Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.

It can get irritating.

Is there some kind of fix?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
<scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>
>It can get irritating.
>
>Is there some kind of fix?

Maybe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
or even
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 10:48:03 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
><scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>
>>It can get irritating.
>>
>>Is there some kind of fix?

>Maybe
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
>or even
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI

The product featured in the 3rd URL is CRC 05080
"CRC® De-Squeak Conditioning Treatment for Brakes, 11.25 Wt Oz"
<https://www.crcindustries.com/products/de-squeak-8482-brake-conditioning-treatment-11-25-wt-oz.html>
The MSDS shows that it's:
<http://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--z4xT9qw8--/aq6oswg1aslbhb6ma2cc.pdf>

Chemical name CAS number %
n-butane 106-97-8 50 - 60
propane 74-98-6 20 - 30
solvent naphtha (petroleum), 64742-88-7 5 - 10
medium aliph.
amorphous silica 7631-86-9 1 - 3
residual oils (petroleum), 64742-62-7 1 - 3
solvent-dewaxed

Looks like it's mostly propellant and very little solvent. What
cleans the grease off the brakes is the naphtha solvent. Naphtha is a
general name that covers a wide variety of solvents. The CAS number
is interesting, but not very helpful:
<https://sor.epa.gov/sor_internet/registry/substreg/searchandretrieve/advancedsearch/externalSearch.do?p_type=CASNO&p_value=64742-88-7>
The amorphous silica is a friction enhancer:
<https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2003238700A/en>
<https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e0/c6/1d/b038aadc397622/US20140124310A1.pdf>
I don't know why there are some "residual oils" in the mix. The
amorphous silica increases friction while the residual oils reduce
friction?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

AK <scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>
> It can get irritating.
>
> Is there some kind of fix?
>

Essentially the pads touching the disk somehow probably rota slightly out
of true. Are few other ways but rota is the most normal.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:42:18 PM UTC-4, AK wrote:
> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>
> It can get irritating.
>
> Is there some kind of fix?

One of the pad is rubbing. The caliper is out of alignment, or you may have a stuck piston. The videos John posted should help.

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 5:08:46 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AK <scienti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
> >
> > It can get irritating.
> >
> > Is there some kind of fix?
> >
> Essentially the pads touching the disk somehow probably rota slightly out
> of true. Are few other ways but rota is the most normal.
>
> Roger Merriman

The rota...

Ah you from Bawsten Rawjah?

'Essentially the pads touching the disk somehow prawbably rotah slightly outta true. Theyah's uh few uthuh ways but rotah's the most nawmal.'

Theyah, fixed it faw yuz.

:)

:

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
> <scienti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
> >
> >It can get irritating.
> >
> >Is there some kind of fix?
> Maybe
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
> or even
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
Thanks, I will look at the videos.

I took the brakes off and cleaned them thoroughly.

There was some material on them that looked like grease.

Andy

On 8/25/2022 9:42 PM, AK wrote:
> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>
> It can get irritating.
>
> Is there some kind of fix?
>

Noise is pad on rotor, so either a piston is not returning
well or if it's a cable brake the cable is sticky.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/25/2022 11:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 10:48:03 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
>> <scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>
>>> It can get irritating.
>>>
>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>
>> Maybe
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
>> or even
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
>
> The product featured in the 3rd URL is CRC 05080
> "CRC® De-Squeak Conditioning Treatment for Brakes, 11.25 Wt Oz"
> <https://www.crcindustries.com/products/de-squeak-8482-brake-conditioning-treatment-11-25-wt-oz.html>
> The MSDS shows that it's:
> <http://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--z4xT9qw8--/aq6oswg1aslbhb6ma2cc.pdf>
>
> Chemical name CAS number %
> n-butane 106-97-8 50 - 60
> propane 74-98-6 20 - 30
> solvent naphtha (petroleum), 64742-88-7 5 - 10
> medium aliph.
> amorphous silica 7631-86-9 1 - 3
> residual oils (petroleum), 64742-62-7 1 - 3
> solvent-dewaxed
>
> Looks like it's mostly propellant and very little solvent. What
> cleans the grease off the brakes is the naphtha solvent. Naphtha is a
> general name that covers a wide variety of solvents. The CAS number
> is interesting, but not very helpful:
> <https://sor.epa.gov/sor_internet/registry/substreg/searchandretrieve/advancedsearch/externalSearch.do?p_type=CASNO&p_value=64742-88-7>
> The amorphous silica is a friction enhancer:
> <https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2003238700A/en>
> <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e0/c6/1d/b038aadc397622/US20140124310A1.pdf>
> I don't know why there are some "residual oils" in the mix. The
> amorphous silica increases friction while the residual oils reduce
> friction?
>
>
>

