Paging Bob La Londe...

In case you don't keep up with HardAir Magazine... link to the latest
monthly teaser email:

https://mailchi.mp/hardairmagazine/04wyzqfp6d-8481586

An article on "Tuning The Benjamin Marauder For Maximum Power" might be
of interest besides some of the new stuff coming out:

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/benjamin-marauder-tuning-the-thing-almost-all-people-do-wrong/

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/31/2023 11:06 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> Paging Bob La Londe...
>
> In case you don't keep up with HardAir Magazine... link to the latest
> monthly teaser email:
>
> https://mailchi.mp/hardairmagazine/04wyzqfp6d-8481586
>
> An article on "Tuning The Benjamin Marauder For Maximum Power" might be
> of interest besides some of the new stuff coming out:
>
> https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/benjamin-marauder-tuning-the-thing-almost-all-people-do-wrong/
>
>

Thank you. I had not seen that. I will give it a more through read
later. I was aware the .25 Marauder is capable (with a heavier
projectile) of up around 100FPE bringing it into promotional round .22LR
power ranges. I tuned mine for consistent shooting at a lower power of
46FPE for 26-28 shots (with a bottle conversion) per charge as opposed
to the stock 6-10 at 30ish FPE. I even saw a video of a guy taking a
deer from a stand with a super tune .25 Marauder some years back. Very
short range, but it worked. We are legally allowed to take big game
with airguns here in Arizona, but the last time I reviewd the regs there
was a .30 cal minimum bore size.

I picked the power range I did to give me close to point blank range
accuracy from 20 yards to a little over 50 yards for all the vermin and
small game I am likely to take with it.

My long range (for me) airgun is a Chinese made BAM B-50 which is a copy
of a European made Daystate Huntsman, in .22. Shooting Kentucky windage
on a calm cool day its a 135 yard gun. Nowhere near as powerful, and if
I recall I was shooting 34 inches of hold over at 135 yards last time I
took it to the range, but I was doing it with "tin can" Crosman 14.3
grain hollow points. Not match pellets. Not even premium pellets. I
do keep it top off charged with an SCBA bottle when using it the range
though. Shots at 1018 to 1053 FPS group under 2 inches at that distance
if I do my part. I've never done anything to tune that gun for
efficiency or power, but I do have a regulator for it in a bag
somewhere. Maybe someday I'll dial it in.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On 3/31/2023 11:57 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/31/2023 11:06 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> Paging Bob La Londe...
>>
>> In case you don't keep up with HardAir Magazine... link to the latest
>> monthly teaser email:
>>
>> https://mailchi.mp/hardairmagazine/04wyzqfp6d-8481586
>>
>> An article on "Tuning The Benjamin Marauder For Maximum Power" might be
>> of interest besides some of the new stuff coming out:
>>
>> https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/benjamin-marauder-tuning-the-thing-almost-all-people-do-wrong/
>>
>>
>
> Thank you.  I had not seen that.  I will give it a more through read
> later.  I was aware the .25 Marauder is capable (with a heavier
> projectile) of up around 100FPE bringing it into promotional round .22LR
> power ranges.  I tuned mine for consistent shooting at a lower power of
> 46FPE for 26-28 shots (with a bottle conversion) per charge as opposed
> to the stock 6-10 at 30ish FPE. I even saw a video of a guy taking a
> deer from a stand with a super tune .25 Marauder some years back.  Very
> short range, but it worked.  We are legally allowed to take big game
> with airguns here in Arizona, but the last time I reviewd the regs there
> was a .30 cal minimum bore size.
>
> I picked the power range I did to give me close to point blank range
> accuracy from 20 yards to a little over 50 yards for all the vermin and
> small game I am likely to take with it.
>
> My long range (for me) airgun is a Chinese made BAM B-50 which is a copy
> of a European made Daystate Huntsman, in .22.  Shooting Kentucky windage
> on a calm cool day its a 135 yard gun.  Nowhere near as powerful, and if
> I recall I was shooting 34 inches of hold over at 135 yards last time I
> took it to the range, but I was doing it with "tin can" Crosman 14.3
> grain hollow points.  Not match pellets.  Not even premium pellets.  I
> do keep it top off charged with an SCBA bottle when using it the range
> though.  Shots at 1018 to 1053 FPS group under 2 inches at that distance
> if I do my part.  I've never done anything to tune that gun for
> efficiency or power, but I do have a regulator for it in a bag
> somewhere.  Maybe someday I'll dial it in.
>
>
>
>

I just read the article. Its a pretty good beginner article on basic
tuning.

