On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >
> >> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> >
> >They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> >think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> >seen the inside of one lately, either..
> >
> >Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> >expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> >less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
> >
> >You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
> >
> I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
> great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
> have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
> the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
>
> Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
> for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
>
> Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
> for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.

Is there some medical reason for requiring a private room? I think not. The hospitals need to go back to using large wards. If someone has a problem with that, they can go somewhere else. The hospital can increase their capacity 4x, which just might explain the private room allowance.

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:43:28 PM UTC-5, three_jeeps wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > >
> > >> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> > >
> > >They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> > >think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> > >seen the inside of one lately, either..
> > >
> > >Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> > >expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> > >less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
> > >
> > >You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
> > >
> > I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
> > great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
> > have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
> > the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
> >
> > Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
> > for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
> >
> > Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
> > for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.
> Experiences differ depending on where you are. I recently accompanied my brother to the ER at the insistence of his PCP. Arrived around noon after we left the PCP's office. We had to wait in the 'over flow' room. Four hrs after arrival they took my brother for blood sample urine sample, and vitals.. Six hours after that, he was seen by an ER doc and then told to wait in the waiting room till they determined if they had a bed for him. Three hours after that (we are up to 13 hrs) they 'found' a bed for him in the hallway of the ER area. So as I leave through the ER at approximately 2AM, the waiting room looked like a homeless shelter. I asked the nurse what gives and she wryly said it is the poors' health care system.....And this was in a hospital in the more 'upscale' area of the city, which is close to the more undesirable parts of the city.
> A day later they found a semiprivate room for him where he stayed for 2 days...and then at the insistence of one of the attendies and his PCP, he was moved to 'a better floor' and a private room...

Floors are organized by the medical condition and required treatment of the patients, much of which requires specialized certification of the hospital staff to administer, as well as specialized instrumentation and equipment. It's most efficient to have that and the people all in one place. There's no such thing as a 'better' floor. It's not a status symbol.

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:35:33 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > >
> > >> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> > >
> > >They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> > >think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> > >seen the inside of one lately, either..
> > >
> > >Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> > >expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> > >less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
> > >
> > >You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
> > >
> > I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
> > great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
> > have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
> > the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
> >
> > Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
> > for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
> >
> > Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
> > for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.
> Is there some medical reason for requiring a private room? I think not. The hospitals need to go back to using large wards. If someone has a problem with that, they can go somewhere else. The hospital can increase their capacity 4x, which just might explain the private room allowance.

You are a funny guy. You should take your act on the road!

LOL

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.

Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:14:27 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:35:33 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
> > > On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
> > > >
> > > >They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
> > > >think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
> > > >seen the inside of one lately, either..
> > > >
> > > >Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
> > > >expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
> > > >less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
> > > >
> > > >You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
> > > >
> > > I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
> > > great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
> > > have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
> > > the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
> > >
> > > Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
> > > for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
> > >
> > > Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
> > > for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.
> > Is there some medical reason for requiring a private room? I think not. The hospitals need to go back to using large wards. If someone has a problem with that, they can go somewhere else. The hospital can increase their capacity 4x, which just might explain the private room allowance.
> You are a funny guy. You should take your act on the road!
>
> LOL

It's in poor taste to laugh at your own jokes.

There's a negligible decease in HAIs ( hospitable acquired infections ) but a 30% increased chance of getting infected if the previous tenant had MRSA..

>
> Rick C.
>
> +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:17:50 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.
>
> Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.

The GOP will eject Trump. It's turned into a menagerie of freaks:
https://nypost.com/2022/11/11/trump-voters-are-done-with-ex-president-he-needs-to-disappear/

> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> +-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> +-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:45:22 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:17:50 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.
> >
> > Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.
> The GOP will eject Trump. It's turned into a menagerie of freaks:
> https://nypost.com/2022/11/11/trump-voters-are-done-with-ex-president-he-needs-to-disappear/

How did Rump get into this conversation?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 11/13/2022 7:17 PM, Ricky wrote:
> In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.
>
> Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.
>

The good news about elections is that whoever wins, they get a bunch of
dangerous people off the streets and into Congress for two to six year
sentences

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 1:05:46 AM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:45:22 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 7:17:50 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
> > > In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.
> > >
> > > Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.
> > The GOP will eject Trump. It's turned into a menagerie of freaks:
> > https://nypost.com/2022/11/11/trump-voters-are-done-with-ex-president-he-needs-to-disappear/
> How did Rump get into this conversation?

Republicans are blaming every single one their losses on him, so that's how he's pertinent to the "conversation."

>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 1:52:28 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
> On 11/13/2022 7:17 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > In case anyone wants to discuss the topic of the thread, it seems Nevada did not flip for the Republican Senatorial candidate. They have declared the Democrat candidate the winner, so the Dims have at least 50 votes in the Senate and the Republicans become irrelevant.
> >
> > Now, if Georgia can find their way to reason, the Dims won't have to worry about renegades making life tough in the Senate.
> >
> The good news about elections is that whoever wins, they get a bunch of
> dangerous people off the streets and into Congress for two to six year
> sentences

You're going to have to come up with better material than that if you expect to make the late night talk show circuit...

