I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.

In the spirit of paying it forward I am working on a video series making
"useful" molds on a PIECE Of Shi.. Er Sweet Potato Mini Manual Milling
Machine. Most of these "molds" will not be commercial resale grade, but
if anybody wants to buy one... The goal is to give people who couldn't
afford anything better than a Seig X2 in one of its many variations or
variations on paint scheme to do something fun and possibly useful.

I have no use for it. I already have a South Bend Knee Mill that is
very nice for my manual milling needs. At first I thought about using
that for the project. That would be cheating. Its as much better than
an X2 clone as a half million dollar Haas mold cutter is to a Taig. It
would be perceived as disingenuous to use a $24000 machine to
demonstrate what you "can do" on a $1000 machine. It would be perceived
that way because it would be true. It would be blatantly dishonest to
say "because I can do it on a 2 ton 5 HP knee mill with DROs and power
feeds that you can do it on a 130 lb .3 horsepower Piece of Shi... Err
Sweet Potato."

In spite of my belief in spending money to make money and spending money
to save time because time is money... I am still inherently frugal.
Finally I decided to my integrity was worth than that. I bought one.
There are cheaper mills, but they are so small ass to not be practical
for this experiment. I did buy the absolute cheapest one I could find.
It was not the one from Harbor Freight. Harbor Freight had the cheapest
sticker price I could find, but it was online only. After tax and
shipping it was about 6 dollars more expensive than the one I bought.

The first video will be an introduction covering this and maybe with a
fast motion overview of the first mold. It will be a concept
introduction video.

Before Episode One which will probably be about making a lead casting
mold of some kind there will be some beginner videos.

A. Machine over view and deficiencies.
B. Work holding and Work Holding on a budget.
C Tool Selection and tool holding with a focus on the initial project
videos.
D. Minimum tooling and best cost benefit for part location, and machine
tram and alignment.

That may be put into just two videos and anybody who already knows how
they will do those things will be encouraged to skip them and wait for
Episode One.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t4ukhc$1iuu$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.

In the spirit of paying it forward I am working on a video series making
"useful" molds on a PIECE Of Shi.. Er Sweet Potato Mini Manual Milling
Machine. Most of these "molds" will not be commercial resale grade, but
if anybody wants to buy one... The goal is to give people who couldn't
afford anything better than a Seig X2 in one of its many variations or
variations on paint scheme to do something fun and possibly useful.
.....

--------------------

Thank you. You are very generous to donate your time to help beginners.

I've tried to find the line between purely hobby mills and those that are
adequate for serious work, for an inventor or mold maker perhaps. My
Clausing would serve nicely if it was still in production, and especially if
it took R8 collets.
https://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/clausing-8520-mill/

The generous spacing between 0.001" divisions allows finer positioning.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing%20vertical/img14.jpg

I haven't used a machine in the Sieg X2 class. The work envelope seems close
to the Clausing's. Power is lower but the Clausing's power and rigidity
aren't outstanding either.

I tried and pretty much gave up on an RF-31 due to its poor accuracy, 0.005"
was possible with effort, 0.001" wasn't for too many uncorrectable reasons.
I though a 2-dimensional workspace would be adequate for electronics,
drilling control panels etc, but it wasn't when I need to make a precision
part for handling machinery. That job went to the Clausing.

The other candidate I had a chance to use was the Enco variant of this:
(short URL)
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-6-x-26-1-1-2-hp-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0729
HF offers one for $2500. (long URL) The reviews from experienced
machinists are mostly good.

It appeared to be an updated version of the Clausing, with the same head
tilt and swivel (but not extend) and an R8 spindle. The major components of
the Enco were decently machined but the small parts looked like someone made
them by hand at home. I could improve their fit with a file. The engineer
who ordered it was Swiss and had adapted it for ER collets, which consumed
most of the vertical working space.

I think a well-made version of it would be fine for someone who needs
precision more than large working envelope. For milling small parts I prefer
the Clausing's ergonomics to a Bridgeport's.

On 5/4/2022 8:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:t4ukhc$1iuu$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>
> In the spirit of paying it forward I am working on a video series making
> "useful" molds on a PIECE Of Shi.. Er Sweet Potato Mini Manual Milling
> Machine.  Most of these "molds" will not be commercial resale grade, but
> if anybody wants to buy one... The goal is to give people who couldn't
> afford anything better than a Seig X2 in one of its many variations or
> variations on paint scheme to do something fun and possibly useful.
> ....
>
> --------------------
>
> Thank you. You are very generous to donate your time to help beginners.
>
> I've tried to find the line between purely hobby mills and those that
> are adequate for serious work, for an inventor or mold maker perhaps. My
> Clausing would serve nicely if it was still in production, and
> especially if it took R8 collets.
> https://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/clausing-8520-mill/

That first picture looks like a combination of a radial drill press and
a mill. Interesting machine. I am guessing yours is more like the
second picture.