I do have a Chronograph, and when I was saying number of shots I was
referring to full power shots before elevation changes significantly due
to falling velocity. I tune to a bell curve. So my first shot is at
the bottom of my acceptable velocity range. As pressure drops the valve
opens easier and velocity increases to my peak velocity. Then as
pressure drops further velocity starts to drop again until it reaches my
minimum acceptable velocity velocity. At short range I could just keep
shooting for a while.

With a regulated gun often you have a nearly flat velocity curve.
Sometimes when pressure drops and the gun comes off the regulator you
actually get an increase in velocity for a few shots before it starts to
fall off depending on exactly how its tuned. You can usually adjust for
more shots or more power in those cases, but at that point you can spend
a lot of time chasing numbers. On the other hand sitting in your back
yard all afternoon ventilating paper can be a lot of fun.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 12:11:55 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>I just read the article. Its a pretty good beginner article on basic
>tuning.

Thought you'd understand it better than me seeing you've tinkered with
one ;)

FX has really been raising the bar in design of late. I'm a month
behind in my magazine reading but I see this Panthera in 12 ft/lbs was
going to be reviewed. Radical look with the Buddy bottle on the back
end. Up to 107 ft/lbs in .25

https://fxairguns.com/rifles/the-panthera/

I mostly read about them. I don't shoot enough to warrant the outlay
for a PCP and way to fill it. Springers can set for months on end and
work fine next time I need to use one...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/31/2023 12:51 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 12:11:55 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I just read the article. Its a pretty good beginner article on basic
>> tuning.
>
> Thought you'd understand it better than me seeing you've tinkered with
> one ;)
>
> FX has really been raising the bar in design of late. I'm a month
> behind in my magazine reading but I see this Panthera in 12 ft/lbs was
> going to be reviewed. Radical look with the Buddy bottle on the back
> end. Up to 107 ft/lbs in .25
>
> https://fxairguns.com/rifles/the-panthera/
>
> I mostly read about them. I don't shoot enough to warrant the outlay
> for a PCP and way to fill it. Springers can set for months on end and
> work fine next time I need to use one...
>

I've only owned a few springers, but I found them hard to shoot
accurately. Yes, I learned the artillery hold and all that. I've got a
"magnum" springer from Hatson in .22 and it flat jumps when you shoot
it, but the jump is from the piston, not the firing recoil and its
weird. The point of impact drifts over time. They also tend to be
pretty hard on scopes. There are high dollar high power rifle scopes
that will self destruct when mounted on a springer. I have a Benjamin
Nitro Piston and it really can't be sighted in at all. I've also got a
little Chinese springer of unknown vintage and power that needs new
seals. I may fix it up just because it was my Uncle's.

For a simple gun I'm more prone to like a multi pump pneumatic over a
springer. I recently resealed my one owner 1981 Crosman Model 1 1st
version, and when I was working on it I realized... its tunable. Not
for the average shooter, but for somebody who is willing to get into the
guts of it. I may well do something with that. I think just a slight
bump in hammer spring weight could give it a boost in power since it
does not fully dump the reservoir/valve assembly when pumped to the full
ten pumps. Its got a lot of plastic bits in the action though so I may
choose to do nothing with it.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:55:21 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>For a simple gun I'm more prone to like a multi pump pneumatic over a
>springer. I recently resealed my one owner 1981 Crosman Model 1 1st
>version, and when I was working on it I realized... its tunable. Not
>for the average shooter, but for somebody who is willing to get into the
>guts of it. I may well do something with that. I think just a slight
>bump in hammer spring weight could give it a boost in power since it
>does not fully dump the reservoir/valve assembly when pumped to the full
>ten pumps. Its got a lot of plastic bits in the action though so I may
>choose to do nothing with it.

Might want to search on this, see what's already been done. It didn't
interest me at the time... but I've come across "full dump" while doing
research on other Crosman guns.

Their recent Model 362 has garnered all sorts of mod info. This was a
HUGE thread on modding the 362 from a couple years ago. Tedious to read
but a lot of good leads and links were in it...

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=eb8bc78059d4520d63be71e4219fb5c3&topic=182911.0

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 3/31/2023 2:29 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:55:21 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> For a simple gun I'm more prone to like a multi pump pneumatic over a
>> springer. I recently resealed my one owner 1981 Crosman Model 1 1st
>> version, and when I was working on it I realized... its tunable. Not
>> for the average shooter, but for somebody who is willing to get into the
>> guts of it. I may well do something with that. I think just a slight
>> bump in hammer spring weight could give it a boost in power since it
>> does not fully dump the reservoir/valve assembly when pumped to the full
>> ten pumps. Its got a lot of plastic bits in the action though so I may
>> choose to do nothing with it.
>
> Might want to search on this, see what's already been done. It didn't
> interest me at the time... but I've come across "full dump" while doing
> research on other Crosman guns.
>
> Their recent Model 362 has garnered all sorts of mod info. This was a
> HUGE thread on modding the 362 from a couple years ago. Tedious to read
> but a lot of good leads and links were in it...
>
> https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=eb8bc78059d4520d63be71e4219fb5c3&topic=182911.0
>