On 12/11/2022 02:48, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:24:52 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs
> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:45:42 PM UTC-5,
>> bill....@ieee.org wrote:

>>> Both technologies tell your cells to synthesise a version of the
>>> spike protein. Both the mRNA sequences and the viral vector can
>>> be constructed to direct the synthesis of any more or less
>>> arbitrary protein.
>>
>> The viral vector is integrated into the host cell nucleus and from
>> there expresses the mRNA to direct the mitochondria in expression
>> of the spike protein.
>
> The virus vector isn't "integrated" into the cell nucleus - it just
> gets there and hijacks part of the cell protein synthesisng
> machinery, only slightly less directly than by exposing to messenger
> RNA.
>
>> The only reason they do that round about route is because it
>> predates the development of methods to insert the mRNA directly
>> into the cell, skipping the nucleus integration- which is a very
>> involved multi-phase process in itself. What kind of dinosaur would
>> do that these days? Maybe some nuts at Oxford who also spend their
>> free time reading Medieval romance.
>
> It produces a vaccine that is easier to distribute - the mRA vaccines
> have to be cooled dry ice until the y get very close to being jabbed
> into shoulders.

I thought the Moderna one was actually a normal cold chain <= -15C and
it was only Pfizer that had the severe dry ice requirement of <-44C.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/moderna/downloads/storage-summary.pdf

Using normal hospital freezers for storage at -18C is a huge advantage.

>>> One has to suspect that the difference in efficacy has more to do
>>> with the Covid-19 variatant around at the time and place they
>>> were tested than any difference in the way the vaccines persuades
>>> your cells to make the same protein.
>
>> LOL_ laughable conjecture- especially when both mRNA and Oxford
>> vaccines are administered simultaneously into the same population
>> groups with consistent results. The odds of that happening by
>> chance are as phenomenally small as your chance of regaining
>> coherence.
>
> They obviously weren't administered into the same population groups
> at the same time. That would have produced results that were
> impossible to decipher,
>
> They were administered to different groups of people in different
> places at much the same time. The Covid-19 variants circulating in
> these different areas at the time won't have been uniform. Most of
> the clinical trials were spread across several countries, adding even
> more variation.

I don't think that can explain the rather large differences in the
measured effectiveness of the original vaccines at preventing infection
by the various wild strains that were about at the time.

20x for Pfizer (and Moderna) vs 3-4x for AZ, J&J & Sputnik. Pfizer's
data was very clear whereas AZ data was pretty badly handled and opaque.

It has also come to light from the live challenge trials on young human
volunteers results that with a specific dose of Coronavirus inoculation
half of them did not catch Covid as a result (that was the dose that
they were trying to determine). It will have since become a lot lower.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01780-9

The curves of live virus shedding and PCR result in Fig 2 are also
interesting. No great surprises but it confirms that 4-5 day incubation
to maximum threat of transmission to others.

This BBC story and the links within are an interesting read - it looks
like having toddlers in the household might be a protection for some
against catching Covid (or maybe just genetic good luck).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63256505

Big problem with Omicron is that half the people who have it are
completely unaware that they *are* infected (up from 30% for wild form):

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795246

There is another really weird article out recently that I can't make
head nor tail of which claims that the asymmetry of left to right hand
finger ratios (a proxy for testosterone exposure in the womb) can
predict who will be most at risk of harm from Covid.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-08646-7

They might just be onto something but it is as opaque as hell and could
equally well be a small sample correlation that has no merit at all.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:30:19 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 2:33:16 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:41:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> > > > >
> > > > > The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counseling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.
> > > >
> > > > Life expectancy is a measure of the health of the population. Unless the place is a complete wreck, lots of people untreated, it has little to do with health care delivery. Can you find where it says otherwise here:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/health-conditions-disability-deaths/life-expectancy-deaths/overview
> > > Why would they bother? Australia isn't any kind of wealth care wreck.
> > > >
> > > > So unless you can show the U.S. is full of people with diagnosed but untreated illness, your evaluation of their health care system is baseless.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
> > >
> > > That was easy. How come you haven't noticed?
> > That has nothing to do with health care.
> > > > > If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't follow.
> > > Or you are unwilling to admit that it does.
> > > > > > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> > > >
> > > > > But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behavior, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.
> > > >
> > > > People in that age group aren't receptive to that kind of message. They think they're immortal.
> > > Not all of them by any means. Many fewer kids smoke now than they did when we were young.
> > That's because of a lot of other changes such as: price of cigarettes is high especially for juveniles, only people 21 years of age or older can legally buy cigarettes, smoking is now forbidden in a lot places where it was once allowed, social stigma, loss of employment opportunity- some employers won't consider smokers for employment, other have gone so far as terminating employees who fail to quit within a specified timeframe, there are a multitude of reasons making smoking a big hassle. None of them have to do with a health based conviction.
> > >
> > > > > The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see from the number Americans who are overweight.
> > > > That probably has more to do with the convenience, ready availability, and low cost of fattening diets, in addition to a 24/7 marketing blitz pushing that kind of food. It has nothing to do with health care delivery.
> > > The tobacco companies used to be able to get away with that kind of marketing. The health care system was able to exert enough influence to get them forced to cut back. The fast food industry ought to be equally vulnerable - except of course that it makes even more money, and in the US money talks particularly loudly.
> > None of that has to do with health care delivery.
> > > > > > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> > > > > https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
> > > > >
> > > > > puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do tell us the basis of your conclusion. At the moment it is a bald assertion of the kind that Gnaguy goes in for.
> > > > .>
> > > > > > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't getdenied care because you can't afford it.
> > > > >
> > > > > > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> > > > >
> > > > > Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.
> > > >
> > > > The law entitles everyone to emergency care.
> > >
> > > Emergency care is designed to stop you dying on the spot. It isn't designed to get people cured from the the disorder that brought them in.
> >
> > People are only very rarely "cured" of a disorder that got to the point of requiring emergency care.
> Don't be silly. I was talking to one of my medical friends last night,and he recalled performing an emergency tracheotomy (the only one he has ever done) on a kid in emergency. The kid had what Americans call "croup" and it was bad enough that they'd turned blue.

