On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:11:05 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 8:34:27 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > > >>>>>> never been refused service.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > > >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > > >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > > >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > > >>>>> messy.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > > >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > > >>>>> or four years.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > > >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > > >>>> known corrosion risk.
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > > > >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > > > >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > > > >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > > > >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > > > >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > > > >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > > >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > > >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > > >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > > >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > > >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> > > > >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > > > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > > > > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > > > > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > > > > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> > > > >
> > > > They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> > > > which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> > > > pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
> > > >
> > > > In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> > > > Magura website.
> > > >
> > > > They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> > > > cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> > > > adequate certainly in the dry!
> > > >
> > > > Roger Merriman
> > > I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > I've found that V-brakes have more stopping power everywhere. The only time in the last 5 years that I have had to make an emergency stop was when a man in the left turn lane with his left turn lights on turned right directly in front of me. It was a dry sunny day and there was insufficient braking power on a disk brake bike to avoid him but my shouting brought him to a stop barely enough for me to scoot around the front of him. How many people are incapable of planning their rides and their surroundings enough that if there is any brake slip that they can apply the brakes in time for the water to be cleaned off the rims? I just got back from another ride in very heavy fog. The rims were wet and there was no effect on road rim brakes.
> I am not sure what you are trying to say or prove.
>
> Lou

I am saying that V-brakes have proven to me to be very effective. Obviously this is due to the way I ride. You may find your opinion different. I also believe WITHOUT trying them but knowing the power of hydraulic levers, that the SRAM hydraulic rim brakes would probably have at least that much power or more.

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:27:29 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> >>>>>>>> never been refused service.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> >>>>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> >>>>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> >>>>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> >>>>>>> messy.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> >>>>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> >>>>>>> or four years.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> >>>>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> >>>>>> known corrosion risk.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> >>>>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> >>>>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> >>>>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> >>>>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> >>>>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> >>>> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> >>>> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> >>>> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> >>>> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> >>>> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> >>>> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> >>>> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> >>> As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> >>> from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> >>> the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> >>> eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> >>>
> >> They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> >> which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> >> pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
> >>
> >> In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> >> Magura website.
> >>
> >> They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> >> cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> >> adequate certainly in the dry!
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
> > snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
> > LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
> > I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>
> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
> years which was woeful!

There are MTB V-brakes and CX V-brakes. You have to be careful to get the correct type for your use or the pivot will be in the wrong place and either they won't have much power or they just won't fit. But using the proper type for your use and the V-brakes are extremely powerful. But their weakness is that they have a lot of leverage so even a little wear on the brake pads and you run out of lever movement. That's why they must have wear adjustments in the mechanism.

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 3:28:47 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:04:50 AM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > >>>>> never been refused service.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > >>>> messy.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > >>>> or four years.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > >>>
> > >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > >>> known corrosion risk.
> > >>> --
> > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >>>
> > >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > >
> > > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> > day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> > things, must be reducing market all the same.
> >
> > Roger Merman
> >
> On the contrary. Lou and I both gave you the tip: they are incredibly reliable. So what will electric bike manufacturers above the lowest level of supermarket ebikes choose for brakes for people who count low or absent maintenance a boon? And yes, you don't have to adjust the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes system blocks.
> >
> Andre Jute
> Hallelujah!
> >

Rim brakes have such a large diameter of wheel to work against that in general, pad wear is low and slow. Just the perfect thing for general purpose and E-bikes.

Frank wants to have an "engineering discussion" about rim brake mechanisms as if they are so complex that it requires a lot of intellectual power to chose one out of the many and not what the bike is made to use.

