Tue, 1 Jun 2021 06:47:38 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
>
>I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>'onion'.

Could be and then Guido's right.

>> Because the English version of
>> Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
>> includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
>> always consult that one first.
>>
>> My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
>> too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
>> French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
>> "From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
>> union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
>> So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
>>
>
>

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:06:18 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:

>Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>> languages, in this case French.
>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>> 'onion'.
>
>
>You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>
>I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
>the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.

True. I did, but tried to hide it. Le Portugais comprehendera.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:

>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>pierre.

The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
has recently been renovated as a town park, which indications of where
the old walls were, and there is a statue of a coragious, but
physically small woman:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_van_Heukelom
under whose supervision the castle and city were defended against the
ever evil bisschop of Utrecht, a mere 15 km along. Wars were local
then, and safety a luxury. Count your blessings. We can now go there
by bicycle and noone does us any harm.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
>
>(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -

Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.

>according to our
>phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>portuguese, as befits their own phonology.

Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:09:12 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <brol@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>>pierre.
>
>The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
>home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
>building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
>castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
>has recently been renovated as a town park, which

with

>indications of where
>the old walls were, and there is a statue of a coragious, but
>physically small woman:
>https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_van_Heukelom
>under whose supervision the castle and city were defended against the
>ever evil bisschop of Utrecht, a mere 15 km along. Wars were local
>then, and safety a luxury. Count your blessings. We can now go there
>by bicycle and noone does us any harm.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:

> I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
Didn't know it was a shortened oignon. Neither about the supposed -ign-
graphy.

--
guido wugi

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 1:02:21 PM UTC-7, wugi wrote:
> Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> > I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> > it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
> So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
> Didn't know it was a shortened oignon. Neither about the supposed -ign-
> graphy.
>
English has not only a Latin derived word onion but also a word ramps from OE hramsa cognate with Greek kromion.
https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/on-the-etymology-of-the-word-ramps

English chive and French cive come from the same source
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chive#English

Le mardi 1 juin 2021 à 22:02:21 UTC+2, wugi a écrit :
> Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> > I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> > it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
> So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!

yes, quite funny, with Southern spelling nh = ign
LOL

On 2021-06-01 19:55:18 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>> In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>> was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>> those were converted into 'da raíña'*.

You've sent me off on a tangent with this comment. There is a prominent
Chilean family called Larraín, and an up-market comuna of Santiago
called La Reina (where the late unlamented Erich Honecker spent his
declining years). I had sometimes wondered if the slight similarity of
names had any significance, but apparently not: La Reina means what it
looks as if it means, and Larraín is of Basque rather than Galician
origin.
>>
>> (*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>> -nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
>
> Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.
>
>> according to our
>> phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>> in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>> _faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>> simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>> portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
>
> Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > --
> > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >
> > timbre
> > entente
> > lignes
> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>
> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.

Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> > > timbre
> > > entente
> > > lignes
> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >
> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

Both. As expected in that environment.

Wed, 2 Jun 2021 03:01:16 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>> > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> > > --
>> > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> >
>> > timbre
>> > entente
>> > lignes
>> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>>
>> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
>Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

But that's American English, not French.

Some Americans nasalise ALL vowels, regardless. She probably does not.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Wed, 2 Jun 2021 05:35:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> > > timbre
>> > > entente
>> > > lignes
>> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>> >
>> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>>
>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
>
>Both. As expected in that environment.

Also in British English, also in French? I don't think so.

List to "aim" in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxTwHYg1WE . Fully
nasalised all over. Then compare https://nl.forvo.com/word/aim/ .
Clear difference.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > > --
> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> > >
> > > timbre
> > > entente
> > > lignes
> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >
> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

PTD:
Both. As expected in that environment.

My only question in my 1st posting was:
In which contexts is this expected?
Why is it expected for only one of these words?

timbre
entente
lignes
macedoine

And is it expected only from some speakers?

Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >
>> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> > > > --
>> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> > >
>> > > timbre
>> > > entente
>> > > lignes
>> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>> >
>> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>>
>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
>
>PTD:
>Both. As expected in that environment.
>
>My only question in my 1st posting was:
>In which contexts is this expected?
>Why is it expected for only one of these words?

Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
are.

>timbre
>entente
>lignes
>macedoine

Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?

>And is it expected only from some speakers?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> >> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> >> > > > --
> >> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >> > >
> >> > > timbre
> >> > > entente
> >> > > lignes
> >> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >> >
> >> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> >> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
> >>
> >> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> >> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
> >> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> >> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
> >
> >PTD:
> >Both. As expected in that environment.
> >
> >My only question in my 1st posting was:
> >In which contexts is this expected?
> >Why is it expected for only one of these words?
> Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
> are.
>
> >timbre
> >entente
> >lignes
> >macedoine
>
> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?

