On Wed, 09 Feb 2022 06:15:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:59:38 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2022 1:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> >> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>> >>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>> >>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>> >>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>> >>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>> >>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>> >>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>> >>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>> >>> lot of respect.
>>> >> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>> >> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>> >> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>> >> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>> >> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>> >> pistol.
>>> >>
>>> >> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>> >> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >>
>>> >> John B.
>>> >
>>> > Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>> >
>>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>>> (who knew?
>>>
>>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>>
>>They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure. Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.
>
>Well, the Girandoni air gun was in use by the Austrian Army for
>something like 50 years, albeit for some years as a sniper's weapon.

The blasted spelling checker failed again and the "50" above should
have been spelled "35" (:-)

In contrast the U.S. M14 rifle seems to have been the standard U.S.
Infantry rifle from 1959 until 1964
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>> pistol.
>>>>
>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> John B.
>>>
>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>
>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>
> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.

True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
understand, and probably difficult to work on.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 21:31:13 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>
>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>
>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>
>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>
>True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>understand, and probably difficult to work on.

I'm certainly that the air gun was far more complex. I did try to
research it a bit and all I've seen so far is that it took 1500
strokes of the pump to reach the full loaded condition.

My point was that even with a flintlock it takes qualified people to
maintain or repair it. If for no other reason than there were no
interchangeable parts and anything replaced called for very careful
filling, scraping and fitting.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 19:21:36 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>>rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>
>Try 1780 instead.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>
>
>>(who knew?
>
>Google knew but I didn't.
>
>>Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>>https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
>Some videos on how it works:
><https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>
>
>"Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>
>
>How it works:
>"Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
><https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>
>
>Lots of interesting stuff here:
>"Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
><http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
>20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military version.
>This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:
>
>"The system really was more suited to hunters who do not fire so many
>shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped up at
>leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do not depend
>on the gun."
>
>"A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those large caliber
>balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use, discharged, or
>partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for fresh full
>ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel pumps or
>special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000 pre-charged air
>cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines. Certainly the
>soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three cylinders in
>regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with the hand
>pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour of hard
>pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost without dead
>space would be useful in topping off high pressure in partially
>expended cylinders."
>
>I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>
>Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli Whitney didn't
>make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I would guess
>that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled individually.
>
>Does this research and guesswork compensate for my mistakes earlier in
>this thread?

The first hand held micrometer dates to 1848.

And I have read that the Whitney interchangeable parts weren't truly
interchangeable parts in the sense that you could take the part out of
one musket and it would fit perfectly in any other musket. In today's
terminology it is probably something like semi fitted or partially
fitted.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> <https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
> "The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
> 103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
> piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
> that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
> efficiency during pumping is minimal."

One has to wonder what's wrong with their pump. Let's see, even a 40cm stroke pump, with Silca's 1.9cm diameter should deliver pi*(1.9/2)^2*40 ~= 113cc per stroke. 103psi is about 7atm of gauge pressure, so to fill a 25cc tire, that would be a total of 7*25=375cc of uncompressed air being delivered. That's 3.3cc per stroke, or under 3% volumetric efficiency, even worse if the actual pump is longer than the 40cm stroke assumed.

One also wonders what kind of road tire has only 25cc of volume.

-Luns

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 00:06:12 -0800 (PST), Luns Tee <luns@berkeley.edu>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> <https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
>> "The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
>> 103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
>> piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
>> that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
>> efficiency during pumping is minimal."
>
>One has to wonder what's wrong with their pump. Let's see, even a 40cm stroke pump, with Silca's 1.9cm diameter should deliver pi*(1.9/2)^2*40 ~= 113cc per stroke. 103psi is about 7atm of gauge pressure, so to fill a 25cc tire, that would be a total of 7*25=375cc of uncompressed air being delivered. That's 3.3cc per stroke, or under 3% volumetric efficiency, even worse if the actual pump is longer than the 40cm stroke assumed.
>
>One also wonders what kind of road tire has only 25cc of volume.
>
>-Luns

