jump through hoops to prove that you can afford it.

Jeroen Belleman

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 9:48:53 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:24:52 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:45:42 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 4:59:40 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:51:08 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > > > On 10/11/2022 12:44, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:33:36 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 12:41:36 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> The mRNA vaccines were the only ones that really came through. The
> > > > > >> others, like the J&J/Janssen ( Scandinavians lie about everything
> > > > > >> so their flop is to be expected) and AstraZeneca , vector vaccines,
> > > > > >> were all flops by comparison.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Oxford Astra-Zeneca vaccine worked fine. It had different parts
> > > > > > per million side effects from the mRNA vaccines, but generated
> > > > > > exactly the same antigens in the human body as the mRNA vaccines.
> > > > > It was slightly different in two fundamental ways:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. mRNA was less inclined to cause blood clots in the young.
> > > > > 2. mRNA gave 95% protection from catching original Covid vs 66-75% for
> > > > > AZ/J&J (depending on whose numbers you believe)
> > > > >
> > > > > Both vaccine technologies cut the risk of fatal illness by more than an
> > > > > order of magnitude. Unclear how good the Russian or Chinese ones are.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pfizer had first mover advantage, whilst AZ had the advantage of easier
> > > > > manufacture and much less stringent cold chain requirements. Moderna was
> > > > > in the middle ground. Several others were minor bit players.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moderna is now suing Pfizer for patent infringement - we will have to
> > > > > see how far that goes. If there is any merit in their case.
> > > > > > Fred doesn't like it because it fed less money into American
> > > > > > share-holders pockets.
> > > > > AZ was initially done at cost during the main pandemic.
> > > > > Something that they took a lot of flack for.
> > > >
> > > > Cost savings in supply chain maintenance and all the other advantages touted are dwarfed into oblivion by the additional health care burden due to their 25 point failing in efficacy. It's a cheap buy-in but an expensive lifecycle cost. Another important advantage of mRNA is it can be indefinitely boosted, and new mRNA in response to emerging variants of concern can be produced rapidly.
> > >
> > > Both technologies tell your cells to synthesise a version of the spike protein. Both the mRNA sequences and the viral vector can be constructed to direct the synthesis of any more or less arbitrary protein.
> >
> > The viral vector is integrated into the host cell nucleus and from there expresses the mRNA to direct the mitochondria in expression of the spike protein.
> The virus vector isn't "integrated" into the cell nucleus - it just gets there and hijacks part of the cell protein synthesisng machinery, only slightly less directly than by exposing to messenger RNA.

Not sure I've seen such an overconfident and ignorant person as you so cocksure of himself. The viral DNA is in fact integrated into the nucleus DNA. The enzyme for catalyzing the process is called integrase, surprisingly enough. It doesn't "just get there."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC98978/
moron
The hijack metaphor is to make things sound interesting to the attention disordered like yourself, but it mainly refers to blocking biochemical process signaling pathways into the cell causing it to do something the virus doesn't want, like apoptosis.

> > The only reason they do that round about route is because it predates the development of methods to insert the mRNA directly into the cell, skipping the nucleus integration- which is a very involved multi-phase process in itself. What kind of dinosaur would do that these days? Maybe some nuts at Oxford who also spend their free time reading Medieval romance.
> It produces a vaccine that is easier to distribute - the mRA vaccines have to be cooled dry ice until the y get very close to being jabbed into shoulders.

It's been quite some time, like over a 100 years, since refrigeration was problem. We don't cut ice blocks out of streams and lakes anymore either...

> > > One has to suspect that the difference in efficacy has more to do with the Covid-19 variatant around at the time and place they were tested than any difference in the way the vaccines persuades your cells to make the same protein.
>
> > LOL_ laughable conjecture- especially when both mRNA and Oxford vaccines are administered simultaneously into the same population groups with consistent results. The odds of that happening by chance are as phenomenally small as your chance of regaining coherence.
> They obviously weren't administered into the same population groups at the same time. That would have produced results that were impossible to decipher,
>
> They were administered to different groups of people in different places at much the same time. The Covid-19 variants circulating in these different areas at the time won't have been uniform. Most of the clinical trials were spread across several countries, adding even more variation.

You're just not getting it. I don't know about Australia but in U.S. the public health mass vaccination events gave people a choice: Pfizer, go down this aisle- Moderna use this other aisle- J&J use a third aisle. Everything is registered and recorded by CDC vaccine management system, making it quite possible to ascertain the effectiveness of the vaccines in prospective cohort mode.

>
> You own coherence isn't impressive, though you do seem to share Gnatguy's ill-placed self-confidence.