Croup is not a chronic disorder, it's a viral infection caused by parainfluenza virus, mostly in children. According to Mayo Clinic, in extremely rare cases a bacterial infection also develops in the upper airways resulting in obstruction. The parents were remiss waiting until the child became cyanotic before taking him/her in for medical intervention.

>
> Bypassing the swollen airways solved the short term problem and the kid made a complete recovery. Acute infections usually respond to massive doses of antibioticx fast enough that the patient makes a complete recovery.

Really? Good to know the popular misbeliefs on the topic...
> > > >The poor have Medicaid for standard care. Doctors tend to lose enthusiasm for treating patients who remain obviously non-compliant to their advice, or sell their prescription meds on the black market. Other than that there is no reason whatsoever the poor can't get the exact same treatment as the privately insured.
> > >
> > > So treating the poor is more difficult that treating the well off, and America doesn't bother. That 's exactly why drug-resistant tuberculosis got established in the US at about the same time as it started showing up in third world countries. This did emphasise that the health system has to deal with the health of the population as whole, as opposed to the health of the well-off who are easier and more profitable to treat.
> >
> > That is such a pathetically old and obvious observation that it's not worth comment. Drug resistant TB was brought into this country by immigrants, they're still bringing it with them, along with polio recently.
> The initial round of US drug resistant TB was entirely home grown. The US did clean up it's act at the time, so these days you are more likely to see it in immigrants and returning tourists. The people like you who don't like universal health care and label it as "socialised medicine" - as if that made it a bad thing - don't like the message, and get very rude when their noses are rubbed in it.

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 7:25:37 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:44:55 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:30:19 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 2:33:16 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:41:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill.....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Please educate us which party wants universal free healthcare and free education (loan forgiveness). We will have >$1T deficit as far as we can see.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't think there is anything like free health care in any developed country - here in Canada it is part of our taxes like other government services such as roads, police, education...you know, the essentials for a sane society.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Nothing is more expensive than something advertised as "free."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Doesn't apply to US health care which is roughly half again more expensive per head than that offered in other advanced industrial countries, while delivering a roughly five years poorer expectation of life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Care to explain what kind of miracle health care system is responsible for life expectancy?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The health care system is only responsible for making sick people live a little longer, and counseling people in how not to get sick by avoiding unhealthy life styles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Life expectancy is a measure of the health of the population. Unless the place is a complete wreck, lots of people untreated, it has little to do with health care delivery. Can you find where it says otherwise here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports-data/health-conditions-disability-deaths/life-expectancy-deaths/overview
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would they bother? Australia isn't any kind of wealth care wreck.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So unless you can show the U.S. is full of people with diagnosed but untreated illness, your evaluation of their health care system is baseless.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States
> > > > >
> > > > > That was easy. How come you haven't noticed?
> > > > >
> > > > That has nothing to do with health care.
> > > >
> > > > > > > If the people don't last too well, the health system isn't working as well as it should.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doesn't follow.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or you are unwilling to admit that it does.
> > > > > > > > All you're talking about, but too dumb to realize, is the inhabitants of these other places adhere to less unhealthy lifestyles. Medicine cannot reverse a lifetime of self-destructive unhealthy behavior.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > But they can discourage that self-destructive unhealthy behavior, ideally when the patients are young enough that they haven't got far into self-destruction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People in that age group aren't receptive to that kind of message. They think they're immortal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not all of them by any means. Many fewer kids smoke now than they did when we were young.
> > > >
> > > > That's because of a lot of other changes such as: price of cigarettes is high especially for juveniles, only people 21 years of age or older can legally buy cigarettes, smoking is now forbidden in a lot places where it was once allowed, social stigma, loss of employment opportunity- some employers won't consider smokers for employment, other have gone so far as terminating employees who fail to quit within a specified timeframe, there are a multitude of reasons making smoking a big hassle. None of them have to do with a health based conviction.
> You are joking? You've just listed legislative changes that were designed to improve the health of the country, based on advice from the health care system.

You're beyond simple. The government doesn't care about the health of the country, they do care about the cost to treat ill-health, and since most of the disease attributed to smoking occurs later in life- WHEN THESE PEOPLE ARE ON PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE- they really care. Cost was THE major if not the only consideration in the ultimate settlement with big tobacco. As usual, post analysis of how that money was actually used revealed less than 5% went to health care, with the rest used as a slush fund.

The health improvements, or more accurately ill-health avoidance, derived from living smoke free are a motivational strategy.