Doesn't seem very different from brake cleaner which is
ubiquitous and cheap. First result in a search for 'msds
brake cleaner':

https://www.deler.no/userfiles/file/MSDS%20Disc%20Brake%20Cleaner%20%28AEROSOL%29.pdf

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 5:20:27 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
> > <scienti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
> > >
> > >It can get irritating.
> > >
> > >Is there some kind of fix?
> > Maybe
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
> > or even
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> Thanks, I will look at the videos.
>
> I took the brakes off and cleaned them thoroughly.
>
> There was some material on them that looked like grease.

Andy, if you're riding an MTB and applying the brakes hard fairly often you are going to just have to resign yourself to readjusting them often and possibly replacing the disk fairly often since if they are badly overheated they will go out of true.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 07:45:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/25/2022 11:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 10:48:03 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
>>> <scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>
>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>
>>> Maybe
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
>>> or even
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
>>
>> The product featured in the 3rd URL is CRC 05080
>> "CRC® De-Squeak Conditioning Treatment for Brakes, 11.25 Wt Oz"
>> <https://www.crcindustries.com/products/de-squeak-8482-brake-conditioning-treatment-11-25-wt-oz.html>
>> The MSDS shows that it's:
>> <http://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--z4xT9qw8--/aq6oswg1aslbhb6ma2cc.pdf>
>>
>> Chemical name CAS number %
>> n-butane 106-97-8 50 - 60
>> propane 74-98-6 20 - 30
>> solvent naphtha (petroleum), 64742-88-7 5 - 10
>> medium aliph.
>> amorphous silica 7631-86-9 1 - 3
>> residual oils (petroleum), 64742-62-7 1 - 3
>> solvent-dewaxed
>>
>> Looks like it's mostly propellant and very little solvent. What
>> cleans the grease off the brakes is the naphtha solvent. Naphtha is a
>> general name that covers a wide variety of solvents. The CAS number
>> is interesting, but not very helpful:
>> <https://sor.epa.gov/sor_internet/registry/substreg/searchandretrieve/advancedsearch/externalSearch.do?p_type=CASNO&p_value=64742-88-7>
>> The amorphous silica is a friction enhancer:
>> <https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2003238700A/en>
>> <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e0/c6/1d/b038aadc397622/US20140124310A1.pdf>
>> I don't know why there are some "residual oils" in the mix. The
>> amorphous silica increases friction while the residual oils reduce
>> friction?

>Doesn't seem very different from brake cleaner which is
>ubiquitous and cheap. First result in a search for 'msds
>brake cleaner':
>https://www.deler.no/userfiles/file/MSDS%20Disc%20Brake%20Cleaner%20%28AEROSOL%29.pdf

Butane 10%-15%
Propane 10%-15%
Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light 60%-70%

Two big differences:
1. You get about 6 times as much solvent with brake cleaner. The
De-Squeak stuff is mostly gas propellants.
2. Brake cleaner does not contain amorphous silica friction enhancer,
which I assume is to improve stopping performance, but might be just
an abrasive cleaner.

If I were buying spray disc brake cleaner for bicycle brakes, I would
go with the brake cleaner.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>
> It can get irritating.
>
> Is there some kind of fix?

