On 8/28/2022 4:55 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>>>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>>>
>>> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
>>> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>>>
>>> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
>>> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
>>> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
>>
>> In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
>> all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
>> be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
>> cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
>> qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.
>
> Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the first
> warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
> was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
> visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.
>
> And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
> be fairly committed.

That's fine. How long have people been commuting by bike in London? Or
better yet, in Netherlands and Denmark?

The answer: Long, long before road bike disc brakes. Yet demands for
completely different braking technology were vanishingly rare.

Until, that is, the marketing triggered the fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 22:13:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/28/2022 4:55 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>>>>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>>>>
>>>> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
>>>> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>>>>
>>>> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
>>>> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
>>>> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
>>>
>>> In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
>>> all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
>>> be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
>>> cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
>>> qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.
>>
>> Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the first
>> warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
>> was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
>> visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.
>>
>> And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
>> be fairly committed.
>
>That's fine. How long have people been commuting by bike in London? Or
>better yet, in Netherlands and Denmark?
>
>The answer: Long, long before road bike disc brakes. Yet demands for
>completely different braking technology were vanishingly rare.
>
>Until, that is, the marketing triggered the fashion.

I think you are getting carried away with this "marketing" thing. Even
a quick look shows that various methods of expanding sales has been
practiced, in one form or another, probably from at least ancient
Egyptian times.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/26/2022 2:08 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AK <scientist77017@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sometimes my front disc brakes on my mountain bike "sing" when I am NOT applying them.
>>
>> It can get irritating.
>>
>> Is there some kind of fix?
>>
>
> Essentially the pads touching the disk somehow probably rota slightly out
> of true. Are few other ways but rota is the most normal.
>
> Roger Merriman

Or the piston not retracting all the way. I see this issue more with
mechanical disc brakes though.

With rim brakes, if the wheel is not true you can adjust the distance
between the pads and the rim until you can true the wheel properly,
though many people never fix the root cause. I'm sure we've all seen
some horribly out of true wheels.

One advantage/disadvantage of disc brakes is that they work so well even
on wheel that's out of true, that many riders never even notice how out
of true their wheels are.

The advantages of disc brakes on bicycles are enormous, even more that
their advantages of motor vehicles, and they've come a long way since
the 1975 JC Penney/Huffy ten speed with a Shimano rear disc brake
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k10233DdFi0&t=123s>. And OMG, no one on
that cross-country promotional ride is wearing a helmet.

On 8/28/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> I think you are getting carried away with this "marketing" thing. Even
> a quick look shows that various methods of expanding sales has been
> practiced, in one form or another, probably from at least ancient
> Egyptian times.

And on bicycles, as well as on other products, marketing only takes you
so far.

We've seen some clunky features on bikes that did not gain much traction
and disappeared (mostly). The inventor would find some rather obscure
problem and design a product to address the issue.

Interbike used to always have some weird stuff, from the hub with a pump
inside so you could inflate your tires while riding, to the two-wheel
drive bicycle using a flexible cable drive shaft between the front and
rear wheels. Don't forget refrigerated shoes. It seemed like at every
show someone had invented a new anti-lock braking system, whether for
rim brakes or disc brakes.

Am 29.08.2022 um 04:13 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 8/28/2022 4:55 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>>>>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>>>>
>>>> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks
>>>> who live
>>>> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>>>>
>>>> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc,
>>>> been
>>>> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks
>>>> have
>>>> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
>>>
>>> In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
>>> all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
>>> be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
>>> cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
>>> qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.
>>
>> Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the
>> first
>> warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
>> was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
>> visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.
>>
>> And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
>> be fairly committed.
>
> That's fine. How long have people been commuting by bike in London? Or
> better yet, in Netherlands and Denmark?
>
> The answer: Long, long before road bike disc brakes. Yet demands for
> completely different braking technology were vanishingly rare.

Dutch bicycles usually had drum brakes (or "one drum brake on the rear
wheel is good enough given the flat nature of Randstad") and were
traditionally cycling at or below 10 mph so their requirement for
quality braking was minimal.

On 8/29/2022 5:16 AM, sms wrote:
>
>
> We've seen some clunky features on bikes that did not gain much traction
> and disappeared (mostly). The inventor would find some rather obscure
> problem and design a product to address the issue.

That's true. On r.b.tech we've seen people touting weirdnesses like
battery powered electric horns on bikes, electric turn signals, marine
strobes as taillights, oddball coffee cup holders to clamp on
handlebars, horizontal flippy flags etc. All have disappeared (mostly) -
or rather, been adopted by only one ex-mayor.

