On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:39:13 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 5:31 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There you go, just look.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >>>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> >>>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> >>>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> >>>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> >>>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> >>>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
> >>>
> >>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
> >>>
> >> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
> >>
> >> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Andy, a quote from your article:
> >
> > "For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.
> >
> > Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.
> >
> > Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
> >
> > Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.
> >
> It's not 'made in Japan' or even 'made by IJK'. It's off
> spec and, as tested, unsuitable for aircraft application, Mr
> Slocumb could probably elaborate.
>
> There was also a scandal in the 1990s over counterfeit
> aircraft spec _and_ MIL spec jet engine mounting bolts
> delivered into the USAF system. It's tempting to sell
> something which 'looks a lot like' a $150 bolt at large
> margin but an actual spec bolt is different material, thread
> quality, heat treatment and has been individually
> magnafluxed or XRayed. Counterfeits in aircraft can kill
> people which is why it's such a big deal.
>
> It's also newsy this year that counterfeit prescription drug
> pills are being sold containing fatal doses of fentanyl. Ouch.
>
> https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/my-son-did-not-want-to-die-how-and-why-fentanyl-is-ending-up-in-pills/
>
> https://abcnews.go.com/international/counterfeit-prescription-pills-made-fentanyl-killing-americans-dea/story?id=66740190
>
> Your fake Rolex or Bora wheel is not likely to tempt death.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

But the quote from the story, direct quote, was "But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."

To me that means the Japanese company IJK made the bearings. Maybe not in Japan. Maybe in one of their foreign subsidiaries. But manufactured by IJK. Kind of like when Shimano makes products in Thailand or Vietnam or China. They are all still made by Shimano. So have the Shimano quality associated with them.

I am not claiming the bearings were good just because they were made by a Japanese company. They could have been below specifications and not suitable. Yes. I am sure there are sub standard Japanese companies today. Not all are high quality.

But it still strikes me as somewhat humorous that 35 years ago bearings made by a Japanese company were considered below specification and low quality.. How times have changed. Now days if almost anything is made by a Japanese company, it is revered. Its considered highest quality until it is demonstrably proven that it is not.

On 5/22/2022 10:16 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:39:13 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 5:31 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There you go, just look.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>>>>>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
>>>>>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
>>>>>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
>>>>>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
>>>>>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
>>>>>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
>>>>>
>>>> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>> Andy, a quote from your article:
>>>
>>> "For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.
>>>
>>> Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.
>>>
>>> Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
>>>
>>> Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.
>>>
>> It's not 'made in Japan' or even 'made by IJK'. It's off
>> spec and, as tested, unsuitable for aircraft application, Mr
>> Slocumb could probably elaborate.
>>
>> There was also a scandal in the 1990s over counterfeit
>> aircraft spec _and_ MIL spec jet engine mounting bolts
>> delivered into the USAF system. It's tempting to sell
>> something which 'looks a lot like' a $150 bolt at large
>> margin but an actual spec bolt is different material, thread
>> quality, heat treatment and has been individually
>> magnafluxed or XRayed. Counterfeits in aircraft can kill
>> people which is why it's such a big deal.
>>
>> It's also newsy this year that counterfeit prescription drug
>> pills are being sold containing fatal doses of fentanyl. Ouch.
>>
>> https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/my-son-did-not-want-to-die-how-and-why-fentanyl-is-ending-up-in-pills/
>>
>> https://abcnews.go.com/international/counterfeit-prescription-pills-made-fentanyl-killing-americans-dea/story?id=66740190
>>
>> Your fake Rolex or Bora wheel is not likely to tempt death.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> But the quote from the story, direct quote, was "But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
>
> To me that means the Japanese company IJK made the bearings. Maybe not in Japan. Maybe in one of their foreign subsidiaries. But manufactured by IJK. Kind of like when Shimano makes products in Thailand or Vietnam or China. They are all still made by Shimano. So have the Shimano quality associated with them.
>
> I am not claiming the bearings were good just because they were made by a Japanese company. They could have been below specifications and not suitable. Yes. I am sure there are sub standard Japanese companies today. Not all are high quality.
>
> But it still strikes me as somewhat humorous that 35 years ago bearings made by a Japanese company were considered below specification and low quality. How times have changed. Now days if almost anything is made by a Japanese company, it is revered. Its considered highest quality until it is demonstrably proven that it is not.
>

You're conflating factory with specification.