He probably meant to write "25mm" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 3:06:15 AM UTC-5, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > <https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
> > "The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
> > 103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
> > piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
> > that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
> > efficiency during pumping is minimal."
> One has to wonder what's wrong with their pump. Let's see, even a 40cm stroke pump, with Silca's 1.9cm diameter should deliver pi*(1.9/2)^2*40 ~= 113cc per stroke. 103psi is about 7atm of gauge pressure, so to fill a 25cc tire, that would be a total of 7*25=375cc of uncompressed air being delivered. That's 3.3cc per stroke, or under 3% volumetric efficiency, even worse if the actual pump is longer than the 40cm stroke assumed.
>
> One also wonders what kind of road tire has only 25cc of volume.

I was going to suggest that 112 strokes to reach 103 PSI doesn't seem all that impressive.

On 2/8/2022 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
>>>>>>>>> in a search:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the
>>>>>>> way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
>>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the
>>>>>>> correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer
>>>>>>> and the spring that drives it have to be carefully
>>>>>>> calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire
>>>>>>> reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles
>>>>>>> most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But
>>>>>>> either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly
>>>>>>> how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the
>>>>>>> internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if
>>>>>>> you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far
>>>>>>> the striker can't release all the air and velocity
>>>>>>> starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
>>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
>>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
>>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
>>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the
>>>>>>> earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit
>>>>>>> earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman,
>>>>>>> Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read
>>>>>>> about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
>>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations
>>>>>> before each new
>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it
>>>>>> was quite
>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
>>>>>> Indians were familiar
>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or
>>>>>> so. It generated a
>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
>>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
>>>>> shooter could fire
>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
>>>>> from this air gun
>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred
>>>>> paces, an
>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45
>>>>> ACP caliber
>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>
>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
>>>>> the times could
>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder
>>>> for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of
>>>> reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary
>>>> machine to reload the air gun with compressed air?
>>>> Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded
>>>> individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask
>>>> of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>
>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
>>> by some European
>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
>>> an unusually
>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>
>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
>> technician. Remember
>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>
> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
> its operation. My understanding is that the valving in those
> early air rifles was much more complex than a flintlock,
> much less easy for men of the time to understand, and
> probably difficult to work on.
>

I'm not an expert but open-pan black powder presents issues
of moisture, misfires and slow arduous reloading procedures.
The whole area, like human innovation generally, shows
constant improvement, creativity and technical rigor. The
fact that some innovations are ultimately failures
(pneumatic bicycle gear shift, centrifugal automatic gear
shift, etc) doesn't stop innovation.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/8/2022 9:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:36:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> They didn't have real material for a good seal so I have to wonder how this air rifle was charged and how you could discharge it without the air pressure getting so low that the later shots had little pressure.
>
> Looks like they did use leather:
> <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
> <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns_files/image006.jpg>
> "The air valve consists of three stacked pieces of hard leather, cut
> to a 60 degree slope to match the slope of the brass valve seat."
>
>> Yes, they could use leather but try any bicycle pumps that use leather as an air seal and you know how rapidly they degrade.
>
> The leather seal in a bicycle pump is a "piston seal", not a "valve
> seal". Many modern bicycle pumps continue to use leather piston seals
> because they can last forever (when properly oiled and cleaned).
> <https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/biking/best-frame-pump>
> "The Silca Impero is our favorite frame pump, hitting an impressive
> 103 psi at only 112 strokes in a 25cc road tire. Silca uses a leather
> piston that can better adapt to the micro changes in chamber diameter
> that occur with heat buildup. Due to this design, the loss of
> efficiency during pumping is minimal."
>
> I also have some experience with leather piston seals in older Coleman
> fuel lanterns. In these, the leather piston can be exposed to white
> gas, which washes off most lubricants and leather oils. In my
> experience with Coleman camping equipment, the leather piston seals
> last much longer than the molded rubber abominations.
>
>