One difference with disc brakes is that it was always easier to buy a
bicycle _without_ those gimmicks than to find one with them; or to find
a place selling them.

Disc brakes, OTOH, are being pushed strenuously by manufacturers. More
and more road bikes are coming equipped with discs, whether the buyer
prefers them or not. Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
choice is usually built into the frame.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/29/2022 4:53 AM, sms wrote:
> OMG, no one on
> that cross-country promotional ride is wearing a helmet.

And somehow, somehow, they were just fine!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>choice is usually built into the frame.

I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
missing the brake levers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
from view.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>> choice is usually built into the frame.
>
> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> missing the brake levers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> from view.
>

“In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:03:09 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> >> choice is usually built into the frame.
> >
> > I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> > bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> > brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> > missing the brake levers:
> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> > It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> > necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> > That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> > advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> > of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> > from view.
> >
> “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”

Bob Roll was saying on the Vuelta coverage yesterday that the crash that took out at least one of the pro's was due to brake fade of the disks on his bike. the rider slipped under the barrier and apparently had too great an injury to continue. But perhaps I got that wrong with so many crashes.

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:19:46 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>
> Disc brakes, OTOH, are being pushed strenuously by manufacturers. More
> and more road bikes are coming equipped with discs, whether the buyer
> prefers them or not. Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> choice is usually built into the frame.

You wanted standardization? Here you have it in the frames: flat mount disk brakes. No more center bolt, direct mount rim brake nonsense or studs for V brakes or worse cantilever crap. If I as a frame manufacturer had to choose one frame standard it would be for disks. I'm for choice but from a manufacturer point of view it is a (big) hassle, hence the push towards.....disks. I'm still amazed that car manufacturers still have to put up with left hand drive and right hand drive cars. 90% of the people are right-handed and have to put up with operating most of the car controls with the 'clumsy' left hand. Weird.

Lou

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 9:10:20 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:03:09 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
> > Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> > >> choice is usually built into the frame.
> > >
> > > I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> > > bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> > > brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> > > missing the brake levers:
> > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> > > It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> > > necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> > > That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> > > advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> > > of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> > > from view.
> > >
> > “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
> Bob Roll was saying on the Vuelta coverage yesterday that the crash that took out at least one of the pro's was due to brake fade of the disks on his bike. the rider slipped under the barrier and apparently had too great an injury to continue. But perhaps I got that wrong with so many crashes.

Oh man, what a nonsense.

Lou

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 19:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>>> choice is usually built into the frame.
>>
>> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
>> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
>> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
>> missing the brake levers:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
>> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
>> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
>> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
>> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
>> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
>> from view.

>“In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”

Ummm... That's not going to work. The technology will stop the
bicycle using various types of brakes. A brake that stops the
bicycle, but has the rider continue moving (flying?) forward, will
likely not be marketable. The idea is to stop both the bicycle and
the rider. Perhaps by adding seat belts.

Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and displays of actual
bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which have been
removed or were never installed. If they do show the pedals and
cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For example:
<https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
<https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because a buyer
might think they were included? Or, is there a better explanation (or
conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/29/2022 2:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>>> choice is usually built into the frame.
>>
>> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
>> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
>> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
>> missing the brake levers:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
>> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
>> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
>> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
>> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
>> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
>> from view.
>>
>
> “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
>

Nice!

and shiftless as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/29/2022 2:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 19:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>>>> choice is usually built into the frame.
>>>
>>> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
>>> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
>>> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
>>> missing the brake levers:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
>>> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
>>> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
>>> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
>>> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
>>> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
>>> from view.
>
>> “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
>
> Ummm... That's not going to work. The technology will stop the
> bicycle using various types of brakes. A brake that stops the
> bicycle, but has the rider continue moving (flying?) forward, will
> likely not be marketable. The idea is to stop both the bicycle and
> the rider. Perhaps by adding seat belts.
>
> Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and displays of actual
> bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which have been
> removed or were never installed. If they do show the pedals and
> cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For example:
> <https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
> <https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
> Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because a buyer
> might think they were included? Or, is there a better explanation (or
> conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?
>
>

At and above some price point, the customer variance in
pedals is chaotic. Platform, toeclip, Look KEO, SPD, SPDSL,
Speedplay, ATAC and more. Manufacturers gave up a long time ago.

That goes in both directions, BTW.

When I was young, cars on new car lots had a hole in the
dash for a radio of your choice. Now the 'car radio' is an
integral part of the car's computer control and monitoring
systems.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/29/2022 3:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and displays of actual
> bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which have been
> removed or were never installed. If they do show the pedals and
> cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For example:
> <https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
> <https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
> Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because a buyer
> might think they were included? Or, is there a better explanation (or
> conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?

