On 7/06/2021 6:53 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:27:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
> OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
>
>>> It would be simpler to just not drop the r's/
>>
>> Many Americans drop them too. Many more, who ARE rhotic, have very
>> light final r's, not too different from mine, in Dutch.
>
> But non-rhotic Americans (Deep South, New York, Boston) do not pretend
> that the vowels in the syllables that have lost their r are different from the
> vowels that didn't have an r in the first place.

Where would they do such pretending?

And could you perhaps cite an example of this pretense among the hated
Brits? (You've mentioned ita and Shavian -- is that all you mean by "they"?)

On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> >I find this word enigmatic:
> >encastré
> >https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
> >
> >It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>
I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
pronunciation of oonchali.
>
> >The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
> languages dictate.
>
.... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>
> >The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>
I hear [tSE]. Interesting that you hear [ka].
What is [ä]? I hear German <ä> as [E].
>
> >The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
> > (the ending vowel of ancestry)
> Not surprising. The phonetic difference between [e] and [I] is largely
> undefined.
>
FWIW, Joe Cocker misheard VINCE, the name of Elvis P's character in Jailhouse Rock, and
gave himself a stage name VANCE Arnold*! I'm amazed that it's possible to hear [I] as [&].
* ... if you believe the story here of why Joe assumed that pseudonym:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cocker
>
> I clearly hear a cardinal [e], however, as expected.
>
Perhaps one needs a phone reading machine rather than a human to tell what a vowel is,
since humans (like Cocker above) influenced by their phonemes can hear one phone as another.
I have a terminal [I] in COUNTRY but I hear some Brits end it with [e] or [eI]. Listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Jbmz389M
What vowel do they think they use and what would a machine say their vowel is?

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> > >I find this word enigmatic:
> > >encastré
> > >https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
> > >
> > >It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
> > I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
> >
> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
> pronunciation of oonchali.

Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
> > >The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
> > Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
> > languages dictate.
> >
> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.

I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/

> > >The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
> > No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
> >
> I hear [tSE]. Interesting that you hear [ka].
> What is [ä]? I hear German <ä> as [E].

[ä] is a central low vowel. Often cited simply as [a]. But in some contexts, [a] is considered front and [A] back, hence the confusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Vowels
=Notes

⟨a⟩ officially represents a front vowel, but there is little distinction between front and central open vowels, and ⟨a⟩ is frequently used for an open central vowel.[42] If disambiguation is required, the retraction diacritic or the centralized diacritic may be added to indicate an open central vowel, as in ⟨a̠⟩ or ⟨ä⟩.
= > >
> > >The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
> > > (the ending vowel of ancestry)
> > Not surprising. The phonetic difference between [e] and [I] is largely
> > undefined.
> >
> FWIW, Joe Cocker misheard VINCE, the name of Elvis P's character in Jailhouse Rock, and
> gave himself a stage name VANCE Arnold*! I'm amazed that it's possible to hear [I] as [&].
> * ... if you believe the story here of why Joe assumed that pseudonym:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cocker
> >
> > I clearly hear a cardinal [e], however, as expected.
> >
> Perhaps one needs a phone reading machine rather than a human to tell what a vowel is,
> since humans (like Cocker above) influenced by their phonemes can hear one phone as another.

The Praat software is supposed to be able to do that, but when I tried it, it was incomprehensible to me. Perhaps somebody else wants to try. ('Praat' means 'speak, talk' in Dutch. The makers are Dutch.)

https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/
(Wow, it also works on Linux!)

> I have a terminal [I] in COUNTRY but I hear some Brits end it with [e] or [eI]. Listen:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Jbmz389M
> What vowel do they think they use and what would a machine say their vowel is?

[i], [e], [I], could be anything. Very similar to a final <ie> in Dutch, which is [i].

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> > > >I find this word enigmatic:
> > > >encastré
> > > >https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
> > > >
> > > >It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
> > > I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
> > >
> > I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
> > pronunciation of oonchali.
> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.

Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
But that's the 1st vowel.

> > > >The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
> > > Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
> > > languages dictate.
> > >
> > ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
> > > >The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
> > > No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
> > >
Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
I still hear <c> as an affricate.
I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
I figure an Anglophone would call it [E] and
a Malayalam speaker would call it the [E] allophone of /a/.
/ca/ often turns into [tSE] in Malayalam,
like my father just pronounced /carak-/ as [tSErak-].
> > >
> > I hear [tSE]. Interesting that you hear [ka].
> > What is [ä]? I hear German <ä> as [E].
> [ä] is a central low vowel. Often cited simply as [a]. But in some contexts, [a] is considered front and [A] back, hence the confusion.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Vowels
> ==
> Notes
>
> ⟨a⟩ officially represents a front vowel, but there is little distinction between front and central open vowels, and ⟨a⟩ is frequently used for an open central vowel.[42] If disambiguation is required, the retraction diacritic or the centralized diacritic may be added to indicate an open central vowel, as in ⟨a̠⟩ or ⟨ä⟩.
> => > >
> > > >The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
> > > > (the ending vowel of ancestry)
> > > Not surprising. The phonetic difference between [e] and [I] is largely
> > > undefined.
> > >
> > FWIW, Joe Cocker misheard VINCE, the name of Elvis P's character in Jailhouse Rock, and
> > gave himself a stage name VANCE Arnold*! I'm amazed that it's possible to hear [I] as [&].
> > * ... if you believe the story here of why Joe assumed that pseudonym:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cocker
> > >
> > > I clearly hear a cardinal [e], however, as expected.
> > >
> > Perhaps one needs a phone reading machine rather than a human to tell what a vowel is,
> > since humans (like Cocker above) influenced by their phonemes can hear one phone as another.
> The Praat software is supposed to be able to do that, but when I tried it, it was incomprehensible to me. Perhaps somebody else wants to try. ('Praat' means 'speak, talk' in Dutch. The makers are Dutch.)
>
> https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/
> (Wow, it also works on Linux!)
> > I have a terminal [I] in COUNTRY but I hear some Brits end it with [e] or [eI]. Listen:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Jbmz389M
> > What vowel do they think they use and what would a machine say their vowel is?
> [i], [e], [I], could be anything. Very similar to a final <ie> in Dutch, which is [i].

Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>> encastré
>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>
>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>
> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
> But that's the 1st vowel.
>
>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>
>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>
> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
> I still hear <c> as an affricate.

I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.

It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
with the italian [tS].

> I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].

It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.

> I figure an Anglophone would call it [E] and
> a Malayalam speaker would call it the [E] allophone of /a/.
> /ca/ often turns into [tSE] in Malayalam,
> like my father just pronounced /carak-/ as [tSErak-].
>>>>
>>> I hear [tSE]. Interesting that you hear [ka].
>>> What is [ä]? I hear German <ä> as [E].
>> [ä] is a central low vowel. Often cited simply as [a]. But in some
>> contexts, [a] is considered front and [A] back, hence the confusion.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Vowels
>> ==
>> Notes
>>
>> ⟨a⟩ officially represents a front vowel, but there is little distinction
>> between front and central open vowels, and ⟨a⟩ is frequently used for an
>> open central vowel.[42] If disambiguation is required, the retraction
>> diacritic or the centralized diacritic may be added to indicate an open
>> central vowel, as in ⟨a̠⟩ or ⟨ä⟩.
>> ==
>>>>
>>>>> The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
>>>>> (the ending vowel of ancestry)
>>>> Not surprising. The phonetic difference between [e] and [I] is largely
>>>> undefined.
>>>>
>>> FWIW, Joe Cocker misheard VINCE, the name of Elvis P's character in Jailhouse Rock, and
>>> gave himself a stage name VANCE Arnold*! I'm amazed that it's possible
>>> to hear [I] as [&].
>>> * ... if you believe the story here of why Joe assumed that pseudonym:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cocker
>>>>
>>>> I clearly hear a cardinal [e], however, as expected.
>>>>
>>> Perhaps one needs a phone reading machine rather than a human to tell what a vowel is,
>>> since humans (like Cocker above) influenced by their phonemes can hear
>>> one phone as another.
>> The Praat software is supposed to be able to do that, but when I tried
>> it, it was incomprehensible to me. Perhaps somebody else wants to try.
>> ('Praat' means 'speak, talk' in Dutch. The makers are Dutch.)
>>
>> https://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/
>> (Wow, it also works on Linux!)
>>> I have a terminal [I] in COUNTRY but I hear some Brits end it with [e] or [eI]. Listen:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Jbmz389M
>>> What vowel do they think they use and what would a machine say their vowel is?
>> [i], [e], [I], could be anything. Very similar to a final <ie> in Dutch, which is [i].
>

Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>
>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>
>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>
>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>
>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>
>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>
>I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.

Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
but as standard Parisian French.

No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.

>It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
>with the italian [tS].

>> I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
>
>It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 4:06:00 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
> >OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
>
> Please stop screaming, or I'll remove you.

If you don't misbehave, you don't get disciplined.

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:51:23 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 6:53 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:27:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> > IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
> > OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
> >
> >>> It would be simpler to just not drop the r's/
> >>
> >> Many Americans drop them too. Many more, who ARE rhotic, have very
> >> light final r's, not too different from mine, in Dutch.
> >
> > But non-rhotic Americans (Deep South, New York, Boston) do not pretend
> > that the vowels in the syllables that have lost their r are different from the
> > vowels that didn't have an r in the first place.
>
> Where would they do such pretending?
>
> And could you perhaps cite an example of this pretense among the hated
> Brits? (You've mentioned ita and Shavian -- is that all you mean by "they"?)

In any list of the phonemes of RP.

Bloomfield's *Language* (1935 British edition) was retranscribed to
change the AmE phonemicizations, for instance.

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>
>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>
>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>
>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>
>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>
>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>
> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
> but as standard Parisian French.
>
> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.

It may be an issue of aspiration.

>
>> It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
>> with the italian [tS].
>
>>> I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
>>
>> It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.
>

Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>
>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>
>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>
>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>
>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>
>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>
>It may be an issue of aspiration.

French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
aspiré is not.
>>> It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
>>> with the italian [tS].
>>
>>>> I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
>>>
>>> It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.
>>
>
>

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>>
>>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>>
>>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>>
>>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>>
>> It may be an issue of aspiration.
>
> French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
> aspiré is not.

The <c> in the audio clip is not what would be produced by an english,
german, or italian speaker. What is the difference? (Aside from the
preceding nasal which doesn't exist in any of those languages.)

>
>>>> It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
>>>> with the italian [tS].
>>>
>>>>> I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
>>>>
>>>> It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.
>>>
>>
>>
>

Op 7/06/2021 om 16:14 schreef António Marques:
> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>>>
>>>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>>>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>>>
>>>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>>>
>>> It may be an issue of aspiration.
>>
>> French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
>> aspiré is not.
>
> The <c> in the audio clip is not what would be produced by an english,
> german, or italian speaker. What is the difference? (Aside from the
> preceding nasal which doesn't exist in any of those languages.)

Really nothing remarkable against any normal k in 'our' languages, if
you ask me, and Ruud. Apart from an Ile de France accent, compare
https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=encastré&op=translate

--
guido wugi

Mon, 7 Jun 2021 14:14:27 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>>>
>>>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>>>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>>>
>>>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>>>
>>> It may be an issue of aspiration.
>>
>> French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
>> aspiré is not.
>
>The <c> in the audio clip is not what would be produced by an english,
>german, or italian speaker. What is the difference?

None.

>(Aside from the
>preceding nasal which doesn't exist in any of those languages.)