I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 5:20:27 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
>>> <scienti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>
>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>> Maybe
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
>>> or even
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>> Thanks, I will look at the videos.
>>
>> I took the brakes off and cleaned them thoroughly.
>>
>> There was some material on them that looked like grease.
>
> Andy, if you're riding an MTB and applying the brakes hard fairly often
> you are going to just have to resign yourself to readjusting them often
> and possibly replacing the disk fairly often since if they are badly
> overheated they will go out of true.
>
That’s not my experience generally MTB have had disks for decades and as
such the technology is fairly solid, and plus MTBer are more comfortable
with them.

And to be honest disks seem to suffer from light use, and fiddling than
being used, not to say you can’t cook a rotor but do have to really push it
hard.

My Gravel bike probably gets pushed harder ie closest to its limit as it’s
only got 160mm rotors and used off road on steep stuff can start to warm
up, though well within its limits. On road it’s totally non fussed. GCN did
a video recently attempting to cook disks (on road)

Linky https://youtu.be/q3FCLdiVGWc

The MTB with similar level of technology ie finned pads and what not
doesn’t get warm with my XC/trail type riding where as the older brakes did
occasionally didn’t fade though did get toasty on longer steep stuff, never
remotely faded but certainly got warm.

On the whole folks who have issues with disks are either fiddling and/or
being terribly gentle with them so they don’t bed in etc.

The only bike that is noisy is my commute beastie that probably picks up
muck/oils from the roads and will occasionally groan for until it’s ground
it off.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>
>> It can get irritating.
>>
>> Is there some kind of fix?
>
> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>
To be honest it’s not particularly helpful joke!

And equally I did far more maintenance with rims than disk brakes where I
change pads and that’s about it. With rims I did need to adjust things
occasionally.

Roger Merriman

On 8/26/2022 11:48 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>
>>> It can get irritating.
>>>
>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>
>> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>>
> To be honest it’s not particularly helpful joke!

See? :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 9:35:01 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 5:20:27 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> > > On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
> > > <scienti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
> > > >
> > > >It can get irritating.
> > > >
> > > >Is there some kind of fix?
> > > Maybe
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
> > > or even
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > John B.
> > Thanks, I will look at the videos.
> >
> > I took the brakes off and cleaned them thoroughly.
> >
> > There was some material on them that looked like grease.
> Andy, if you're riding an MTB and applying the brakes hard fairly often you are going to just have to resign yourself to readjusting them often and possibly replacing the disk fairly often since if they are badly overheated they will go out of true.

When I cleaned the disc brakes, they had been on about 4 years.

I don't use the brakes hard very much. Mostly street riding.

The disk is still flat but there are some gouges in it.

I guess from dirt in the pads.

Here is a pic.

https://imgur.com/a/0k9wswM

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/26/2022 11:48 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>
>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>>
>>> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>>>
>> To be honest it’s not particularly helpful joke!
>
> See? :-)
>
>

Heh!

Roger Merriman

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 07:49:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 07:45:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 8/25/2022 11:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 10:48:03 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT), AK
>>>> <scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there some kind of fix?

>>>> Maybe
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMk-AiuyfYk
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08ePb4_C0JA
>>>> or even
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upduohrKxTI
>>>
>>> The product featured in the 3rd URL is CRC 05080
>>> "CRC® De-Squeak Conditioning Treatment for Brakes, 11.25 Wt Oz"
>>> <https://www.crcindustries.com/products/de-squeak-8482-brake-conditioning-treatment-11-25-wt-oz.html>
>>> The MSDS shows that it's:
>>> <http://images.salsify.com/image/upload/s--z4xT9qw8--/aq6oswg1aslbhb6ma2cc.pdf>
>>>
>>> Chemical name CAS number %
>>> n-butane 106-97-8 50 - 60
>>> propane 74-98-6 20 - 30
>>> solvent naphtha (petroleum), 64742-88-7 5 - 10
>>> medium aliph.
>>> amorphous silica 7631-86-9 1 - 3
>>> residual oils (petroleum), 64742-62-7 1 - 3
>>> solvent-dewaxed
>>>
>>> Looks like it's mostly propellant and very little solvent. What
>>> cleans the grease off the brakes is the naphtha solvent. Naphtha is a
>>> general name that covers a wide variety of solvents. The CAS number
>>> is interesting, but not very helpful:
>>> <https://sor.epa.gov/sor_internet/registry/substreg/searchandretrieve/advancedsearch/externalSearch.do?p_type=CASNO&p_value=64742-88-7>
>>> The amorphous silica is a friction enhancer:
>>> <https://patents.google.com/patent/JP2003238700A/en>
>>> <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e0/c6/1d/b038aadc397622/US20140124310A1.pdf>
>>> I don't know why there are some "residual oils" in the mix. The
>>> amorphous silica increases friction while the residual oils reduce
>>> friction?

