Took my car to the garage for an oil and brake fluid change. Normally I take my own bike for the ride home. This time they offered me a bike which is a little more convenient 8.00 in the morning. This what I got:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hu6bCLcoq1pSp8x97

Never rode on something like that although this is the most popular model electric bike here. When set at maximum assist cycling is a joke and it is bloody heavy. (yes, I washed my gravel bike)

Lou

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:35:30 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> Took my car to the garage for an oil and brake fluid change. Normally I take my own bike for the ride home. This time they offered me a bike which is a little more convenient 8.00 in the morning. This what I got:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/hu6bCLcoq1pSp8x97
>
> Never rode on something like that although this is the most popular model electric bike here. When set at maximum assist cycling is a joke and it is bloody heavy. (yes, I washed my gravel bike)
>
> Lou
Just one question, Lou, that all of us car mechanics would like to know: if your brake cylinder or caliper bleeding screws are rusted or corroded, who runs the risk that they will break when you try to loosen them, thereby incurring the cost of replacing the cylinder or caliper? Some of the best shops that I know of refuse to flush brake fluid for this reason.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 5:01:52 PM UTC+1, William Crowell wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:35:30 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Took my car to the garage for an oil and brake fluid change. Normally I take my own bike for the ride home. This time they offered me a bike which is a little more convenient 8.00 in the morning. This what I got:
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/hu6bCLcoq1pSp8x97
> >
> > Never rode on something like that although this is the most popular model electric bike here. When set at maximum assist cycling is a joke and it is bloody heavy. (yes, I washed my gravel bike)
> >
> > Lou
> Just one question, Lou, that all of us car mechanics would like to know: if your brake cylinder or caliper bleeding screws are rusted or corroded, who runs the risk that they will break when you try to loosen them, thereby incurring the cost of replacing the cylinder or caliper? Some of the best shops that I know of refuse to flush brake fluid for this reason.

I really would not know William. I maintain my bikes myself but I do no maintenance on my car whatsoever. The brake fluid has to be replaced every two years according to the manufacturer maintenance plan. I just follow that plan. Up to now without problems. Probably spend to much money on it but on the other hand when something happens on the road I just have to call a number to get assistance in whole Europe. This works perfectly. The 'only' condition is that you have to maintain your car according to the manufacturers maintenance plan at the dealer. I just do that.

Lou

On 1/27/2023 10:01 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:35:30 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Took my car to the garage for an oil and brake fluid change. Normally I take my own bike for the ride home. This time they offered me a bike which is a little more convenient 8.00 in the morning. This what I got:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/hu6bCLcoq1pSp8x97
>>
>> Never rode on something like that although this is the most popular model electric bike here. When set at maximum assist cycling is a joke and it is bloody heavy. (yes, I washed my gravel bike)
>>
>> Lou
> Just one question, Lou, that all of us car mechanics would like to know: if your brake cylinder or caliper bleeding screws are rusted or corroded, who runs the risk that they will break when you try to loosen them, thereby incurring the cost of replacing the cylinder or caliper? Some of the best shops that I know of refuse to flush brake fluid for this reason.
>

I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
never been refused service.

It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
Classic cars like mine do not have dual-diagonal systems so
any hydraulic pressure failure is complete brake failure.

The normal practice for a broken bleed port is to either
charge for bleeder removal, extraction, replacement or a new
cylinder. It's a common known risk and should not be an
argumentative or emotional issue.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have never been
> refused service.
>
> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master cylinder or burst
> brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).

I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace brake fluid,
although not so diligently as once per year. But I always found the job
to be inconvenient and sort of messy.

For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a problem. I
guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.

I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles or four years.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>> never been refused service.
>>
>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>
> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> messy.
>
> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>
> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> or four years.
>

Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.

Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
known corrosion risk.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >> never been refused service.
> >>
> >> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >
> > I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > messy.
> >
> > For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >
> > I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > or four years.
> >
> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>
> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> known corrosion risk.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > >> never been refused service.
> > >>
> > >> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > >> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > >
> > > I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > messy.
> > >
> > > For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > >
> > > I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > or four years.
> > >
> > Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >
> > Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > known corrosion risk.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ

On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.