Not the only example. The leather piston in a Milton
inflator gauge lasts decades in regular use with no obvious
wear or loss of accuracy.

https://www.centurytool.net/v/vspfiles/photos/MIL507B-2T.jpg

Seals between the white gauge cylinder and the brass outer
housing tube.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>
> Try 1780 instead.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>
>
>> (who knew?
>
> Google knew but I didn't.
>
>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>
> Some videos on how it works:
> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>
>
> "Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>
>
> How it works:
> "Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
> <https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>
>
> Lots of interesting stuff here:
> "Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
> <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
> 20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military version.
> This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:
>
> "The system really was more suited to hunters who do not fire so many
> shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped up at
> leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do not depend
> on the gun."
>
> "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those large caliber
> balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use, discharged, or
> partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for fresh full
> ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel pumps or
> special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000 pre-charged air
> cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines. Certainly the
> soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three cylinders in
> regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with the hand
> pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour of hard
> pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost without dead
> space would be useful in topping off high pressure in partially
> expended cylinders."
>
> I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>
> Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli Whitney didn't
> make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I would guess
> that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled individually.
>
> Does this research and guesswork compensate for my mistakes earlier in
> this thread?

Yes, well done.

And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no technical need to
make the gun look so much like a flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or
flint holder swinging forward and down. But if soldiers were used to
flintlocks, that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/9/2022 10:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
>>> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
>>
>> Try 1780 instead.
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>
>>
>>
>>> (who knew?
>>
>> Google knew but I didn't.
>>
>>> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
>>> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
>>>
>>
>> Some videos on how it works:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>
>>
>>
>> "Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>
>>
>> How it works:
>> "Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
>> <https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>
>>
>> Lots of interesting stuff here:
>> "Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
>> <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
>> 20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military
>> version.
>> This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:
>>
>> "The system really was more suited to hunters who do not
>> fire so many
>> shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped
>> up at
>> leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do
>> not depend
>> on the gun."
>>
>> "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those
>> large caliber
>> balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use,
>> discharged, or
>> partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for
>> fresh full
>> ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel
>> pumps or
>> special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000
>> pre-charged air
>> cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines.
>> Certainly the
>> soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three
>> cylinders in
>> regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with
>> the hand
>> pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour
>> of hard
>> pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost
>> without dead
>> space would be useful in topping off high pressure in
>> partially
>> expended cylinders."
>>
>> I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>>
>> Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli
>> Whitney didn't
>> make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I
>> would guess
>> that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled
>> individually.
>>
>> Does this research and guesswork compensate for my
>> mistakes earlier in
>> this thread?
>
> Yes, well done.
>
> And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no
> technical need to make the gun look so much like a
> flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or flint holder swinging
> forward and down. But if soldiers were used to flintlocks,
> that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.
>
>

A good point to stop and reflect on the 'weird but powerful'
effect of Fashion.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>>> pistol.
> >>>>
> >>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> John B.
> >>>
> >>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>
> >> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> >> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> >> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >
> > Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> > that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> understand, and probably difficult to work on.

Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge..