I have not looked inside a 362, but if it has more zamak and steel
instead of plastic it might be a good candidate for improvement. A
multi pump pneumatic functions almost identically to a PCP. It just has
a very tiny plenum. If it doesn't do a full plenum dump you can often
get a smidgeon more power by reducing the strength of the valve spring
or increasing the force of the hammer. Generally that's done with a
stronger hammer spring or additional preload, but playing with stroke
length (of the hammer) or the weight of the hammer can also have an
affect. With a Marauder you can adjust the position of the striking
face on the front of the hammer, tighten the hammer spring or adjust the
air flow without modifying the gun. Those basic adjustments are built
in. I've often found more improvement by changing the hammer, hammer
spring, opening up the physical valve port and improving the internal
flow of the valve. A lot of those things are harder on a pumper,
because its designed around a particular fixed set of everything, but
its not impossible.

FYI: I am persona nongrata on GTA. I refuse to accept "because I said
so" as an answer and I think EZMAN604 (the admin) is a total douche bag.
They have a culture of dogma there that not only refuses to allow
growth but stifles legal and lawful discussion because of the fears
voiced by old company owners who are long since dead and have been
legally dis-proven. They often treat the opinions of ancient airgunners
as messianic proclamations. Before EZMAN604 took over and turned GTA
into his personal fiefdom it was a great forum. "In my opinion" He
would give the admin/owner of Hobby Machinist a run for gold at the
Olympic douchery games. Yeah, the same guy who once made public posts
using my name on his forum.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 09:51:42 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>FYI: I am persona nongrata on GTA. I refuse to accept "because I said
>so" as an answer and I think EZMAN604 (the admin) is a total douche bag.

There seems to be a lot of that behavior with stuff like this.
Elon is putting on a good show playing the douche too...

I'm not signed up there, just came across that thread while doing
a general web search. At least I can read most stuff as an anonymous
user ;-)

There's a guy named Jim Tyler that writes a tech article for Airgun
World most months. He takes a more scientific approach testing mods
to springers. A larger port is not necessarily better. Nor are stronger
springs. Really complicated stuff in a springer...

In hindsight... I wish I'd skipped getting the Hatsan 155 and coughed
up more money for a Weihrauch HW97 or HW98 in .25. From what I've
experienced and read, a Hatsan is like a kit, thrown together really
rough. If you want to take the time to tear it all down, replace seals,
poor hardware, remove burrs and rough edges... you can make a pretty
decent gun with one :)

Same thing with the Crosman 362. Per that thread... they're putting
Benjamin Discovery (disco) .177 barrels on them along with the steel
action block that has scope rails on it. If they'd make a 361 (.177)
I'd be a lot more apt to get buy one...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/2/2023 10:45 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 09:51:42 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> FYI: I am persona nongrata on GTA. I refuse to accept "because I said
>> so" as an answer and I think EZMAN604 (the admin) is a total douche bag.
>
> There seems to be a lot of that behavior with stuff like this.
> Elon is putting on a good show playing the douche too...
>
> I'm not signed up there, just came across that thread while doing
> a general web search. At least I can read most stuff as an anonymous
> user ;-)
>
> There's a guy named Jim Tyler that writes a tech article for Airgun
> World most months. He takes a more scientific approach testing mods
> to springers. A larger port is not necessarily better. Nor are stronger
> springs. Really complicated stuff in a springer...
>
> In hindsight... I wish I'd skipped getting the Hatsan 155 and coughed
> up more money for a Weihrauch HW97 or HW98 in .25. From what I've
> experienced and read, a Hatsan is like a kit, thrown together really
> rough. If you want to take the time to tear it all down, replace seals,
> poor hardware, remove burrs and rough edges... you can make a pretty
> decent gun with one :)
>
> Same thing with the Crosman 362. Per that thread... they're putting
> Benjamin Discovery (disco) .177 barrels on them along with the steel
> action block that has scope rails on it. If they'd make a 361 (.177)
> I'd be a lot more apt to get buy one...
>

I'm not all that into springers. I own a few, but... I've had all but
one of my PCPs apart and have a bit of an understanding of how they work.

The easiest way to get more power out of a springer is dieseling. That
being said I can't imagine a compression detonation is good for the gun.
From what I have read its mostly about piston speed for permanent
improvements. Leaks can be an issue, but everything happens so fast it
would have to be a massive leak.

