On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 9:51:07 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
> >>>>>>>> for use in the
> >>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
> >>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
> >>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
> >>>>>>>> on my bike after
> >>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
> >>>>>>> where just about top
> >>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
> >>>>>>> latest direct mount
> >>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
> >>>>>>> even then on the
> >>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
> >>>>>>> I had for few
> >>>>>>> years which was woeful!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
> >>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
> >>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
> >>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
> >>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
> >>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
> >>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
> >>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
> >>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
> >>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
> >>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
> >>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
> >>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
> >>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
> >>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
> >>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
> >>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
> >>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
> >>>>
> >>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
> >>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
> >>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
> >>>>
> >>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
> >>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
> >>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
> >>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
> >>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
> >>>>
> >>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
> >>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
> >>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >>
> >> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
> >> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
> >> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
> >> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
> >> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
> >> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
> >> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
> >> bin.
> >>
> >
> >The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
> >useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
> >Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
> >years.
> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
> worked for me.

I had very bad experience with cantilevers since as you applied them, the leverage changed sometimes dramatically and you ended up with your eyeballs bulging out of your sockets trying to get enough stopping power. V-brakes maintained nearly the same leverage over their entire distance. Of course they had greater leverage and so you could run out of lever travel if you didn't keep them in adjustment.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 10:34:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 9:51:07 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>> >>>>>>>> for use in the
>> >>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>> >>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>> >>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>> >>>>>>>> on my bike after
>> >>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Cheers
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>> >>>>>>> where just about top
>> >>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>> >>>>>>> latest direct mount
>> >>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>> >>>>>>> even then on the
>> >>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>> >>>>>>> I had for few
>> >>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>> >>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>> >>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>> >>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>> >>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>> >>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>> >>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>> >>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>> >>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>> >>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>> >>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>> >>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>> >>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>> >>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>> >>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>> >>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>> >>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>> >>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>> >>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>> >>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>> >>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>> >>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>> >>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>> >>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>> >>>>
>> >>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>> >>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>> >>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Merriman
>> >>
>> >> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>> >> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>> >> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>> >> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>> >> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>> >> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>> >> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>> >> bin.
>> >>
>> >
>> >The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>> >useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>> >Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>> >years.
>> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
>> worked for me.
>
>I had very bad experience with cantilevers since as you applied them, the leverage changed sometimes dramatically and you ended up with your eyeballs bulging out of your sockets trying to get enough stopping power. V-brakes maintained nearly the same leverage over their entire distance. Of course they had greater leverage and so you could run out of lever travel if you didn't keep them in adjustment.

I've had a bunch of cantelever brakes over the years. I never had any
problems other than having to replace them. I was generally using
mountain type bikes and riding on streets, roads and hard packed
gravel bike paths. I don't remember have any center pull brakes.

On 1/29/2023 11:51 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>>>
>>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>>> bin.
>>>
>>
>> The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>> useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>> Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>> years.
>
> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
> worked for me.
>

They would have solved that exact problem (TT or road levers
with linear brakes) for you, elegantly and cheaply.

Again, these were very standard setups for many years on
quality machines.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/san0905a.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 13:52:29 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/29/2023 11:51 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>>>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>>>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>>>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>>>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>>>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>>>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>>>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>>>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>>>> bin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>>> useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>>> Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>>> years.
>>
>> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
>> worked for me.
>>
>
>They would have solved that exact problem (TT or road levers
>with linear brakes) for you, elegantly and cheaply.
>
>Again, these were very standard setups for many years on
>quality machines.
>
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/san0905a.jpg

There's no way to attach them down to the BB7s calipers, except by the
cable. I also think that tight loop would have been hard on a cable.
The road BB7s were a lot simpler solution, albeit more expensively.

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 11:52:28 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/29/2023 11:51 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
> >>>>>>>>> for use in the
> >>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
> >>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
> >>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
> >>>>>>>>> on my bike after
> >>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
> >>>>>>>> where just about top
> >>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
> >>>>>>>> latest direct mount
> >>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
> >>>>>>>> even then on the
> >>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
> >>>>>>>> I had for few
> >>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
> >>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
> >>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
> >>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
> >>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
> >>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
> >>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
> >>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
> >>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
> >>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
> >>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
> >>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
> >>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
> >>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
> >>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
> >>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
> >>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
> >>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
> >>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
> >>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
> >>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
> >>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
> >>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
> >>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
> >>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
> >>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
> >>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
> >>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
> >>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
> >>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
> >>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
> >>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
> >>> bin.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
> >> useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
> >> Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
> >> years.
> >
> > I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
> > worked for me.
> >
> They would have solved that exact problem (TT or road levers
> with linear brakes) for you, elegantly and cheaply.
>
> Again, these were very standard setups for many years on
> quality machines.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/san0905a.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Am I using the incorrect name? The brakes in that picture are what I refer to as V-brakes.