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 1:59:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
> >>> for use in the
> >>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
> >>> V-brakes have a
> >>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
> >>> on my bike after
> >>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
> >> where just about top
> >> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
> >> latest direct mount
> >> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
> >>
> >> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
> >> even then on the
> >> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
> >> I had for few
> >> years which was woeful!
> >
> > I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
> > on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
> > say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
> > mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
> > simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
> >
> > And the fundamental principles come down to something like
> > force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
> > distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
> > brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
> > force. While specific models of brakes may have different
> > ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
> > styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
> > ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
> > brake force than V-brakes.
> >
> > Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
> > secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
> > certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
> >
> > Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
> > interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
> >
> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Perhaps you made a mistake - you cannot have less leverage and more pressure of the shoes again the rim. Or maybe you meant, per distance of lever travel. But then that would mean more lever pressure to achieve it.

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:08:39 AM UTC, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 3:28:47 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:04:50 AM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > >>>>> never been refused service.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > >>>> messy.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > >>>> or four years.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > >>> known corrosion risk.
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > > >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >>>
> > > >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > > >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > > >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > > >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > > >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > > >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > > >
> > > > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > > > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> > > day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> > > things, must be reducing market all the same.
> > >
> > > Roger Merman
> > >
> > On the contrary. Lou and I both gave you the tip: they are incredibly reliable. So what will electric bike manufacturers above the lowest level of supermarket ebikes choose for brakes for people who count low or absent maintenance a boon? And yes, you don't have to adjust the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes system blocks.
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > Hallelujah!
> > >
> Rim brakes have such a large diameter of wheel to work against that in general, pad wear is low and slow. Just the perfect thing for general purpose and E-bikes.
>
> Frank wants to have an "engineering discussion" about rim brake mechanisms as if they are so complex that it requires a lot of intellectual power to chose one out of the many and not what the bike is made to use.
>
And the poor dimbo Krygoski leaves off the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes, which have a sealed system filled with incompressible fluid, so that the ratio is fixed, alterable by changing the bore of the calliper. Once again I feel sorry for that idiots students.
>
Poor Krygowski's bikes and the "engineering" he learned off by heart are both so yesterday, so much from the Post Office age of cycling, that one wonders what he can possibly say that anyone wants to hear. Well, I suppose except Franki-boy's butt-boy, Flunky, the Haverhill Hee-Haw aka Flunky.
>
Andre Jute
"Why are engineers the ugliest people in the world?" -- TIME Magazine cover strapline.
>

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:43:25 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>> for use in the
>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>>>> where just about top
>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>>>> latest direct mount
>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>
>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>> even then on the
>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>> I had for few
>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>
>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>
>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>
>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>
>>
>>Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>
>>https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
>It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>
>I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.

Somehow bicycle brakes seem to be a major subject among Bicyclists but
in my experience, and I've used about every type of mechanical bike
brake made, they all work.
(Assuming, of course that one knows what he/she/it is doing when one
installs and adjusts them :-)

As an aside, I see no reason that with the advent of the electric
bicycle that an "electric brake" could not be developed, which, of
course, would cost a thousand dollars, or more, and be hailed by the
multitudes as "Better"!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:08:39 AM UTC, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 3:28:47 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 11:04:50 AM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > >>>>> never been refused service.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > >>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > >>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > >>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > >>>> messy.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > >>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > >>>> or four years.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > >>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > >>> known corrosion risk.
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Andrew Muzi
> > > >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >>>
> > > >> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > > >> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > > >> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > > >> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > > >> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > > >> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > > >
> > > > On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > > brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > > popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > > on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > > become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > > bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible low
> > > > maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > I assume the pads self adjust like disks? I was aware of them back in the
> > > day though never owned a bike with them, they are still sold by looks of
> > > things, must be reducing market all the same.
> > >
> > > Roger Merman
> > >
> > On the contrary. Lou and I both gave you the tip: they are incredibly reliable. So what will electric bike manufacturers above the lowest level of supermarket ebikes choose for brakes for people who count low or absent maintenance a boon? And yes, you don't have to adjust the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes system blocks.
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > Hallelujah!
> > >
> Rim brakes have such a large diameter of wheel to work against that in general, pad wear is low and slow. Just the perfect thing for general purpose and E-bikes.
>
> Frank wants to have an "engineering discussion" about rim brake mechanisms as if they are so complex that it requires a lot of intellectual power to chose one out of the many and not what the bike is made to use.
>
>I feel sorry for that dimho Krygowski. His "engineering", which he learned off by rote, and his bikes are both so out of the Post Office Age of Cycling, it beggars belief that he can say anything of interest to a modern cyclist. And he is so behind the times that he leaves off hydraulic rim brakes from a list clearly intended to be exhaustive! Yo, Franki-boy, in the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brake system the tube is filled with incompressible fluid, sealed in for life, the brake handle lever length is fixed, so there is nothing you can change, unless you want to enlarge the piston chamber. I really wonder who believes poor old Krygo, except of course his butt-boy, Flunky the Haverhill Hee-Haw.
>
Andre Jute
"Why are engineers the ugliest people in the world?" -- TIME Magazine cover flag
>