For me if I need to kill something quietly I just pick up the .25
Marauder and take the shot.

The one I have not taken apart is a .177 Sentry. Not all that accurate.
Plenty powerful for a .177. Supposed to be externally toolless
adjustable, but I was not able to really figure out how that it really
has as much affect as it claims. I might spend a day or two on it
someday, but the .177 Marauder is a better plinker tuned to about 20FPE
for 120-140 full power shots internally regulated. It has an extension,
but I bet if I removed the extension it would still drop about 80 shots
at full tuned power. I could bump it up a little. This is one that
velocity climbs when it comes off the regulator. I keep it where it is
so it has similar ballistics to the .25 at 900-920 FPS roughly with 10.5
grain round nose.

As to charging. Probably the easiest might be to drop a couple bills on
a Nitrogen tank. SCBA bottles seem like a good idea, but after so many
years they are not legal to transport. End of life. Nobody will
recertify for longer life except for fire departments. I do have a
couple bottles out of cert and a couple compressors. Some guys take
their bottles to dive shops to be filled. Paint ball shops will also
fill sometimes, but often they will only fill small bottles. I have
heard of guys getting local fire departments to fill SCBA bottles for
them, but I asked a friend who was (at that time) a local fire captain,
and he said he couldn't because it counted against the filter life on
his compressors. I think if I was starting on PCP today I would go
with the Nitrogen bottle and get a boost pump to keep using it for a
while after it dropped below 3000 PSI. Nitrogen is cheap. The gas
provider takes care of hydro certifications even on my owner bottles.

I did hand pump for my first two PCP guns though. Its a good workout.
Not as bad as you might think if your gun is dialed in. Fill it up and
then go shoot/hunt for a while. If you have an extra high pressure PCP
(4500 PSI instead of 3000) I do not think hand pumping is an options. I
had one for a while. A Kalibri Cricket. Great gun. It was far
superior to the Marauders, but it cost. I got nearly as much as I paid
for it when I sold it.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 11:30:42 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>I did hand pump for my first two PCP guns though. Its a good workout.
>Not as bad as you might think if your gun is dialed in. Fill it up and
>then go shoot/hunt for a while. If you have an extra high pressure PCP
>(4500 PSI instead of 3000) I do not think hand pumping is an options. I
>had one for a while. A Kalibri Cricket. Great gun. It was far
>superior to the Marauders, but it cost. I got nearly as much as I paid
>for it when I sold it.

Those Cricket guns get good praise from the UK guys too👍 They've come
out with several more models in recent years. Problem with some of
those is getting parts. I ran into that with the Hatsan. The gas ram
died maybe 6 months after getting it. I'd only shot it twice. Only
source is Hatsan USA and they would only sell one if you ship the
gun in for repair (warranty). Cost me ~$40 to ship it. It's really
long, 48 inches and 10 lbs. Haven't checked but I'd be really surprised
if the replacement piston still works today...

I've got welding bottles that need cert, not something I plan on
messing with when their empty. Just let it go, craps too complicated
nowadays for us piss-ants...

Humidity is a huge issue here. If I touch something metal in the warmer
months it needs an oily rag wipe down afterwards or it'll rust. I run a
small 2hp 20gal compressor to blow off my mower after each use. It runs
for maybe 10 minutes for the job. I'll drain maybe 2-3 tablespoons of
water from the tank afterwards. I've seen the pictures of guys
Marauders that haven't kept their air dry and are now junk. Just not
worth the hassle for me to mess with in this climate. I kinda envy
where you're located and what you can get away with ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/2/2023 12:15 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 11:30:42 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I did hand pump for my first two PCP guns though. Its a good workout.
>> Not as bad as you might think if your gun is dialed in. Fill it up and
>> then go shoot/hunt for a while. If you have an extra high pressure PCP
>> (4500 PSI instead of 3000) I do not think hand pumping is an options. I
>> had one for a while. A Kalibri Cricket. Great gun. It was far
>> superior to the Marauders, but it cost. I got nearly as much as I paid
>> for it when I sold it.
>
> Those Cricket guns get good praise from the UK guys too👍 They've come
> out with several more models in recent years. Problem with some of
> those is getting parts. I ran into that with the Hatsan. The gas ram
> died maybe 6 months after getting it. I'd only shot it twice. Only
> source is Hatsan USA and they would only sell one if you ship the
> gun in for repair (warranty). Cost me ~$40 to ship it. It's really
> long, 48 inches and 10 lbs. Haven't checked but I'd be really surprised
> if the replacement piston still works today...
>
> I've got welding bottles that need cert, not something I plan on
> messing with when their empty. Just let it go, craps too complicated
> nowadays for us piss-ants...
>
> Humidity is a huge issue here. If I touch something metal in the warmer
> months it needs an oily rag wipe down afterwards or it'll rust. I run a
> small 2hp 20gal compressor to blow off my mower after each use. It runs
> for maybe 10 minutes for the job. I'll drain maybe 2-3 tablespoons of
> water from the tank afterwards. I've seen the pictures of guys
> Marauders that haven't kept their air dry and are now junk. Just not
> worth the hassle for me to mess with in this climate. I kinda envy
> where you're located and what you can get away with ;-)
>