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 5:44:13 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
> >>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
> >>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
> >>>>>>>>> in a search:
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the
> >>>>>>> way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
> >>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the
> >>>>>>> correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer
> >>>>>>> and the spring that drives it have to be carefully
> >>>>>>> calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire
> >>>>>>> reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles
> >>>>>>> most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But
> >>>>>>> either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly
> >>>>>>> how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the
> >>>>>>> internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if
> >>>>>>> you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far
> >>>>>>> the striker can't release all the air and velocity
> >>>>>>> starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
> >>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
> >>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
> >>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
> >>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the
> >>>>>>> earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit
> >>>>>>> earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman,
> >>>>>>> Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read
> >>>>>>> about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
> >>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations
> >>>>>> before each new
> >>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it
> >>>>>> was quite
> >>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
> >>>>>> Indians were familiar
> >>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or
> >>>>>> so. It generated a
> >>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
> >>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
> >>>>> shooter could fire
> >>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
> >>>>> from this air gun
> >>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred
> >>>>> paces, an
> >>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45
> >>>>> ACP caliber
> >>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
> >>>>> the times could
> >>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>>
> >>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder
> >>>> for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of
> >>>> reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary
> >>>> machine to reload the air gun with compressed air?
> >>>> Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded
> >>>> individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask
> >>>> of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>>
> >>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
> >>> by some European
> >>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
> >>> an unusually
> >>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>
> >> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
> >> technician. Remember
> >> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> >
> > True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
> > its operation. My understanding is that the valving in those
> > early air rifles was much more complex than a flintlock,
> > much less easy for men of the time to understand, and
> > probably difficult to work on.
> >
> I'm not an expert but open-pan black powder presents issues
> of moisture, misfires and slow arduous reloading procedures.
> The whole area, like human innovation generally, shows
> constant improvement, creativity and technical rigor. The
> fact that some innovations are ultimately failures
> (pneumatic bicycle gear shift, centrifugal automatic gear
> shift, etc) doesn't stop innovation.

Look at this from Jeff's citation: "supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."

I have used tire pumps with leather cylinder seals and contrary to Jeff's claim they had absolutely lousy reliability. Who pulls apart a pump and cleans and oils the leather seals? My Silca Pista has one weak spot - the rubber valve seal So you buy a number of replacements and as they fail you replace them.

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 8:53:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:59:31 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I knew nothing of it until mention here. Searching '1790 air
> >> rifle' doesn't help- '1790' is a current model air rifle
> >
> > Try 1780 instead.
> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=girandoni+air+rifle+1780&tbm=isch>
> >
> >> (who knew?
> >
> > Google knew but I didn't.
> >
> >> Quite advanced and clever thing! Here's more:
> >> https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/12/13/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/
> >
> > Some videos on how it works:
> > <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Girandoni+Air+Rifle>
> >
> > "Girardoni Air Gun (original 1780 example)" (11:29 min)
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZLeEUE940>
> >
> > How it works:
> > "Girandoni style pneumatic rifle c.1780, Vienna"
> > <https://imgur.com/gallery/yAktn>
> >
> > Lots of interesting stuff here:
> > "Austrian Large Bore Airguns"
> > <http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm>
> > 20 or 22 shot speedloader or gravity feed on the military version.
> > This might be a clue why they did not replace black powder:
> >
> > "The system really was more suited to hunters who do not fire so many
> > shots as a soldier, who can have the air reservoirs pumped up at
> > leisure - even by a servant, and whose lives generally do not depend
> > on the gun."
> >
> > "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those large caliber
> > balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use, discharged, or
> > partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for fresh full
> > ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel pumps or
> > special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000 pre-charged air
> > cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines. Certainly the
> > soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three cylinders in
> > regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with the hand
> > pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour of hard
> > pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost without dead
> > space would be useful in topping off high pressure in partially
> > expended cylinders."
> >
> > I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
> >
> > Also note the number of intricate parts needed. Eli Whitney didn't
> > make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I would guess
> > that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled individually.
> >
> > Does this research and guesswork compensate for my mistakes earlier in
> > this thread?
> Yes, well done.
>
> And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no technical need to
> make the gun look so much like a flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or
> flint holder swinging forward and down. But if soldiers were used to
> flintlocks, that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.

I don't think that was made to look like a flintlock, but rather to load the spring on the air release valve. I made the same mistake of thinking that it appeared to be a caplock.

On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>
>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>
>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>
> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.

<sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>>>
> >>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> >>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> >>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>>
> >>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> >>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> >> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> >> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> >> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> >> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> >
> > Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.

And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged. Tell me Frank. Why do you make comments when you haven't even a clue what this was all about.