On 1/29/2023 2:31 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 13:52:29 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/2023 11:51 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>>>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>>>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>>>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>>>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>>>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>>>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>>>>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>>>>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>>>>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>>>>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>>>>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>>>>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>>>>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>>>>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>>>>> bin.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>>>> useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>>>> Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>>>> years.
>>>
>>> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
>>> worked for me.
>>>
>>
>> They would have solved that exact problem (TT or road levers
>> with linear brakes) for you, elegantly and cheaply.
>>
>> Again, these were very standard setups for many years on
>> quality machines.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/san0905a.jpg
>
> There's no way to attach them down to the BB7s calipers, except by the
> cable. I also think that tight loop would have been hard on a cable.
> The road BB7s were a lot simpler solution, albeit more expensively.
>

I think I mixed two conversations here - linear brakes and
disc brakes. Sorry.

No reason that couldn't work on a disc caliper but cable
routing may be an issue, if not dorky looking.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>
>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>
>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>
>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>
>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>> design mildly better.
>
> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
> longer.
>
>> Both also didn’t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>> pads wore down.
>>
>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>> the power and being sealed mud can’t get in so simple hose off and that’s
>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>> finned pads?
>>
>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>> mechanic bleeding even if it’s every few years is a pain, it’s one of the
>> jobs I don’t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>> away.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>
> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
> more.
>

That’s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
etc.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 17:05:00 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/29/2023 2:31 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 13:52:29 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/29/2023 11:51 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>>>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>>>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>>>>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>>>>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>>>>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>>>>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>>>>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>>>>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>>>>>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>>>>>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>>>>>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>>>>>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>>>>>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>>>>>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>>>>>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>>>>>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>>>>>> bin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>>>>> useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>>>>> Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
>>>> worked for me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They would have solved that exact problem (TT or road levers
>>> with linear brakes) for you, elegantly and cheaply.
>>>
>>> Again, these were very standard setups for many years on
>>> quality machines.
>>>
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/san0905a.jpg
>>
>> There's no way to attach them down to the BB7s calipers, except by the
>> cable. I also think that tight loop would have been hard on a cable.
>> The road BB7s were a lot simpler solution, albeit more expensively.
>>
>
>I think I mixed two conversations here - linear brakes and
>disc brakes. Sorry.

I thought maybe you were looking the other direction. ;)

>No reason that couldn't work on a disc caliper but cable
>routing may be an issue, if not dorky looking.

+1

I'm probably going to keep the road BB7s. They're prettier than the
Mtb version.. Not dorky looking at all.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>
>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>
>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>> design mildly better.
>>
>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>> longer.
>>
>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>> pads wore down.
>>>
>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>> finned pads?
>>>
>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>> away.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>
>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>> more.
>>
>
>That’s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>etc.
>
>Roger Merriman

They do it to cars...

https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny

Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
back to the factory.

https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f

The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>
>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>> design mildly better.
>>>
>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>> longer.
>>>
>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>
>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>> finned pads?
>>>>
>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>> away.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>
>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>> more.
>>>
>>
>> That’s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>> etc.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> They do it to cars...
>
> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>
> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
> back to the factory.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>
> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>
Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
cup of tea job.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:51:50 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>>
>>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>>> design mildly better.
>>>>
>>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>>> longer.
>>>>
>>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>>> finned pads?
>>>>>
>>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>>> away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>>
>>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>>> more.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That?s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> They do it to cars...
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>>
>> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
>> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
>> back to the factory.
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>>
>> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>>
>Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
>easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
>cup of tea job.
>
>Roger Merriman