>
> The generous spacing between 0.001" divisions allows finer positioning.
> http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing%20vertical/img14.jpg
>

That is a failing on many mini machine tools. Worse some have divisions
of .002. I don't know yet about my new mini mill. Its still in the crate

> I haven't used a machine in the Sieg X2 class. The work envelope seems
> close to the Clausing's. Power is lower but the Clausing's power and
> rigidity aren't outstanding either.
>

Roughly 1/3 hp if the specs are to believed. You can do a lot with 1/3
HP (that's what the Taig has), but... I'll leave that to the overview
and deficencies video. My fear is that its like some other import motor
specs where they rated it at close to the stall current.

> I tried and pretty much gave up on an RF-31 due to its poor accuracy,
> 0.005" was possible with effort, 0.001" wasn't for too many
> uncorrectable reasons. I though a 2-dimensional workspace would be
> adequate for electronics, drilling control panels etc, but it wasn't
> when I need to make a precision part for handling machinery. That job
> went to the Clausing.

I had an RF30 from Harbor Freight from back when Harbor Freight had more
than two mills. I felt it was not great, but it also spent 30 years on
a guy's back porch work shop. When I sold it I had to take a sudden cut
in price because the motor failed to turn on when I went to show it to
the buyer. It had been running fine, and was still covered in chips
from its last job. Oh, well. Interestingly from what I can garner most
prints are considered to be 0 to +.005 unless there is a call out. I do
have another smaller round column mill drill, but it has no fine feed on
Z making it just an XY drill press. Its sad because it actually has a
better spindle than the RF30. I used it once in a while for rough
milling work by using the depth stop and gage blocks to set semi
accurate depth. I got it cheaper than a drill press because one of the
gibb adjusting screws was missing. I made a short video about replacing
he quill lock handle with a shop made shoulder bolt I could use a vise
wrench on. I may have posted it here in the past.

>
> The other candidate I had a chance to use was the Enco variant of this:
> (short URL)
> https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-6-x-26-1-1-2-hp-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0729
>

Those middle weight bed mills can be ok. I can't speak to Enco. I
always thought those Enco machines were like Harbor Freight machines of
the same era. Just so you know. MSC still has a few Enco machines left
over after the buy out. I see them on the website from time to time
when I am looking for other things. I had an RF 45 and it was ok, but
head nod and tram were always a struggle. I had to shim the column
below the base, and shim the head between the pivot. Mine was a badly
implemented CNC conversion, and eventually the seller gave me a Syil X4
and let me keep the main carcass of the machine in exchange for sending
back all the control board. I still have pieces of that machine here
and there. The Taiwan assembled machines from Precision Mathews seem to
be the bang for the buck machines today. Matt sells Chinese machines,
and machines made in Taiwan. My 14 x 40 lathe is one of his Chinese
made machines, and I am pretty happy with it for the price I paid. ($5K
at the time. Its more now.) Dave (Dale?) Clements (aka ArizonaVideo99)
in Phoenix has a thriving business in making CNC conversion kits for
Precision Mathews milling machines.

> HF offers one for $2500.  (long URL)  The reviews from experienced
> machinists are mostly good.

I don't think so. Last I looked Harbor freight only offers two mills
now. The X2 or X2 clone, and a miniature knee mill that needs to set on
a stand to be at a comfortable work height. They have cut out 95% of
the "industrial" machines they used to sell. Maybe I confused the
Clausing you were talking about (which looks similar) and the bed mill
you were talking about.

>
> It appeared to be an updated version of the Clausing, with the same head
> tilt and swivel (but not extend) and an R8 spindle. The major components
> of the Enco were decently machined but the small parts looked like
> someone made them by hand at home. I could improve their fit with a
> file. The engineer who ordered it was Swiss and had adapted it for ER
> collets, which consumed most of the vertical working space.
>
> I think a well-made version of it would be fine for someone who needs
> precision more than large working envelope. For milling small parts I
> prefer the Clausing's ergonomics to a Bridgeport's.
>

I am under no illusions abut the X2 clone I bought. Its got lots of
deficiencies. I am already aware of some of them. Some I may discover
when I take it out of the crate. Others may not become known until I
start cutting parts. I expect no particular degree of accuracy, and I
imagine of lot of the videos will contain elements of "good enough" vs
tolerance stacking. Its a challenge more than anything else. I'm NOT a
manual machinist. I just do a little manual machining when its faster
and easier than doing it on the CNC mill or when the CNC mills are all
busy.