"supported by wheeled air pumps and wagons of pre-charged air bottles. These air guns easily were put of service and needed constant and expert tending. A Girandoni air rifle was predestined to give inexperienced users trouble and charging with individual hand pumps was punishing to the user. The dependability of the gun for lethal combat, under field conditions, especially without the backup of dozens of other airguns, was not high."

Tell is all how the Lewis and Clark expedition moved wheeled air pumps along waterways with boats often no bigger than Indian canoes? When you are ignorant perhaps your (sigh)ing simply shows your ignorance.

On 2/9/2022 11:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 10:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> "A fully loaded Girandoni kit had eighty more of those
>>> large caliber
>>> balls ready for rapid action! In typical military use,
>>> discharged, or
>>> partially discharged, air cylinders would be exchanged for
>>> fresh full
>>> ones by runners going back and forth to stationary wheel
>>> pumps or
>>> special two axle wagons designed to carry up to 1000
>>> pre-charged air
>>> cylinders, both positioned behind the combat lines.
>>> Certainly the
>>> soldiers were not going to fully pump up their three
>>> cylinders in
>>> regular use as this would require about 4500 strokes with
>>> the hand
>>> pump! Even a single cylinder could have taken a half hour
>>> of hard
>>> pumping action! But the long slim pump, designed almost
>>> without dead
>>> space would be useful in topping off high pressure in
>>> partially
>>> expended cylinders."
>>>
>>> I read this as 1500 strokes to fill one cylinder.
>>>
>>> Also note the number of intricate parts needed.  Eli
>>> Whitney didn't
>>> make muskets with interchangeable parts until 1798, so I
>>> would guess
>>> that each Girandoni rifle was hand crafted and assembled
>>> individually.
>>>
>>> Does this research and guesswork compensate for my
>>> mistakes earlier in
>>> this thread?
>>
>> Yes, well done.
>>
>> And a comment on Human Factors: There was probably no
>> technical need to make the gun look so much like a
>> flintlock, or to have a fake "cock" or flint holder swinging
>> forward and down. But if soldiers were used to flintlocks,
>> that feature of the air rifle probably aided training.
>>
>>
>
> A good point to stop and reflect on the 'weird but powerful' effect of
> Fashion.

I'd argue that's not fashion. That's human factors design, acknowledging
the influence of prior experience by the operator. Especially in a
combat or other emergency situation, you'd want to minimize the chance
that a highly stressed operator would forget what to do. You'd want his
prior reflexes to remain valid.

Here's a possible analogy: Automatic transmission cars still tend to
have the brake pedal right next to the gas pedal (or, um, "go" pedal,
thinking of electric cars). And I think most drivers still brake with
their right foot while the left foot lays idle.

So why did the very first automatic transmission cars not move the brake
pedal to far left, for left foot braking? Probably because motorists'
reflexes would have mashed it to the floor (trying to de-clutch) as they
approached a stop sign. (Confession: I made that mistake once, long ago,
while chauffeuring my mother in her car.)

I'd bet Girandoni thought the same way: "Keep it familiar." But I admit,
it's also possible that during the design phase, Girandoni himself was
biased toward what was familiar, and may never have considered an
alternative.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/9/2022 11:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
>> Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
>>>>>>>>>>> in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely
>>>>>>>>> the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
>>>>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let
>>>>>>>>> the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the
>>>>>>>>> hammer and the spring that drives it have to be
>>>>>>>>> carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the
>>>>>>>>> entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup
>>>>>>>>> air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple
>>>>>>>>> shots. But either way uses a striker to open the
>>>>>>>>> valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader
>>>>>>>>> valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds
>>>>>>>>> the valve closed, if you pump up one of those
>>>>>>>>> multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't
>>>>>>>>> release all the air and velocity starts to
>>>>>>>>> decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
>>>>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
>>>>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
>>>>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
>>>>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and
>>>>>>>>> the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a
>>>>>>>>> bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert
>>>>>>>>> Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where
>>>>>>>>> I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
>>>>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in
>>>>>>>> demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently,
>>>>>>>> it was quite
>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
>>>>>>>> Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds
>>>>>>>> or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
>>>>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
>>>>>>> shooter could fire
>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
>>>>>>> from this air gun
>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a
>>>>>>> hundred paces, an
>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or
>>>>>>> .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
>>>>>>> the times could
>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun
>>>>>> powder for a propellant in firearms due to the
>>>>>> complexity of reloading it? Required a large
>>>>>> cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun
>>>>>> with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the
>>>>>> time could be loaded individually by the shooter
>>>>>> almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily
>>>>>> by the shooter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
>>>>> by some European
>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
>>>>> an unusually
>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>
>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
>>>> technician. Remember
>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable
>>>> parts.
>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
>>> its operation.
>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air
>>> rifles was much
>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of
>>> the time to
>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>
>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since
>> there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by
>> a pump but via an explosive charge.
>
> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>

