On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
> >> >>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
> >> >>> that field!
> >> >>
> >> >> (:-)
> >> >> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
> >> >> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
> >> >> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
> >> >> miles.
> >> >>
> >> >> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
> >> >> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
> >> >> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
> >> >> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
> >> >> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
> >> >> charge them."
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >So nothing's changed.
> >> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
> >> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
> >> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
> >
> >I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(

Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.

>
> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>
> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?

Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.

The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 11:26:23 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 4/28/2022 6:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > The ships are going to be tough. Charging facilities on the high seas are
> > admittedly few and far between.
> <https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/12/swedish-firm-wind-powered-cargo-ships>.
> Wind-powered ships! What will they think of next? What a time to be alive!

When I first read your description, but before clicking on the link, I thought: Sailboat. The original wind-powered ship. What's old is new again or something like that.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
>> >> >>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
>> >> >>> that field!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (:-)
>> >> >> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
>> >> >> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
>> >> >> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
>> >> >> miles.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
>> >> >> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
>> >> >> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
>> >> >> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
>> >> >> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
>> >> >> charge them."
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >So nothing's changed.
>> >> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
>> >> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
>> >> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
>> >
>> >I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
>> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
>> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
>
>Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
>
>
>
>>
>> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>>
>> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
>> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
>> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
>
>Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
>
You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
shouting about diesel trucks and ships?

And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
engines?

In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)

Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
store?

>The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.

Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
the vehicles or the upkeep.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:24:29 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:03:59 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > > On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> > >> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > >>> On 4/27/2022 8:27 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> <snip>
> > >>>
> > >>>> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
> > >>>> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
> > >>>> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time..
> > >>>
> > >>> That's the time when the utilities have a lot of unused capacity that
> > >>> can't be stored, from wind and hydro.
> > >>
> > >> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
> > >> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
> > >> problem.
> > >
> > > Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
> > > reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
> > >
> > Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
> > such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
> > then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
> >
> > Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
> > even out wind/solar etc.
> >
> > Roger Merriman.
> Battery farms are not a particularly good idea totally aside from their habit of catching fire and even exploding, "LITHIUM HYDROXIDE MONOHYDRATE HAZARD SUMMARY
> Lithium Hydroxide Monohydrate is on the Hazardous Substance List because it is cited by DOT. This chemical is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List because it is CORROSIVE."
>
> It would be nice if the bullshit surrounding electric cars had any truth to them, but aside from all of the electricity almost entirely coming from fossil fuels and consequently with large losses in transmission and costs in infra-structure they are really only a good idea in heavy urban areas where other forms of pollution must be mitigated for human health purposes.
>

Gosh Tommy. It would be nice if you weren't such an inveterate liar.

https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=CA
"California is second only to Texas in the combined total electricity generation from all renewable resources and leads the nation in generation from solar, geothermal, and biomass energy."
"Renewable resources, including hydropower and small-scale (less than 1-megawatt), customer-sited solar photovoltaic (PV) systems, supplied nearly half of California's total in-state electricity generation despite a decline in hydroelectric generation caused by drought."
"Natural gas-fired power plants provided more than two-fifths of the state's total net generation and about half of California's utility-scale generation. Nuclear power's share of in-state generation was less than one-tenth, down from nearly one-fifth in 2011."
"California has the nation's second-largest conventional hydroelectric generating capacity after the state of Washington, and the state is consistently among the nation's top four hydropower producers."
"However, nonhydroelectric renewable generation, especially solar and wind energy, offset declines in the state's hydroelectric and nuclear generation.. In 2021, nonhydroelectric renewable resources provided 34% of the state's utility-scale net generation."

Tommy boy, HALF HALF HALF of your state's electricity came from RENEWABLE resources.

> At one time you could see the layer of smog over LA from 100 miles away. It is still smoggy but nothing like it was in the 80's

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 12:28:49 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> >>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
> >> >> >>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
> >> >> >>> that field!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> (:-)
> >> >> >> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
> >> >> >> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
> >> >> >> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
> >> >> >> miles.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
> >> >> >> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
> >> >> >> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
> >> >> >> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
> >> >> >> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
> >> >> >> charge them."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So nothing's changed.
> >> >> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
> >> >> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
> >> >> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> John B.
> >> >
> >> >I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
> >> >
> >> >I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
> >> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
> >> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
> >
> >Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
> >>
> >> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
> >> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
> >> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
> >
> >Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
> >
> You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
> and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
> shouting about diesel trucks and ships?

A person named Ralph Barone made the following comment in a post above:

"However, don’t apply the thinking that “if we can’t displace every internal
combustion vehicle with an electric one, then it makes no sense to displace
ANY of them.”"

I agree. Making a small inroad to the problem is good. It does not cure the problem, but it helps. And maybe with a small inroad, maybe we can enlarge it to a medium inroad solution. Longest journey starts with the first step. Or some saying like that.

Take medicine for example. Many medicines and treatments do not CURE the illness or disease. But they allow the person to live longer. I think that is good. No, great. Or with money. Its GREAT to have one million dollars. Its great to have one hundred thousand dollars. Its good to have ten thousand dollars. Its OK to have one thousand dollars. Just because you can't be great does not mean smaller steps or amounts are bad.

So lets cure the personal automobile pollution from gas engines first. Then maybe we can work on the diesel trucks and ships. Regarding ships, currently aircraft carriers use nuclear fuel engines to drive them. Maybe use small nuclear reactors in huge cargo ships too. Maybe lot cheaper and more environmental than diesel for cargo ships. Its almost an old technology now.

>
> And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
> to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
> engines?
>
> In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
> engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
>
> Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
> store?
> >The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
> Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
> But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
> the vehicles or the upkeep.

Taxpayers pay for the vehicles and fuel burned. I would love to have less taxes paid by me if the US Post Office can save operating costs with electric vehicles. I am sure in Thailand the people would love to have free police. No government budget for them at all. Self supporting. Or maybe they even give money back to the people from the fines they collect and zero cost of their electric police cars. Kind of like Alaska pays its citizens money every year from the sale of oil extracted in the state. Or on state owned land.