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet.arnaud@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:

>Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 19:21:09 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
>> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >timbre
>> >> >entente
>> >> >lignes
>> >> >macedoine
>> >>
>> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>>
>> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
>> What is a nasal stop??
>
>/n/ /m/ for example.

I simply call those nasals. The stop element would suggest there are
also nasal fricatives and nasal laterals?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2021-06-07, António Marques <antonioprm@sapo.pt> wrote:

>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>
>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>
>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>
>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>
> It may be an issue of aspiration.

Is the /k/ fronted? Maybe not as far as [c].

Is French /a/ actually front [a] as opposed to cental [ä]?
Ha, this diagram says so:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_phonology#/media/File:French_vowel_chart.svg

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:03:41 AM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
> > Groups <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> >>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> >>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
> >>>>> encastré
> >>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
> >>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
> >>>>
> >>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
> >>> pronunciation of oonchali.
> >> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
> >
> > Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
> > I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
> > But that's the 1st vowel.
> >
> >>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
> >>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
> >>>> languages dictate.
> >>>>
> >>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
> >> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
> >>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
> >>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
> >>>>
> > Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
> > I still hear <c> as an affricate.
> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>
> It's not a rare pronunciation in western Romance, and it bears no confusion
> with the italian [tS].
> > I still hear the vowel after it as somewhere between [E] & [e].
> It's a partly centralised [a], I'd say.

Centralised IPA [a] would be [ä] on the IPA vowel chart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio
French [a] is partly centralised by default (between [a] & [ä]) according a description
that said French has a "vowel triangle" rather than vowel quad. As for how Cyanokit's
vowel is different from the default partly centralised French [a], it seems raised.
Centralising it any further than French already centralises it would make it sound
close to [ɐ] in FUNK or [ä] in some Germans' pronunciation of FRANK.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 11:29:41 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
> >Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 19:21:09 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> >> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> >> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> >> >> >timbre
> >> >> >entente
> >> >> >lignes
> >> >> >macedoine
> >> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
> >> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> >> What is a nasal stop??
> >/n/ /m/ for example.
>
> I simply call those nasals. The stop element would suggest there are
> also nasal fricatives and nasal laterals?

There are. Learn some phonetics from a teacher.

There are thousands of languages in the world. Some of them are
spoken far from those familiar to you in Europe.

wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
> Op 7/06/2021 om 16:14 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>>>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>>>>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>>>>
>>>>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>>>>
>>>> It may be an issue of aspiration.
>>>
>>> French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
>>> aspiré is not.
>>
>> The <c> in the audio clip is not what would be produced by an english,
>> german, or italian speaker. What is the difference? (Aside from the
>> preceding nasal which doesn't exist in any of those languages.)
>
>
> Really nothing remarkable against any normal k in 'our' languages, if
> you ask me, and Ruud. Apart from an Ile de France accent, compare
> https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=encastré&op=translate
>

A much clearer c, quite unlike the quasi fricative on the other site (I
call it affricate because at the onset there's a (velar) stop).
Also a lower a.

If you lot think the two speakers sound the same, there's not really much I
can do.

