Andrew, I have been trying to use a ball-end Allen wrench to take the tightener loose. This worked perfectly to remove the Centaur levers and I can more or less see the connector under the rubber cover and it appears to be a normal 6 mm but the ball end doesn't fit. Is this because the fitting is too shallow in an attempt to save weight and I will have to find a straight end Allen wrench or is this fitting some weird size like a 5.5 mm?

On 5/20/2022 12:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Andrew, I have been trying to use a ball-end Allen wrench to take the tightener loose. This worked perfectly to remove the Centaur levers and I can more or less see the connector under the rubber cover and it appears to be a normal 6 mm but the ball end doesn't fit. Is this because the fitting is too shallow in an attempt to save weight and I will have to find a straight end Allen wrench or is this fitting some weird size like a 5.5 mm?
>

We use these:
https://www.snapon.co.za/images/thumbs/0008614_awsg09-t-handle-hex-964_550.jpeg

Campagnolo lever band nuts are a 5mm allen (steel, old) or a
#T-25 Torx (aluminum, current.

We use these for the current fastener:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/er11b.jpg

Bondhus ball-end tools are quite handy for running up
fasteners in odd positions such as bottle cage screws. We
use them often here, great product. But we tighten bottle
cage screws with an L-shaped allen as the ball end chews up
six-sided broaches under any reasonable torque. Get some
tool with full engagement in the fastener.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 12:10 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, I have been trying to use a ball-end Allen wrench to take the tightener loose. This worked perfectly to remove the Centaur levers and I can more or less see the connector under the rubber cover and it appears to be a normal 6 mm but the ball end doesn't fit. Is this because the fitting is too shallow in an attempt to save weight and I will have to find a straight end Allen wrench or is this fitting some weird size like a 5.5 mm?
> >
> We use these:
> https://www.snapon.co.za/images/thumbs/0008614_awsg09-t-handle-hex-964_550.jpeg
>
> Campagnolo lever band nuts are a 5mm allen (steel, old) or a
> #T-25 Torx (aluminum, current.
>
> We use these for the current fastener:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/er11b.jpg
>
> Bondhus ball-end tools are quite handy for running up
> fasteners in odd positions such as bottle cage screws. We
> use them often here, great product. But we tighten bottle
> cage screws with an L-shaped allen as the ball end chews up
> six-sided broaches under any reasonable torque. Get some
> tool with full engagement in the fastener.

Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.. I guess it was another year before they got rid of that damned Torx which cuts the rubber cover so easily. I have now mounted the levers and leveled them with a liquid level. I'm sitting here with all sorts of freehubs so if there's any question about the shifting of the 11 speeds Campy to Shimano, I will just put like upon like. I should get the medium arm installed on the Chorus rear derailleur by Wednesday. I'll pick it up, clean and rewax the chain and slip in the new 4 arm crank to replace the Chorus that's on there. Install the brake cables and I'm set to go. The C50 then becomes my primary "good" riding bikes. For the local crap rides I'll continue to use the Trek Alpha 1.5.

I noticed that you said that the Torx was current. I bought new Centaur levers and they have 5 mm Allen. did they retain the Torx on the higher end stuff?

The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels. Though I think that they are C60 these days.. The construction of these are just WAY too good to be Chinese that don't have to build to Shimano standards.

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:10:34 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Andrew, I have been trying to use a ball-end Allen wrench to take the tightener loose. This worked perfectly to remove the Centaur levers and I can more or less see the connector under the rubber cover and it appears to be a normal 6 mm but the ball end doesn't fit. Is this because the fitting is too shallow in an attempt to save weight and I will have to find a straight end Allen wrench or is this fitting some weird size like a 5.5 mm?

5.5 mm???? It is a T25 IIRC.

Lou

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.

There you go, just look.

Lou

> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.

IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.

Lou

On 5/20/2022 10:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Campagnolo lever band nuts are a 5mm allen (steel, old) or a #T-25 Torx
> (aluminum, current.

Wait, is that an SAE T-25 or a Metric T-25? For regular people it's just
a T-25.