>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:52:19 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 12:28:49 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
>> >> >> >>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
>> >> >> >>> that field!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (:-)
>> >> >> >> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
>> >> >> >> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
>> >> >> >> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
>> >> >> >> miles.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
>> >> >> >> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
>> >> >> >> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
>> >> >> >> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
>> >> >> >> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
>> >> >> >> charge them."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >So nothing's changed.
>> >> >> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
>> >> >> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
>> >> >> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John B.
>> >> >
>> >> >I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
>> >> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
>> >> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
>> >
>> >Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>> >>
>> >> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
>> >> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
>> >> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
>> >
>> >Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
>> >
>> You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
>> and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
>> shouting about diesel trucks and ships?
>
>A person named Ralph Barone made the following comment in a post above:
>
>"However, don’t apply the thinking that “if we can’t displace every internal
>combustion vehicle with an electric one, then it makes no sense to displace
>ANY of them.”"
>
>I agree. Making a small inroad to the problem is good. It does not cure the problem, but it helps. And maybe with a small inroad, maybe we can enlarge it to a medium inroad solution. Longest journey starts with the first step. Or some saying like that.
>
>Take medicine for example. Many medicines and treatments do not CURE the illness or disease. But they allow the person to live longer. I think that is good. No, great. Or with money. Its GREAT to have one million dollars. Its great to have one hundred thousand dollars. Its good to have ten thousand dollars. Its OK to have one thousand dollars. Just because you can't be great does not mean smaller steps or amounts are bad.
>
>So lets cure the personal automobile pollution from gas engines first. Then maybe we can work on the diesel trucks and ships. Regarding ships, currently aircraft carriers use nuclear fuel engines to drive them. Maybe use small nuclear reactors in huge cargo ships too. Maybe lot cheaper and more environmental than diesel for cargo ships. Its almost an old technology now.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
>> to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
>> engines?
>>
>> In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
>> engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
>>
>> Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
>> store?
>> >The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
>> Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
>> But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
>> the vehicles or the upkeep.
>
>Taxpayers pay for the vehicles and fuel burned. I would love to have less taxes paid by me if the US Post Office can save operating costs with electric vehicles. I am sure in Thailand the people would love to have free police. No government budget for them at all. Self supporting. Or maybe they even give money back to the people from the fines they collect and zero cost of their electric police cars. Kind of like Alaska pays its citizens money every year from the sale of oil extracted in the state. Or on state owned land.
>
We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and part of the
way we were on the major highway to the North East of the country with
big trucks lumbering by.

Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers hauling a
second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind the cab, and I
remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired sedan and
pickup truck.

Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas fired
generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and certainly an
internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial cost and
maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for gas fired cars
rather then electric?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tommy boy, HALF HALF HALF of your state's electricity came from RENEWABLE resources.

This page provides pie charts and graphs of the CAISO power generation
distribution:
<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html>

Whatever the source, you can see problems when CAISO has to import
power from outside the area. See graph at:
<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html#section-imports-trend>
For yesterday (4/28/2022), CAISO was importing power at night from 6PM
to 8AM, and exporting power during the day from 8AM to 6PM.

Similarly, batteries are helping reduce peaks loads and level the
supply graph:
<http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html#section-batteries-trend>

Graph of the California wind and solar power that was NOT needed,
wanted, or used during the day:
<http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/ManagingOversupply.aspx#dailyCurtailment>
The most recent report (4/27/2022) is at:
<http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Wind_SolarReal-TimeDispatchCurtailmentReportApr27_2022.pdf>
Curtailment means that this is the power that CAISO members could
*NOT* use or sell. As we move into summer, there will be an
increasing surplus of available solar power.

CAISO now covers most of the left coast:
<https://www.rtoinsider.com/ext/resources/2022/02/14/Q4-Transfers-in-Western-EIM-(CAISO)-Alt-FI.jpg>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/29/2022 12:28 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
>>>>>>>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
>>>>>>>> that field!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (:-)
>>>>>>> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
>>>>>>> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
>>>>>>> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
>>>>>>> miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
>>>>>>> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
>>>>>>> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
>>>>>>> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
>>>>>>> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
>>>>>>> charge them."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So nothing's changed.
>>>>> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
>>>>> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
>>>>> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
>>> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
>>> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
>>
>> Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>>>
>>> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
>>> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
>>> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
>>
>> Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
>>
> You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
> and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
> shouting about diesel trucks and ships?
>
> And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
> to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
> engines?
>
> In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
> engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
>
> Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
> store?
>
>> The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
>
> Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
> But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
> the vehicles or the upkeep.
>

As regards ocean shipping, we're early into a worldwide
price spiral as regular bunker fuel is being phased out:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ocean+ships+bunker+fuel+changeover&t=h_&ia=web

Could not come at a worse time and exorbitant freight
charges reflect that, among other grave policy errors.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 5:26:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 12:28 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
> >>>>>>>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
> >>>>>>>> that field!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (:-)
> >>>>>>> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
> >>>>>>> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
> >>>>>>> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
> >>>>>>> miles.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
> >>>>>>> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
> >>>>>>> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
> >>>>>>> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
> >>>>>>> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
> >>>>>>> charge them."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So nothing's changed.
> >>>>> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
> >>>>> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
> >>>>> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>>
> >>>> I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
> >>> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
> >>> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
> >>
> >> Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
> >>>
> >>> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
> >>> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
> >>> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
> >>
> >> Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
> >>
> > You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
> > and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
> > shouting about diesel trucks and ships?
> >
> > And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
> > to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
> > engines?
> >
> > In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
> > engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
> >
> > Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
> > store?
> >
> >> The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
> >
> > Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
> > But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
> > the vehicles or the upkeep.
> >
> As regards ocean shipping, we're early into a worldwide
> price spiral as regular bunker fuel is being phased out:
>
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ocean+ships+bunker+fuel+changeover&t=h_&ia=web
>
> Could not come at a worse time and exorbitant freight
> charges reflect that, among other grave policy errors.