There are version with R8 spindles and versions with Morse taper
spindles. I'll talk about that when I get to tool selection and tool
holding.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.

[rambling trimmed]

Are the Taig machines as goofy as they look? How usable at they in manual
mode?

I briefly looked at them before going with a Sherline. No regrets- the
Sherline stuff is small, but works great within those limitations. The
variable speed motor isn't revolutionary, but Taig didn't offer that at
the time. The whole single speed fan motor design just seemed stupid and
lazy.

On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>
> [rambling trimmed]
>

Tangent trimmed.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>>
>> [rambling trimmed]
>>
>
> Tangent trimmed.
>

IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t50qd1$tmq$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On 5/4/2022 8:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> .....
> My Clausing would serve nicely if it was still in production, and
> especially if it took R8 collets.
> https://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/clausing-8520-mill/

That first picture looks like a combination of a radial drill press and
a mill. Interesting machine. I am guessing yours is more like the
second picture.

----------
Nope, I have a slightly different earlier version of the one that's drilling
angled holes. I think the second photo shows a Clausing base with a
Bridgeport M head. One clamp locks both head tilt and ram slide and they are
are best left alone after positioning the spindle relative to the rear vise
jaw and tramming the tilt. Despite its slim appearance it's a real live
precision steel-cutting milling machine as long as you aren't in a
urry. -jsw
----------

> The other candidate I had a chance to use was the Enco variant of this:
> (short URL)
> https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-6-x-26-1-1-2-hp-vertical-mill-with-power-feed/g0729

Those middle weight bed mills can be ok. I can't speak to Enco. I
always thought those Enco machines were like Harbor Freight machines of
the same era. Just so you know.

---------
I certainly do know. Enco had a nearby store where I could inspect a machine
before buying it to see if I could cure its flaws.
The RF-31 I mentioned came from MSC but may have been an Enco.
Even the worst machine I bought, a used 30" CM shear/brake/roll, could be
patched and tweaked to work well enough although the previous owner had
given up fighting it. He may not have understood how to make the
adjustments it still needed. I made it shear paper. -jsw
---------

> HF offers one for $2500. (long URL) The reviews from experienced
> machinists are mostly good.

I don't think so. Last I looked Harbor freight only offers two mills
now. The X2 or X2 clone, and a miniature knee mill that needs to set on
a stand to be at a comfortable work height. They have cut out 95% of
the "industrial" machines they used to sell.

---------
I found a shorter URL this time:
https://www.harborfreight.com/vertical-milling-machine-40939.html
It looks like the Enco which was the same compact size as my Clausing, with
an R8 spindle, 26" x 6.5" table and more power. I made a log splitter,
sawmill and a bucket loader for my garden tractor on a mill that size. At
~650 Lbs it isn't "miniature", the original M head Bridgeport wasn't that
much larger, though considerably heavier at 1500#.
https://nateduxbury.wordpress.com/2018/11/02/bridgeport-m-head-milling-machine-pt-1-new-to-me-machine/
-jsw
---------

I am under no illusions abut the X2 clone I bought. Its got lots of
deficiencies. I am already aware of some of them. Some I may discover
when I take it out of the crate. Others may not become known until I
start cutting parts. I expect no particular degree of accuracy, and I
imagine of lot of the videos will contain elements of "good enough" vs
tolerance stacking. Its a challenge more than anything else. I'm NOT a
manual machinist. I just do a little manual machining when its faster
and easier than doing it on the CNC mill or when the CNC mills are all
busy.

--------------
Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance of
price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope it lives
up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented the HF compact
knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The size is good, if not
the implementation. Every metal part I designed at Mitre or milled on
Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my Clausing or its
quivalent. -jsw

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
>>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>>>
>>> [rambling trimmed]
>>>
>>
>> Tangent trimmed.
>>
>
>
> IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
> rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
> deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
> the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
> bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.

Well, not interested in the video of a person that rambles on and on about
who knows what. They'll no doubt be really long and have no point.

Have fun with them though.

On 5/5/2022 2:09 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>> On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
>>>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>>>>
>>>> [rambling trimmed]
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tangent trimmed.
>>>
>>
>>
>> IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
>> rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
>> deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
>> the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
>> bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.
>
> Well, not interested in the video of a person that rambles on and on about
> who knows what. They'll no doubt be really long and have no point.
>
> Have fun with them though.
Have fun being superior in your own mind all by yourself.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 5/5/2022 12:15 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance of
> price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope it
> lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented the HF
> compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The size is
> good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed at Mitre or
> milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my Clausing or its
> quivalent.  -jsw
>

I'm ok with it falling on its face (figuratively). One of its KNOWN
deficiencies would already drive me crazy if I didn't have a plan for
that after its first ore second basic project.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t51m17$mn8$1@dont-email.me...