>>Doesn't seem very different from brake cleaner which is
>>ubiquitous and cheap. First result in a search for 'msds
>>brake cleaner':
>>https://www.deler.no/userfiles/file/MSDS%20Disc%20Brake%20Cleaner%20%28AEROSOL%29.pdf

>Butane 10%-15%
>Propane 10%-15%
>Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light 60%-70%
>
>Two big differences:
>1. You get about 6 times as much solvent with brake cleaner. The
>De-Squeak stuff is mostly gas propellants.
>2. Brake cleaner does not contain amorphous silica friction enhancer,
>which I assume is to improve stopping performance, but might be just
>an abrasive cleaner.
>
>If I were buying spray disc brake cleaner for bicycle brakes, I would
>go with the brake cleaner.

I just survived yet another a 2.5 mile trudge, mostly in the hot sun,
<https://www.strava.com/athletes/103870441>
with a friend who knows automotive and railroad brakes. I asked about
the amorphous silica. He said that it's basically an abrasive that
they put in brake cleaner to de-glaze the pads in both disc and drum
auto brakes. The hardness of the abrasive is harder than rubber and
softer than stainless steel, so that it will de-glaze the rubber pads,
but not score the stainless steel disc.

Adding a mild abrasive seems like a good idea if you're going to mix
your own disc brake cleaner concoction. I don't know why it's missing
from the Adhestick brake cleaner, but my best guess(tm) is that the
manufacturer expects the bicycle owner to either buy new pads, or
lightly sand the pads to remove any glaze.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 10:57:11 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
> > Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
> >
> > It can get irritating.
> >
> > Is there some kind of fix?
> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Not attacking, but think about it for just a moment, placing your curmudgeonly biases aside:
If someone doesn't have the mechanical acumen to figure out how to make a disc brake run silently, do you really think they going to fare any better wrt the subtle adjustments necessary with cantilevers such they don't screech like a raptor in battle?

My personal experience is that discs are much easier to set up and maintain.. In the 6 years I've been riding discs, I can state I've had exactly one incident with the disc squealing, repaired by simply spraying with brake cleaner. The fiddling with canti pads is tedious, no fiddling with disc pads. Aligning the calipers is infinitely quicker and easier than aligning the pads on cantis, with the vertical alignment and toe-in, then gawd forbid if you change wheels which may have a different rim width or brake track geometry. Replacing disc pads takes literally one minute, with no need for an alignment process (if you've set them up properly to begin with). REplacing wheels of any configuration that will fit into the frame or fork requires _no_ concern over brake alignment. Want to slap a 1" roadwheel in place of the 4" beast on your fat bike? Go nuts!, no issues at all with the brakes (except in cases of excessive wear, and even then is vastly easier and quicker than dealing with cantilevers.)

I know for a fact I'm no where near alone in this experience.