Envy me in August when the fish are biting and its to damned hot to step
outside. LOL. My wife is from Ann Arbor, Michigan. She talked me into
going with her to camp out at the Wheatland Music Festival once. In the
desert here it was still hot, but I froze for five days at Wheatland and
my feet never did get warm. This from a guy who used to run trap lines
in the winter and didn't come home from camping for weeks at a time.

When I ran traps there were mornings I'd pour my skillet full of water
to soak while I made coffee, and by the time my coffee was ready I'd
knock the cake of ice out of the skillet. I could get my feet warm on a
freezing night in the desert. I never got my feet warm at Wheatland.

You know what. You are right. I like the desert too. Envy me. LOL.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 15:27:17 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>You know what. You are right. I like the desert too. Envy me. LOL.

Grass is always greener on the other side ;-)

Just remembered to look this up:

https://buck-rail.com

3D prints and sources several interesting airgun accessories. Located
in Texas, not so far away from you...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/3/2023 6:49 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 15:27:17 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> You know what. You are right. I like the desert too. Envy me. LOL.
>
> Grass is always greener on the other side ;-)
>
> Just remembered to look this up:
>
> https://buck-rail.com
>
> 3D prints and sources several interesting airgun accessories. Located
> in Texas, not so far away from you...
>

Iexas is a bit further than you think. Arizona and New Mexico are in
the way to get there. I'm in that part of Arizona where if you go due
west you run into Mexico. Not California.

Pretty reasonable price on his suppressors. I made one for the B-50 a
while back, but I cheated. I used a stack of the plastic cones with a
spring just like in the barrel shroud of the Marauder. It works very
well. The light clack of the plastic cones resetting is louder than the
report.

I shy away from direct threaded devices for airguns. While the appeals
court cases says the BATFE has to prove "intent" I think a threaded
suppressor might tempt them to make me drag it out and fight back. I
have an 03 FFL (collectors license). Its not likely to happen, but that
pretty much entitles them to look at my gun log, and my gun collection
whenever they want. I don't currently have anything with a threaded
muzzle that doesn't have a pinned or welded in place muzzle device, but
I might someday. I tend to buy "lots" of junk and gunsmith special
guns, and then repair them one at a time. There is no telling what
could arrive in one of those lots. Fortunately at least I only have to
log those guns I buy with my license.

I like soft tip set screws and a close slip fit or a compression sleeve
built into the muzzle device. That makes it pretty clear its not
intended for anything with higher pressure. I also build the sleeve out
of thin aluminum. Same reason.

Suppressor for underlever? Is that a springer? I didn't think
suppressors did much for springers with the spring noise and piston
clack usually being far louder than the muzzle report.
--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

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On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 11:40:16 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>Suppressor for underlever? Is that a springer? I didn't think
>suppressors did much for springers with the spring noise and piston
>clack usually being far louder than the muzzle report.

Ask the UK guys. They put suppressors on EVERYTHING because they are so
LOUD😏

Even when my Diana 48 diesels it sounds more like a .22 misfire than
any powder burner I've ever heard... I like shooting airguns because
they are pretty quiet and most people don't take any notice.

I was looking all around that website for clarification on how his
suppressors are legal, knowing they aren't with out a special
permit for powder burners. You more or less answered my question. It
depends on how ATF feels the day they happen to check you out😬

Almost talked myself into a folder stock for my P1377 till I read it
blocks the rear sight. I'd like to get the metal action-block for it
but the price has always went up some more when I go look at them
again... Very deep and expensive rabbit hole time you add the
action-block, longer barrel, folder stock, fatter pump handle ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/3/2023 12:42 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 11:40:16 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Suppressor for underlever? Is that a springer? I didn't think
>> suppressors did much for springers with the spring noise and piston
>> clack usually being far louder than the muzzle report.
>
> Ask the UK guys. They put suppressors on EVERYTHING because they are so
> LOUD😏
>
> Even when my Diana 48 diesels it sounds more like a .22 misfire than
> any powder burner I've ever heard... I like shooting airguns because
> they are pretty quiet and most people don't take any notice.
>
> I was looking all around that website for clarification on how his
> suppressors are legal, knowing they aren't with out a special
> permit for powder burners. You more or less answered my question. It
> depends on how ATF feels the day they happen to check you out😬
>

Airgun suppressors are legal. If not then Crosman/Benjamin would not
make the Marauder with one. Many many years ago when Benjamin was still
its own company the owner/president went on a tirade about how
suppressors weren't needed on airguns and Benjamin would never sell a
gun with one on it.