On 5/5/2022 12:15 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance of
> price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope it
> lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented the HF
> compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The size is
> good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed at Mitre or
> milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my Clausing or its
> quivalent. -jsw
>

I'm ok with it falling on its face (figuratively). One of its KNOWN
deficiencies would already drive me crazy if I didn't have a plan for
that after its first ore second basic project.

------------------

What was your second choice?

The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy, how much do you really
need and want to to spend. I can answer that the size of my machines has
proven adequate to make my own designs since I can adjust them to the
machines' capacity, and they are small enough to fit easily into a house,
unlike a Bridgeport. They are probably too small for general commercial or
serious automotive work. They are old American iron that's scarce and likely
worn, thus I looked for current equivalents.

Size-wise the most demanding use for them has been making modifications and
repairs to homeowner lawn and garden equipment. I'm ahead if a $1000 machine
tool can salvage a $2000 garden tractor, so in that respect they have paid
for themselves. I used them to demonstrate that I could do more than my job
description suggested, and advanced at work. Perhaps they could be used to
take in repairs, except for the zoning and liability concerns and the need
for heat-treating the sort of parts that wear out.

I use them pretty much as I think was intended, to make custom tooling and
lab demos and experiments. They are larger than necessary for model engines.
Besides the Clausing I have a 10" lathe, plus other stuff but those two are
the essentials. I've talked to repair shop owners who had a mill-drill
instead of a knee mill and were satisfied with it. I might manage with a
mill-drill of better quality than the one I tried, but I definitely need
0.001" accuracy on the Z axis.

As for CNC, I don't even have a DRO. I usually make only one of a part and
refine its design as I go, or trim it to fit another part that may be worn
out of size. For that manual graduated dials and cut-to-fit are good enough.
I learned paper and pencil drafting in the 50's when most machines had only
dials and that won WW2 and got us to the moon. I've done plenty of CAD/CNC
design for aerospace and learned to translate a paper drawing into G code
but I don't have to depend on it.

For example last evening I used the lathe to press-fit a 5/32" tube into the
4mm drain opening of my car's radiator, so I could cleanly drain and re-use
the low mileage coolant when replacing the thermostat. It was a purely
cut-and-try operation. I've found the CNC control panel on a Bridgeport to
be a hindrance when I was trimming a casting to a scribed line.

That's my two cents worth. I can't recommend any particular currently
available machine. Does anyone have one they really like?
-jsw

On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,

That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of newbies
who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really know what to
do with it. I sort of started that way. My first "real" machine tool
was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight. My wife gave it to me for
Christmas. I piddled with it a bit mostly turning metal into chips. I
had little knowledge or skill about turning. I think the first real
useful real world project I made also came from my wife. She suggested
a bracket to mount on the back of a piece of medical equipment that
would facilitate holding the consumable's dispensers without having to
drill more holes in a wall and mount it separately. I turned a couple
dozen tiny little nail head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it
worked very well. The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of
looking tacked up. I'm not trying to SELL a machine. Maybe if somebody
had given me one for this project I might highlight its unique features
if any over some other machines, but nobody did. I paid full retail for
one of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists. What
I am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.

There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can afford
it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its not as
much cash out of pocket all at once. There may be some of that in this
series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a video titled,
"Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."

I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class with
the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can afford these
are some things you may be able to do with it." I am open to changing
my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a clear prejudice
against this machine starting out.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 5/6/2022 3:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:t51m17$mn8$1@dont-email.me...
> On 5/5/2022 12:15 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> Without trying one, the Sieg X2 appears on paper to be a good balance
>> of price and performance and a good candidate for your effort. I hope
>> it lives up to its promise and doesn't waste your time. I presented
>> the HF compact knee mill as a possible next step up from the X2. The
>> size is good, if not the implementation. Every metal part I designed
>> at Mitre or milled on Segway's Bridgeport could have been done on my
>> Clausing or its quivalent.  -jsw
>>
>
> I'm ok with it falling on its face (figuratively).  One of its KNOWN
> deficiencies would already drive me crazy if I didn't have a plan for
> that after its first ore second basic project.
>
> ------------------
>
> What was your second choice?
>

For this particular endeavor this was my first choice.

If I was getting a small machine just to have, could afford it, and it
wasn't to small for goal oriented choices I'd consider something in the
BF20 or BFR20L class. I think the Grizzly G0704 is very close to the
same machine. In addition to being an "okay" small machine there is a
huge base of serious users sharing information on these. Mods,
upgrades, & fixes.