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>> for use in the
>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>>>> where just about top
>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>>>> latest direct mount
>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>
>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>> even then on the
>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>> I had for few
>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>
>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>
>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>
>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>
>>
>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>
> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>
I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>
>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>> years which was woeful!
>
> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>
> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>
> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>
> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
> a time, that was possible here.
>
Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.

The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
cantilever maybe 5 years?

Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
the Cattrikes.

Roger Merriman

On 1/28/2023 4:49 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Somehow bicycle brakes seem to be a major subject among Bicyclists but
> in my experience, and I've used about every type of mechanical bike
> brake made, they all work.
> (Assuming, of course that one knows what he/she/it is doing when one
> installs and adjusts them :-)

Have you dealt with U brakes?
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-u.html>. Quite a bad invention.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:44:26 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/28/2023 4:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Somehow bicycle brakes seem to be a major subject among Bicyclists but
>> in my experience, and I've used about every type of mechanical bike
>> brake made, they all work.
>> (Assuming, of course that one knows what he/she/it is doing when one
>> installs and adjusts them :-)
>
>Have you dealt with U brakes?
><https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-u.html>. Quite a bad invention.

From reading the reference it seems that the "U" brake was the same as
what I called "center pull" except the pivot was directly to the
frame. And no, I never tried them, in fact I can't remember even
seeing one :-)
But I did use center pull brakes although I thought that the center
pull cable arrangement was a bit more complex then necessary and went
to side pull with extended arms, which of course meant that the brake
lever pull was minimal but as my rims were "true" I got away with
setting the pads very close to the rims.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 4:59:22 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
> >>> for use in the
> >>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
> >>> V-brakes have a
> >>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
> >>> on my bike after
> >>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
> >> where just about top
> >> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
> >> latest direct mount
> >> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
> >>
> >> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
> >> even then on the
> >> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
> >> I had for few
> >> years which was woeful!
> >
> > I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
> > on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
> > say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
> > mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
> > simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
> >
> > And the fundamental principles come down to something like
> > force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
> > distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
> > brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
> > force. While specific models of brakes may have different
> > ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
> > styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
> > ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
> > brake force than V-brakes.
> >
> > Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
> > secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
> > certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
> >
> > Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
> > interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
> >
> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

Yes, typical linear brakes have a higher system mechanical advantage than
most other caliper brake designs. But that's not a mandatory feature, and it's possible to
design other types of brakes with higher mechanical advantage.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 9:44:31 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 1/28/2023 4:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Somehow bicycle brakes seem to be a major subject among Bicyclists but
> > in my experience, and I've used about every type of mechanical bike
> > brake made, they all work.
> > (Assuming, of course that one knows what he/she/it is doing when one
> > installs and adjusts them :-)
> Have you dealt with U brakes?
> <https://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-u.html>. Quite a bad invention.