Seriously, these policies of our present mentally ill government look completely planned by a foreign power, They have already worked in Europe except possibly in Germany where people tend to be a bit more level headed, but considering the flooding of this country with agents provocateurs' has no precedent in modern history. On top of that George Soros is attempting to destroy the American dollar as he did the Greek economy.

On 4/29/2022 1:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 5:26:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 12:28 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
>>>>>>>>>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
>>>>>>>>>> that field!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (:-)
>>>>>>>>> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
>>>>>>>>> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
>>>>>>>>> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
>>>>>>>>> miles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
>>>>>>>>> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
>>>>>>>>> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
>>>>>>>>> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
>>>>>>>>> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
>>>>>>>>> charge them."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So nothing's changed.
>>>>>>> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
>>>>>>> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
>>>>>>> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
>>>>> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
>>>>> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
>>>>
>>>> Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
>>>>> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
>>>>> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
>>>>
>>>> Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
>>>>
>>> You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
>>> and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
>>> shouting about diesel trucks and ships?
>>>
>>> And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
>>> to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
>>> engines?
>>>
>>> In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
>>> engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
>>>
>>> Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
>>> store?
>>>
>>>> The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
>>>
>>> Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
>>> But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
>>> the vehicles or the upkeep.
>>>
>> As regards ocean shipping, we're early into a worldwide
>> price spiral as regular bunker fuel is being phased out:
>>
>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ocean+ships+bunker+fuel+changeover&t=h_&ia=web
>>
>> Could not come at a worse time and exorbitant freight
>> charges reflect that, among other grave policy errors.
>
> Seriously, these policies of our present mentally ill government look completely planned by a foreign power, They have already worked in Europe except possibly in Germany where people tend to be a bit more level headed, but considering the flooding of this country with agents provocateurs' has no precedent in modern history. On top of that George Soros is attempting to destroy the American dollar as he did the Greek economy.
>

I'm no fan of the present administration nor The Planners
infesting our civil service nor Congress in general. That
said, the bunker fuel fiasco is an international, worldwide,
inescapable problem from International Maritime
Organization, a subsidiary of the UN racket.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/28/2022 6:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
>>> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
>>> problem.
>>
>> Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
>> reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
>>
> Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
> such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
> then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
>
> Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
> even out wind/solar etc.

I'm curious about the efficiency of such storage schemes. I don't doubt
the net benefit of using off-peak loads for storage. But I'm curious
about the percentage of the stored energy that's recoverable.

Way, way back when GM's first experimental electric car was made public
(the terribly named "Impact"), I saw one on display at Disney World. I
asked the eager young engineer manning the booth about that question of
charge-discharge efficiency. He stopped short and said "Wow. I don't
know the answer. Nobody's ever asked that before."

(About the name: Jay Leno said "That's a terrible name! Why did they
name it the 'Impact'?? Was 'Flaming Ball of Death' taken??")

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:03:43 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/28/2022 12:51 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:38:51 AM UTC-4, Ralph Barone wrote:
> >> . A mine in my area is working to convert their huge dump trucks to
> >> electric so that they can haul loads out of the mine with less emissions.
> >> As a bonus, when the empty trucks are descending into the mine, they can
> >> apply regenerative braking and actually produce electricity and save money.
> >>
> >
> > Although I'm all for reduced emissions, it probably has more to do with the fact that a full electric truck (even an 'earth mover') has significantly less maintenance than a diesel/gas vehicle - no transmission, no regular maintenance for fluids or filters.
> >
> > Although many electric vehicles do have transmissions, example abound. The most obvious are the diesel-electric locomotives. They are driven by independent electric motors on each wheel with no transmission. The power is generated by the diesel engine which _only_ generates electric power. If you've ever been close to one when they accelerate, you'll notice maybe a slight increase in RPM of the diesel, but mostly it just gets louder as the load increases. One advantage is that it's possible for one or two of the motors to fail and still allow the locomotive to move. Since the diesel engine is hyper tuned to run within an extremely tight RPM range, it's also extremely fuel efficient. This method has been in use for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#/media/File:DieselElectricLocomotiveSchematic.svg
> >
> > A few weeks ago my wide and I were driving on the highway and saw a pick-up that had an exceptionally distinctive look. It was a Rivian. I looked it up - MSRP of $80K, four independent electric motors (one for each wheel, no transmission), 0-60 in 3.3 seconds (yes, 3.3 seconds). It has has a "tank turn" feature which will contra-rotate the left and right wheels to allow for exceptionally tight turns (I dont know how it works, but that's what the card a driver article said https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/r1t).
> >
> > It wouldn't surprise me that a mining company would be interested in something like that on a larger scale, or even on the 'earth mover' vehicles make a diesel electric type of hybrid like the locomotives.
> >
> 'Reduced maintenance' may not mean 'reduced maintenance
> expense'.

Good point, I'm wondering if there is enough economy-of-scale to make it worthwhile.

>
> I assume reduced
> brake maintenance but not zero expense for that either.

I don't have experience in the area but I'm guessing brake maintenance on a regenerative system is likely to be quite a bit higher.

> Note 'current pricing' assumes some strategically large
> amount of lithium, cobalt, neodymium etc will fall to earth.
> Soon. Otherwise these materials, a dwindling resource, show
> a disturbing price trendline:
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1171975/global-monthly-price-of-cobalt/
>
> https://capital.com/lithium-price-forecast
>
And as an example check the price and supply of platinum since catalytic converters were mandated.

On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and part of the
> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the country with
> big trucks lumbering by.
>
> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers hauling a
> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind the cab, and I
> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired sedan and
> pickup truck.
>
> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas fired
> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and certainly an
> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial cost and
> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for gas fired cars
> rather then electric?

I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the same problem as
for hydrogen powered cars.

To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop a scheme to
make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of places around the
country. That's not impossible, but it would be an immense undertaking.