However if I wanted the MOST flexibility for my dollar a small
Bridgeport or Bridgeport clone would be the choice to make. A larger
import bed mill might be more rigid (once its tweaked out) but its hard
to beat an articulating head knee mill for a huge range of possibility.
Like your Clausing.

When I decided I needed a manual mill for "everything else," in my shop
I bought one of the larger knee mills I could find that had all the
features I wanted. It was a toss up between the South Bend and Vectrax.
The Vectrax had #40 taper which is more rigid than R8, but I felt I
could buy R8 tooling cheaper in the long run. I knew I wouldn't always
have a pocket full of money when I needed a tool for a job. I could
have bought a smaller brand new Bridgeport cheaper, but I wanted a
beast. I find myself using it for second ops a lot more than I thought I
would too. Not just one off parts, tools, and repairs. I even used it
last year in some production parts. I sold 100 identical lead casting
molds to one company. I was able to keep the CNC machines doing the
primary work, and do all the hinge pins and handles on the Knee mill.
I've even started using it for making fixture plates for the smaller CNC
machines.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t53j6d$e0t$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On 5/6/2022 3:26 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>.....
If I was getting a small machine just to have, could afford it, and it
wasn't to small for goal oriented choices I'd consider something in the
BF20 or BFR20L class. I think the Grizzly G0704 is very close to the
same machine. In addition to being an "okay" small machine there is a
huge base of serious users sharing information on these. Mods,
upgrades, & fixes.

However if I wanted the MOST flexibility for my dollar a small
Bridgeport or Bridgeport clone would be the choice to make. A larger
import bed mill might be more rigid (once its tweaked out) but its hard
to beat an articulating head knee mill for a huge range of possibility.
Like your Clausing.

-----------------
I've had exactly one job that might justify a Bridgeport, drilling parallel
pivot holes 4' apart in the two lift arms for my bucket loader. The Clausing
handled it by clamping the two together and match-drilling the ends. I did
the bigger job of drilling 3/8" x 6" bolt holes for the center splice in the
assembled 16' gantry hoist beam with a Portalign.

In my opinion the Clausing and perhaps the newer versions are (and always
were?) too small and slow for a time-is-money production shop, unless they
want it for the occasional special tool/fixture, keyway or hole pattern for
which they lack a CAD drawing. It vibrates and chatters if I push it when
roughing out steel. It's fine for me because I'm not in a hurry. The 10"
South Bend is in the same class, their ad recommends it for short
production, tool-room and maintenance.

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
> On 5/5/2022 2:09 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>> On 5/5/2022 9:23 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/2022 9:05 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>>>>> I sold my first injection molds made on a tiny Taig CNC milling machine.
>>>>>> Compared to a half million dollar Haas mold maker it too was a POS.
>>>>>
>>>>> [rambling trimmed]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tangent trimmed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> IF... you hadn't dismissed the whole purpose of my post as irrelevant
>>> rambling I might have answered your questions. Even while I was
>>> deciding not to answer I had answers running through my mind. I did use
>>> the Taig for a long time, tore it apart several times for both good and
>>> bad reasons, and made a few of changes. I'm very familiar with it.
>>
>> Well, not interested in the video of a person that rambles on and on about
>> who knows what. They'll no doubt be really long and have no point.
>>
>> Have fun with them though.
> Have fun being superior in your own mind all by yourself.

You're right. To be superior I'd need some old timer story about buying a
"motor drill" and then upgrading to a fancier model. I've never though
about upgrading tools or anything like that before. Maybe you can make a
seven part video series about how this works.

On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
>
> That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of newbies
> who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really know what to
> do with it.  I sort of started that way.  My first "real" machine tool
> was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight.  My wife gave it to me for
> Christmas.  I piddled with it a bit mostly turning metal into chips.  I
> had little knowledge or skill about turning.  I think the first real
> useful real world project I made also came from my wife.  She suggested
> a bracket to mount on the back of a piece of medical equipment that
> would facilitate holding the consumable's dispensers without having to
> drill more holes in a wall and mount it separately.  I turned a couple
> dozen tiny little nail head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it
> worked very well.  The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of
> looking tacked up.  I'm not trying to SELL a machine.  Maybe if somebody
> had given me one for this project I might highlight its unique features
> if any over some other machines, but nobody did.  I paid full retail for
> one of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists.  What
> I am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.
>
> There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can afford
> it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its not as
> much cash out of pocket all at once.  There may be some of that in this
> series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a video titled,
> "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
>
> I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class with
> the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can afford these
> are some things you may be able to do with it."  I am open to changing
> my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a clear prejudice
> against this machine starting out.
>
>

I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .
--
Snag
My rights don't end
where your fear begins .

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:t53ui9$k4t$2@reader1.panix.com...

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
....