If it was an actual Timken bearing made to a lower
(non-aircraf) spec and sold with false
certification/inspection report, the result would be the
same. Many aircraft parts and hardware are not only
different material, hardness, thread form (often over the
usual 75% engagement) and so on. Many are 100% QC inspection
and magnaflux/XRay with serial or lot numbers and paperwork
to match.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > >
> > > Lou
> > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> >
> > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car.. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > >
> > > Lou
> > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> >
> > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car.. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.

Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time. Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron and steel.

This being a holiday my pro race mechanic is closed but tomorrow I will ask him his thoughts on Torx for the handlebar tighteners.

Don't think I don'y respect your opinions, but opinions are hardly law and they didn't make a Torx 25, 8 cm long because they didn't think that it was going to be used in the same manner as the T-handle Allen wrenches.

It is not moving on to save at most 4 grams and make it more difficult to adjust. To adjust the hiegth and slant of the Centaur 11 speed you just slip the 5 mm Allen wrench in and feel it drop into the channel and CLICK into the bolt. You can then easily adjust height and rotation without tearing the hood off of the lever. Also presicely how do you extimate the position of the lever with it all torn apart like that?

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:21:29 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 10:16 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:39:13 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2022 5:31 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 5/21/2022 6:44 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-5, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:16:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:13:44 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/21/2022 2:12 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There you go, just look.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> >>>>>>>> In any case, the factory is immaterial. I've been to contract
> >>>>>>>> manufacturers all over the world. For one customer they can be building
> >>>>>>>> a high-quality product, for another customer they can be building a
> >>>>>>>> product with parts from all over the world that no one else wants.
> >>>>>>> I don't think Shimano outsource their wheels. These are Shimano factory, with local assembly people but Japanese management for their DA line.
> >>>>>> You're probably right but the wheels I obtained look exactly the same and have the same weight. So if they aren't Shimano they are nearly a perfect copy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tommy, that is what counterfeiters, fake companies, rip off artists, do. They make copies that are difficult to tell from the original. Unless you know what you are looking for. And notice the wrong things being used. Or things done in the original way. I am sure your wheels are cosmetically the same as genuine Shimano wheels. The fakers can get glossy topcoats that look just as glossy as Shimano wheels. And they have their carbon fibers woven in the same texture as Shimano. And use similar looking spokes. But the spoke metal is not the same quality as Shimano. And the carbon is not the same quality as Shimano. Even though it looks the same from outside. And the final assemblers do not tighten everything as uniformly and tightly as Shimano does. You bought fake counterfeit wheels that you are trying to pretend or sell to others as genuine Shimano wheels.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Not only bicycle wheels. And not a recent phenomenon at all:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-01-27-mn-1479-story.html
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>> Andy, a quote from your article:
> >>>
> >>> "For example, the Boeing Co. discovered early last year that it had installed more than 2,000 allegedly counterfeit ball bearings in its 737, 747, 757 and 767 commercial jets manufactured between April, 1986, and January, 1988.
> >>>
> >>> Engineers for the Seattle aerospace giant tested a sample of the bearings and found defects that could cause them to break.
> >>>
> >>> Boeing thought it had bought a brand-name bearing manufactured by Torrington Co., a Connecticut-based ball bearings manufacturer. Etchings on the bearings, which were sold by Alliance Bearing Industries of Van Nuys, said they were made by a Torrington division. But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
> >>>
> >>> Now, that did happen 35 years ago. But today, you and me would fight to our last breath to have a Japanese company make our bearings.
> >>>
> >> It's not 'made in Japan' or even 'made by IJK'. It's off
> >> spec and, as tested, unsuitable for aircraft application, Mr
> >> Slocumb could probably elaborate.
> >>
> >> There was also a scandal in the 1990s over counterfeit
> >> aircraft spec _and_ MIL spec jet engine mounting bolts
> >> delivered into the USAF system. It's tempting to sell
> >> something which 'looks a lot like' a $150 bolt at large
> >> margin but an actual spec bolt is different material, thread
> >> quality, heat treatment and has been individually
> >> magnafluxed or XRayed. Counterfeits in aircraft can kill
> >> people which is why it's such a big deal.
> >>
> >> It's also newsy this year that counterfeit prescription drug
> >> pills are being sold containing fatal doses of fentanyl. Ouch.
> >>
> >> https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/my-son-did-not-want-to-die-how-and-why-fentanyl-is-ending-up-in-pills/
> >>
> >> https://abcnews.go.com/international/counterfeit-prescription-pills-made-fentanyl-killing-americans-dea/story?id=66740190
> >>
> >> Your fake Rolex or Bora wheel is not likely to tempt death.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > But the quote from the story, direct quote, was "But in fact, the bearings were manufactured by IJK, a Japanese company."
> >
> > To me that means the Japanese company IJK made the bearings. Maybe not in Japan. Maybe in one of their foreign subsidiaries. But manufactured by IJK. Kind of like when Shimano makes products in Thailand or Vietnam or China. They are all still made by Shimano. So have the Shimano quality associated with them.
> >
> > I am not claiming the bearings were good just because they were made by a Japanese company. They could have been below specifications and not suitable. Yes. I am sure there are sub standard Japanese companies today. Not all are high quality.
> >
> > But it still strikes me as somewhat humorous that 35 years ago bearings made by a Japanese company were considered below specification and low quality. How times have changed. Now days if almost anything is made by a Japanese company, it is revered. Its considered highest quality until it is demonstrably proven that it is not.
> >
> You're conflating factory with specification.
>
> If it was an actual Timken bearing made to a lower
> (non-aircraf) spec and sold with false
> certification/inspection report, the result would be the
> same. Many aircraft parts and hardware are not only
> different material, hardness, thread form (often over the
> usual 75% engagement) and so on. Many are 100% QC inspection
> and magnaflux/XRay with serial or lot numbers and paperwork
> to match.