Electricity is already available all around the country. Essentially
everyone has it at home. And putting out charging stations for public
use is far easier than putting out LNG stations.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2022 4:53 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:03:43 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/28/2022 12:51 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:38:51 AM UTC-4, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>> . A mine in my area is working to convert their huge dump trucks to
>>>> electric so that they can haul loads out of the mine with less emissions.
>>>> As a bonus, when the empty trucks are descending into the mine, they can
>>>> apply regenerative braking and actually produce electricity and save money.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Although I'm all for reduced emissions, it probably has more to do with the fact that a full electric truck (even an 'earth mover') has significantly less maintenance than a diesel/gas vehicle - no transmission, no regular maintenance for fluids or filters.
>>>
>>> Although many electric vehicles do have transmissions, example abound. The most obvious are the diesel-electric locomotives. They are driven by independent electric motors on each wheel with no transmission. The power is generated by the diesel engine which _only_ generates electric power. If you've ever been close to one when they accelerate, you'll notice maybe a slight increase in RPM of the diesel, but mostly it just gets louder as the load increases. One advantage is that it's possible for one or two of the motors to fail and still allow the locomotive to move. Since the diesel engine is hyper tuned to run within an extremely tight RPM range, it's also extremely fuel efficient. This method has been in use for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_locomotive#/media/File:DieselElectricLocomotiveSchematic.svg
>>>
>>> A few weeks ago my wide and I were driving on the highway and saw a pick-up that had an exceptionally distinctive look. It was a Rivian. I looked it up - MSRP of $80K, four independent electric motors (one for each wheel, no transmission), 0-60 in 3.3 seconds (yes, 3.3 seconds). It has has a "tank turn" feature which will contra-rotate the left and right wheels to allow for exceptionally tight turns (I dont know how it works, but that's what the card a driver article said https://www.caranddriver.com/rivian/r1t).
>>>
>>> It wouldn't surprise me that a mining company would be interested in something like that on a larger scale, or even on the 'earth mover' vehicles make a diesel electric type of hybrid like the locomotives.
>>>
>> 'Reduced maintenance' may not mean 'reduced maintenance
>> expense'.
>
> Good point, I'm wondering if there is enough economy-of-scale to make it worthwhile.
>
>>
>> I assume reduced
>> brake maintenance but not zero expense for that either.
>
> I don't have experience in the area but I'm guessing brake maintenance on a regenerative system is likely to be quite a bit higher.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/hidden-benefit-toyota-hybrids-prius-go-100k-needing-brakes

This confirms what friends have told me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2022 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and
>> part of the
>> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the
>> country with
>> big trucks lumbering by.
>>
>> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers
>> hauling a
>> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind
>> the cab, and I
>> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired
>> sedan and
>> pickup truck.
>>
>> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas
>> fired
>> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and
>> certainly an
>> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial
>> cost and
>> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for
>> gas fired cars
>> rather then electric?
>
> I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the
> same problem as for hydrogen powered cars.
>
> To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop
> a scheme to make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of
> places around the country. That's not impossible, but it
> would be an immense undertaking.
>
> Electricity is already available all around the country.
> Essentially everyone has it at home. And putting out
> charging stations for public use is far easier than putting
> out LNG stations.
>

I don't know.
In rural USA, LP distribution is a well developed industry
with suppliers all over the place and trucks refilling tanks
daily, just as local gasoline/diesel fuel distributors visit
gasoline stations regularly.

Here, our petroleum products come down from Canada whereas
in Chicago they run up from Oklahoma and Louisiana. Each
system has refineries (Superior WI and Whiting IN),
subsidiary gasoline/diesel/heating oil pipelines to
distribution centers but the last mile is by tanker truck.

I would imagine LNG, as LP, will extend similarly, just a
scaled up version of the oil system, i.e., not a pipeline to
every corner retail outlet. I could be wrong; there may be
factors of which I am unaware.

Yes, electricity is available nearly everywhere, for some
values of 'electricity'. People with machine tools or other
large electric motor equipment are painfully aware that
there are two 220V formats, not available everywhere, and
3-phase is also nowhere near universal. Utilities charge
astronomical fees to extend higher-rated lines by request,
in the case of my favorite auto engine builder $70,000 to
bring 3-phase less than 1000 feet. Prepaid only. He bought a
different motor and controller for his Bridgeport. I changed
the motor and controller for my big compressor system when
we moved for the same reason. For 'rapid charge' auto
systems, similar location restrictions are likely I would
assume.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:13:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and part of the
>> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the country with
>> big trucks lumbering by.
>>
>> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers hauling a
>> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind the cab, and I
>> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired sedan and
>> pickup truck.
>>
>> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas fired
>> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and certainly an
>> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial cost and
>> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for gas fired cars
>> rather then electric?
>
>I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the same problem as
>for hydrogen powered cars.
>
>To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop a scheme to
>make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of places around the
>country. That's not impossible, but it would be an immense undertaking.
>
>Electricity is already available all around the country. Essentially
>everyone has it at home. And putting out charging stations for public
>use is far easier than putting out LNG stations.

I don't know about LNG, as it seems to be restricted to heavy trucks,
but we have LPG "gas stations" now. Not as frequently as gasoline "gas
stations" but frequent enough that my wife and her sister quite
frequently use the sister's LPG fueled sedan for their Bangkok forays.

My wife tells me that fuel cost is about 400 baht per 400 km trip with
LPG and about 1,000 baht with her gasoline fueled car.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 4:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and
> >> part of the
> >> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the
> >> country with
> >> big trucks lumbering by.
> >>
> >> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers
> >> hauling a
> >> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind
> >> the cab, and I
> >> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired
> >> sedan and
> >> pickup truck.
> >>
> >> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas
> >> fired
> >> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and
> >> certainly an
> >> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial
> >> cost and
> >> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for
> >> gas fired cars
> >> rather then electric?
> >
> > I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the
> > same problem as for hydrogen powered cars.
> >
> > To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop
> > a scheme to make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of
> > places around the country. That's not impossible, but it
> > would be an immense undertaking.
> >
> > Electricity is already available all around the country.
> > Essentially everyone has it at home. And putting out
> > charging stations for public use is far easier than putting
> > out LNG stations.
> >
> I don't know.
> In rural USA, LP distribution is a well developed industry
> with suppliers all over the place and trucks refilling tanks
> daily, just as local gasoline/diesel fuel distributors visit
> gasoline stations regularly.