You're right. To be superior I'd need some old timer story about buying a
"motor drill" and then upgrading to a fancier model. I've never though
about upgrading tools or anything like that before. Maybe you can make a
seven part video series about how this works.

------------------

I also started by modifying a cheap drill press for X-Y milling. It was good
enough to machine the plastic electrical connector housings I needed for my
homebrew computer. Then I bought a crappy worn mini lathe and made a milling
attachment for it in night school.

Objectively the drill press and AA lathe were wastes of time and money but
those projects taught me a feel for speeds and feeds and the forces of
cutting metal, and that I liked doing it enough to invest in decent
machinery, my $1200 SB lathe and $800 Clausing mill.

Bob isn't pounding his chest to proclaim he's bigger and better than you, he
earned what he has and now generously shares it. Free yourself from the
zero-sum delusion that you can rise only by pulling down others. That's for
losers and communists.

"Snag" wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...

I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was
going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
"improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
mill .

----------
How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis was
the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening the
spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.

On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
>
>   I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was
> going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
> when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
> mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
> I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
> has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
> "improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
> mill .
>
> ----------
> How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis
> was the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening
> the spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
>

It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .
--
Snag
My rights don't end
where your fear begins .

"Snag" wrote in message news:t55qei$d2r$1@dont-email.me...

On 5/7/2022 6:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag" wrote in message news:t549ci$k5n$1@dont-email.me...
>
> I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was
> going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
> when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle . Same with the
> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
> mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
> I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
> has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
> "improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
> mill .
>
> ----------
> How accurately can you cut to height (Z axis) on the RF-45? The Z axis was
> the RF-31's worst failing. I could set it to 0.001" but tightening the
> spindle clamp shifted it inconsistently.
>

It cuts quite accurately . The clamp system puts no vertical force on
the spindle . I have more problems with the spindle "climbing" if I try
a cut without locking it . I have watched the Z readout on the DRO as I
tighten the clamp and it doesn't move at all .

-----------------------

The RF-45's power and working envelope are significantly better than my
mill, which I consider big enough.

On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
>>
>> That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
>> newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really know
>> what to do with it.  I sort of started that way.  My first "real"
>> machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight.  My wife gave
>> it to me for Christmas.  I piddled with it a bit mostly turning metal
>> into chips.  I had little knowledge or skill about turning.  I think
>> the first real useful real world project I made also came from my
>> wife.  She suggested a bracket to mount on the back of a piece of
>> medical equipment that would facilitate holding the consumable's
>> dispensers without having to drill more holes in a wall and mount it
>> separately.  I turned a couple dozen tiny little nail head shoulder
>> bolts as part of the project and it worked very well.  The dispenser
>> looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked up.  I'm not
>> trying to SELL a machine.  Maybe if somebody had given me one for this
>> project I might highlight its unique features if any over some other
>> machines, but nobody did.  I paid full retail for one of the most sold
>> (I think) small machines for non-machinists.  What I am trying to do
>> is help people do something with the machine they have.
>>
>> There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
>> afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
>> not as much cash out of pocket all at once.  There may be some of that
>> in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a video
>> titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
>>
>> I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
>> with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can afford
>> these are some things you may be able to do with it."  I am open to
>> changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a clear
>> prejudice against this machine starting out.
>>
>>
>
>   I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it was
> going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are times
> when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .

That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB. A
large thru spindle bore. At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.

Same with the
> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the various
> mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that one day
> I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither machine
> has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
> "improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
> mill .

These is an denigrating seeming attitude I see sometimes in machining
groups. "I don't NEED that," or "I never needed that." Sometimes its
just an observation, but most times it seems like either a little bit
sour grapes or a put down of somebody who, "Does need that."

Story time.
One time I showed a picture of a screw up I made with a round over bit.
Worse it was a $100 carbide round over bit. I thought it was amusing.
Nothing more. A couple of the manual machinists int he group were
quick to quip, "I don't need CNC to cut round overs." The fact is
neither do I. I cut my first round overs on an RF30. I didn't respond
defensively that I could do it manually too.

Instead I posted a short video of making a dozen t-nuts start to finish
on the KMB1 in the time it might take them to make one or two and said,
"Yep. You can makes these manually too."

I can do a lot with a little, but that doesn't mean I want to. It
doesn't mean I want to. I would much rather do it better and/or faster
so I can move on to the next project or go fishing.

Really the whole point though of this video series is to help people do
a lot with a little. Most of it will be aimed at beginners or even
total non-machinists. I hope anybody who isn't a master might learn
something even if they only watch it so they can make themselves feel
better by finding things I do to find fault with.