Lou

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 02:16:22 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>> > >> never been refused service.
>> > >>
>> > >> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>> > >> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>> > >
>> > > I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>> > > brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>> > > But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>> > > messy.
>> > >
>> > > For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>> > > problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>> > >
>> > > I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>> > > or four years.
>> > >
>> > Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>> >
>> > Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>> > the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>> > known corrosion risk.
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> >
>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>
>On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
>
>Lou

I recall several years ago encountering a fellow carrying his bike
along the Withlacoochee Trail here in Florida. I stopped and asked why
he was doing that and he said that his Hydraulic brakes had locked up.
They were rim brakes and I suggested a number of easy obvious fixes
and offered the use of my tools. He declined my offers and we went on
our merry ways.

Maybe he just liked carrying the bike, or maybe the fluid couldn't be
drained, or the pads or the entire brake be removed without doing
serious damage, or maybe he was a moron. It was a curious situation.

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>>
>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>>>> messy.
>>>>
>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>>
>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>>>> or four years.
>>>>
>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>>
>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>>> known corrosion risk.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>
> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
>
> Lou
>
I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
things, must be reducing market all the same.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:04:50 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>>
> >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> >>>> messy.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>>
> >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> >>>> or four years.
> >>>>
> >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>>
> >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> >>> known corrosion risk.
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> >
> > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> things, must be reducing market all the same.
>
> Roger Merriman

It is a closed system, so no selfadjusting but being a closed system is also the strength of them. You just turn a screw on the lever to adjust once in a while.

Lou

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > >> never been refused service.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > >> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > >
> > > > I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > > brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > > But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > > messy.
> > > >
> > > > For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > > problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > >
> > > > I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > > or four years.
> > > >
> > > Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > >
> > > Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > known corrosion risk.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred brakes.. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E bikes here. Smart choice.. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 7:14:30 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:04:50 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > >>>>> never been refused service.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > >>>> messy.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > >>>> or four years.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > >>>
> > >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > >>> known corrosion risk.
> > >>> --
> > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >>>
> > >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > >
> > > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> > day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> > things, must be reducing market all the same.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> It is a closed system, so no selfadjusting but being a closed system is also the strength of them. You just turn a screw on the lever to adjust once in a while.
>
> Lou
SRAKM is not a "closed" system and uses the same self adjusting hydraulic levers as disks.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>>>
>>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>>>>> messy.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>>>>> or four years.
>>>>>
>>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>>>
>>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>>>> known corrosion risk.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
>>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
>>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
>>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
>>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
>>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
>> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
>> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
>> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
>> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
>> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
>> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
>
They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.

In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
Magura website.

They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
adequate certainly in the dry!

Roger Merriman

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:04:50 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>>>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>>>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>>>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>>>>>> messy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>>>>>> or four years.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>>>>
>>>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>>>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>>>>> known corrosion risk.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>
>>>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
>>>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
>>>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
>>>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
>>>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
>>>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>>>
>>> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
>>> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
>>> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
>>> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
>>> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
>>> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
>>> maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
>> day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
>> things, must be reducing market all the same.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> It is a closed system, so no selfadjusting but being a closed system is
> also the strength of them. You just turn a screw on the lever to adjust once in a while.
>
> Lou
>

Ah that makes sense and is I’m sure faff free for it’s expected use and so
on.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 6:06:20 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> >>>>> messy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> >>>>> or four years.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>>>
> >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> >>>> known corrosion risk.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation..
> > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> >
> They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
>
> In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> Magura website.
>
> They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> adequate certainly in the dry!
>
> Roger Merriman

Exactly.

Lou

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> >>>>> messy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> >>>>> or four years.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>>>
> >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> >>>> known corrosion risk.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation..
> > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> >
> They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
>
> In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> Magura website.
>
> They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> adequate certainly in the dry!
>
> Roger Merriman

I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.