> We use these for the current fastener:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/er11b.jpg

These work too:
<https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-star-bit-screwdriver-set-94757.html>.
Or you can buy 6" T-25 bits.

> Bondhus ball-end tools are quite handy for running up fasteners in odd
> positions such as bottle cage screws. We use them often here, great
> product. But we tighten bottle cage screws with an L-shaped allen as the
> ball end chews up six-sided broaches under any reasonable torque. Get
> some tool with full engagement in the fastener.

A right angle screwdriver ratchet works well too
<https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html>.
I needed one of these to take a the back cover off the control panel for
a kitchen stove where I was replacing a burner switch. To pull the stove
out from the wall far enough to get to the screws with even a short
screwdriver would have been very difficult.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> There you go, just look.
>
> Lou
> > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.

Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.

Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > There you go, just look.
> >
> > Lou
> > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>
> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?

Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.

Lou

On 5/21/2022 10:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?

YOU complained about sharp Torx blades. As with most such complaints,
nobody else seems to have problems. I certainly haven't, and I don't see
anything particularly sharp on my Torx tools.

Is there a chance you confused your Torx driver with your pocketknife? ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/21/2022 9:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>> There you go, just look.
>>
>> Lou
>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>
> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>
> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>

Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
mini flashlight. YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > There you go, just look.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> >
> > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.

Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:30:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 9:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >> There you go, just look.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >
> > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> >
> > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> >
> Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
> mini flashlight. YMMV

It isn't as if I don't have all of the tools, but when you use one wrench to remove a 2020 lever you sort of expect it to work though I should have remembered that that these were 2015 levers. But you say that the Torx is presently standard. Seems rather silly since the only safe way to get that Torx in is to peel the hood as far back as necessary to see the lower edge of the bolt and then that allows you to get the Torx in there and turn it enough to lock it in so that the hood is in no danger. With the Allen all you have to do is fish around until you make a positive connection. In that manner you don't NEED lights or close optics.

If I remember correctly Lou is the only one here besides you to have any experience with the 11 or above speed high end Campy levers. I think that people who not have used these devices should not be commenting on anything that they don't themselves own and have worked on.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:48:10 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > There you go, just look.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > >
> > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges.

I build I think 5 or 6 Campy equipped bikes from scratch. 3 were/are mine. This is one build:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ac62sBVcmk5KbYr7A

Lou

On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>
> There you go, just look.
>
> Lou
>
>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>
> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.

In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:30:32 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 9:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >> There you go, just look.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >
> > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> >
> > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> >
> Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
> mini flashlight. YMMV
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I find this very handy:

https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-led-lenser-mh10-oplaadbare-hoofdlamp.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjwm6KUBhC3ARIsACIwxBin0SRgWj-eA2bAF48R0eJx9Csv2xaGU3gwRxCc5WR38P_QZpBrNZMaAmiMEALw_wcB

Lou

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >
> > There you go, just look.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> >> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >
> > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.

I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.

Lou

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> > On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > >
> > > There you go, just look.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > >> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > >
> > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> > manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> > a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> > product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.

You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:47 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:48:10 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > >
> > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges.
> I build I think 5 or 6 Campy equipped bikes from scratch. 3 were/are mine.. This is one build:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ac62sBVcmk5KbYr7A

The hoods on my Chorus group WOULD NOT peel back like that and I had to open the hoods from the other side, But you can see that you had to take steps to insert the Torx wrench that you had no need to to use an Allen.

On 5/21/2022 12:16 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>
>>> There you go, just look.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>
>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
>
> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.

But are they also building wheels for other manufacturers? In the U.S.
you have factories that5 build products sold under the brand of the
factory owner and that also build products sold under other names. A
Sears Kenmore appliance built by Whirlpool (but no more) is not
necessarily the same as a Whirlpool appliance.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:23:55 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:47 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:48:10 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges..
> > I build I think 5 or 6 Campy equipped bikes from scratch. 3 were/are mine. This is one build:
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/ac62sBVcmk5KbYr7A
> The hoods on my Chorus group WOULD NOT peel back like that and I had to open the hoods from the other side, But you can see that you had to take steps to insert the Torx wrench that you had no need to to use an Allen.
I notice that the hood on that lever you're showing seems to have straight moldings, Mine have 90 degree right angle molding supports. That's probably why Lou's would pull back that far and mine would not. I also have a set of replacement hoods a couple of years ago that also have this crisscross moldings.