French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?

> >And is it expected only from some speakers?
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>>>>>>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal
>>>>>> and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> timbre
>>>>>> entente
>>>>>> lignes
>>>>> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>>>>> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>>>>
>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
>>>
>>> PTD:
>>> Both. As expected in that environment.
>>>
>>> My only question in my 1st posting was:
>>> In which contexts is this expected?
>>> Why is it expected for only one of these words?
>> Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
>> are.
>>
>>> timbre
>>> entente
>>> lignes
>>> macedoine
>>
>> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a
> nasal stop in a French accent?

The recently mentioned immanquable, along with thousands of others?

In breton you have a number of minimal pairs between Vn and (nasal V).

>
>>> And is it expected only from some speakers?
>> --
>> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
>

Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 12:56:27 UTC+2, Dingbat a écrit :
> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> > >On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > >> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > >> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > >> > > > --
> > >> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > timbre
> > >> > > entente
> > >> > > lignes
> > >> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> > >> >
> > >> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > >> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
> > >>
> > >> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> > >> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
> > >> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> > >> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
> > >
> > >PTD:
> > >Both. As expected in that environment.
> > >
> > >My only question in my 1st posting was:
> > >In which contexts is this expected?
> > >Why is it expected for only one of these words?
> > Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
> > are.
> >
> > >timbre
> > >entente
> > >lignes
> > >macedoine
> >
> > Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
> French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?

ennui for example
enamouré is another instance, not reflected by spelling.

Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >timbre
>> >entente
>> >lignes
>> >macedoine
>>
>> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?

>French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?

What is a nasal stop??

Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 19:21:09 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >timbre
> >> >entente
> >> >lignes
> >> >macedoine
> >>
> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> What is a nasal stop??

/n/ /m/ for example.

Op 3/06/2021 om 18:45 schreef Arnaud Fournet:
> Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 12:56:27 UTC+2, Dingbat a écrit :
>> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>>>>>>>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> timbre
>>>>>>> entente
>>>>>>> lignes
>>>>>> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>>>>>> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
>>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
>>>>
>>>> PTD:
>>>> Both. As expected in that environment.
>>>>
>>>> My only question in my 1st posting was:
>>>> In which contexts is this expected?
>>>> Why is it expected for only one of these words?
>>> Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
>>> are.
>>>
>>>> timbre
>>>> entente
>>>> lignes
>>>> macedoine
>>>
>>> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>> French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
>
> ennui for example
> enamouré is another instance, not reflected by spelling.
>

Nous vînmes?

--
guido wugi

Op 3/06/2021 om 22:49 schreef wugi:
> Op 3/06/2021 om 18:45 schreef Arnaud Fournet:
>> Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 12:56:27 UTC+2, Dingbat a écrit :
>>> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>>>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:01:18 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>>>>>>>>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or
>>>>>>>> non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> timbre
>>>>>>>> entente
>>>>>>>> lignes
>>>>>>> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
>>>>>>> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
>>>>>> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
>>>>>> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
>>>>>
>>>>> PTD:
>>>>> Both. As expected in that environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> My only question in my 1st posting was:
>>>>> In which contexts is this expected?
>>>>> Why is it expected for only one of these words?
>>>> Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>>> timbre
>>>>> entente
>>>>> lignes
>>>>> macedoine
>>>>
>>>> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>>> French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by
>>> a nasal stop in a French accent?
>>
>> ennui for example
>> enamouré is another instance, not reflected by spelling.
>>

Immanquable et al. which I mentioned elsewhere; unpredictable whether
im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).

But those are not with "ending stops", compare:
>
> Nous vînmes?
>

--
guido wugi

On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:21:09 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >timbre
> >> >entente
> >> >lignes
> >> >macedoine
> >>
> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> What is a nasal stop??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_consonant

Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet.arnaud@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:

>Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 19:21:09 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
>> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >timbre
>> >> >entente
>> >> >lignes
>> >> >macedoine
>> >>
>> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>>
>> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
>> What is a nasal stop??
>
>/n/ /m/ for example.

I only knew 'stop' as a synonym for plosive, like t, d, p, k etc.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Thu, 3 Jun 2021 23:46:21 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:21:09 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >timbre
>> >> >entente
>> >> >lignes
>> >> >macedoine
>> >>
>> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>>
>> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
>> What is a nasal stop??
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_consonant

So it is a term. I didn't know it, but now do. It is quite logical
too: the oral airflow is stopped.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com