My only experience with U brakes was when working on the bike of a friend.
His had U brakes mounted on the chainstays, just behind the seat tube. IIRC
the straddle cable went around the seat tube. In any case, I thought it was a
terrible place to mount a brake, and I remember there seemed to be a dearth
of room for anything I wanted to do to adjust them.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:11:14 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> From reading the reference it seems that the "U" brake was the same as
> what I called "center pull" except the pivot was directly to the
> frame. And no, I never tried them, in fact I can't remember even
> seeing one :-)
> But I did use center pull brakes although I thought that the center
> pull cable arrangement was a bit more complex then necessary and went
> to side pull with extended arms, which of course meant that the brake
> lever pull was minimal but as my rims were "true" I got away with
> setting the pads very close to the rims.

With caliper brakes (and probably all brakes) rigidity is very beneficial. I think
that was a big shortcoming of old style centerpull brakes. Aside from the inevitable
clearance in the pivots, there was significant opportunity for extra flex in the extra
aluminum part , whatever it's called, that connected the single mounting bolt
to the pivot shafts.

My first "good" bike (1972 model) came with long reach centerpulls. After many
years I had cantilever bosses brazed on (that was before I had my own torch set)
and installed cantilevers. I was happy with the increased rigidity. Those are still
on that bike.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 12:56:42 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:11:05 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 8:34:27 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 9:39:55 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 12:06:20 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 2:16:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > >> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:09:51 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 6:22:14 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 1/27/2023 11:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> On 1/27/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> I have a complete brake fluid purge done annually and have
> > > > > >>>>>> never been refused service.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> It's cheap maintenance as compared to a rusted master
> > > > > >>>>>> cylinder or burst brake line (brake fluid is hygroscopic).
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I do almost all my own car maintenance, and used to replace
> > > > > >>>>> brake fluid, although not so diligently as once per year.
> > > > > >>>>> But I always found the job to be inconvenient and sort of
> > > > > >>>>> messy.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> For the last two cars, I never did it. That never caused a
> > > > > >>>>> problem. I guess I'm hoping the technology has gotten better.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> I see my current car calls for replacement at 60,000 miles
> > > > > >>>>> or four years.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>> Which reflects on the materials, seals and venting design.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Classic master cylinders are cast iron, lines are steel and
> > > > > >>>> the system is vented. Absorbed moisture in the fluid is a
> > > > > >>>> known corrosion risk.
> > > > > >>>> --
> > > > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> On bicycles I like the Magura Hydraulic Rim brakes, which are a sealed
> > > > > >>> system of calliper-tube-brake handle, good for the lifetime of the
> > > > > >>> system. Mine is twelve or thirteen years old, and none of the spares I
> > > > > >>> bought with the bike has been used, except brake blocks. I've often
> > > > > >>> wondered why Magura hasn't turned that wonderful system into an
> > > > > >>> automobile component, albeit with discs. -- AJ
> > > > > >> On utility bikes Magura Hydraulic rim brakes would be my preferred
> > > > > >> brakes. I have them on my utility bike. At the moment hydraulic disks
> > > > > >> popped up on utility bikes I bought a complete spare set when they were
> > > > > >> on sale because I have the FIRM tech model and I was afraid they would
> > > > > >> become obsolete. Fortunately they come now as default on mid range E
> > > > > >> bikes here. Smart choice. They are so f*cking reliable and incredible
> > > > > >> low maintenance. Even changing the pads is a 30 sec non tool operation.
> > > > > > As heavy as disk brakes are, you have to wonder why hydraulic rim brakes
> > > > > > from Magura or SRAM haven't become popular. Especially considering all of
> > > > > > the pros that hate disk brakes. Their self adjusting feature totally
> > > > > > eliminates the need for adjusting a cable brake as the pads wear,
> > > > > >
> > > > > They don’t self adjust looking at Magura web but have manual adjustments
> > > > > which will be fine for road or utility cycling but for off road where rim
> > > > > pads life can be very short it’s far from fit and forget that disk are.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fairness that’s why they are aimed at trekking ie utility cycling in
> > > > > Magura website.
> > > > >
> > > > > They are lighter and by some margin though if weight is your concern then
> > > > > cable brake be they V or dual pivots are if your not off road perfectly
> > > > > adequate certainly in the dry!
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Merriman
> > > > I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > I've found that V-brakes have more stopping power everywhere. The only time in the last 5 years that I have had to make an emergency stop was when a man in the left turn lane with his left turn lights on turned right directly in front of me. It was a dry sunny day and there was insufficient braking power on a disk brake bike to avoid him but my shouting brought him to a stop barely enough for me to scoot around the front of him. How many people are incapable of planning their rides and their surroundings enough that if there is any brake slip that they can apply the brakes in time for the water to be cleaned off the rims? I just got back from another ride in very heavy fog. The rims were wet and there was no effect on road rim brakes.
> > I am not sure what you are trying to say or prove.
> >
> > Lou
> I am saying that V-brakes have proven to me to be very effective. Obviously this is due to the way I ride. You may find your opinion different. I also believe WITHOUT trying them but knowing the power of hydraulic levers, that the SRAM hydraulic rim brakes would probably have at least that much power or more.