In days of yore, pedals were pedals. Even if a rider was a
super-sophisticate who used toe clips, straps and cleats instead of,
say, rubber block pedals, there was broad compatibility between high
class pedals. Heck, those of us who rarely used cleats could ride any
pedal. We could ride in almost any shoes we owned! And manufacturers
could show pedals on bikes, or even have them installed on bikes in bike
shops.

Then came "clipless" pedals that you "clip in" to. That unleashed
creativity, plus the all-important opportunity to generate a dozen
different "standards." (As Andrew has said, standards are great! That's
why there are so many of them!)

So if you were a Look fan, Time pedals did you no good, and Crank
Brothers were worse! If you had clipless on your mountain bike, your
mountain bike shoes might not work on your road bike.

But everyone was convinced their personal choice was best. It was almost
as religious as one's choice of chain lube.

So if a manufacturer showed a particular pedal on a bike, he might
offend potential customers whose pedal religion was different.
Manufacturers decided to take no sides. They went way beyond pedal
agnosticism, into pedal atheism. "Pedals? There are no pedals (on our
bikes)!" And bonus (for the manufacturer): the weight of the bike was a
few ounces less!

It's not so bad if you're just looking at pictures. You can imagine (or
Photoshop?) your favorite pedals in place. But if you're actually
shopping for a high-budget bike, you'd better bring your own pedals and
your own shoes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 8/29/2022 2:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>>>> choice is usually built into the frame.
>>>
>>> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
>>> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
>>> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
>>> missing the brake levers:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
>>> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
>>> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
>>> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
>>> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
>>> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
>>> from view.
>>>
>>
>> “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
>>
>
>
> Nice!
>
> and shiftless as well.
>

3x9 seemed to be the peak of shifty cyclists. Note that we have now
backtracked to ONLY 12 gears.

For a short time, my buddy had a SRAM three speed hub with a 9 speed
cassette and a front triple. 81 speeds was probably more than enough.

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:25:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 9:10:20 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 12:03:09 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
> > > Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> > > >> choice is usually built into the frame.
> > > >
> > > > I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> > > > bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> > > > brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> > > > missing the brake levers:
> > > > <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> > > > It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> > > > necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> > > > That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> > > > advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> > > > of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> > > > from view.
> > > >
> > > “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
> > Bob Roll was saying on the Vuelta coverage yesterday that the crash that took out at least one of the pro's was due to brake fade of the disks on his bike. the rider slipped under the barrier and apparently had too great an injury to continue. But perhaps I got that wrong with so many crashes.
> Oh man, what a nonsense.

That crash was on a descent, there were no other people around him and it wasn't from loss of traction. He came around a turn and was too fast and not only went under the barrier himself but too out his teammate. His teammate was so disgusted he got up and rode off rather than help #1 catch up.

I have had at least four bikes with disks and most of them were Shimano Hydraulics. My problems with them were not fade but intense stopping power that was very difficult to control. This brake fade problem has been reported by among other people Chris Froome so it is unlikely that you can disagree with him on any technical grounds.

As for how they get brake fade you've got me. The boiling point of the brake fluids used are so high (260C) it is extremely unlikely that they vaporized. I did see ONE picture with a street disk extremely distorted but I don't think that would cause fade as much as the disk locking in the caliper. But the crash did occur so there was some sort of reason for it.

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 1:01:31 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 8/29/2022 2:02 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
> >> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> >>>> choice is usually built into the frame.
> >>>
> >>> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> >>> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> >>> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> >>> missing the brake levers:
> >>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> >>> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> >>> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> >>> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> >>> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> >>> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> >>> from view.
> >>>
> >>
> >> “In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
> >>
> >
> >
> > Nice!
> >
> > and shiftless as well.
> >
> 3x9 seemed to be the peak of shifty cyclists. Note that we have now
> backtracked to ONLY 12 gears.
>
> For a short time, my buddy had a SRAM three speed hub with a 9 speed
> cassette and a front triple. 81 speeds was probably more than enough.