---
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I don't hate Republicans. But I don't understand their opposition to healthcare. That's just nuts!
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Right, libs are wussy conservatives, and want regular-conservatives to
> > > >>>>>> like them enough so they can whine to them about health care like
> > > >>>>>> "Whyyyy you guys, like we could be friends and you could rule me all you
> > > >>>>>> like if you just compromised with me on this"
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> LOL I don't blame the wing nuts for not listening frankly - what a bunch
> > > >>>>>> of wussies.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Wow, talk about someone being a caricature of himself!
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Yes, I'm not interested in compromising with Republicans! I want to burn
> > > >>>> their whole world to ashes, and erase their party from history.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You are all wise so should control everything. Just kill anyone who
> > > >>> disagrees.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm sure you design the best possible electronics too.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> After you burn down their world, you won't have to eat any food grown
> > > >>> by republicans.
> > > >>>
> > > >> Who said anything about killing anyone? By "burn their whole world to
> > > >> ashes" I mean "It will be the law that I will be required to help pay
> > > >> for the wing nut boomer's universal healthcare expenses in their old
> > > >> age, and routine high quality and compassionate mental health treatment
> > > >> for all Trump-cultists."
> > > >>
> > > >> Fate worse than death, I suppose..
> > > >
> > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > I don't thin there is anything like free health care in any developed
> > > country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government
> > > services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for
> > > a sane society.
> >
> > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.

Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy? All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.

With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.

>
> As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.

No one is denied health care in U.S.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:18:12 AM UTC-5, Flyguy wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:39:41 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:27:22 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:12:01 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > Evidence:
> > > > > Joe Biden's approval numbers have dropped by 4% in ONE MONTH! Voters call him out of touch (was he every IN TOUCH?).
> > > >
> > > > Was Gnatguy ever in touch? He's firmly coupled to the Republican propaganda machine, and full of the information they want to give him.
> > > >
> > > > > The majority of voters say the economy is their Number One issue ("It's all about the economy, STUPID!). 72% say the country is on the WRONG TRACK. 75% of voters think that we ARE NOW in a recession.
> > > >
> > > > If Trump had mishandled the Covid-19 epidemic less distastrously. the US economy might now be in better shape, but Gnatguy wants to blame the guys in charge right now. because they are all Democrats.
> > > >
> > > > > https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/02/politics/cnn-poll-democrats-midterm-elections/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > The NH senate race of Hassen vs Bolduc has made a TEN POINT swing in just ONE MONTH in favor of GOP Bolduc!
> > > > > https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2022/senate/nh/new-hampshire-senate-bolduc-vs-hassan-7379.html
> > > >
> > > > Gnatguy does love his cherry-picking. Of course Hassen is now back in front, if not by much.
> > > >
> > > This is representative of virtually ALL of the close races.
> >
> > Gnatguy can't tell the difference between any of them.
> >
> > > You sound EXACTLY like the rest of the libtards - you can't come up with ANY of Joe Biden policies that have made people's lives measurably better, so you are resorting to BLAMING TRUMP! HELLO: Trump HAS NOT been president for the last TWO YEARS, and Joe Biden HAS!!!

It doesn't take a genius to come up with numerous policies of the Trump administration that made life measurable worse for everybody.
> >
> > Nobody would be silly enough to try to tell you anything that suggested that Joe Biden was doing a decent job. He's a Democrat.
> Hey Bozo, all we have to do is look at the numbers: senile pervert Lyin' Biden is responsible for:
> 1. The highest rate of inflation in decades
> 2. Putin's invasion of Ukraine
> 3. An historic decline in American's net worth
> 4. A recession
> 5. Rampant crime wave
> 6. An unprecedented invasion of illegals from the south border
> 7. Not holding China responsible for COVID coming from the Wuhan lab
> 8. Massive decline in primary education levels
> 9. American's malaise over their future
> 10. Unprecedented corruption at the highest levels
> Fortunately, help is on he way with Republicans regaining control.

Each and every one of those issues is unmitigated hysteria foisted on the more ignorant members of the American public by junk news media for the purpose of selling copy. And do you even know what a malaise is? It doesn't apply to psychological pessimism. You're also fixated on inappropriate use of the word, unprecedented. And would you look at those superlatives. The only thing inflated around here is your belief that you actually understand anything. You're a dupe.

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 5:54:54 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > >
> > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > >
> > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> >
> > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counselling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.
>
> If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.
> > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behaviour, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.
>
> The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see fro the number Americans who are oveweight.
> > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
>
> puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do test us the basis of your criterion.
> > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.
>
> > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.

Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.

Regarding free higher education, it should be debated, passed and funded by congress, not just executive order.

Free stuffs are nice, but how are we going to pay for them.

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > >
> > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > >
> > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> >
> > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counselling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.

Life expectancy is a measure of the health of the population. Unless the place is a complete wreck, lots of people untreated, it has little to do with health care delivery. Can you find where it says otherwise here:

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/health-conditions-disability-deaths/life-expectancy-deaths/overview

So unless you can show the U.S. is full of people with diagnosed but untreated illness, your evaluation of their health care system is baseless.