Mr Kunich corrected himself, which is a fine adult thing to
do. We all err.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>>
>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>
> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.

Wrong yet again, Tom!

FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
described in many of those.

But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
mechanism and operation.

See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
first pops into your mind.

Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:48:16 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 11:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
> >> Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John
> >>>>>> B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
> >>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
> >>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
> >>>>>>>>>>> in a search:
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely
> >>>>>>>>> the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
> >>>>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let
> >>>>>>>>> the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the
> >>>>>>>>> hammer and the spring that drives it have to be
> >>>>>>>>> carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the
> >>>>>>>>> entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup
> >>>>>>>>> air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple
> >>>>>>>>> shots. But either way uses a striker to open the
> >>>>>>>>> valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader
> >>>>>>>>> valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds
> >>>>>>>>> the valve closed, if you pump up one of those
> >>>>>>>>> multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't
> >>>>>>>>> release all the air and velocity starts to
> >>>>>>>>> decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
> >>>>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
> >>>>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
> >>>>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
> >>>>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and
> >>>>>>>>> the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a
> >>>>>>>>> bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert
> >>>>>>>>> Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where
> >>>>>>>>> I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
> >>>>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in
> >>>>>>>> demonstrations before each new
> >>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently,
> >>>>>>>> it was quite
> >>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
> >>>>>>>> Indians were familiar
> >>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds
> >>>>>>>> or so. It generated a
> >>>>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
> >>>>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
> >>>>>>> shooter could fire
> >>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
> >>>>>>> from this air gun
> >>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a
> >>>>>>> hundred paces, an
> >>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or
> >>>>>>> .45 ACP caliber
> >>>>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
> >>>>>>> the times could
> >>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun
> >>>>>> powder for a propellant in firearms due to the
> >>>>>> complexity of reloading it? Required a large
> >>>>>> cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun
> >>>>>> with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the
> >>>>>> time could be loaded individually by the shooter
> >>>>>> almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily
> >>>>>> by the shooter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
> >>>>> by some European
> >>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
> >>>>> an unusually
> >>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>>>
> >>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
> >>>> technician. Remember
> >>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable
> >>>> parts.
> >>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
> >>> its operation.
> >>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air
> >>> rifles was much
> >>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of
> >>> the time to
> >>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> >>
> >> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since
> >> there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by
> >> a pump but via an explosive charge.
> >
> > <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> >
> Mr Kunich corrected himself, which is a fine adult thing to
> do. We all err.
> --