I found the same thing in motorcycles. People who believe and spout
off, "If it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle." "People who sneer
down their nose at Harley riders as "Slobs humping their rolling speed
bumps," and the poor guy who bought his first motorcycle that isn't as
fast as squid mobile or as comfortable as a pie to pie rider's bike.
I've owned a bunch of motorcycles over the years and more than a couple
Harley's, and honestly they have all had things that were good about
them. I'd ride any one of them again today if I still had them.

Well, I haven't owned as many mills as motorcycles. Not by a factor of
maybe three, but right now there are 9 milling machines in my shop. My
"home" shop that was never intended to be a machine shop at all when I
put up the building. Every single one of them has some value. I like to
think about what I CAN do with them and why I keep them rather than how
some other machine in the shop is better or how I don't need the
features on one because I can hack it out on one of the smaller less
featured machines.

Better or easier doesn't mean what you have is bad. Its just better or
easier. I can drill holes in concrete, brick, or rock with a 3lb hammer
and a star drill. If I have the time to spend I don't "need" a 1" rotary
spline drive rotary hammer to do the job. Just like if the bigger
contractor has a core drill it doesn't mean my rotary hammer is bad. It
just means he can do the job easier, and maybe faster.

You are right though. A round column mill does have a huge deficiency.
There are work arounds, and if that is what they have that's what they
have to use.

By the way, Thank you. I fully intend to credit you, and Jim and maybe
a couple others atleast in the introductory video as inspiration and for
helping me clarify my own motivations and goals for doing this. Almost
everybody in this conversation except one has been very helpful in that
regard.

--
Bob la Londe
Hobbyist, Hack, Wannabee Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real"
Machinist.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 5/7/2022 10:19 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
>> On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
>>>
>>> That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
>>> newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really
>>> know what to do with it.  I sort of started that way.  My first
>>> "real" machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight.  My
>>> wife gave it to me for Christmas.  I piddled with it a bit mostly
>>> turning metal into chips.  I had little knowledge or skill about
>>> turning.  I think the first real useful real world project I made
>>> also came from my wife.  She suggested a bracket to mount on the back
>>> of a piece of medical equipment that would facilitate holding the
>>> consumable's dispensers without having to drill more holes in a wall
>>> and mount it separately.  I turned a couple dozen tiny little nail
>>> head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very well.
>>> The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking tacked
>>> up.  I'm not trying to SELL a machine.  Maybe if somebody had given
>>> me one for this project I might highlight its unique features if any
>>> over some other machines, but nobody did.  I paid full retail for one
>>> of the most sold (I think) small machines for non-machinists.  What I
>>> am trying to do is help people do something with the machine they have.
>>>
>>> There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
>>> afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
>>> not as much cash out of pocket all at once.  There may be some of
>>> that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a
>>> video titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
>>>
>>> I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
>>> with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can
>>> afford these are some things you may be able to do with it."  I am
>>> open to changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a
>>> clear prejudice against this machine starting out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>    I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it
>> was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there are
>> times when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
>
> That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB.  A
> large thru spindle bore.  At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
> the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.

.... BIGGER through spindle more.