> > > > > > > The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see from the number Americans who are overweight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That probably has more to do with the convenience, ready availability, and low cost of fattening diets, in addition to a 24/7 marketing blitz pushing that kind of food. It has nothing to do with health care delivery.
> > > > >
> > > > > The tobacco companies used to be able to get away with that kind of marketing. The health care system was able to exert enough influence to get them forced to cut back. The fast food industry ought to be equally vulnerable - except of course that it makes even more money, and in the US money talks particularly loudly.
> > > >
> > > > None of that has to do with health care delivery.
> Not in way that you seem to be able to follow.
> > > > > > > > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do tell us the basis of your conclusion. At the moment it is a bald assertion of the kind that Gnaguy goes in for.
> > > > > > .>
> > > > > > > > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't get denied care because you can't afford it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The law entitles everyone to emergency care.
> > > > >
> > > > > Emergency care is designed to stop you dying on the spot. It isn't designed to get people cured from the the disorder that brought them in.
> > > >
> > > > People are only very rarely "cured" of a disorder that got to the point of requiring emergency care.
> > >
> > > Don't be silly. I was talking to one of my medical friends last night,and he recalled performing an emergency tracheotomy (the only one he has ever done) on a kid in emergency. The kid had what Americans call "croup" and it was bad enough that they'd turned blue.
> > >
> > Croup is not a chronic disorder, it's a viral infection caused by parainfluenza virus, mostly in children. According to Mayo Clinic, in extremely rare cases a bacterial infection also develops in the upper airways resulting in obstruction. The parents were remiss waiting until the child became cyanotic before taking him/her in for medical intervention.
> Where did the "chronic" come from?