The right side, not the left one as I said above, is mounted upside
down, and on both of them, the mounting caliper has to be loosened and
tipped out to get at the pads. Then I have to realign the calipers to
the disk. Typically, takes me about an hour.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 19:17:50 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:51:50 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
><roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>>>> design mildly better.
>>>>>
>>>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>>>> longer.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>>>> finned pads?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>>>> more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That?s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> They do it to cars...
>>>
>>> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>>>
>>> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
>>> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
>>> back to the factory.
>>>
>>> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>>>
>>> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>>>
>>Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
>>easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
>>cup of tea job.
>>
>>Roger Merriman
>
>The right side, not the left one as I said above, is mounted upside
>down, and on both of them, the mounting caliper has to be loosened and
>tipped out to get at the pads. Then I have to realign the calipers to
>the disk. Typically, takes me about an hour.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:51:50 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>>>> design mildly better.
>>>>>
>>>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>>>> longer.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>>>> finned pads?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>>>> more.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That?s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> They do it to cars...
>>>
>>> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>>>
>>> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
>>> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
>>> back to the factory.
>>>
>>> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>>>
>>> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>>>
>> Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
>> easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
>> cup of tea job.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> The right side, not the left one as I said above, is mounted upside
> down, and on both of them, the mounting caliper has to be loosened and
> tipped out to get at the pads. Then I have to realign the calipers to
> the disk. Typically, takes me about an hour.
>
That is tedious hopefully your use ie the trails means the pads last a fair
old while! Looking on Strava my old MTB is approaching the point that the
pads should be worn or close too!

Am 28.01.2023 um 10:09 schrieb Andre Jute:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>
>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master cylinder
>>>> or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>
>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace brake
>>> fluid, although not so diligently as once per year. But I always
>>> found the job to be inconvenient and sort of messy.
>>>
>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>
>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles or
>>> four years.
>>>
>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>
>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and the
>> system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a known
>> corrosion risk. -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every
>> day since 1 April, 1971
>>
> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a
> sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of
> the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the
> spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks.
> I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system
> into an automobile component, albeit with discs.

As long at they earn good enough on the bicycle and motorbike markets,
why join into the slavery of being an automobile supplier?

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:05:09 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:51:50 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>>>>> design mildly better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>>>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>>>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>>>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>>>>> longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>>>>> finned pads?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>>>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>>>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>>>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>>>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>>>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>>>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>>>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>>>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That?s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> They do it to cars...
>>>>
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>>>>
>>>> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
>>>> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
>>>> back to the factory.
>>>>
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>>>>
>>>> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>>>>
>>> Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
>>> easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
>>> cup of tea job.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> The right side, not the left one as I said above, is mounted upside
>> down, and on both of them, the mounting caliper has to be loosened and
>> tipped out to get at the pads. Then I have to realign the calipers to
>> the disk. Typically, takes me about an hour.
>>
>That is tedious hopefully your use ie the trails means the pads last a fair
>old while! Looking on Strava my old MTB is approaching the point that the
>pads should be worn or close too!
>
>Though it had a upgrade last year or rather hand me down when the Trance
>had a upgrade so I’ve not yet changed its pads for this set in this useage
>ie commuting even if gravely. But certainly less demanding than MTBing.
>
>Roger Merriman

Andre Jute <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
>>>> never been refused service.
>>>>
>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
>>>
>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
>>> messy.
>>>
>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
>>>
>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
>>> or four years.
>>>
>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
>>
>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
>> known corrosion risk.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
>
I have seen them in the flesh, Hydraulic rim brakes, though probably only
once or twice, and they have been about for decades.

Probably have seen their disks which clearly are their focus, hydraulic rim
brakes being niche.

Not sure any of the technology really could be adapted for cars, bikes is
the only area that has used hydraulic rim brakes and even more than cable
disks, it a dead end technology since hydraulic disks, hence the lack of
development over the years.

Roger Merriman

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 11:26:01 AM UTC, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 28.01.2023 um 10:09 schrieb Andre Jute:
> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master cylinder
> >>>> or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>
> >>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace brake
> >>> fluid, although not so diligently as once per year. But I always
> >>> found the job to be inconvenient and sort of messy.
> >>>
> >>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>
> >>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles or
> >>> four years.
> >>>
> >> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>
> >> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and the
> >> system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a known
> >> corrosion risk. -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every
> >> day since 1 April, 1971
> >>
> > On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a
> > sealed system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of
> > the system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the
> > spares I bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks.
> > I've often wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system
> > into an automobile component, albeit with discs.
> As long at they earn good enough on the bicycle and motorbike markets,
> why join into the slavery of being an automobile supplier?
>
That's a sound point, Rolf. -- AJ
>