Yes. My mother has two places in the country that have big tanks for the LP. About 8 feet long and 4 foot diameter. Feed the furnace and stove. Hot water heaters are electric. Refill truck comes once a year. I'd guess 5 percent or less of the USA population gets its fuel this way. 95%+ get natural gas from the utility. Which is what Liquid Propane is a substitute for. Can you scale up the LP system in such a way as to provide Liquid Natural Gas? Maybe. Maybe not.

But, like with electricity, natural gas is almost universal around the USA. At least in all cities and towns and villages. So maybe like with electric car chargers people are installing in their garages for their electric cars (single phase 220 volt), we could install mini LNG producers in every house. I don't know what is involved with creating LNG from the gas. But maybe it can be done at home. All you would need to do is run the existing natural gas line into the house right now to the garage and hook it up to the portable LNG maker. And set up a few LNG dispensers in the country for people who do not have natural gas in their house. Or make them have a LNG and LP tank at home and get deliveries.

But LNG has a chicken and egg problem. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg. With lots (millions) of LNG cars instantaneously produced and driven, then every gas station in the USA would immediately run out and hire a company to install a huge 10,000 gallon tank in the ground and have a pump installed. Overnight.

LNG is maybe similar to the way gasoline cars first started. I suspect the first cars on the roads carried a spare can or two of gas because there was no place to refill if they went for a drive. And it ended up using more fuel than planned. But eventually lots of gas retailers popped up. And cars to warrant having lots of sellers. Do we want to repeat that history?

>
> Here, our petroleum products come down from Canada whereas
> in Chicago they run up from Oklahoma and Louisiana. Each
> system has refineries (Superior WI and Whiting IN),
> subsidiary gasoline/diesel/heating oil pipelines to
> distribution centers but the last mile is by tanker truck.
>
> I would imagine LNG, as LP, will extend similarly, just a
> scaled up version of the oil system, i.e., not a pipeline to
> every corner retail outlet. I could be wrong; there may be
> factors of which I am unaware.
>
> Yes, electricity is available nearly everywhere, for some
> values of 'electricity'. People with machine tools or other
> large electric motor equipment are painfully aware that
> there are two 220V formats, not available everywhere, and
> 3-phase is also nowhere near universal. Utilities charge
> astronomical fees to extend higher-rated lines by request,
> in the case of my favorite auto engine builder $70,000 to
> bring 3-phase less than 1000 feet. Prepaid only. He bought a
> different motor and controller for his Bridgeport. I changed
> the motor and controller for my big compressor system when
> we moved for the same reason. For 'rapid charge' auto
> systems, similar location restrictions are likely I would
> assume.

In the woodworking world people get around the three phase electricity problem for bigger motors or variable speed motors by installing a phase converter. A few thousand dollars. Or use a VFD Variable Frequency Drive if you need variable speed or just need to create three phase power for one machine. Much cheaper than having a direct line from the utility company. But if you are a big user, factory, then you have to pay the utility because there are limits to the amount of power a phase converter can produce. And cheaper than having a VFD on every three phase motor.

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 07:26:01 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/29/2022 12:28 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:31:51 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:53:19 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:27:25 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 21:10:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:05:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/2022 10:26 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The lies about electric vehicles simply have hidden the fact that they actually contribute more CO2 to the atmosphere than modern internal combustion machines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah, good! Yet another topic on which Tom Kunich knows much more than,
>>>>>>>>> and disagrees with, every competent scientist and engineer working in
>>>>>>>>> that field!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (:-)
>>>>>>>> Years and years ago I read an article about electric cars. It
>>>>>>>> specified the smallest electric car that would be acceptable as
>>>>>>>> something about the size of a Volkswagen Bug with a range of about 60
>>>>>>>> miles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The article went on to discuss battery technology, as known then, amps
>>>>>>>> and volts, and a number of other features, but the last sentence in
>>>>>>>> the article stated that: "And at 5 o'clock when everyone in Los
>>>>>>>> Angeles comes home from work and plugs their car into the charger
>>>>>>>> there isn't sufficient electricity being generated in California to
>>>>>>>> charge them."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So nothing's changed.
>>>>>> I don't know. Has it? SMA tells us that the best time to charge is 12
>>>>>> a.m. to 7 a.m. I'm a long time gone from AM/PM but isn't that from
>>>>>> about midnight till early morning? I'm usually asleep at that time.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt the electric car plugged into the electric car charger cares too much whether you are sleeping or not. Kind of like my refrigerator. It turns itself on or off all day long. I assume it has an internal thermometer to tell it whether to run or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm guessing, just guessing, that electric car chargers installed in houses have some clock on them so you can program when the charger runs and draws power. So you just plug it in when you pull into the garage and it charges itself based on the program and clock. No need for you to go into the garage at midnight to plug it in.
>>>> Good Lord! You mean I've got to buy one of them there expensive
>>>> electric cars AND then I've got to buy a battery charger too :-(
>>>
>>> Imagine that. As everyone knows, with gasoline cars, the perpetual lifetime gas supply to run the car comes with the purchase of the car. Or at least the car company gives you a lifetime free credit card to use at every gas station in the world. Free gas for the life of the car. Or do they give you the free gas and then you have to construct a storage barrel to hold the free gas. Kind of like you having to put in a charging outlet in your garage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But a slightly different slant on essentially the same subject.
>>>>
>>>> What about those heavy trucks laboring up hills with black smoke
>>>> pouring out of the stacks moving something like 12 billion tons of
>>>> cargo a year? Or the multitude of ships moving cargo across oceans?
>>>
>>> Efficiency. The trucks/semis and cargo ships move 10-20-30 tons of freight one or ten miles for every gallon of fuel used. Whereas cars move a 200 pound person a few miles for every gallon of fuel.
>>>
>> You missed the point. Sure autos emit nasty vapors but so do trucks
>> and ships. Will the day come when there will be much hand waving and
>> shouting about diesel trucks and ships?
>>
>> And another slant. What would be the effect of limiting U.S. families
>> to only one auto... and license only, oh say, 1,000 cc. or smaller
>> engines?
>>
>> In fact that might be the answer to speeding on U.S. highways. Tiny
>> engines that won't drive the car faster then 50 mph (:-)
>>
>> Does one really need a Rolls Royce to drive to the local grocery
>> store?
>>
>>> The US Post Office is trying to convert its fleet of gas burning trucks over to electric. I would not be surprised if the US Post Office burns more fuel per day than any other entity on earth. And Tesla or some other electric car company has tested or prototyped an electric truck. Self driving too.
>>
>> Sure and the police here are changing to electric powered vehicles.
>> But of course neither the Thai Police or the U.S. Post Office pay for
>> the vehicles or the upkeep.
>>
>
>As regards ocean shipping, we're early into a worldwide
>price spiral as regular bunker fuel is being phased out:
>
>https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ocean+ships+bunker+fuel+changeover&t=h_&ia=web
>
>Could not come at a worse time and exorbitant freight
>charges reflect that, among other grave policy errors.