Well, there Timken was always the best sealed bearings I used and there are a LOT of couterfeit SKF bearings on the market. Even Habini was complaining about that qne he is a jet engine engineer.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:22:29 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> > >
> > > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> > You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.
> Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time. Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron and steel.
>
> This being a holiday my pro race mechanic is closed but tomorrow I will ask him his thoughts on Torx for the handlebar tighteners.
>
> Don't think I don'y respect your opinions, but opinions are hardly law and they didn't make a Torx 25, 8 cm long because they didn't think that it was going to be used in the same manner as the T-handle Allen wrenches.
>
> It is not moving on to save at most 4 grams and make it more difficult to adjust. To adjust the hiegth and slant of the Centaur 11 speed you just slip the 5 mm Allen wrench in and feel it drop into the channel and CLICK into the bolt. You can then easily adjust height and rotation without tearing the hood off of the lever. Also presicely how do you extimate the position of the lever with it all torn apart like that?

We could argue about weight savings by using titanium or aluminum bolts on some places but that is not the point. Adjusting your lever is a one time job and it is mostly done before securing the cables to the handlebar and putting the handlebar tape on so peeling back the hoods for that is not an issue even if it takes 2 or 3 iterations. Putting the hoods back is a matter of seconds. How can that be a problem? Personally I am very picky about the tilt of the handlebar and level position and I always do the adjusting during a test ride before putting the handlebar tape on taking the necessary tools with me during that test ride. I torque it to spec at home. Works great.

There are lots of suspension parts made out of aluminum BTW and Torx are used in cars for different reasons that weight savings as we do in our engines at work.

Lou

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 2:50:41 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:22:29 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> > > >
> > > > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> > > You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.
> > Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time. Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron and steel.
> >
> > This being a holiday my pro race mechanic is closed but tomorrow I will ask him his thoughts on Torx for the handlebar tighteners.
> >
> > Don't think I don'y respect your opinions, but opinions are hardly law and they didn't make a Torx 25, 8 cm long because they didn't think that it was going to be used in the same manner as the T-handle Allen wrenches.
> >
> > It is not moving on to save at most 4 grams and make it more difficult to adjust. To adjust the hiegth and slant of the Centaur 11 speed you just slip the 5 mm Allen wrench in and feel it drop into the channel and CLICK into the bolt. You can then easily adjust height and rotation without tearing the hood off of the lever. Also presicely how do you extimate the position of the lever with it all torn apart like that?
> We could argue about weight savings by using titanium or aluminum bolts on some places but that is not the point. Adjusting your lever is a one time job and it is mostly done before securing the cables to the handlebar and putting the handlebar tape on so peeling back the hoods for that is not an issue even if it takes 2 or 3 iterations. Putting the hoods back is a matter of seconds. How can that be a problem? Personally I am very picky about the tilt of the handlebar and level position and I always do the adjusting during a test ride before putting the handlebar tape on taking the necessary tools with me during that test ride. I torque it to spec at home. Works great.
>
> There are lots of suspension parts made out of aluminum BTW and Torx are used in cars for different reasons that weight savings as we do in our engines at work.