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:21:48 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:22:35 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 7:25:37 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:44:55 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:30:19 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 2:33:16 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:41:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill.....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > > You are joking? You've just listed legislative changes that were designed to improve the health of the country, based on advice from the health care system.
> >
> > You're beyond simple. The government doesn't care about the health of the country, they do care about the cost to treat ill-health, and since most of the disease attributed to smoking occurs later in life- WHEN THESE PEOPLE ARE ON PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE- they really care. Cost was THE major if not the only consideration in the ultimate settlement with big tobacco. As usual, post analysis of how that money was actually used revealed less than 5% went to health care, with the rest used as a slush fund.
> Not the argument made back then. In the US there wasn't any public health insurance at time, so that wasn't an issue. In the UK, where it was, it was noted that there was not a lot the health system could do to help people who had wrecked their health by smoking. so all the cost the health system was relatively brief terminal care. The argument was made - slightly satirically - at the time, but the numbers that got plugged into the argument were real enough.
>
> In reality the driver was the real indignation about tobacco companies making money out getting people addicted to a dangerous drug, and attention politicians could get out being indignant about it. You aren't being sophisticated - you are just trying to look as if you are
> > The health improvements, or more accurately ill-health avoidance, derived from living smoke free are a motivational strategy.
> So why can't the US government motivate people to eat less and and better?
> > > > > > > > > The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see from the number Americans who are overweight.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That probably has more to do with the convenience, ready availability, and low cost of fattening diets, in addition to a 24/7 marketing blitz pushing that kind of food. It has nothing to do with health care delivery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The tobacco companies used to be able to get away with that kind of marketing. The health care system was able to exert enough influence to get them forced to cut back. The fast food industry ought to be equally vulnerable - except of course that it makes even more money, and in the US money talks particularly loudly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > None of that has to do with health care delivery.
> > >
> > > Not in way that you seem to be able to follow.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > With the exception of possibly Germany, U.S. has the best health care system in the world.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > puts Germany at 27th, and the US at 46th. Australia is at number eight. Do tell us the basis of your conclusion. At the moment it is a bald assertion of the kind that Gnaguy goes in for.
> > > > > > > > .>
> > > > > > > > > > > As John Robertson says, nobody advertises universal health care as free. It's paid for with a tax - in my case a 2% levy on my income - but you don't get denied care because you can't afford it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No one is denied health care in U.S.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Very few places will treat you if you haven't health insurance. and the quality of the care you get can be dubious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The law entitles everyone to emergency care.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Emergency care is designed to stop you dying on the spot. It isn't designed to get people cured from the the disorder that brought them in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People are only very rarely "cured" of a disorder that got to the point of requiring emergency care.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't be silly. I was talking to one of my medical friends last night,and he recalled performing an emergency tracheotomy (the only one he has ever done) on a kid in emergency. The kid had what Americans call "croup" and it was bad enough that they'd turned blue.
> > > > >
> > > > Croup is not a chronic disorder, it's a viral infection caused by parainfluenza virus, mostly in children. According to Mayo Clinic, in extremely rare cases a bacterial infection also develops in the upper airways resulting in obstruction. The parents were remiss waiting until the child became cyanotic before taking him/her in for medical intervention.
> > >
> > > Where did the "chronic" come from?
> >
> > You're the fool using the word, disorder. I wouldn't call a broken bone a disorder, nor would I call an emergency treatment of airway obstruction a disorder. Those are events. Disorder means systemic dysfunction for one reason or another. Those things are not cured.
> Disorder just means not working right - which does include "an illness of the mind or body: "
>
> Broken bones definitely disorder the body, and so do blocked airways.
> > >
> > > > > Bypassing the swollen airways solved the short term problem and the kid made a complete recovery. Acute infections usually respond to massive doses of antibiotics fast enough that the patient makes a complete recovery.
> > > >
> > > > Really? Good to know the popular misbeliefs on the topic...
> > >
> > > Where's the misbelief? There are certainly situations where they don't, but "usually" covers that.
> > >
> > > > > > > >The poor have Medicaid for standard care. Doctors tend to lose enthusiasm for treating patients who remain obviously non-compliant to their advice, or sell their prescription meds on the black market. Other than that there is no reason whatsoever the poor can't get the exact same treatment as the privately insured.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So treating the poor is more difficult that treating the well off, and America doesn't bother. That 's exactly why drug-resistant tuberculosis got established in the US at about the same time as it started showing up in third world countries. This did emphasise that the health system has to deal with the health of the population as whole, as opposed to the health of the well-off who are easier and more profitable to treat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is such a pathetically old and obvious observation that it's not worth comment. Drug resistant TB was brought into this country by immigrants, they're still bringing it with them, along with polio recently.
> > > > >
> > > > > The initial round of US drug resistant TB was entirely home grown.. The US did clean up it's act at the time, so these days you are more likely to see it in immigrants and returning tourists. The people like you who don't like universal health care and label it as "socialised medicine" - as if that made it a bad thing - don't like the message, and get very rude when their noses are rubbed in it.
> > > >
> > > > You don't know what you're talking about. For anyone testing positive in the TB reaction test, the government public health people are on them in a flash. They do an extensive investigation into all the possible contacts as well provide rapid treatment and follow-up. That sounds pretty socialized to me.
> > >
> > > That may be what happens now.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > Naomi Klein has talked about having had a car accident in New Orleans when covering Hurricane Katrina and having got brilliant treatment in an empty private hospital,when the less well-off locals were getting inadequate health care in emergency accommodation.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/50896/411348-Hospitals-in-Hurricane-Katrina.PDF
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That airhead doesn't know what she's talking about- she's totally oblivious to reality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Only a rightwing airhead would be silly enough to claim that Naomi Klein was "oblivious to reality".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She's completely out of touch with reality. Her bio even admits she was raised in a pro-Stalinist communistic family, and it influenced her greatly. This isn't the 1960s anymore when people though communism was so cool. Klein is washed up.
> > > > >
> > > > > She was actually raised in an anarcho-sydicalist family, much like Naom Chomsky's. They disliked Stalin quite a much as you do, and with better reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/801264-if-you-took-the-most-ardent-revolutionary-vested-him-in
> > > > >
> > > > > Mikhail Bakunin is a significant figure in anarcho-syndicalist history, and the quote dates from the time that the international socialist movement kicked out Karl Marx for being anti-democratic, expecting - correctly - that his daft ideas about "the leading role of the party" would lead to communist tyrants like Stalin.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are exactly the kind of right-wing clown that John Kenneth Gailbraith satirised in
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/949155.The_Triumph
> > > >
> > > > All of these odd political theories are little more than scams invented by a bunch of unemployables exploring strategies to dupe people into overthrowing the establishment- and the anarcho part means violence. Anything else they have to say about themselves is a complete fraud. It most certainly is not a philosophy, it's an exploitation.
> > >
> > > The anarcho-syndicalist movement is the basis of the cooperative enterprise movement. There's no left-wing (or right-wing) political movement that hasn't been infiltrated by psychopaths who want to exploit them for their own ends - Donald Trump would be the most recent example - but there are lot more respectable anarcho-syndicalists around than there are dupes of power-hungry psychopaths.
> >
> > The whole bunch are worthless psychopaths- makes no difference whether it's left or right.
> What a splendidly cynical observation. It is also totally nonsensical, and a contentless evasion.
> > > > > > > She thinks that people like you ignore realities that they don't like, which you resent, but she's right.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > New Orleans was a disaster area so of course you can expect the medical facilities to be improvised. How would she know if anyone's care was inadequate. In that particular situation housing patients in field tents with collapsible cots for beds is plenty adequate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She was pointing out that she got to exploit super-adequate medical facilities that weren't being exploited to help out people who desperately needed them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > If they opened the facilities for everyone they would soon get to the point of not being able to help anyone. The woman is an idiot not worth listening to.
> > > > >
> > > > > They didn't have to open the facility to everybody. It would have been nice if they opened it up enough to help some of the people who had needed help - as opposed to absolutely none of them.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > And what other than a trauma injury put people in the hospital after the hurricane? Maybe they cut their knee on the glass they broke during a looting or something.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Quite a few of them were in hospital before the hurricane, and needed help when their hospitals got flooded or lost power or ran out of supplies. as is pointed out in the link I posted and you've ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah- that Urban Institute paper is defective in so many ways. It reads like it was written by a demented child.
> > > > >
> > > > > Worst of all, it doesn't share your particular sort of demented childishness.
> > > >
> > > > It was obviously written by an intern. It was all horror here and horror there, sprinkled with unsubstantiated anecdotes of little relevance in that paper. Zero impact.
> > >
> > > For the American market the "intern" should have found examples of rich people being left in discomfort.
> > >
> > > > > > Most American cities are full of corruption and mismanagement, New Orleans is especially bad- so what's new?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The mega hospitals need to move all their emergency power generation to the roof- and make storage space for some of these collapsible gizmoids to move patients and replenish supplies- now there's a small industry of disaster relief drones for the same ends.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.zodiac-nautic.com/us/
> > > > >
> > > > > It takes an actual disaster to let capitalists realise that there's a market there to exploit. After SARS Obama set up a unit to monitor US public health for similar epidemics.
> > > >
> > > > He didn't set up anything. There was already adequate emergency response infrastructure put in place during the Bush administration. The first SARS outbreak was 2005, predates Obama. The Obama administration set up some kind of planning group within the National Security Council- it was a boondoggle, didn't do much, rumored to have produced this big master response plan, just a bunch of paper no one was interested in reading- a bunch of useless high level crap. That's why Trump de-funded them.
> > >
> > > Pull the other leg.
> > >
> > > > > As soon as Trump came to power, he saved money by shutting it down - one of the many ways he made the US Covid-19 epidemic worse than it should have been.
> > > >
> > > > Nonsense- you have no idea what you're talking about.
> >
> > > You do like to think so. Gnatguy makes the same claim from time to time - it's an easy claim to make if you don't bother justifying it.
> >
> > Unlike Gnatguy, I *know* what I'm talking about.
> >
> > https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team/partly-false-claim-trump-fired-entire-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
> About as well as Gnatguy, who "evidence" also doesn't mean what he claims that it means. You are parroting John Boltons' claims that show up in the fact check article - which is to say the Trump team's excuse for their idiocy.
> >
> > Oooooh- look here!- they composed a memorandum...
> <snipped>
>
> More Gnatguy stuff.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 11/13/2022 5:43 PM, three_jeeps wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:27:53 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/12/2022 10:41 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> Except emergency rooms. I overheard couple of homeless saying. Let's pretend to be sick and go to the emergency room. Nice free room and board for couple of days. Very expensive homeless shelter.
>>>
>>> They must not have been in an emergency department, lately, if they
>>> think they'll get anything like a hotel experience. Maybe you haven't
>>> seen the inside of one lately, either..
>>>
>>> Parked on a gurney in a hallway for two or three days is what you can
>>> expect if you're sick enough to be admitted but not critically ill, much
>>> less a "room", even at many suburban hospitals these days.
>>>
>>> You'd likely get better sleep on a quiet park bench.
>>>
>> I had a very nice visit to the ER at SF General, where the people were
>> great. I got three CT scans until they were happy with the images. I
>> have them around here somewhere. I traveled a lot back and forth for
>> the imaging and didn't see any gurneys parked in hallways.
>>
>> Then I got a beautiful private room with a view for two days. Not bad
>> for a medicaire patient in a public hospital.
>>
>> Zuckerberg's wife is an MD at SF General, so he bought the hospital
>> for her. It's the only major-trauma center in town.
>
> Experiences differ depending on where you are. I recently accompanied my brother to the ER at the insistence of his PCP. Arrived around noon after we left the PCP's office. We had to wait in the 'over flow' room. Four hrs after arrival they took my brother for blood sample urine sample, and vitals. Six hours after that, he was seen by an ER doc and then told to wait in the waiting room till they determined if they had a bed for him. Three hours after that (we are up to 13 hrs) they 'found' a bed for him in the hallway of the ER area. So as I leave through the ER at approximately 2AM, the waiting room looked like a homeless shelter. I asked the nurse what gives and she wryly said it is the poors' health care system.....And this was in a hospital in the more 'upscale' area of the city, which is close to the more undesirable parts of the city.
> A day later they found a semiprivate room for him where he stayed for 2 days...and then at the insistence of one of the attendies and his PCP, he was moved to 'a better floor' and a private room...