The bunker fuel thing has been going on for years. I remember, years
ago, when tugs working in Singapore waters were forced to switch to a
cleaner burning diesel oil. Tug charters immediately shot up in cost.
I, being a miserable SOB that actually investigates project costs
discovered that the increase in tug charter costs far outweighed the
additional cost of the cleaner fuel and managed a significant decrease
in tug rental costs for our company (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:49:54 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>Yes, electricity is available nearly everywhere, for some
>values of 'electricity'. People with machine tools or other
>large electric motor equipment are painfully aware that
>there are two 220V formats, not available everywhere, and
>3-phase is also nowhere near universal. Utilities charge
>astronomical fees to extend higher-rated lines by request,
>in the case of my favorite auto engine builder $70,000 to
>bring 3-phase less than 1000 feet. Prepaid only. He bought a
>different motor and controller for his Bridgeport.

A more common and cheaper method of powering a 3 phase Bridgeport
vertical mill spindle motor is to add a VFD (variable frequency
drive). A VFD can convert household single phase 220VAC to 3 phase at
various voltage. It also adds a variable speed control, which is
lacking in power line connected 3 phase motors.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bridgeport+vertical+mill+VFD+conversion&ia=web>
I think the VFD we used on a Shizuoka vertical mill was purchased on
eBay or Amazon:
<https://www.amazon.com/Variable-Frequency-Controller-Converter-HUANYANG/dp/B077KSN4C5/139-2799476-8449631>
It's probably the correct maker and model, but I'm not sure about the
power/HP level. All the various 3 phase motors in the shop were
running on a single VFD, so the power handling specification could
have been much less. I think the typical Bridgeport vertical mill has
a 2.2KW spindle motor. Check the spindle motor nameplate to be sure.
Note that this VFD is only for a 220V 3 phase motor. The x, y, and z
axis stepper or servo motors run on single phase power. Servo motors
have their own braking system.

>I changed
>the motor and controller for my big compressor system when
>we moved for the same reason. For 'rapid charge' auto
>systems, similar location restrictions are likely I would
>assume.

As long as the maximum power draw is within the limits imposed by the
local utility and the building electrical system, a VFD solves most
(not all) of the electrical frequency, voltage, and phase
compatibility issues. Only the Delta vs Star (or Y) wiring difference
are still a problem where the VDF has to be ordered for either
configuration. There are VFD's that will literally convert anything
to anything else, but I don't have any experience with these.

There also can be a problem with the size of the resistive load for
motor braking. A CNC mill, that is running a program with many tool
changes and rapid spindle stops, is going to have quite a bit of
inertial energy dissipated by the motor braking resistor during these
stops. Overheating made me change the resistor value and power rating
on one VFD. A major reason I specified this particular model was the
large rear mounted heat sink and fan which was needed to cool the
braking resistor.

Incidentally, one VFD replaced an older motor-generator voltage and
2->3 phase converter. Besides greatly improved efficiency, the VFD
was sufficiently quiet that one could converse nearby without
shouting.

For a better explanation or some details, I suggest:
<https://www.cnczone.com>
<https://www.practicalmachinist.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:44:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/28/2022 6:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
>>>> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
>>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
>>> reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
>>>
>> Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
>> such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
>> then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
>>
>> Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
>> even out wind/solar etc.

>I'm curious about the efficiency of such storage schemes. I don't doubt
>the net benefit of using off-peak loads for storage. But I'm curious
>about the percentage of the stored energy that's recoverable.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity>
"The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%-80%, with
some sources claiming up to 87%."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Economic_efficiency>
"Taking into account evaporation losses from the exposed water surface
and conversion losses, energy recovery of 70-80% or more can be
achieved."

>Way, way back when GM's first experimental electric car was made public
>(the terribly named "Impact"), I saw one on display at Disney World. I
>asked the eager young engineer manning the booth about that question of
>charge-discharge efficiency. He stopped short and said "Wow. I don't
>know the answer. Nobody's ever asked that before."
>
>(About the name: Jay Leno said "That's a terrible name! Why did they
>name it the 'Impact'?? Was 'Flaming Ball of Death' taken??")