>
>  Same with the
>> RF45 clone bench-top mill . I did do a lot of research about the
>> various mill-drill machines , almost bought a RF31 ... But I knew that
>> one day I'd need to move the head in the middle of a job . And neither
>> machine has ever disappointed me . And neither machine has ever needed
>> "improvements" to do their job . Unless you count adding a DRO to the
>> mill .
>
> These is an denigrating seeming attitude I see sometimes in machining
> groups.  "I don't NEED that," or "I never needed that." Sometimes its
> just an observation, but most times it seems like either a little bit
> sour grapes or a put down of somebody who, "Does need that."
>
> Story time.
> One time I showed a picture of a screw up I made with a round over bit.
>  Worse it was a $100 carbide round over bit.  I thought it was amusing.
>  Nothing more.  A couple of the manual machinists int he group were
> quick to quip, "I don't need CNC to cut round overs."  The fact is
> neither do I.  I cut my first round overs on an RF30.  I didn't respond
> defensively that I could do it manually too.
>
> Instead I posted a short video of making a dozen t-nuts start to finish
> on the KMB1 in the time it might take them to make one or two and said,
> "Yep.  You can makes these manually too."
>
> I can do a lot with a little, but that doesn't mean I want to.  It
> doesn't mean I want to.  I would much rather do it better and/or faster
> so I can move on to the next project or go fishing.
>
> Really the whole point though of this video series is to help people do
> a lot with a little.  Most of it will be aimed at beginners or even
> total non-machinists.  I hope anybody who isn't a master might learn
> something even if they only watch it so they can make themselves feel
> better by finding things I do to find fault with.
>
> I found the same thing in motorcycles.  People who believe and spout
> off, "If it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle."  "People who sneer
> down their nose at Harley riders as "Slobs humping their rolling speed
> bumps," and the poor guy who bought his first motorcycle that isn't as
> fast as squid mobile or as comfortable as a pie to pie rider's bike.
> I've owned a bunch of motorcycles over the years and more than a couple
> Harley's, and honestly they have all had things that were good about
> them.  I'd ride any one of them again today if I still had them.
>
> Well, I haven't owned as many mills as motorcycles.  Not by a factor of
> maybe three, but right now there are 9 milling machines in my shop.  My
> "home" shop that was never intended to be a machine shop at all when I
> put up the building. Every single one of them has some value.  I like to
> think about what I CAN do with them and why I keep them rather than how
> some other machine in the shop is better or how I don't need the
> features on one because I can hack it out on one of the smaller less
> featured machines.
>
> Better or easier doesn't mean what you have is bad.  Its just better or
> easier.  I can drill holes in concrete, brick, or rock with a 3lb hammer
> and a star drill. If I have the time to spend I don't "need" a 1" rotary
> spline drive rotary hammer to do the job.  Just like if the bigger
> contractor has a core drill it doesn't mean my rotary hammer is bad.  It
> just means he can do the job easier, and maybe faster.
>
> You are right though.  A round column mill does have a huge deficiency.
>  There are work arounds, and if that is what they have that's what they
> have to use.
>
> By the way, Thank you.  I fully intend to credit you, and Jim and maybe
> a couple others atleast in the introductory video as inspiration and for
> helping me clarify my own motivations and goals for doing this.  Almost
> everybody in this conversation except one has been very helpful in that
> regard.
>
>
> --
> Bob la Londe
> Hobbyist, Hack, Wannabee Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a "Real"
> Machinist.
>

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 5/7/2022 10:21 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 5/7/2022 10:19 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 5/6/2022 4:01 PM, Snag wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2022 10:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>>> On 5/6/2022 6:22 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>>> The difficult question for a beginner is what to buy,
>>>>
>>>> That is a very difficult question, however there are a group of
>>>> newbies who buy a machine because its affordable and don't really
>>>> know what to do with it.  I sort of started that way.  My first
>>>> "real" machine tool was a 7x10 mini lathe from Harbor Freight.  My
>>>> wife gave it to me for Christmas.  I piddled with it a bit mostly
>>>> turning metal into chips.  I had little knowledge or skill about
>>>> turning.  I think the first real useful real world project I made
>>>> also came from my wife.  She suggested a bracket to mount on the
>>>> back of a piece of medical equipment that would facilitate holding
>>>> the consumable's dispensers without having to drill more holes in a
>>>> wall and mount it separately.  I turned a couple dozen tiny little
>>>> nail head shoulder bolts as part of the project and it worked very
>>>> well. The dispenser looked just like it belong instead of looking
>>>> tacked up.  I'm not trying to SELL a machine.  Maybe if somebody had
>>>> given me one for this project I might highlight its unique features
>>>> if any over some other machines, but nobody did.  I paid full retail
>>>> for one of the most sold (I think) small machines for
>>>> non-machinists.  What I am trying to do is help people do something
>>>> with the machine they have.
>>>>
>>>> There is also the tinkerer who buys this machine because they can
>>>> afford it, but plan to improve it a little bit at a time because its
>>>> not as much cash out of pocket all at once.  There may be some of
>>>> that in this series, but there are plenty of guys who have posted a
>>>> video titled, "Look at What I Did to Make My Machine Less of a POS."
>>>>
>>>> I expect I will recommend against buying any machine in this class
>>>> with the caveat that "if you already have it or its all you can
>>>> afford these are some things you may be able to do with it."  I am
>>>> open to changing my mind by the end of the series, but I do have a
>>>> clear prejudice against this machine starting out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>    I knew when I bought the Logan (PowrKraft) 10 x 31" lathe that it
>>> was going to do the kind of stuff I'm interested in - though there
>>> are times when I wish it had a bigger hole through the spindle .
>>
>> That was one of the big deciding factors for me with the PM1440ELB.  A
>> large thru spindle bore.  At thee time it was marginally cheaper than
>> the simialr size Grizzly, and had a through spindle bore.
>
> ... BIGGER through spindle more.
.... BIGGER through spindle BORE.

To many thoughts. Not enough time.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:t56cir$ria$1@dont-email.me...
>
> ... BIGGER through spindle more.
.... BIGGER through spindle BORE.

To many thoughts. Not enough time.

-----------------------
You need more bore. I saw a Monarch at an auction with a bore big enough to
turn 21" torpedos. No tailstock though, so I passed on it.
Or maybe you just need new glasses, that's it.