Well, triples didn't have more gears as much as a compound low. I'm selling one right now.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 8:29 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I think you are getting carried away with this "marketing" thing. Even
>> a quick look shows that various methods of expanding sales has been
>> practiced, in one form or another, probably from at least ancient
>> Egyptian times.
>
> And on bicycles, as well as on other products, marketing only takes you
> so far.
>
> We've seen some clunky features on bikes that did not gain much traction
> and disappeared (mostly). The inventor would find some rather obscure
> problem and design a product to address the issue.
>
> Interbike used to always have some weird stuff, from the hub with a pump
> inside so you could inflate your tires while riding, to the two-wheel
> drive bicycle using a flexible cable drive shaft between the front and
> rear wheels. Don't forget refrigerated shoes. It seemed like at every
> show someone had invented a new anti-lock braking system, whether for
> rim brakes or disc brakes.
>
>
Indeed there are lots of stuff that just flopped!

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/28/2022 4:55 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/28/2022 2:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But to be fair, it's very unusual for a road cyclist to complain about
>>>>> rim brakes. They too "just work."
>>>>>
>>>> That depends on the road cyclist, for Sunday best types and folks who live
>>>> in very dry places the advantages are rather reduced.
>>>>
>>>> If your an all weather commuter or ride the roads though winter etc, been
>>>> fairly obvious that rim brakes where lacking. Particularly if folks have
>>>> experience of MTB which have had disks for decades.
>>>
>>> In places where I've lived and visited, it's very unusual to encounter
>>> all weather commuters or those who ride through winter. (And I used to
>>> be one of the latter.) That means even if every one of those unusual
>>> cyclists complained about their rim brakes, complaints would still
>>> qualify as unusual. Almost all bicyclists did not complain.
>>
>> Huge numbers around London and always has been, that’s not to say the first
>> warn dry day get loads more but there is a significant numbers and always
>> was. Go to Richmond park during mid winter as the sun sets and it’s
>> visible, as you can see the stream of SW commuters returning home.
>>
>> And london is big ie these folks are doing 30/40 miles per day so need to
>> be fairly committed.
>
> That's fine. How long have people been commuting by bike in London? Or
> better yet, in Netherlands and Denmark?
>
> The answer: Long, long before road bike disc brakes. Yet demands for
> completely different braking technology were vanishingly rare.
>
> Until, that is, the marketing triggered the fashion.
>
>
And these are the types ie relatively fast long distance commute folks who
for decades have looked at MTB and said that would be so much better.

You can see to a extent this in action in that the club riders have been
the hold outs, there places such as Regent’s Park/Richmond Park still
plenty of folks lapping with rim brakes, but the commute folks they wanted
disks, and as such most do now.

Roger Merriman

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 3:27:16 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 19:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> >>> choice is usually built into the frame.
> >>
> >> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> >> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> >> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> >> missing the brake levers:
> >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> >> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> >> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> >> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> >> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> >> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> >> from view.
>
> >“In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
> Ummm... That's not going to work. The technology will stop the
> bicycle using various types of brakes. A brake that stops the
> bicycle, but has the rider continue moving (flying?) forward, will
> likely not be marketable. The idea is to stop both the bicycle and
> the rider. Perhaps by adding seat belts.
>
> Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and displays of actual
> bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which have been
> removed or were never installed. If they do show the pedals and
> cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For example:
> <https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
> <https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
> Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because a buyer
> might think they were included? Or, is there a better explanation (or
> conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

When I worked a big bicycle shop and we did the photography for the bikes, the shop owners want the cranks set parallel to the chainstay as the owners said that was most ascetically pleasing..

A lot of bikes are sold without pedals because many bicyclist have their own pedal preference.

Cheers

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 2:25:45 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 3:27:16 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 19:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
> > >>> choice is usually built into the frame.
> > >>
> > >> I was going to unload some links of concept and science fiction
> > >> bicycles into RBT, when I realized that none of theme show visible
> > >> brakes of any type. Besides the brakes, the renderings are also
> > >> missing the brake levers:
> > >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> > >> It's almost like brakes are considered an afterthought, option or
> > >> necessary evil that might ruin the aesthetics of a concept bicycle.
> > >> That's much like cords and cables are removed from computer
> > >> advertisements. I must therefore reluctantly conclude that the future
> > >> of bicycle brakes are in hub drum brakes, which can easily be hidden
> > >> from view.
> >
> > >“In the future, bicyclists will be unstoppable!”
> > Ummm... That's not going to work. The technology will stop the
> > bicycle using various types of brakes. A brake that stops the
> > bicycle, but has the rider continue moving (flying?) forward, will
> > likely not be marketable. The idea is to stop both the bicycle and
> > the rider. Perhaps by adding seat belts.
> >
> > Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and displays of actual
> > bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which have been
> > removed or were never installed. If they do show the pedals and
> > cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For example:
> > <https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
> > <https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
> > Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because a buyer
> > might think they were included? Or, is there a better explanation (or
> > conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> When I worked a big bicycle shop and we did the photography for the bikes, the shop owners want the cranks set parallel to the chainstay as the owners said that was most ascetically pleasing..
>
> A lot of bikes are sold without pedals because many bicyclist have their own pedal preference.
I would say that most bicyclists have their own pedal preference. I have sold maybe 5 bikes in the last year and every one of them including the last one had the pedals up for sale on Craigslist. At the moment I sold the Douglas with Keo Blade pedals on them. Now that is a good pedal that doesn't pull out, is easy to enter and has bearings that last forever. What pedal system could he possibly have that he prefers to the Blades? Most of the other pedal systems pull out regularly. I didn't buy the Look Delta and then the Keo because I didn't have many problems with pedals before I switched over..