Cheers

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > >>>>>> never been refused service.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > >>>>> messy.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > >>>>> or four years.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > >>>> known corrosion risk.
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >>>>
> > >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> > >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> > >
> > They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> > which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> > pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
> >
> > In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> > Magura website.
> >
> > They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> > cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> > adequate certainly in the dry!
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>
> Cheers

I've found that V-brakes have more stopping power everywhere. The only time in the last 5 years that I have had to make an emergency stop was when a man in the left turn lane with his left turn lights on turned right directly in front of me. It was a dry sunny day and there was insufficient braking power on a disk brake bike to avoid him but my shouting brought him to a stop barely enough for me to scoot around the front of him. How many people are incapable of planning their rides and their surroundings enough that if there is any brake slip that they can apply the brakes in time for the water to be cleaned off the rims? I just got back from another ride in very heavy fog. The rims were wet and there was no effect on road rim brakes.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 01:09:49 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ

Today's automobiles use vacuum assisted power brakes. I don't believe
that there is comparable vacuum assisted model available for bicycles.
It's also difficult to find an automobile with that doesn't have some
kind of power assist (vacuum, electrical, hydraulic, drag chute, etc)
except for the emergency brake.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 8:34:27 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > >>>>>> never been refused service.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > >>>>> messy.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > >>>>> or four years.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > >>>> known corrosion risk.
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > > >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > > >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > > >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > > >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > > >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > > >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> > > >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > > > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > > > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > > > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> > > >
> > > They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> > > which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> > > pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
> > >
> > > In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> > > Magura website.
> > >
> > > They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> > > cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> > > adequate certainly in the dry!
> > >
> > > Roger Merriman
> > I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >
> > Cheers
> I've found that V-brakes have more stopping power everywhere. The only time in the last 5 years that I have had to make an emergency stop was when a man in the left turn lane with his left turn lights on turned right directly in front of me. It was a dry sunny day and there was insufficient braking power on a disk brake bike to avoid him but my shouting brought him to a stop barely enough for me to scoot around the front of him. How many people are incapable of planning their rides and their surroundings enough that if there is any brake slip that they can apply the brakes in time for the water to be cleaned off the rims? I just got back from another ride in very heavy fog. The rims were wet and there was no effect on road rim brakes.

I am not sure what you are trying to say or prove.

Lou

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>>>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>>>>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>>>>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>>>>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>>>>>>> messy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>>>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>>>>>>> or four years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>>>>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>>>>>> known corrosion risk.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
>>>>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
>>>>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
>>>>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
>>>>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
>>>>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>>>> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
>>>> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
>>>> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
>>>> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
>>>> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
>>>> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
>>>> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
>>> As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
>>> from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
>>> the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
>>> eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
>>>
>> They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
>> which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
>> pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
>>
>> In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
>> Magura website.
>>
>> They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
>> cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
>> adequate certainly in the dry!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>
> Cheers
>
From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
dual pivots which are apparently very good!

MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
years which was woeful!

Roger Merriman

On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>
> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
> years which was woeful!

I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.

And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.

Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
system, perhaps problems with setup.

Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
a time, that was possible here.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>> for use in the
>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>> V-brakes have a
>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>> on my bike after
>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>> where just about top
>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>> latest direct mount
>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>
>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>> even then on the
>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>> I had for few
>> years which was woeful!
>
> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>
> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
> brake force than V-brakes.
>
> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>
> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>

Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
match as well for the required longer wire travel.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:04:50 AM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>>
> >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> >>>> messy.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>>
> >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> >>>> or four years.
> >>>>
> >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>>
> >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> >>> known corrosion risk.
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> >
> > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> things, must be reducing market all the same.
>
> Roger Merman
>
On the contrary. Lou and I both gave you the tip: they are incredibly reliable. So what will electric bike manufacturers above the lowest level of supermarket ebikes choose for brakes for people who count low or absent maintenance a boon? And yes, you don't have to adjust the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes system blocks.
>
Andre Jute
Hallelujah!
>

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>> for use in the
>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>> on my bike after
>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>>> where just about top
>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>>> latest direct mount
>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>
>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>> even then on the
>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>> I had for few
>>> years which was woeful!
>>
>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>
>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>
>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>
>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>
>
>Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>
>https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
Avid MTB BB7 calipers.

I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.