Op 7/06/2021 om 19:10 schreef António Marques:
> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
>> Op 7/06/2021 om 16:14 schreef António Marques:
>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 13:09:09 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:39 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
>>>>>> <antonioprm@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen via Google
>>>>>>>> Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:59:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 8:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 4 Jun 2021 01:07:28 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>>>>>>>>>>> encastré
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't hear that. It's [A~] or maybe even [O~].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I hear a short duration nasal stop like in some Hindi speakers'
>>>>>>>>>> pronunciation of oonchali.
>>>>>>>>> Too many details for me. Millisecond hearing.
>>>>>>>> Hmm, this time, I hear just [a~] or [V~] in Kirshenbaum's usage.
>>>>>>>> I don't know why I detected a nasal stop the 1st time.
>>>>>>>> But that's the 1st vowel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, what else? A simple [k], as the spelling rules of ALL Romance
>>>>>>>>>>> languages dictate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ... like Italian pronounces c before e, not before a.
>>>>>>>>> I certainly do not hear THAT in https://forvo.com/word/encastré/
>>>>>>>>>>>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>>>>>>>>>>> No, [ä] or [a]. Central or front, fully open.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pronunciation by Cyanokit, right?
>>>>>>>> I still hear <c> as an affricate.
>>>>>>> I agree the <c> is an affricate and not at all like [k]. This is however a
>>>>>>> feature of this speaker / dialect, not of this word.
>>>>>> Very strange. This pronunciation doesn't strike me as dialect at all,
>>>>>> but as standard Parisian French.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No affricate, of whatever kind, in site here.
>>>>> It may be an issue of aspiration.
>>>> French is totally devoid of any kind of aspiration. Even the ache
>>>> aspiré is not.
>>> The <c> in the audio clip is not what would be produced by an english,
>>> german, or italian speaker. What is the difference? (Aside from the
>>> preceding nasal which doesn't exist in any of those languages.)
>>
>> Really nothing remarkable against any normal k in 'our' languages, if
>> you ask me, and Ruud. Apart from an Ile de France accent, compare
>> https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=encastré&op=translate
>>
> A much clearer c, quite unlike the quasi fricative on the other site (I
> call it affricate because at the onset there's a (velar) stop).
> Also a lower a.
>
> If you lot think the two speakers sound the same, there's not really much I
> can do.

Well, perhaps there is no need to (leave everyone happy with their accent;)

(not sure if google translate is human-generated, and if word
combinations are ditto. I recently had a case, German perhaps, where
compound words didn't have the proper transitions.)

--

guido wugi

On 7/06/2021 11:53 p.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:51:23 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 7/06/2021 6:53 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:27:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>
>>> IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
>>> OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
>>>
>>>>> It would be simpler to just not drop the r's/
>>>>
>>>> Many Americans drop them too. Many more, who ARE rhotic, have very
>>>> light final r's, not too different from mine, in Dutch.
>>>
>>> But non-rhotic Americans (Deep South, New York, Boston) do not pretend
>>> that the vowels in the syllables that have lost their r are different from the
>>> vowels that didn't have an r in the first place.
>>
>> Where would they do such pretending?
>>
>> And could you perhaps cite an example of this pretense among the hated
>> Brits? (You've mentioned ita and Shavian -- is that all you mean by "they"?)
>
> In any list of the phonemes of RP.

Oh. Well, here's one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

in which I read:

"Examples of long vowels: /iː/ in fleece, /uː/ in goose, /eə/ in bear,
/ɜː/ in nurse and furry, /ɔː/ in north, force and thought, /ɑː/ in
father and start."

Note particularly the last two. Where is the pretense?

> Bloomfield's *Language* (1935 British edition) was retranscribed to
> change the AmE phonemicizations, for instance.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 2:04:58 PM UTC-7, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 11:53 p.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:51:23 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >> On 7/06/2021 6:53 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:27:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
> >>> OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
> >>>
> >>>>> It would be simpler to just not drop the r's/
> >>>>
> >>>> Many Americans drop them too. Many more, who ARE rhotic, have very
> >>>> light final r's, not too different from mine, in Dutch.
> >>>
> >>> But non-rhotic Americans (Deep South, New York, Boston) do not pretend
> >>> that the vowels in the syllables that have lost their r are different from the
> >>> vowels that didn't have an r in the first place.
> >>
> >> Where would they do such pretending?
> >>
> >> And could you perhaps cite an example of this pretense among the hated
> >> Brits? (You've mentioned ita and Shavian -- is that all you mean by "they"?)
> >
> > In any list of the phonemes of RP.
> Oh. Well, here's one:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
>
> in which I read:
>
> "Examples of long vowels: /iː/ in fleece, /uː/ in goose, /eə/ in bear,
> /ɜː/ in nurse and furry, /ɔː/ in north, force and thought, /ɑː/ in
> father and start."
>
> Note particularly the last two. Where is the pretense?
> > Bloomfield's *Language* (1935 British edition) was retranscribed to
> > change the AmE phonemicizations, for instance.