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:50:27 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> On 5/21/2022 12:16 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >>>
> >>> There you go, just look.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >>>
> >>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> >> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> >> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> >> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> >
> > I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> But are they also building wheels for other manufacturers? In the U.S.
> you have factories that5 build products sold under the brand of the
> factory owner and that also build products sold under other names. A
> Sears Kenmore appliance built by Whirlpool (but no more) is not
> necessarily the same as a Whirlpool appliance.

Shimano is a big company they need all theproduction capacity for their own.

Lou

On Sat, 21 May 2022 13:30:27 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
>mini flashlight. YMMV

I carry a pocket protector with two ink pens, Sharpie pen, hemostat, 2
rulers, radio tuning tool, several paper clips and pocket screwdriver.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/pocket_protector.jpg>
On my belt, a cheap LiIon flashlight and sometimes a multi-tool:
<https://www.leatherman.com/wave-10.html> (much too heavy).
In my pocket, keys, pocket knife (box opener), magnifier:
<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61fl8wO-dSL._AC_SL1020_.jpg>

These days, my eyes need help, so I carry prescription driving
glasses. In the shop, I use either Dollar Store 2.00 diopter
magnifiers, or close up prescription "reading" glasses from
ZenniOptical.com (about $40 total). On the bench, I use a loupe with
built in LED for really close work:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/304369338475>
or a borescope camera connected to a computer or smartphone via USB.
The camera has built in lighting. Something like this:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/403617428620>

It's sometimes difficult to see the difference between a Torx and
Allen head screws, especially when the screw head is dirty. I put a
drop of oil or household cleaner into the socket hole, use a wire
brush to remove any dirt accumulation, and inspect with a magnifier
and light.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 5/21/2022 3:13 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:30:32 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/21/2022 9:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>
>>> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>>>
>>> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>>>
>> Like many in our age group, I carry a pocket magnifier and a
>> mini flashlight. YMMV
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> I find this very handy:
>
> https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-led-lenser-mh10-oplaadbare-hoofdlamp.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjwm6KUBhC3ARIsACIwxBin0SRgWj-eA2bAF48R0eJx9Csv2xaGU3gwRxCc5WR38P_QZpBrNZMaAmiMEALw_wcB

I have similar things, plus an array of flashlights. I don't currently
carry them as Andrew does, but I have in the past. I certainly have them
at hand in my workshop and my garage.

Why work blind?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:23:55 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:10:47 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:48:10 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges..
> > I build I think 5 or 6 Campy equipped bikes from scratch. 3 were/are mine. This is one build:
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/ac62sBVcmk5KbYr7A
> The hoods on my Chorus group WOULD NOT peel back like that and I had to open the hoods from the other side, But you can see that you had to take steps to insert the Torx wrench that you had no need to to use an Allen.

You have to peel the hood over the thumb shifter. That is a bit of a hassle but the hood can take it. That is tough rubber. This is/was the case with all the Campy shifters I worked on and that is 9-10-11 sp. Chorus 11 speed shifter (that is what we are talking about, no?) is exactly the same as the Super Record one I showed. This is the Chorus 11 sp shifter on a bike I sold:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DKBkFL9H82VuXCoj7

Lou

On 5/21/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>> Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>>>
>>> Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>> Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
>
> Lou, did you install your own levers or did they come on a pre-made bike? The manual that came with these Campy levers DID NOT tell you how to install them and hence did not mention that they were Torx fittings. I agree with you that Torx is a superior fitting in most applications except in a blind connection with a cover that is so easily destroyed by the Torx edges.
>

at www.campagnolo.com select 'support' and then download the
manual. Nice pictures.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971