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 10:57:11 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>
>>> It can get irritating.
>>>
>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Not attacking, but think about it for just a moment, placing your
> curmudgeonly biases aside:
> If someone doesn't have the mechanical
> acumen to figure out how to make a disc brake run silently, do you really
> think they going to fare any better wrt the subtle adjustments necessary
> with cantilevers such they don't screech like a raptor in battle?
>
> My personal experience is that discs are much easier to set up and
> maintain. In the 6 years I've been riding discs, I can state I've had
> exactly one incident with the disc squealing, repaired by simply spraying
> with brake cleaner. The fiddling with canti pads is tedious, no fiddling
> with disc pads. Aligning the calipers is infinitely quicker and easier
> than aligning the pads on cantis, with the vertical alignment and toe-in,
> then gawd forbid if you change wheels which may have a different rim
> width or brake track geometry. Replacing disc pads takes literally one
> minute, with no need for an alignment process (if you've set them up
> properly to begin with). REplacing wheels of any configuration that will
> fit into the frame or fork requires _no_ concern over brake alignment.
> Want to slap a 1" roadwheel in place of the 4" beast on your fat bike? Go
> nuts!, no issues at all with the brakes (except in cases of excessive
> wear, and even then is vastly easier and quicker than dealing with cantilevers.)
>
> I know for a fact I'm no where near alone in this experience.
>
This! I do far less maintenance on the disks which generally I ignore as
they just work. And since my commute is a gritty affair I even get longer
life out of disk vs rim pads. Particularly in winter just got eaten.

Roger Merriman.

On 8/28/2022 7:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 10:57:11 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>
>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>
>>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Not attacking, but think about it for just a moment, placing your
>> curmudgeonly biases aside:
>> If someone doesn't have the mechanical
>> acumen to figure out how to make a disc brake run silently, do you really
>> think they going to fare any better wrt the subtle adjustments necessary
>> with cantilevers such they don't screech like a raptor in battle?
>>
>> My personal experience is that discs are much easier to set up and
>> maintain. In the 6 years I've been riding discs, I can state I've had
>> exactly one incident with the disc squealing, repaired by simply spraying
>> with brake cleaner. The fiddling with canti pads is tedious, no fiddling
>> with disc pads. Aligning the calipers is infinitely quicker and easier
>> than aligning the pads on cantis, with the vertical alignment and toe-in,
>> then gawd forbid if you change wheels which may have a different rim
>> width or brake track geometry. Replacing disc pads takes literally one
>> minute, with no need for an alignment process (if you've set them up
>> properly to begin with). REplacing wheels of any configuration that will
>> fit into the frame or fork requires _no_ concern over brake alignment.
>> Want to slap a 1" roadwheel in place of the 4" beast on your fat bike? Go
>> nuts!, no issues at all with the brakes (except in cases of excessive
>> wear, and even then is vastly easier and quicker than dealing with cantilevers.)
>>
>> I know for a fact I'm no where near alone in this experience.
>>
> This! I do far less maintenance on the disks which generally I ignore as
> they just work.

But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
rim brakes. They too "just work."

When there is a complaint about rim brakes, it's almost always one of
two issues: Noise and slight dragging, often if a wheel is out of true.
These days the noise issue seems confined to cantilevers of one type or
another. At least, I haven't heard caliper brakes squeal for a long,
long time. And I've never heard a rim brake squeal as loud as the discs
on the bike belonging to our neighbor's friend! That was like a siren!

It's true that cantilevers are somewhat fussy to set up. They have lots
of degrees of freedom! And coincidentally, about three days ago I was
asked to quiet the direct pull cantis on a dear friend's bike. She knew
they needed some toe-in, but didn't feel competent to do it herself.
(But hey, she's a poet!) The fix took me maybe 15 minutes, with no
agonizing about degreasing a disc, abrading disc pads, re-mounting a
caliper body or anything that was not visually obvious.

Regarding the multiple degrees of freedom, I can conceive of a canti
design that would separate those, so (say) toe-in could be adjusted
while (say) radial position was not lost, etc. But that would add
complexity. Manufacturers choose simplicity because the adjustments are
only rarely needed and really aren't terribly difficult if one has a
certain minimum level of mechanical skill. Advantages vs. disadvantages.