"The 30 most ridiculous car names ever"
<https://www.driving.co.uk/news/diversions/the-worlds-worst-car-names/>

"25 Worst, Weirdest, and Most Wonderful Car Names of All Time"
<https://www.drivingline.com/articles/25-worst-weirdest-and-most-wonderful-car-names-of-all-time/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:06:44 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 4:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and
>> >> part of the
>> >> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the
>> >> country with
>> >> big trucks lumbering by.
>> >>
>> >> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers
>> >> hauling a
>> >> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind
>> >> the cab, and I
>> >> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired
>> >> sedan and
>> >> pickup truck.
>> >>
>> >> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas
>> >> fired
>> >> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and
>> >> certainly an
>> >> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial
>> >> cost and
>> >> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for
>> >> gas fired cars
>> >> rather then electric?
>> >
>> > I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the
>> > same problem as for hydrogen powered cars.
>> >
>> > To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop
>> > a scheme to make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of
>> > places around the country. That's not impossible, but it
>> > would be an immense undertaking.
>> >
>> > Electricity is already available all around the country.
>> > Essentially everyone has it at home. And putting out
>> > charging stations for public use is far easier than putting
>> > out LNG stations.
>> >
>> I don't know.
>> In rural USA, LP distribution is a well developed industry
>> with suppliers all over the place and trucks refilling tanks
>> daily, just as local gasoline/diesel fuel distributors visit
>> gasoline stations regularly.
>
>Yes. My mother has two places in the country that have big tanks for the LP. About 8 feet long and 4 foot diameter. Feed the furnace and stove. Hot water heaters are electric. Refill truck comes once a year. I'd guess 5 percent or less of the USA population gets its fuel this way. 95%+ get natural gas from the utility. Which is what Liquid Propane is a substitute for. Can you scale up the LP system in such a way as to provide Liquid Natural Gas? Maybe. Maybe not.
>
>But, like with electricity, natural gas is almost universal around the USA. At least in all cities and towns and villages. So maybe like with electric car chargers people are installing in their garages for their electric cars (single phase 220 volt), we could install mini LNG producers in every house. I don't know what is involved with creating LNG from the gas. But maybe it can be done at home. All you would need to do is run the existing natural gas line into the house right now to the garage and hook it up to the portable LNG maker. And set up a few LNG dispensers in the country for people who do not have natural gas in their house. Or make them have a LNG and LP tank at home and get deliveries.
>
>But LNG has a chicken and egg problem. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg. With lots (millions) of LNG cars instantaneously produced and driven, then every gas station in the USA would immediately run out and hire a company to install a huge 10,000 gallon tank in the ground and have a pump installed. Overnight.
>
>LNG is maybe similar to the way gasoline cars first started. I suspect the first cars on the roads carried a spare can or two of gas because there was no place to refill if they went for a drive. And it ended up using more fuel than planned. But eventually lots of gas retailers popped up. And cars to warrant having lots of sellers. Do we want to repeat that history?
>
>
>>
>> Here, our petroleum products come down from Canada whereas
>> in Chicago they run up from Oklahoma and Louisiana. Each
>> system has refineries (Superior WI and Whiting IN),
>> subsidiary gasoline/diesel/heating oil pipelines to
>> distribution centers but the last mile is by tanker truck.
>>
>> I would imagine LNG, as LP, will extend similarly, just a
>> scaled up version of the oil system, i.e., not a pipeline to
>> every corner retail outlet. I could be wrong; there may be
>> factors of which I am unaware.
>>

Perhaps a bit picky but the two products LPG and LNG are a bit
different. LPG, in it's gas form has a density of about 1.882 kg/M3
while LNG, in it's gaseous form has a density of 0.7 - 0.9kg/M3. In
addition LPG is a liquid at normal temperatures, in the tank, while
LNG is a liquid at about -145 °C to -163 °C
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/29/2022 9:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:44:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/28/2022 6:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
>>>>> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
>>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
>>>> reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
>>>>
>>> Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
>>> such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
>>> then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
>>>
>>> Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
>>> even out wind/solar etc.
>
>> I'm curious about the efficiency of such storage schemes. I don't doubt
>> the net benefit of using off-peak loads for storage. But I'm curious
>> about the percentage of the stored energy that's recoverable.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity>
> "The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%-80%, with
> some sources claiming up to 87%."
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Economic_efficiency>
> "Taking into account evaporation losses from the exposed water surface
> and conversion losses, energy recovery of 70-80% or more can be
> achieved."

That's better than I would have guessed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:36:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/29/2022 9:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:44:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/28/2022 6:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
>>>>>> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
>>>>> reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
>>>>>
>>>> Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
>>>> such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
>>>> then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
>>>>
>>>> Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
>>>> even out wind/solar etc.
>>
>>> I'm curious about the efficiency of such storage schemes. I don't doubt
>>> the net benefit of using off-peak loads for storage. But I'm curious
>>> about the percentage of the stored energy that's recoverable.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity>
>> "The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%-80%, with
>> some sources claiming up to 87%."
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Economic_efficiency>
>> "Taking into account evaporation losses from the exposed water surface
>> and conversion losses, energy recovery of 70-80% or more can be
>> achieved."

>That's better than I would have guessed.

Guessing the overall efficiency is fairly simple. I lifted some
typical small system efficiencies from:
<https://www.renewablesfirst.co.uk/hydropower/hydropower-learning-centre/how-much-power-could-i-generate-from-a-hydro-turbine/>
85% turbine efficiency
95% drive efficiency
93% motor/generator efficiency
Therefore, the overall efficiency would be:
0.85 x 0.95 x 0.93 = 0.75 = 75%
Add in water evaporation losses, fluid flow friction heating, losses
from injested debris, on site electrical transmission losses, and
power sucked from the system to run the valves, computers, lighting,
etc, I would guess about 95% or:
0.75 * 0.95 = 0.71 = 71%
As I understand it, large systems are more efficient than the small
systems, so these results are likely to be on the low side.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 9:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:44:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/28/2022 6:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/28/2022 12:30 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might want to put a caveat next to “and hydro”. If your reservoir is
>>>>>> big enough, storing hydroelectricity for months and even years is no
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's true, and sometimes they pump water back up into the
>>>>> reservoir at night so they can use it again the next day.
>>>>>
>>>> Is a one in a mountain in wales, it’s generally used for peak loads, ie
>>>> such as when every one is likely to have a cup of tea at half time, and
>>>> then it pumps the water back up at night when it’s cheap etc.
>>>>
>>>> Though I believe some big battery farms are being built ie to store and
>>>> even out wind/solar etc.
>>
>>> I'm curious about the efficiency of such storage schemes. I don't doubt
>>> the net benefit of using off-peak loads for storage. But I'm curious
>>> about the percentage of the stored energy that's recoverable.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity>
>> "The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%-80%, with
>> some sources claiming up to 87%."
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Economic_efficiency>
>> "Taking into account evaporation losses from the exposed water surface
>> and conversion losses, energy recovery of 70-80% or more can be
>> achieved."
>
> That's better than I would have guessed.
>
>