If you haven't read it there is an appeals court case where the BATFE
decided to make an example out of a convicted felon named Crooker. The
guy sold an airgun suppressor for an airgun with intent that it be used
on an airgun. They obviously cherry picked a case they thought they
could abuse against a easy target (felon) to set a precedent. They did
get a conviction in the lower court. The BATFE lost at the appeals
court level. I don't recall what district it was. The court said they
had to show that Crooker had intent to use it on anything other than an
airgun. Since airguns are not firearms under federal law airgun
suppressors are not firearms either. The BATFE utterly failed to prove
intent. The initial conviction was overturned making it case law at
least in that district.

I do occasionally buy potatoes, pillows, and two liter plastic bottles.
I've even owned an oil filter or two.

Companies have been making airgun suppressors for airguns ever since.
(and before)

> Almost talked myself into a folder stock for my P1377 till I read it
> blocks the rear sight. I'd like to get the metal action-block for it
> but the price has always went up some more when I go look at them
> again... Very deep and expensive rabbit hole time you add the
> action-block, longer barrel, folder stock, fatter pump handle ;-)
>

At one time I thought about getting a Crosman 2240 and doing all the
mods. I even bought one. Then I realized I could build the gun from
scratch better and for less. I sent the gun back. The fact that it was
manufactured and assembled crooked might have been a factor.

You know this is a metal working group? You could make your own airgun
receiver, folding stock, etc. We would all cheer you on.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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On 4/3/2023 2:44 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 4/3/2023 12:42 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 11:40:16 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> Suppressor for underlever?  Is that a springer?  I didn't think
>>> suppressors did much for springers with the spring noise and piston
>>> clack usually being far louder than the muzzle report.
>>
>> Ask the UK guys. They put suppressors on EVERYTHING because they are so
>> LOUD😏
>>
>> Even when my Diana 48 diesels it sounds more like a .22 misfire than
>> any powder burner I've ever heard... I like shooting airguns because
>> they are pretty quiet and most people don't take any notice.
>>
>> I was looking all around that website for clarification on how his
>> suppressors are legal, knowing they aren't with out a special
>> permit for powder burners. You more or less answered my question. It
>> depends on how ATF feels the day they happen to check you out😬
>>
>
> Airgun suppressors are legal.  If not then Crosman/Benjamin would not
> make the Marauder with one.  Many many years ago when Benjamin was still
> its own company the owner/president went on a tirade about how
> suppressors weren't needed on airguns and Benjamin would never sell a
> gun with one on it.
>
> If you haven't read it there is an appeals court case where the BATFE
> decided to make an example out of a convicted felon named Crooker.  The
> guy sold an airgun suppressor for an airgun with intent that it be used
> on an airgun.  They obviously cherry picked a case they thought they
> could abuse against a easy target (felon) to set a precedent.  They did
> get a conviction in the lower court.  The BATFE lost at the appeals
> court level.  I don't recall what district it was.  The court said they
> had to show that Crooker had intent to use it on anything other than an
> airgun.  Since airguns are not firearms under federal law airgun
> suppressors are not firearms either.  The BATFE utterly failed to prove
> intent.  The initial conviction was overturned making it case law at
> least in that district.
>
> I do occasionally buy potatoes, pillows, and two liter plastic bottles.
> I've even owned an oil filter or two.
>
> Companies have been making airgun suppressors for airguns ever since.
> (and before)
>
>
>> Almost talked myself into a folder stock for my P1377 till I read it
>> blocks the rear sight. I'd like to get the metal action-block for it
>> but the price has always went up some more when I go look at them
>> again... Very deep and expensive rabbit hole time you add the
>> action-block, longer barrel, folder stock, fatter pump handle ;-)
>>
>
> At one time I thought about getting a Crosman 2240 and doing all the
> mods.  I even bought one.  Then I realized I could build the gun from
> scratch better and for less.  I sent the gun back.  The fact that it was
> manufactured and assembled crooked might have been a factor.
>
> You know this is a metal working group?  You could make your own airgun
> receiver, folding stock, etc.  We would all cheer you on.
>

I should add when it comes to airgun suppressors you are more likely to
run afoul of state laws than federal law. New Jersey (one of the most
anti gun states) I've heard doesn't allow them at all.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 14:56:57 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>I should add when it comes to airgun suppressors you are more likely to
>run afoul of state laws than federal law. New Jersey (one of the most
>anti gun states) I've heard doesn't allow them at all.