>
> If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.

Doesn't follow.

> > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behaviour, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.

People in that age group aren't receptive to that kind of message. They think they're immortal.

>
> The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see fro the number Americans who are oveweight.

That probably has more to do with the convenience, ready availability, and low cost of fattening diets, in addition to a 24/7 marketing blitz pushing that kind of food. It has nothing to do with health care delivery.

> > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
>
> puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do test us the basis of your criterion.
> > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.
>
> > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.

The law entitles everyone to emergency care. The poor have Medicaid for standard care. Doctors tend to lose enthusiasm for treating patients who remain obviously non-compliant to their advice, or sell their prescription meds on the black market. Other than that there is no reason whatsoever the poor can't get the exact same treatment as the privately insured.

>
> Naomi Klein has talked about having had a car accident in New Orleans when covering Hurricane Katrina and having got brilliant treatment in an empty private hospital,when the less well-off locals were getting inadequate health care in emergency accommodation.
>
> https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/50896/411348-Hospitals-in-Hurricane-Katrina.PDF

That airhead doesn't know what she's talking about- she's totally oblivious to reality. New Orleans was a disaster area so of course you can expect the medical facilities to be improvised. How would she know if anyone's care was inadequate. In that particular situation housing patients in field tents with collapsible cots for beds is plenty adequate.

And what other than a trauma injury put people in the hospital after the hurricane? Maybe they cut their knee on the glass they broke during a looting or something.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 10:41:22 AM UTC-5, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 5:54:54 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> > >
> > > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> > The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counselling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.
> >
> > If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.
> > > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> > But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behaviour, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.
> >
> > The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see fro the number Americans who are oveweight.
> > > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> > https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
> >
> > puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do test us the basis of your criterion.
> > > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.
> >
> > > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> > Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.
> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
>
> Regarding free higher education, it should be debated, passed and funded by congress, not just executive order.

That's not how this country works. The authority to act is delegated by Congressional legislation all the time. You can't have the executive branch running to Congress for a central government like approval of every little thing they do. That is what sets governments like the U.S. apart from horrific hellholes like Russia, another bunch of great believers in centralized control. The Biden administration believed the HEROES Act gave them that authority, and actually it did. The poorly educated and mentally unstable redneck judge in Texas is the one who will get vacated. He's a district judge, handles trials, one level below the appeals system. The Biden administration has already filed an appeal which can be decided preliminarily without waiting months or years for the process of a hearing.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10818

As usual it's just a bunch of conflab about nothing to get a bunch of people who don't know anything all riled up.

>
> Free stuffs are nice, but how are we going to pay for them.

Who gives a damn... they'll obviously worry about that later.

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:41:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example..net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > > > >
> > > > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> > > >
> > > > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> > >
> > > The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counseling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.
> >
> > Life expectancy is a measure of the health of the population. Unless the place is a complete wreck, lots of people untreated, it has little to do with health care delivery. Can you find where it says otherwise here:
> >
> > https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/health-conditions-disability-deaths/life-expectancy-deaths/overview
> Why would they bother? Australia isn't any kind of wealth care wreck.
> >
> > So unless you can show the U.S. is full of people with diagnosed but untreated illness, your evaluation of their health care system is baseless.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
>
> That was easy. How come you haven't noticed?

That has nothing to do with health care.

> > > If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.
> >
> > Doesn't follow.
> Or you are unwilling to admit that it does.
> > > > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> >
> > > But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behavior, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.
> >
> > People in that age group aren't receptive to that kind of message. They think they're immortal.
> Not all of them by any means. Many fewer kids smoke now than they did when we were young.

That's because of a lot of other changes such as: price of cigarettes is high especially for juveniles, only people 21 years of age or older can legally buy cigarettes, smoking is now forbidden in a lot places where it was once allowed, social stigma, loss of employment opportunity- some employers won't consider smokers for employment, other have gone so far as terminating employees who fail to quit within a specified timeframe, there are a multitude of reasons making smoking a big hassle. None of them have to do with a health based conviction.
>
> > > The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see from the number Americans who are overweight.
> > That probably has more to do with the convenience, ready availability, and low cost of fattening diets, in addition to a 24/7 marketing blitz pushing that kind of food. It has nothing to do with health care delivery.
> The tobacco companies used to be able to get away with that kind of marketing. The health care system was able to exert enough influence to get them forced to cut back. The fast food industry ought to be equally vulnerable - except of course that it makes even more money, and in the US money talks particularly loudly.

None of that has to do with health care delivery.

> > > > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> > > https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
> > >
> > > puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do tell us the basis of your conclusion. At the moment it is a bald assertion of the kind that Gnaguy goes in for.
> > .>
> > > > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.
> > >
> > > > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> > >
> > > Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.
> >
> > The law entitles everyone to emergency care.
> Emergency care is designed to stop you dying on the spot. It isn't designed to get people cured from the the disorder that brought them in.

People are only very rarely "cured" of a disorder that got to the point of requiring emergency care.

> >The poor have Medicaid for standard care. Doctors tend to lose enthusiasm for treating patients who remain obviously non-compliant to their advice, or sell their prescription meds on the black market. Other than that there is no reason whatsoever the poor can't get the exact same treatment as the privately insured.
> So treating the poor is more difficult that treating the well off, and America doesn't bother. That 's exactly why drug-resistant tuberculosis got established in the US at about the same time as it started showing up in third world countries. This did emphasise that the health system has to deal with the health of the population as whole, as opposed to the health of the well-off who are easier and more profitable to treat.

That is such a pathetically old and obvious observation that it's not worth comment. Drug resistant TB was brought into this country by immigrants, they're still bringing it with them, along with polio recently.

> > > Naomi Klein has talked about having had a car accident in New Orleans when covering Hurricane Katrina and having got brilliant treatment in an empty private hospital,when the less well-off locals were getting inadequate health care in emergency accommodation.
> > >
> > > https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/50896/411348-Hospitals-in-Hurricane-Katrina.PDF
> >
> > That airhead doesn't know what she's talking about- she's totally oblivious to reality.
> Only a rightwing airhead would be silly enough to claim that Naomi Klein was "oblivious to reality".
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein

She's completely out of touch with reality. Her bio even admits she was raised in a pro-Stalinist communistic family, and it influenced her greatly. This isn't the 1960s anymore when people though communism was so cool. Klein is washed up.

>
> She thinks that people like you ignore realities that they don't like, which you resent, but she's right.
> > New Orleans was a disaster area so of course you can expect the medical facilities to be improvised. How would she know if anyone's care was inadequate. In that particular situation housing patients in field tents with collapsible cots for beds is plenty adequate.
> She was pointing out that she got to exploit super-adequate medical facilities that weren't being exploited to help out people who desperately needed them.

If they opened the facilities for everyone they would soon get to the point of not being able to help anyone. The woman is an idiot not worth listening to.

> >
> > And what other than a trauma injury put people in the hospital after the hurricane? Maybe they cut their knee on the glass they broke during a looting or something.
> Quite a few of them were in hospital before the hurricane, and needed help when their hospitals got flooded or lost power or ran out of supplies. as is pointed out in the link I posted and you've ignored.

On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:

> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.

They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
seen the inside of one lately, either..

Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.

You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.

On 11/12/2022 8:56 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

>> The law entitles everyone to emergency care.
>
> Emergency care is designed to stop you dying on the spot. It isn't designed to get people cured from the the disorder that brought them in.

Emergency departments in the US are pretty good at recognizing the
drug-addicted looking for drugs and they'll let them sweat it out in the
waiting room, dropped to the very end of the priority queue, hopping up
and down begging the lady behind the window "Please..I'm in pain..I'm
dying here..I've been here five hours..." every 15 min making the other
patients waiting miserable, until one of three things happen, they get
really agitated/violent and are slammed to the ground by security and
taken to jail, they leave in frustration, or they collapse

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>
>> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
>
>They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
>think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
>seen the inside of one lately, either..
>
>Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
>expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
>less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
>
>You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
>

I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.

Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.

Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >
> >> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> >
> >They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> >think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> >seen the inside of one lately, either..
> >
> >Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> >expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> >less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
> >
> >You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
> >
> I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
> great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
> have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
> the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
>
> Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
> for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
>
> Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
> for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.

Experiences differ depending on where you are. I recently accompanied my brother to the ER at the insistence of his PCP. Arrived around noon after we left the PCP's office. We had to wait in the 'over flow' room. Four hrs after arrival they took my brother for blood sample urine sample, and vitals.. Six hours after that, he was seen by an ER doc and then told to wait in the waiting room till they determined if they had a bed for him. Three hours after that (we are up to 13 hrs) they 'found' a bed for him in the hallway of the ER area. So as I leave through the ER at approximately 2AM, the waiting room looked like a homeless shelter. I asked the nurse what gives and she wryly said it is the poors' health care system.....And this was in a hospital in the more 'upscale' area of the city, which is close to the more undesirable parts of the city.
A day later they found a semiprivate room for him where he stayed for 2 days...and then at the insistence of one of the attendies and his PCP, he was moved to 'a better floor' and a private room...

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 1:28:02 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>
> > Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> seen the inside of one lately, either..
>
> Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
>
> You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.

Those were pandemic conditions, the hospital was swamped with lunatic anti-vaxxers sick with COVID.