Like a lot of industries, healthcare in the US will be using Covid as an
excuse for the next 20 years as to why they can't provide basic
first-world levels of service.

Meanwhile management salaries will continue to only go up

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 8:45:45 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 4:10:42 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 9:21:48 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:22:35 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 7:25:37 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:44:55 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 8:30:19 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee..org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 2:33:16 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, bill.....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 5:41:50 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 8:54:54 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 11:48:08 PM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 2:40:35 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:05:57 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-8, John Robertson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2022/11/11 5:43 p.m., Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 1:40:20 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 11/11/2022 1:18 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:46:07 -0500, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 11/10/2022 11:46 PM, Ricky wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > > > > > > As soon as Trump came to power, he saved money by shutting it down - one of the many ways he made the US Covid-19 epidemic worse than it should have been.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nonsense- you have no idea what you're talking about.
> > > >
> > > > > You do like to think so. Gnatguy makes the same claim from time to time - it's an easy claim to make if you don't bother justifying it.
> > > >
> > > > Unlike Gnatguy, I *know* what I'm talking about.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team/partly-false-claim-trump-fired-entire-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
> > >
> > > About as well as Gnatguy, who "evidence" also doesn't mean what he claims that it means. You are parroting John Boltons' claims that show up in the fact check article - which is to say the Trump team's excuse for their idiocy.
> > > >
> > > > Oooooh- look here!- they composed a memorandum...
> > >
> > > <snipped>
> > >
> > > More Gnatguy stuff.
> >
> > Barda has been in place since 2006:
> >
> > https://aspr.hhs.gov/AboutASPR/ProgramOffices/BARDA/Pages/default.aspx
> >
> > Look at their pandemic portfolio (one of several):
> > https://www.medicalcountermeasures.gov/app/barda/coronavirus/COVID19.aspx
> So it didn't have anything to do with Trump.

It was created by an act of Congress signed into law by Dubya, a full 10 years before the Times Square fried chicken salesman came along.

> > There was no missing "master plan" childish idiocy. In fact, any planning the NSC directorate was doing was heavily derived from input from BARDA.
> So what. The problem wasn't actually in the planning - the problem was that Trump wasn't all that interested in dealing with the pandemic, beyond setting up photo-opportunities where he could present himself as doing something about it. As a politician he was great at impressing people, but useless at getting things done.