Yeah, it was just a few years ago here (MI) that they legislated
changes so we could buy a pellet pistol without having to get
background check and register it same as a powder burner. It took
numerous attempts and years to get changed. There were some
"suppressor" changes for them made at the same time. Shrouded
barrels were a no-no as I recall before the changes. I'd have go look up
what was finally decided before getting one. The point is kinda moot
though without tearing off the molded front sight assemble to fit one...

I'm in complete agreement with your modding these conclusion. The
steel-breech is $65 + $65 for a new steel rear sight to fit it. That's
why I always let the crazy thought go until I add up the costs again...

You're right I could build one but at this point in my life I'd rather
just dream about it and type on the keyboard while eating lunch ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/3/2023 3:14 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 14:56:57 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I should add when it comes to airgun suppressors you are more likely to
>> run afoul of state laws than federal law. New Jersey (one of the most
>> anti gun states) I've heard doesn't allow them at all.
>
> Yeah, it was just a few years ago here (MI) that they legislated
> changes so we could buy a pellet pistol without having to get
> background check and register it same as a powder burner. It took
> numerous attempts and years to get changed. There were some
> "suppressor" changes for them made at the same time. Shrouded
> barrels were a no-no as I recall before the changes. I'd have go look up
> what was finally decided before getting one. The point is kinda moot
> though without tearing off the molded front sight assemble to fit one...
>
> I'm in complete agreement with your modding these conclusion. The
> steel-breech is $65 + $65 for a new steel rear sight to fit it. That's
> why I always let the crazy thought go until I add up the costs again...
>
> You're right I could build one but at this point in my life I'd rather
> just dream about it and type on the keyboard while eating lunch ;-)
>

It might be a little more be fun to pepper pests with a Hatsan Blitz.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 16:10:02 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>It might be a little more be fun to pepper pests with a Hatsan Blitz.

If it actually worked it would be fun to play with👍 My confidence in
Hatsan quality and longevity though is pretty low...

Several Twitter users have tagged them with some interesting issues
like this🙄 There were others too if you just search on @HatsanUSA.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBaldBaritone/status/1602377742007562240

As a teen I used to sit on a porch step and shoot flies off the wide
cement approach with a Crosman 760 and BB's. Deadly out to ~8ft. I
think the BB would kick up a bit of cement dust if you hit a tad in
front of them. Three pumps was plenty. Ants were a lot tougher. They
rarely stayed still for long so you had to track a moving target. One
shot and then they would really kick it into high gear if you'd missed.
There was nothing to worry about the ricochet hitting either for
hundreds of yards. Old friend ended up with that gun...

Maybe I should get another BB shooter and try that again. Wonder how
the dust BB's would work with those kind of vermin ;-)

https://www.amazon.com/Air-Venturi-Dust-Devil-Frangible/dp/B07BL3DDXW/

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/4/2023 7:20 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 16:10:02 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> It might be a little more be fun to pepper pests with a Hatsan Blitz.
>
> If it actually worked it would be fun to play with👍 My confidence in
> Hatsan quality and longevity though is pretty low...
>
> Several Twitter users have tagged them with some interesting issues
> like this🙄 There were others too if you just search on @HatsanUSA.
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBaldBaritone/status/1602377742007562240
>
> As a teen I used to sit on a porch step and shoot flies off the wide
> cement approach with a Crosman 760 and BB's. Deadly out to ~8ft. I
> think the BB would kick up a bit of cement dust if you hit a tad in
> front of them. Three pumps was plenty. Ants were a lot tougher. They
> rarely stayed still for long so you had to track a moving target. One
> shot and then they would really kick it into high gear if you'd missed.
> There was nothing to worry about the ricochet hitting either for
> hundreds of yards. Old friend ended up with that gun...
>
> Maybe I should get another BB shooter and try that again. Wonder how
> the dust BB's would work with those kind of vermin ;-)
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Air-Venturi-Dust-Devil-Frangible/dp/B07BL3DDXW/
>

If I were to buy another Hatsan I'd probably look at refrubs from Field
Supply.

Mine has not really had any issues other than its just to darn powerful
for a springer. Well... and the lever will break your fingers if you
let it slip.

For a springer plinker I'd probably talk to Dragon Air Rifles about a
tuned noname Chinese import or maybe see what Xisiso is importing. I
might even go wander around the swap meet.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 10:43:29 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>For a springer plinker I'd probably talk to Dragon Air Rifles about a
>tuned noname Chinese import or maybe see what Xisiso is importing.