I hear 3 Brits pronunciations of bear: [bɛ:], [bɛə]and [beə].
I've posted a sound clip from BBC where the speaker says [ðɛ:].
[eə] is used in Mayor. (In the US, Mayor can be [mɛ:])
In a word like <bear>, I've seen [eə] caricatured as though it's deviant.
The caricature I remember is the respelling: "Are you theyah?"
if [ðeə] is standard RP, why caricature it as <theyah>?

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:49:44 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> I hear 3 Brits pronunciations of bear: [bɛ:], [bɛə]and [beə].
> I've posted a sound clip from BBC where the speaker says [ðɛ:].
> [eə] is used in Mayor. (In the US, Mayor can be [mɛ:])
> In a word like <bear>, I've seen [eə] caricatured as though it's deviant.
> The caricature I remember is the respelling: "Are you theyah?"
> if [ðeə] is standard RP, why caricature it as <theyah>?

Two syllables.

Mon, 7 Jun 2021 09:58:02 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 11:29:41 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
>> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>> >Le jeudi 3 juin 2021 à 19:21:09 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
>> >> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> >> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> >> >timbre
>> >> >> >entente
>> >> >> >lignes
>> >> >> >macedoine
>> >> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>> >> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
>> >> What is a nasal stop??
>> >/n/ /m/ for example.
>>
>> I simply call those nasals. The stop element would suggest there are
>> also nasal fricatives and nasal laterals?
>
>There are. Learn some phonetics from a teacher.

Just name the languages and give the symbols. Describe the
articulation mechanisms.

Note: I'm talking about nasal, not nasalised here. A [z~] of course is
physically possible, but I've read about a language in which it
occurs.

>There are thousands of languages in the world. Some of them are
>spoken far from those familiar to you in Europe.

Really?

Tue, 08 Jun 2021 07:57:04 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Note: I'm talking about nasal, not nasalised here. A [z~] of course is
>physically possible, but I've read about a language in which it
>occurs.

Not. Not read. I never leave out essential words, never ever.

On 2021-06-07 21:04:48 +0000, Ross Clark said:

> On 7/06/2021 11:53 p.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:51:23 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>>> On 7/06/2021 6:53 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:27:22 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> IF YOU QUOTE SOMEONE, DO NOT REMOVE THE IDENTIFICATION
>>>> OF WHOM YOU QUOTE.
>>>>
>>>>>> It would be simpler to just not drop the r's/
>>>>>
>>>>> Many Americans drop them too. Many more, who ARE rhotic, have very
>>>>> light final r's, not too different from mine, in Dutch.
>>>>
>>>> But non-rhotic Americans (Deep South, New York, Boston) do not pretend
>>>> that the vowels in the syllables that have lost their r are different from the
>>>> vowels that didn't have an r in the first place.
>>>
>>> Where would they do such pretending?
>>>
>>> And could you perhaps cite an example of this pretense among the hated
>>> Brits? (You've mentioned ita and Shavian -- is that all you mean by "they"?)
>>
>> In any list of the phonemes of RP.
>
> Oh. Well, here's one:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
>
> in which I read:
>
> "Examples of long vowels: /iː/ in fleece, /uː/ in goose, /eə/ in bear,
> /ɜː/ in nurse and furry, /ɔː/ in north, force and thought, /ɑː/ in
> father and start."

Those agree perfectly with the way I say those words, with the possible
exception of nurse, which I would probably have written as [nə:s].
>
> Note particularly the last two. Where is the pretense?
>
>> Bloomfield's *Language* (1935 British edition) was retranscribed to
>> change the AmE phonemicizations, for instance.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years