Well, I'll take your word about using them in engines. And I agree that you normally set the levers up once during initial assembly. But for my money I think that they were developed for making a pretty strip-proof connection into shallow and/or soft aluminum or titanium which I just looked up and discovered it has half or less the sheer strength of aluminum. That was a surprise.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:50:41 p.m. UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 8:22:29 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> > > >
> > > > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> > > You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.
> > Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time. Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron and steel.
> >
> > This being a holiday my pro race mechanic is closed but tomorrow I will ask him his thoughts on Torx for the handlebar tighteners.
> >
> > Don't think I don'y respect your opinions, but opinions are hardly law and they didn't make a Torx 25, 8 cm long because they didn't think that it was going to be used in the same manner as the T-handle Allen wrenches.
> >
> > It is not moving on to save at most 4 grams and make it more difficult to adjust. To adjust the hiegth and slant of the Centaur 11 speed you just slip the 5 mm Allen wrench in and feel it drop into the channel and CLICK into the bolt. You can then easily adjust height and rotation without tearing the hood off of the lever. Also presicely how do you extimate the position of the lever with it all torn apart like that?
> We could argue about weight savings by using titanium or aluminum bolts on some places but that is not the point. Adjusting your lever is a one time job and it is mostly done before securing the cables to the handlebar and putting the handlebar tape on so peeling back the hoods for that is not an issue even if it takes 2 or 3 iterations. Putting the hoods back is a matter of seconds. How can that be a problem? Personally I am very picky about the tilt of the handlebar and level position and I always do the adjusting during a test ride before putting the handlebar tape on taking the necessary tools with me during that test ride. I torque it to spec at home. Works great.
>
> There are lots of suspension parts made out of aluminum BTW and Torx are used in cars for different reasons that weight savings as we do in our engines at work.
>
> Lou

I do the same thing. Sometimes what feels right at the beginning of a ride needs to be tweaked a bit during the ride.

Cheers

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 6:40:54 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Well, I'll take your word about using [torx screws] in engines. And I agree that you normally set the levers up once during initial assembly. But for my money I think that they were developed for making a pretty strip-proof connection into shallow and/or soft aluminum or titanium which I just looked up and discovered it has half or less the sheer strength of aluminum. That was a surprise.

Titanium has half the sheer (sic) strength of aluminum?? Are you talking about alloys commercially used for fasteners?

Whether you mean "sheer" or "shear" that's nonsense.

- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 23 May 2022 20:20:17 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 6:40:54 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Well, I'll take your word about using [torx screws] in engines. And I agree that you normally set the levers up once during initial assembly. But for my money I think that they were developed for making a pretty strip-proof connection into shallow and/or soft aluminum or titanium which I just looked up and discovered it has half or less the sheer strength of aluminum. That was a surprise.
>
>Titanium has half the sheer (sic) strength of aluminum?? Are you talking about alloys commercially used for fasteners?
>
>Whether you mean "sheer" or "shear" that's nonsense.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Or perhaps the Sheer Shear?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 1:22:29 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
> > > > > > > > There you go, just look.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
> > > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
> > > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
> > > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
> > > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
> > >
> > > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
> > You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.
> Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time.

Tommy boy said:
> Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron and steel.

Tommy, many many many engine blocks/motors are made out of aluminum today. I understand you are stupid and ignorant, but please try to at least open your eyes and ears and learn something about the world going on around you.

>
> This being a holiday my pro race mechanic is closed but tomorrow I will ask him his thoughts on Torx for the handlebar tighteners.
>
> Don't think I don'y respect your opinions, but opinions are hardly law and they didn't make a Torx 25, 8 cm long because they didn't think that it was going to be used in the same manner as the T-handle Allen wrenches.
>
> It is not moving on to save at most 4 grams and make it more difficult to adjust. To adjust the hiegth and slant of the Centaur 11 speed you just slip the 5 mm Allen wrench in and feel it drop into the channel and CLICK into the bolt. You can then easily adjust height and rotation without tearing the hood off of the lever. Also presicely how do you extimate the position of the lever with it all torn apart like that?

???? Tommy, after you pull the rubber hood over the thumb button, and tighten the clamp bolt, you try to position it in the right spot. Then flip the rubber hood back over the thumb button to its regular place. Then put the bike near a wall and get on the saddle and lean against the wall. You then test if the hoods are in the right spot. If not then you figure out where you want them and flip the rubber hood back over the thumb button and loosen the clamp bolt. Move the lever and repeat until you get the levers exactly where you want them. This may take one or two or maybe three attempts. Not too difficult for competent people.