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:05:09 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:51:50 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 23:24:20 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>>>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>>>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>>>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>>>>>>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>>>>>>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>>>>>>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>>>>>>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>>>>>>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>>>>>>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>>>>>>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>>>>>>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>>>>>>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>>>>>>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>>>>>>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>>>>>>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>>>>>>>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>>>>>>>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>>>>>>>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>>>>>>>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>>>>>>>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>>>>>>>>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>>>>>>>>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>>>>>>>>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>>>>>>>>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>>>>>>>> my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>>>>>>>> design mildly better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
>>>>>>> are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
>>>>>>> inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
>>>>>>> also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
>>>>>>> longer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both also didn?t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>>>>>>>> the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>>>>>>>> pads wore down.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>>>>>>>> the power and being sealed mud can?t get in so simple hose off and that?s
>>>>>>>> it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>>>>>>>> finned pads?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>>>>>>>> mechanic bleeding even if it?s every few years is a pain, it?s one of the
>>>>>>>> jobs I don?t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
>>>>>>> loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
>>>>>>> left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
>>>>>>> instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
>>>>>>> It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
>>>>>>> adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
>>>>>>> my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
>>>>>>> wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
>>>>>>> never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That?s a bit of design flaw really! Considering the size of such trikes
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> They do it to cars...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/2e4jpwny
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's my current workstand with my wife's Catrike Pocket on the
>>>>> bottom and my old Expedition frame stripped down and about to be sent
>>>>> back to the factory.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/49pnve4f
>>>>>
>>>>> The Rotisserie would have to be steel or aluminum.
>>>>>
>>>> Neat tool though I think, the callipers in a location that the pads can be
>>>> easily pulled out and swapped out as it should be a 5 min while you make a
>>>> cup of tea job.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> The right side, not the left one as I said above, is mounted upside
>>> down, and on both of them, the mounting caliper has to be loosened and
>>> tipped out to get at the pads. Then I have to realign the calipers to
>>> the disk. Typically, takes me about an hour.
>>>
>> That is tedious hopefully your use ie the trails means the pads last a fair
>> old while! Looking on Strava my old MTB is approaching the point that the
>> pads should be worn or close too!
>>
>> Though it had a upgrade last year or rather hand me down when the Trance
>> had a upgrade so I’ve not yet changed its pads for this set in this useage
>> ie commuting even if gravely. But certainly less demanding than MTBing.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Tedious, perhaps, but one of my joys is working on the bikes. My wife
> calls it fiddling with the bikes. I'm always looking for something
> that needs to be done... make that something that needs to be done
> with the bikes, not painting or re-arranging furniture....
>
Ah fair enough!

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:35:30 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Took my car to the garage for an oil and brake fluid change. Normally I take my own bike for the ride home. This time they offered me a bike which is a little more convenient 8.00 in the morning. This what I got:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/hu6bCLcoq1pSp8x97
>
> Never rode on something like that although this is the most popular model electric bike here. When set at maximum assist cycling is a joke and it is bloody heavy. (yes, I washed my gravel bike)
>
> Lou

After thinking about it for awhile I started wondering exactly what you meant?

1. Did you imply that rather than cars people will only be able to buy electric bikes which will turn out to be heavy and lifeless and without an ounce of sport?
2 Or did you think that in your old age that this will be the only sort of bike you will be able to afford and ride?

The world does NOT look good now. Biden has quite purposely driven the US and consequently the world into a deep recession. But this will not last. And aside from the US dollar being forced to devalue and then revalue in the next several years. Incomes will again balance with living costs. After all, 10% of the world has been murdered by Anthony Fauci and the environmentalists couldn't be happier.

But we normal people will survive and change everything back to normal.

So, if you're worried about the world and civilization being destroyed, don't. There is FAR too much education now to allow another dark age. This means that NO ONE is going to be faced with $50,000 family cars in the future.. This means that electric cars are not going to take over. On TV this morning a couple of electric cars got into an accident and caught on fire. The firemen rescued the people from their cars but let the cars burn since they can't put those fires out.

Will it will be a decade before the damage of Biden and the likes of the stupid four here who follow like sheep, things are going to get a LOT better. OPf course, Liebermann will continue to say that Paul Pelosi isn't queer despite the video evidence. Krygowski will continue to say that the most dangerous gun the in world is an AR15. And Flunky will continue to tell you that I'm a liar and that he tells nothing but the unvarnished truth. Scharf, being a politician will follow the flow.

And their world of hate and disorder will disappear and they will cry, if the vaccines haven't killed them by then.