He's a narcissistic sociopath and all he could see in it was another opportunity for public relations self-promotion. Where Trump threw a wrench into the works of government orchestrated pandemic control was 1) playing down the severity of the virus, 2) promoting several quack cures ( one of which he got from that equally low IQ idiot, Musk), 3) ridiculing common sense protective measures like avoiding large gatherings, masking, and testing, 4) appointing mentally imbalanced wackadoodles to influential positions within the government, etc. He couldn't get anything done because he was too busy making things come undone.

> > You don't know the first thing about any of this, you're delusional if you think you do.
> Fred Bloggs is great at seeing non-existing delusional states in other people, and blind to his own problem.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman , Sydney

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 6:28:55 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 02:48, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:24:52 AM UTC+11, Fred Bloggs
> > wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:45:42 PM UTC-5,
> >> bill....@ieee.org wrote:
>
> >>> Both technologies tell your cells to synthesise a version of the
> >>> spike protein. Both the mRNA sequences and the viral vector can
> >>> be constructed to direct the synthesis of any more or less
> >>> arbitrary protein.
> >>
> >> The viral vector is integrated into the host cell nucleus and from
> >> there expresses the mRNA to direct the mitochondria in expression
> >> of the spike protein.
> >
> > The virus vector isn't "integrated" into the cell nucleus - it just
> > gets there and hijacks part of the cell protein synthesisng
> > machinery, only slightly less directly than by exposing to messenger
> > RNA.
> >
> >> The only reason they do that round about route is because it
> >> predates the development of methods to insert the mRNA directly
> >> into the cell, skipping the nucleus integration- which is a very
> >> involved multi-phase process in itself. What kind of dinosaur would
> >> do that these days? Maybe some nuts at Oxford who also spend their
> >> free time reading Medieval romance.
> >
> > It produces a vaccine that is easier to distribute - the mRA vaccines
> > have to be cooled dry ice until the y get very close to being jabbed
> > into shoulders.
>
> I thought the Moderna one was actually a normal cold chain <= -15C and
> it was only Pfizer that had the severe dry ice requirement of <-44C.
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/moderna/downloads/storage-summary.pdf
>
> Using normal hospital freezers for storage at -18C is a huge advantage.
>
> >>> One has to suspect that the difference in efficacy has more to do
> >>> with the Covid-19 variatant around at the time and place they
> >>> were tested than any difference in the way the vaccines persuades
> >>> your cells to make the same protein.
> >
> >> LOL_ laughable conjecture- especially when both mRNA and Oxford
> >> vaccines are administered simultaneously into the same population
> >> groups with consistent results. The odds of that happening by
> >> chance are as phenomenally small as your chance of regaining
> >> coherence.
> >
> > They obviously weren't administered into the same population groups
> > at the same time. That would have produced results that were
> > impossible to decipher,
> >
> > They were administered to different groups of people in different
> > places at much the same time. The Covid-19 variants circulating in
> > these different areas at the time won't have been uniform. Most of
> > the clinical trials were spread across several countries, adding even
> > more variation.
>
> I don't think that can explain the rather large differences in the
> measured effectiveness of the original vaccines at preventing infection
> by the various wild strains that were about at the time.
>
> 20x for Pfizer (and Moderna) vs 3-4x for AZ, J&J & Sputnik. Pfizer's
> data was very clear whereas AZ data was pretty badly handled and opaque.
>
> It has also come to light from the live challenge trials on young human
> volunteers results that with a specific dose of Coronavirus inoculation
> half of them did not catch Covid as a result (that was the dose that
> they were trying to determine). It will have since become a lot lower.
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01780-9
>
> The curves of live virus shedding and PCR result in Fig 2 are also
> interesting. No great surprises but it confirms that 4-5 day incubation
> to maximum threat of transmission to others.
>
> This BBC story and the links within are an interesting read - it looks
> like having toddlers in the household might be a protection for some
> against catching Covid (or maybe just genetic good luck).
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63256505
>
> Big problem with Omicron is that half the people who have it are
> completely unaware that they *are* infected (up from 30% for wild form):
>
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795246
>
> There is another really weird article out recently that I can't make
> head nor tail of which claims that the asymmetry of left to right hand
> finger ratios (a proxy for testosterone exposure in the womb) can
> predict who will be most at risk of harm from Covid.
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-08646-7
>
> They might just be onto something but it is as opaque as hell and could
> equally well be a small sample correlation that has no merit at all.

Their results were that the finger ratio statistics and asymmetries all have low to medium effect on predicting hospitalization. The test for effect size they used is the standard Cohen's d-test, which is a simple difference in group means normalized to total population std ( no- not sexually transmitted disease). It is more or less a quantification of statistical significance testing. Effects computed to be low to medium are considered to have no practical value.
In the intro they discussed the two competing theories for serious Covid disease in men: hypogonadism and hypergonadism. There is good evidence supporting both of these these contradicting findings. That's where the fingers come into the picture. Men with normal to above testosterone levels consistently have low 2D:4D ratios on their left hand. Their endowment and the resulting finger ratio are a direct result of testosterone exposure in the womb, and amazingly remains constant throughout their life despite other environmental influences. The asymmetry of the 2D:4D ratio between the right and left hand is another story, and that's where the developmental instability comes into the picture, especially as regards their assumptions of what 2D:4D tells them.
Too make a long story short, they really went overboard with all these finger measurements, but to their credit, they did find their technique is more or less a dead end.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 12:37:16 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:18:12 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:39:41 AM UTC-8, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:27:22 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:35:33 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:12:01 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
> <snip>
> > > Nobody would be silly enough to try to tell you anything that suggested that Joe Biden was doing a decent job. He's a Democrat.
> >
> > Hey, all we have to do is look at the numbers: Joe' Biden is responsible for:
> > 1. The highest rate of inflation in decades
> Actually that's Putin's fault, not Biden's.