On 8/29/2022 2:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/29/2022 3:27 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> > Topic Drift: I've noticed that many catalogs and
>> displays of actual
>> bicycles show most everything except the pedals, which
>> have been
>> removed or were never installed. If they do show the
>> pedals and
>> cranks, they are positioned for minimum exposure. For
>> example:
>> <https://www.summitbicycles.com/articles/new-bike-releases-pg632.htm>
>>
>> <https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/domane/c/B221/>
>>
>> Are pedals considered an option and are not shown because
>> a buyer
>> might think they were included? Or, is there a better
>> explanation (or
>> conspiracy theory) that explains the missing pedals?
>
> In days of yore, pedals were pedals. Even if a rider was a
> super-sophisticate who used toe clips, straps and cleats
> instead of, say, rubber block pedals, there was broad
> compatibility between high class pedals. Heck, those of us
> who rarely used cleats could ride any pedal. We could ride
> in almost any shoes we owned! And manufacturers could show
> pedals on bikes, or even have them installed on bikes in
> bike shops.
>
> Then came "clipless" pedals that you "clip in" to. That
> unleashed creativity, plus the all-important opportunity to
> generate a dozen different "standards." (As Andrew has said,
> standards are great! That's why there are so many of them!)
>
> So if you were a Look fan, Time pedals did you no good, and
> Crank Brothers were worse! If you had clipless on your
> mountain bike, your mountain bike shoes might not work on
> your road bike.
>
> But everyone was convinced their personal choice was best.
> It was almost as religious as one's choice of chain lube.
>
> So if a manufacturer showed a particular pedal on a bike, he
> might offend potential customers whose pedal religion was
> different. Manufacturers decided to take no sides. They went
> way beyond pedal agnosticism, into pedal atheism. "Pedals?
> There are no pedals (on our bikes)!" And bonus (for the
> manufacturer): the weight of the bike was a few ounces less!
>
> It's not so bad if you're just looking at pictures. You can
> imagine (or Photoshop?) your favorite pedals in place. But
> if you're actually shopping for a high-budget bike, you'd
> better bring your own pedals and your own shoes.
>

Yes, the manufacturer has no upside to it.

There may be some fashion or caprice component to pedal
choice, but mostly rider criteria vary. Road pedals are much
easier to engage/release but hell for walking and they do
not suffer mud well. Road pedal/shoe systems are lighter
than other formats.

MTB pedals engage/disengage reliably when crud encrusted and
the designs allow walkable treads.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:19:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/29/2022 5:16 AM, sms wrote:
>>
>>
>> We've seen some clunky features on bikes that did not gain much traction
>> and disappeared (mostly). The inventor would find some rather obscure
>> problem and design a product to address the issue.
>
>That's true. On r.b.tech we've seen people touting weirdnesses like
>battery powered electric horns on bikes, electric turn signals, marine
>strobes as taillights, oddball coffee cup holders to clamp on
>handlebars, horizontal flippy flags etc. All have disappeared (mostly) -
>or rather, been adopted by only one ex-mayor.
>
>One difference with disc brakes is that it was always easier to buy a
>bicycle _without_ those gimmicks than to find one with them; or to find
>a place selling them.
>
>Disc brakes, OTOH, are being pushed strenuously by manufacturers. More
>and more road bikes are coming equipped with discs, whether the buyer
>prefers them or not. Given the realities of disc mounting, that lack of
>choice is usually built into the frame.

I think I've mentioned this before, but very noticeably all the
"supermarket" bikes, the ones sold in the "toy" sections of large
stores, seem to have disc (or is it disk?) brakes these days... I'm
seeing bicycles as cheap as US$70 with disc brakes.

I would imagine that cost of manufacture enters into the equation in
some manner.
--
Cheers,

John B.