Thanks for these. Very interesting and tempting. Looks like their stock
is very limited just now (Dragon). I'll check back now and then when I
remember or get the urge. I like this statement on the Home page ;-)

"WE DO NOT WORK ON HATSAN, GAMO, AND CROSMAN AIR RIFLES."

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/4/2023 1:12 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 10:43:29 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> For a springer plinker I'd probably talk to Dragon Air Rifles about a
>> tuned noname Chinese import or maybe see what Xisiso is importing.
>
> Thanks for these. Very interesting and tempting. Looks like their stock
> is very limited just now (Dragon). I'll check back now and then when I
> remember or get the urge. I like this statement on the Home page ;-)
>
> "WE DO NOT WORK ON HATSAN, GAMO, AND CROSMAN AIR RIFLES."
>

When you check in on Flying Dragon check Mike's Blog. Sometimes there
is a gun or a deal listed there that isn't on the website. I bought my
Sentry off one of those deals. Pay full price, but do a comprehensive
review and write it up for a huge payback. I think it was 150 he paid
for the review. I asked him if it could be an honest review, and when
he said yes I bought one. I just notice the latest one is from last
year for B-51s. The B-51 is the .177 version of the B-50 (.22) I have.
That's the Day state Huntsman knockoff. I know you aren't interested in
PCP, but still I might just buy one. I have a second B-50 in a basket.
His B-51s might make a good spare parts kit.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 14:21:37 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>When you check in on Flying Dragon check Mike's Blog. Sometimes there
>is a gun or a deal listed there that isn't on the website. I bought my
>Sentry off one of those deals. Pay full price, but do a comprehensive
>review and write it up for a huge payback. I think it was 150 he paid
>for the review. I asked him if it could be an honest review, and when
>he said yes I bought one. I just notice the latest one is from last
>year for B-51s. The B-51 is the .177 version of the B-50 (.22) I have.
>That's the Day state Huntsman knockoff. I know you aren't interested in
>PCP, but still I might just buy one. I have a second B-50 in a basket.
>His B-51s might make a good spare parts kit.

Yeah, I saw the blog area and no recent entries. I'm guessing maybe a
supply chain problem because another suggested Xisico source didn't have
anything...

I'll keep watch, curious to see what turns up and if I can resist
the temptation to bite on it :)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 14:21:37 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>That's the Day state Huntsman knockoff. I know you aren't interested in
>PCP, but still I might just buy one. I have a second B-50 in a basket.
>His B-51s might make a good spare parts kit.

If you happen to follow through, get in contact I'd be curious to know
what's up with inventory. In reading some "praise" I come across the
model XS28M in .25 cal. It's a hefty break-barrel but I'd be willing to
buy one with the basic tuneup.

I know buying .25 cal springers is a fools errand but I have a weakness
for that caliber🙄 The big Hatsan is a .25 and shoots pretty well when
it's working right. That's the only good thing I can say about it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

On 4/5/2023 12:54 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 14:21:37 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> That's the Day state Huntsman knockoff. I know you aren't interested in
>> PCP, but still I might just buy one. I have a second B-50 in a basket.
>> His B-51s might make a good spare parts kit.
>
> If you happen to follow through, get in contact I'd be curious to know
> what's up with inventory. In reading some "praise" I come across the
> model XS28M in .25 cal. It's a hefty break-barrel but I'd be willing to
> buy one with the basic tuneup.
>
> I know buying .25 cal springers is a fools errand but I have a weakness
> for that caliber🙄 The big Hatsan is a .25 and shoots pretty well when
> it's working right. That's the only good thing I can say about it...
>

I've bought two guns from Mike as well as a few parts my hand pump.
I've had really good treatment overall.

He was making a PCP conversion of a CO2 gun many years back and one came
apart. He screwed up in my opinion. The factory threads on the one
that came apart were to far out of spec. I don't know all the details,
but I can see that. The person it happened to was pretty hateful over
it, and I think Mike was trying to get guns out the door and let one
through that should have waited for parts or gone in the parts bin. If
I was the one it happened to I might be pretty hateful about it too, but
its the only negative story I have ever heard about Mike, and I've been
playing with airguns for a while now. Personally I think he learned his
lesson. Everybody can make a mistake. I also notice he doesn't
currently offer it. There may also not be enough money in it to be
worthwhile anymore with all the new low cost PCPs that have come out the
last 7-8 years.

Overall I like the guy and feel like he's always been straight up with
me. My first PCP was from him. The B-50.

I think I might airgun hunt more if I had a high cap bullpup in .25 like
my Kalibri. PCPs tend to be on the heavy side making off hand shooting
a little harder. A bullpup design moves the weight back towards the
body. Still heavy, but better weight distribution.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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