You are BLOWING SMOKE, Bozo - Lyin' Biden and the Dims spent THIRTEEN TRILLION DOLLARS that they didn't have; the ONLY outcome is SKY HIGH INFLATION.
> > 2. Putin's invasion of Ukraine
> Only Gnatguy could be silly enough to believe that.

Hardly, idiot. Lyin' Biden demonstrated his INEPTITUDE in Afghanistan - Putin took note and knew that Lyin' Biden was TOO SCARED to counter his invasion of Ukraine. Of course, Lyin' Biden sat on his hands, not sure what to do..

> > 3. An historic decline in American's net worth
> More likely attributable to the damage Donald Trump did to American credibility.

You FUCKING IDIOT - this occurred under Lyin' Biden's watch, NOT TRUMP'S!

>
> > 4. A recession
>
> Putin's invasion of Russia, and Donald Trump's slap-dash handling of the Covids-19 epidemic seem to be more immediate causes.

You know NOTHING about economics - the Ukrainian war has ZIP to do with our economy; the Fed has been jacking up interest rates to SLOW our economy, which is a recession be definition.

>
> > 5. Rampant crime wave
>
> There isn't one. Historically speaking, crime in the US is at a very low level - up a bit from the midst of the Covid-19 epidemic, but still unusually low.

BULLSHIT!!!!! This coming from the SAME IDIOT who talks about rampant gun violence in the US!!!!!! What the fuck is it: do we have gun violence OR NOT?????

> > 6. An unprecedented invasion of illegals from the south border
> Really?

Hey Bozo, are you REALLY that stupid? We have had a MASSIVE invasion over the southern border, just look at the STATISTICS (you DO claim to know statistics, don't you?).

> > 7. Not holding China responsible for COVID coming from the Wuhan lab
> That makes Biden sane, unlike the lunatic conspiracy theory nut-cases who want to think otherwise.

No, that makes Lyin' Biden look like he is under the thumb of the CHICOMs, which he is thankful to the BRIBES he has taken from them.

> > 8. Massive decline in primary education levels
> Down to the level that Gnatguy represents? The US has 16,800 school districts and Joe Biden doesn't tell any of them what to do.

You are SO IGNORANT, fool! The Dims SHUT DOWN all of our schools for TWO YEARS - what do you think the result would be????

> > 9. American's malaise over their future
> Rupert Murdoch and Donald Trump have being lying nonstop to the American people for quite a while now. Joe Biden isn't responsible for that either.

Hey Bozo, you are just trying to shift the blame - sorry, but Lyin' Biden and the Dims have had complete control for TWO YEARS!!!!!!!

> > 10. Unprecedented corruption at the highest levels
> Some of Trump's picks were pretty corrupt - to the point that a Republican congress got rid of some of them. Biden's picks haven't been slung out yet, and haven't yet needed to be pardoned by Biden. Gnatguy's use of the word "unpredcedented" has a lot to do with the fact that he doesn't think that Republicans are ever corrupt,

HA HA HA HA! Who the fuck was in CONTROL for the last TWO YEARS? It sure as hell WASN'T TRUMP!

>
> > Fortunately, help is on the way with Republicans regaining control.
>
> The Keystone cops? Expecting Republicans to restrain corruption is a trifle unrealistic, but that's our Gnatguy.

In your WET DREAMS (if you are still having them) Bozo! The corruption runs thru this ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION, so eradicating it IS a big task, but the Republicans WILL take it on with the CONTROL of the House!!!!!!!!!

>
> --
> Bozo Bill Sloman, Sydney

> The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can see fro the number Americans who are oveweight.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

This demonstrates the SHEAR IGNORANCE of Bozo better than ANYTHING ELSE!! The healthcare system in the US doesn't make people drink gallons of sugar water or eat barrels of ice cream or swallow tons of greasy Big Macs - people do it gleefully ALL ON THEIR OWN! It is no wonder why the MOST freezers in the grocery stores are devoted exclusively to ICE CREAM!!!!

BTW Bozo, your spelling SUCKS!

On 11/14/22 22:56, Flyguy wrote:
>
>> The US health system s remarkably ineffective at that, as you can
>> see fro the number Americans who are oveweight.
>
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
>
> This demonstrates the SHEAR IGNORANCE of Bozo better than ANYTHING
> ELSE!! The healthcare system in the US doesn't make people drink
> gallons of sugar water or eat barrels of ice cream or swallow tons of
> greasy Big Macs - people do it gleefully ALL ON THEIR OWN! It is no
> wonder why the MOST freezers in the grocery stores are devoted
> exclusively to ICE CREAM!!!!
>
> BTW Bozo, your spelling SUCKS!

SHEAR wasn't the right word. You either don't know how it's spelled, or
chose the wrong word, or don't realize there are two.
Whichever, it's far worse than Sloman's typos.