The other issue with the poet's brakes was an occasional slight scraping
because one arm was not releasing as far as the other. She didn't know
about the tiny screws that adjust that, and had been getting by with
reaching down and pushing the brake arm away from the rim when the shoe
scraped. But that points out an advantage of rim brakes: Problems are
visible, even to poets. And with caliper (as opposed to canti) rim
brakes, solutions are usually visibly obvious as well.

Again, disc brake fans harp on all the terrible disadvantages of rim
brakes. But if you go back ten years in this group's archives, those rim
brake problems did not seem to exist! Somehow, somehow, people worried
about much more important things. You know, "frames going soft" or "hubs
hanging from spokes" or "seat post aerodynamics" etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 7:26 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 10:57:11 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2022 10:42 PM, AK wrote:
>>>>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>>>>
>>>>> It can get irritating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>>> I could say "switch to rim brakes" but then I'd get attacked! ;-)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Not attacking, but think about it for just a moment, placing your
>>> curmudgeonly biases aside:
>>> If someone doesn't have the mechanical
>>> acumen to figure out how to make a disc brake run silently, do you really
>>> think they going to fare any better wrt the subtle adjustments necessary
>>> with cantilevers such they don't screech like a raptor in battle?
>>>
>>> My personal experience is that discs are much easier to set up and
>>> maintain. In the 6 years I've been riding discs, I can state I've had
>>> exactly one incident with the disc squealing, repaired by simply spraying
>>> with brake cleaner. The fiddling with canti pads is tedious, no fiddling
>>> with disc pads. Aligning the calipers is infinitely quicker and easier
>>> than aligning the pads on cantis, with the vertical alignment and toe-in,
>>> then gawd forbid if you change wheels which may have a different rim
>>> width or brake track geometry. Replacing disc pads takes literally one
>>> minute, with no need for an alignment process (if you've set them up
>>> properly to begin with). REplacing wheels of any configuration that will
>>> fit into the frame or fork requires _no_ concern over brake alignment.
>>> Want to slap a 1" roadwheel in place of the 4" beast on your fat bike? Go
>>> nuts!, no issues at all with the brakes (except in cases of excessive
>>> wear, and even then is vastly easier and quicker than dealing with cantilevers.)
>>>
>>> I know for a fact I'm no where near alone in this experience.
>>>
>> This! I do far less maintenance on the disks which generally I ignore as
>> they just work.
>
> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>
That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.

If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.

> When there is a complaint about rim brakes, it's almost always one of
> two issues: Noise and slight dragging, often if a wheel is out of true.
> These days the noise issue seems confined to cantilevers of one type or
> another. At least, I haven't heard caliper brakes squeal for a long,
> long time. And I've never heard a rim brake squeal as loud as the discs
> on the bike belonging to our neighbor's friend! That was like a siren!

Not bothered by sounds my brakes be that rim of disk where fairly quiet, in
both cases only noisy if gone though load of muck until they have cleared
the rim/disk.
>
> It's true that cantilevers are somewhat fussy to set up. They have lots
> of degrees of freedom! And coincidentally, about three days ago I was
> asked to quiet the direct pull cantis on a dear friend's bike. She knew
> they needed some toe-in, but didn't feel competent to do it herself.
> (But hey, she's a poet!) The fix took me maybe 15 minutes, with no
> agonizing about degreasing a disc, abrading disc pads, re-mounting a
> caliper body or anything that was not visually obvious.

>
> Regarding the multiple degrees of freedom, I can conceive of a canti
> design that would separate those, so (say) toe-in could be adjusted
> while (say) radial position was not lost, etc. But that would add
> complexity. Manufacturers choose simplicity because the adjustments are
> only rarely needed and really aren't terribly difficult if one has a
> certain minimum level of mechanical skill. Advantages vs. disadvantages.
>

> The other issue with the poet's brakes was an occasional slight scraping
> because one arm was not releasing as far as the other. She didn't know
> about the tiny screws that adjust that, and had been getting by with
> reaching down and pushing the brake arm away from the rim when the shoe
> scraped. But that points out an advantage of rim brakes: Problems are
> visible, even to poets. And with caliper (as opposed to canti) rim
> brakes, solutions are usually visibly obvious as well.