Yup, Tommy is well-known for admitting his mistakes

On 2/9/2022 12:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 11:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank
>>> Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result
>>>>>>>>>>>> in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely
>>>>>>>>>> the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it
>>>>>>>>>> closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let
>>>>>>>>>> the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the
>>>>>>>>>> hammer and the spring that drives it have to be
>>>>>>>>>> carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the
>>>>>>>>>> entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup
>>>>>>>>>> air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple
>>>>>>>>>> shots. But either way uses a striker to open the
>>>>>>>>>> valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader
>>>>>>>>>> valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds
>>>>>>>>>> the valve closed, if you pump up one of those
>>>>>>>>>> multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't
>>>>>>>>>> release all the air and velocity starts to
>>>>>>>>>> decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the
>>>>>>>>>> inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working
>>>>>>>>>> principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve
>>>>>>>>>> itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s
>>>>>>>>>> although there is a claim for one about 1430, and
>>>>>>>>>> the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a
>>>>>>>>>> bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert
>>>>>>>>>> Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where
>>>>>>>>>> I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their
>>>>>>>>> expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in
>>>>>>>>> demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently,
>>>>>>>>> it was quite
>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the
>>>>>>>>> Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds
>>>>>>>>> or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried
>>>>>>>> twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled
>>>>>>>> shooter could fire
>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot
>>>>>>>> from this air gun
>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a
>>>>>>>> hundred paces, an
>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or
>>>>>>>> .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of
>>>>>>>> the times could
>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun
>>>>>>> powder for a propellant in firearms due to the
>>>>>>> complexity of reloading it? Required a large
>>>>>>> cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun
>>>>>>> with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the
>>>>>>> time could be loaded individually by the shooter
>>>>>>> almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily
>>>>>>> by the shooter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree
>>>>>> by some European
>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring
>>>>>> an unusually
>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled
>>>>> technician. Remember
>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable
>>>>> parts.
>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in
>>>> its operation.
>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air
>>>> rifles was much
>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of
>>>> the time to
>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>>
>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since
>>> there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by
>>> a pump but via an explosive charge.
>>
>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>>
>
> Mr Kunich corrected himself, which is a fine adult thing to do. We all err.

True. Too bad his self-correction was burdened with his usual boorish
insults.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>>>>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter..
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> >>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> >>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> >>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> >>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> >>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> >>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> >>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> >>>
> >>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> >> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> >
> > And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
> Wrong yet again, Tom!
>
> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
> described in many of those.
>
> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
> mechanism and operation.
>
> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
> first pops into your mind.
>
> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!

Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?

On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>>>
>>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
>> Wrong yet again, Tom!
>>
>> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
>> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
>> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
>> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
>> described in many of those.
>>
>> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
>> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
>> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
>> mechanism and operation.
>>
>> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
>> first pops into your mind.
>>
>> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
>
> Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?

SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
> >>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
> >>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
> >>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
> >>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
> >>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
> >>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
> >>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
> >>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
> >>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
> >>>>>>>>>> pistol.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
> >>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
> >>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
> >>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
> >>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
> >>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
> >>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
> >>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
> >>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
> >>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
> >>>
> >>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
> >> Wrong yet again, Tom!
> >>
> >> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
> >> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
> >> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
> >> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
> >> described in many of those.
> >>
> >> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
> >> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
> >> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
> >> mechanism and operation.
> >>
> >> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
> >> first pops into your mind.
> >>
> >> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
> >
> > Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?
> SMH

I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?