And it blows the shit out of round trip electricity -> hydrogen ->
electricity conversion rates.

On 4/29/2022 6:06 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 4:49:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 3:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We just came back from the weekly shopping expedition and
>>>> part of the
>>>> way we were on the major highway to the North East of the
>>>> country with
>>>> big trucks lumbering by.
>>>>
>>>> Quit a number of these 18 wheelers, or even 18 wheelers
>>>> hauling a
>>>> second trailer were using LNG as fuel, big tanks behind
>>>> the cab, and I
>>>> remembered that my wife's younger sister has a LPG fired
>>>> sedan and
>>>> pickup truck.
>>>>
>>>> Given that one of the excuses for electricity is that gas
>>>> fired
>>>> generator stations emit very little contaminate gas, and
>>>> certainly an
>>>> internal combustion vehicle is cheaper both in initial
>>>> cost and
>>>> maintenance, then electric, so why not a big hurrah for
>>>> gas fired cars
>>>> rather then electric?
>>>
>>> I think the problem is distribution infrastructure - the
>>> same problem as for hydrogen powered cars.
>>>
>>> To fuel very many vehicles using LNG, you'll have to develop
>>> a scheme to make LNG available in hundreds of thousands of
>>> places around the country. That's not impossible, but it
>>> would be an immense undertaking.
>>>
>>> Electricity is already available all around the country.
>>> Essentially everyone has it at home. And putting out
>>> charging stations for public use is far easier than putting
>>> out LNG stations.
>>>
>> I don't know.
>> In rural USA, LP distribution is a well developed industry
>> with suppliers all over the place and trucks refilling tanks
>> daily, just as local gasoline/diesel fuel distributors visit
>> gasoline stations regularly.
>
> Yes. My mother has two places in the country that have big tanks for the LP. About 8 feet long and 4 foot diameter. Feed the furnace and stove. Hot water heaters are electric. Refill truck comes once a year. I'd guess 5 percent or less of the USA population gets its fuel this way. 95%+ get natural gas from the utility. Which is what Liquid Propane is a substitute for. Can you scale up the LP system in such a way as to provide Liquid Natural Gas? Maybe. Maybe not.
>
> But, like with electricity, natural gas is almost universal around the USA. At least in all cities and towns and villages. So maybe like with electric car chargers people are installing in their garages for their electric cars (single phase 220 volt), we could install mini LNG producers in every house. I don't know what is involved with creating LNG from the gas. But maybe it can be done at home. All you would need to do is run the existing natural gas line into the house right now to the garage and hook it up to the portable LNG maker. And set up a few LNG dispensers in the country for people who do not have natural gas in their house. Or make them have a LNG and LP tank at home and get deliveries.
>
> But LNG has a chicken and egg problem. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg. With lots (millions) of LNG cars instantaneously produced and driven, then every gas station in the USA would immediately run out and hire a company to install a huge 10,000 gallon tank in the ground and have a pump installed. Overnight.
>
> LNG is maybe similar to the way gasoline cars first started. I suspect the first cars on the roads carried a spare can or two of gas because there was no place to refill if they went for a drive. And it ended up using more fuel than planned. But eventually lots of gas retailers popped up. And cars to warrant having lots of sellers. Do we want to repeat that history?
>
>
>>
>> Here, our petroleum products come down from Canada whereas
>> in Chicago they run up from Oklahoma and Louisiana. Each
>> system has refineries (Superior WI and Whiting IN),
>> subsidiary gasoline/diesel/heating oil pipelines to
>> distribution centers but the last mile is by tanker truck.
>>
>> I would imagine LNG, as LP, will extend similarly, just a
>> scaled up version of the oil system, i.e., not a pipeline to
>> every corner retail outlet. I could be wrong; there may be
>> factors of which I am unaware.
>>
>> Yes, electricity is available nearly everywhere, for some
>> values of 'electricity'. People with machine tools or other
>> large electric motor equipment are painfully aware that
>> there are two 220V formats, not available everywhere, and
>> 3-phase is also nowhere near universal. Utilities charge
>> astronomical fees to extend higher-rated lines by request,
>> in the case of my favorite auto engine builder $70,000 to
>> bring 3-phase less than 1000 feet. Prepaid only. He bought a
>> different motor and controller for his Bridgeport. I changed
>> the motor and controller for my big compressor system when
>> we moved for the same reason. For 'rapid charge' auto
>> systems, similar location restrictions are likely I would
>> assume.
>
> In the woodworking world people get around the three phase electricity problem for bigger motors or variable speed motors by installing a phase converter. A few thousand dollars. Or use a VFD Variable Frequency Drive if you need variable speed or just need to create three phase power for one machine. Much cheaper than having a direct line from the utility company. But if you are a big user, factory, then you have to pay the utility because there are limits to the amount of power a phase converter can produce. And cheaper than having a VFD on every three phase motor.
>

My point regarding 3-phase is that all our current energy
systems have foibles and anomalies. LP gas is piped to
distribution centers and compressed there for truck
delivery. No reason LPG could not parallel that format,
which is very much like the gasoline distribution system.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971