With disks generally you don’t touch, eventually will need bleeding etc,
but that’s literally years. Pads pop out put new in, disks can get dinged
particularly if one travels a lot, though they are fairly cheap. Needing to
readjust the calliper isn’t particularly normal done at installing and then
left alone.
>
> Again, disc brake fans harp on all the terrible disadvantages of rim
> brakes. But if you go back ten years in this group's archives, those rim
> brake problems did not seem to exist! Somehow, somehow, people worried
> about much more important things. You know, "frames going soft" or "hubs
> hanging from spokes" or "seat post aerodynamics" etc.
>
This group is far from representative of road cyclists, I suspect I’m the
youngest! And I’m approaching 50!

Folks years back did ask about disks I can recall various different folks
at cafe stops chat about why doesn’t road bikes have disks etc.

Roger Merriman

On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>
> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>
> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.

In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.

>> Again, disc brake fans harp on all the terrible disadvantages of rim
>> brakes. But if you go back ten years in this group's archives, those rim
>> brake problems did not seem to exist! Somehow, somehow, people worried
>> about much more important things. You know, "frames going soft" or "hubs
>> hanging from spokes" or "seat post aerodynamics" etc.
>>
> This group is far from representative of road cyclists, I suspect I’m the
> youngest! And I’m approaching 50!

That doesn't change my point. This group has been around for decades. 30
years ago the contributors were much younger. If they complained here
about rim brakes it must have been only very rarely. I certainly can't
remember every post, but I don't recall any discussion saying "Bike
brakes are crap, we need a completely new technology."

The closest I recall to complaints were in Wilson's book _Bicycle
Science_. In his chapter on bicycle braking he mentioned two
disadvantages: reduced wet weather braking, and "wear BY the rim" (my
emphasis), not wear OF the rim. He was referring to the brake shoes
wearing, and complained that some brake shoes last only 2000 miles. I
wonder what he's say about current disc pad life?

But in early editions of that book, while he briefly mentions disc
brakes, those mentions are in passing. One or more editions mention an
advanced caliper design for a supposedly better rim brake - a design not
as elegant as (say) modern dual pivot brakes. The design was never
adopted. Why? Because there was no significant demand for something much
better than existing rim brakes.

In my mind, the situation is very similar to that of bike helmets and
super-fancy bike lanes. Before marketing kicked into high gear, ordinary
rim brakes and ordinary hats were almost always considered to be just
fine while riding on ordinary roads. Once marketing kicked in, riding as
people had done for 80+ years was portrayed as horrendously unwise. Even
though the vast majority who continued to do it still had no major
problems.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>>
>> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
>> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>>
>> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
>> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
>> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
>
> In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
> all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
> be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
> cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
> qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.

Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the first
warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.

And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
be fairly committed.
>
>>> Again, disc brake fans harp on all the terrible disadvantages of rim
>>> brakes. But if you go back ten years in this group's archives, those rim
>>> brake problems did not seem to exist! Somehow, somehow, people worried
>>> about much more important things. You know, "frames going soft" or "hubs
>>> hanging from spokes" or "seat post aerodynamics" etc.
>>>
>> This group is far from representative of road cyclists, I suspect I’m the
>> youngest! And I’m approaching 50!
>
> That doesn't change my point. This group has been around for decades. 30
> years ago the contributors were much younger. If they complained here
> about rim brakes it must have been only very rarely. I certainly can't
> remember every post, but I don't recall any discussion saying "Bike
> brakes are crap, we need a completely new technology."