On 2/9/2022 4:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/9/2022 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:49:00 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 9:24:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/9/2022 12:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 15:52:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2022 2:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 6:10:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 12:03:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2022 9:22 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2022 13:52:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no reason to make things up. First result in a search:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.schradertpms.com/en/company/schrader-history/historical-timeline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing in the timeline that mentions air guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because airguns predate inflatable rubber tires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The airgun hammer opened valve operates precisely the way the Schrader valve does. Pressure holds it closed, the hammer strike opens it enough to let the correct amount of air escape. The mass of the hammer and the spring that drives it have to be carefully calculated to get consistent velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither CO2 nor Precharged airguns exhaust the entire reservoir, unlike those inexpensive pumpup air rifles most of us had as kids. You get multiple shots. But either way uses a striker to open the valve, exactly how you release air from a Schrader valve. Since the internal pressure is what holds the valve closed, if you pump up one of those multipump Crosmans too far the striker can't release all the air and velocity starts to decrease. Also your arm gets tired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea was that the airgun valve was the inspiration for the Schrader valve, and the working principle is the same, not that the Schrader valve itself is used on both. Airguns date to the 1500s although there is a claim for one about 1430, and the earliest pumped reservoir type in 1600, so a bit earlier than bicycles. (reference Robert Beeman, Airgun Digest, 1967) I don't remember where I read about the valves but will look for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis & Clark took a large air rifle on their expedition to the Pacific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They used it primarily (maybe only?) in demonstrations before each new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Native American tribe they encountered. Apparently, it was quite
>>>>>>>>>>>>> powerful, and as opposed to a muzzle loader the Indians were familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with, it could be fire rounds every couple seconds or so. It generated a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of respect.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In about 1790 the Girandoni air rifle carried twenty-two .51 caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>> (13 mm) lead balls in a tubular magazine. A skilled shooter could fire
>>>>>>>>>>>> off one magazine in about thirty seconds and a shot from this air gun
>>>>>>>>>>>> could penetrate an inch thick wooden board at a hundred paces, an
>>>>>>>>>>>> effect roughly equal to that of a modern 9×19mm or .45 ACP caliber
>>>>>>>>>>>> pistol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In contrast a muzzle loading, smooth bore, musket of the times could
>>>>>>>>>>>> be fired, by an expert, some 3 to 4 shots a minute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guessing this 1790 air gun did not take over gun powder for a propellant in firearms due to the complexity of reloading it? Required a large cumbersome stationary machine to reload the air gun with compressed air? Whereas black powder guns at the time could be loaded individually by the shooter almost anywhere by a flask of gunpowder carried easily by the shooter.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Something like that. IIRC they were used to some degree by some European
>>>>>>>>>> armies. I guess maintenance was quite tricky, requiring an unusually
>>>>>>>>>> skilled technician. Those guys were in short supply.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, to an extent, firearms required a skilled technician. Remember
>>>>>>>>> that this was long before the days if interchangeable parts.
>>>>>>>> True, but a flintlock (for instance) is pretty obvious in its operation.
>>>>>>>> My understanding is that the valving in those early air rifles was much
>>>>>>>> more complex than a flintlock, much less easy for men of the time to
>>>>>>>> understand, and probably difficult to work on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank, do you know HOW that "air gun" was charged? Since there is a cap lock, it appears that it was charged not by a pump but via an explosive charge.
>>>>>> <sigh> Sorry, Tom, you're wrong again.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet you didn't have the slightest idea of how it was charged.
>>>> Wrong yet again, Tom!
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I knew about the Girandoni for years. I've long been a Lewis &
>>>> Clark fan. (That's why we followed most of their route when we rode
>>>> coast to coast.) I've got Ambrose's _Undaunted Courage_ (and several
>>>> other relevant books) on the shelf just behind me. The rifle was
>>>> described in many of those.
>>>>
>>>> But I learned finer details of the Girandoni just a few weeks ago, when
>>>> a good friend asked me to consult on his purchase of an air rifle. One
>>>> conversation led to another, and I eventually read up on the Girandoni
>>>> mechanism and operation.
>>>>
>>>> See, I tend to read and research. You tend to spout whatever nonsense
>>>> first pops into your mind.
>>>>
>>>> Education. It's amazingly useful! Try it!
>>>
>>> Tell me about this ultra-vast education of yours Frank. According to the citation of Jeff you had to have a large wheel drawn air pump to charge that air gun. Explain to us how they carried a wheeled horse drawn air pump on the terrain they covered? How did they carry it on the Canoe's they were forced to use for river crossings? Is there one thing in your head except hate and envy for me for being successful while you made a failing grade?
>> SMH
>
> I know that you know little to nothing about the history of the United States but the Lewis and Clark Expedition traveled almost entirely by river making the carrying of a heavy wheeled pump for charging mechanism very difficult in the early part of the trip up the Missouri River difficult and the later parts on the later parts past Fort Mandan impossible. When you don't know about things why are you continuously attempting to act like you do?