On Mon, 23 May 2022 22:34:15 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 1:22:29 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:37:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:00:27 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 10:46:51 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:18:23 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:49:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 4:07:56 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:12:45 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:09:47 PM UTC+2, cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:54:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Thanks Andrew. It turns out to be a Torx when observed under a bright light.
>> > > > > > > > There you go, just look.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Lou
>> > > > > > > > > The wheels I have were made in China but they HAVE to be the same company that manufactures the Shimano Dura Ace C50 wheels.
>> > > > > > > > IIRC Dura Ace wheels are made in Malaysia.
>> > > > > > > Tell me Lou - do you have X-ray vision and can see through rubber covers? This does not peel back far enough to actually see the entire screw head so it appears to be an Allen. Under bright sunlight the visible edge just barely glistens enough to make the Torx edges out. I don't generally have bright Sunlight in the garage and had to disassemble what I had just put together and take it out into the sunlight to do this. And I had JUST taken the Centaur levers off using a 5 mm Allen wrench.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Comments like "just look" are not in the least helpful. Didn't we go through this before about Torx being a very bad choice for using in a place where you had to dig around to find the connector with sharp Torx blades and easily cut rubber surfaces?
>> > > > > > Of course you can peel back the hoods to see the screw. Torx is an excellent choice in any application. Ymmv and most of the times it does.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Lou
>> > > > > I can plainly see from your photograph that your hood was flexible enough to pull back. A question might be why did you feel the need to do that when all previous levers made by Campy and Shimano and SRAM had a channel to insert the wrench down. I suggest you did that because you're quite aware that you can cut the inside of the hood with the sharp edges of the Torx wench. While I agree with you that it is an optimal wrench for aluminum fittings, that in this application the slight savings in weight are far outweighed by the chance of danage to the hoods.
>> > > > Why did I do that? Because the f*cking manual says so and to me it is the logical way. I do the same with my Shimano shifters, like anyone else. Because they don't have the thumb shifter it is easier there. How do you wrap you handlebar tape properly without peeling back the hood BTW? Stop this 'damaging the hoods' nonsense. Never worried about that
>> > > >
>> > > > Lou
>> > > So they changed their method of getting to the tightener from simply sticking the Allen Wrench throught the forward end of the hood down the channel to tighten it up to essentially disassembling the lever/hood including tearing the hood off of the button for downshifting. And YOU think that this is a superior means of connecting the lever to the handlebar since it save perhaps 2 grams? Lou, why are we even arguing about this when the latest Centaur lever has Allen screws that work perfectly well?
>> > >
>> > > Should I get the opinion of a professional racing mechanic?
>> > You making things up and it makes you look stupid. Show me an official Campagnolo manual were sticking a tool blindly under the hood to fasten the shifter is the official method. My position on Torx is that it is a superior design compared to an allen bolt. The world has moved on. Look in your car. A mechanical engineer at my company that uses allen bolts in their designs gets 'fired/shot'.
>> Lou, the only Campy tech manual that shows the 11 speed installation shows the same way your photo did. I suppose that Campy included that wrench channel so that they could reduce the weight of the lever assembly. As for cars - using either an Allen or a Torx on steel parts is a complete waste of time.
>
>Tommy boy said:
>> Or perhaps you believe that motors and major components like suspension parts
should be made out of aluminum which is twice the price of cast iron
and steel.
>
>Tommy, many many many engine blocks/motors are made out of aluminum today. I understand you are stupid and ignorant, but please try to at least open your eyes and ears and learn something about the world going on around you.

Yawn... The Wright Brother's engine that powered their first airplane
had an aluminum crankcase. That was in 1903... Wake up Tommy, that was
119 years ago.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Want to create a custom WordPress dashboard on your website?

You may want to create a more personalized experience for your clients or third-party users, such as freelance writers or bloggers. Alternatively, you can work on your own website and just find a way to create a more streamlined admin interface to fit your workflow. For customization your WP Admin dashboard go and get this wp plugin: https://wpadminify.com/wordpress-dashboard-customization/

ShortURL allows to reduce long links from Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linked In and top sites on the Internet, just paste the long URL and click the Shorten URL button. On the next screen, copy the shortened URL and share it on websites, chat and e-mail. After shortening the URL, check how many clicks it received. https://geturl.cyou