Usenet was never mainstream it was always a rather self selecting group, by
now it’s fairly moribund! But it was never Facebook etc!
>
> The closest I recall to complaints were in Wilson's book _Bicycle
> Science_. In his chapter on bicycle braking he mentioned two
> disadvantages: reduced wet weather braking, and "wear BY the rim" (my
> emphasis), not wear OF the rim. He was referring to the brake shoes
> wearing, and complained that some brake shoes last only 2000 miles. I
> wonder what he's say about current disc pad life?
>
> But in early editions of that book, while he briefly mentions disc
> brakes, those mentions are in passing. One or more editions mention an
> advanced caliper design for a supposedly better rim brake - a design not
> as elegant as (say) modern dual pivot brakes. The design was never
> adopted. Why? Because there was no significant demand for something much
> better than existing rim brakes.
>
> In my mind, the situation is very similar to that of bike helmets and
> super-fancy bike lanes. Before marketing kicked into high gear, ordinary
> rim brakes and ordinary hats were almost always considered to be just
> fine while riding on ordinary roads. Once marketing kicked in, riding as
> people had done for 80+ years was portrayed as horrendously unwise. Even
> though the vast majority who continued to do it still had no major
> problems.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 1:55:51 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
> >>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
> >>>
> >> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
> >> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
> >>
> >> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
> >> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
> >> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
> >
> > In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
> > all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
> > be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
> > cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
> > qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.
> Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the first
> warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
> was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
> visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.
>
> And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
> be fairly committed.
> >
> >>> Again, disc brake fans harp on all the terrible disadvantages of rim
> >>> brakes. But if you go back ten years in this group's archives, those rim
> >>> brake problems did not seem to exist! Somehow, somehow, people worried
> >>> about much more important things. You know, "frames going soft" or "hubs
> >>> hanging from spokes" or "seat post aerodynamics" etc.
> >>>
> >> This group is far from representative of road cyclists, I suspect I’m the
> >> youngest! And I’m approaching 50!
> >
> > That doesn't change my point. This group has been around for decades. 30
> > years ago the contributors were much younger. If they complained here
> > about rim brakes it must have been only very rarely. I certainly can't
> > remember every post, but I don't recall any discussion saying "Bike
> > brakes are crap, we need a completely new technology."
> Usenet was never mainstream it was always a rather self selecting group, by
> now it’s fairly moribund! But it was never Facebook etc!
> >
> > The closest I recall to complaints were in Wilson's book _Bicycle
> > Science_. In his chapter on bicycle braking he mentioned two
> > disadvantages: reduced wet weather braking, and "wear BY the rim" (my
> > emphasis), not wear OF the rim. He was referring to the brake shoes
> > wearing, and complained that some brake shoes last only 2000 miles. I
> > wonder what he's say about current disc pad life?
> >
> > But in early editions of that book, while he briefly mentions disc
> > brakes, those mentions are in passing. One or more editions mention an
> > advanced caliper design for a supposedly better rim brake - a design not
> > as elegant as (say) modern dual pivot brakes. The design was never
> > adopted. Why? Because there was no significant demand for something much
> > better than existing rim brakes.
> >
> > In my mind, the situation is very similar to that of bike helmets and
> > super-fancy bike lanes. Before marketing kicked into high gear, ordinary
> > rim brakes and ordinary hats were almost always considered to be just
> > fine while riding on ordinary roads. Once marketing kicked in, riding as
> > people had done for 80+ years was portrayed as horrendously unwise. Even
> > though the vast majority who continued to do it still had no major
> > problems.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Roger Merriman

In the bay area we have wet years and dry. Several years ago in a particularly wet year it was ride in the rain or don't ride. This was usually because half way through a ride it would start raining contrary to predictions and you'd be stuck riding in the wet. I never once found normal rim brakes to be insufficient. I did find it necessary to apply the brakes lightly before they would be required to clean the water from the braking surfaces but that is because I am normally cautious and other riders didn't seem to be having any problems. Perhaps disk brakes improve wet weather braking but watching the Vuelta this year where the Rain in Spain was falling mostly in the mountains, The pros didn't seem to be having any less problems in the descents from previous years.

Now perhaps they are more convenient for commuters who don't want to actually think about their riding but I dislike disks quite intensely on road bikes because they are far too easy to lock. Because the traction differences between road bikes and MTB's I will say that I had a Trek HiFi 29er that had disks that I liked but I never noticed the braking to be either better or worse but more the same.