I think every brake (system) has its place depending on the ride conditions and personal preference. Cantilever rim brakes don't belong on CX bikes and rim brakes don't belong on CF rims. All this is based on my extensive experience with these. YMMV.

Lou

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 07:49:47 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:43:25 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>>>>> where just about top
>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>
>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>> even then on the
>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>> I had for few
>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>
>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>
>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>
>>>https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>
>>It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>
>>I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>
>Somehow bicycle brakes seem to be a major subject among Bicyclists but
>in my experience, and I've used about every type of mechanical bike
>brake made, they all work.
>(Assuming, of course that one knows what he/she/it is doing when one
>installs and adjusts them :-)

And one knows enough to buy the right parts, which took me a while to
figure out.

>As an aside, I see no reason that with the advent of the electric
>bicycle that an "electric brake" could not be developed, which, of
>course, would cost a thousand dollars, or more, and be hailed by the
>multitudes as "Better"!

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>> where just about top
>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>
>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>> even then on the
>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>> I had for few
>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>
>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>
>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>
>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>
>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>
>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>
>I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>
>Roger Merriman

I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
bin.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>
>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>> years which was woeful!
>>
>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>
>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>
>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>
>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>> a time, that was possible here.
>>
>Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>
>The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>cantilever maybe 5 years?
>
>Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>the Cattrikes.
>
>Roger Merriman

The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes where just about top
>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>
>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>
>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>
>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>
>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>
>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>
>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>
>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>> the Cattrikes.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>
My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
design mildly better.

Both also didn’t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
pads wore down.

Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
the power and being sealed mud can’t get in so simple hose off and that’s
it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
finned pads?

But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
mechanic bleeding even if it’s every few years is a pain, it’s one of the
jobs I don’t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
away.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:18:28 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:44:26 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes for use in the
>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the V-brakes have a
>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true on my bike after
>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I?d say V brakes where just about top
>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I?ve not used the latest direct mount
>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>
>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike even then on the
>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike I had for few
>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion on the
>>>> differences between various types of rim brakes. I say that because they
>>>> are pretty simple systems, comprised mostly of simple levers; or in the
>>>> case of dual pivots, simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>
>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like force times
>>>> distance input (at the lever) equals force times distance output (at the
>>>> brake pad). IOW, for a given model, brake force is some ratio or
>>>> constant multiplying the lever force. While specific models of brakes
>>>> may have different ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that
>>>> most styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of ratios. For
>>>> example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to secondary
>>>> effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in certain parts of the
>>>> system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>
>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be interesting. Once upon
>>>> a time, that was possible here.
>>>>
>>> Quite apart from Usenet well Usenet.
>>>
>>> The date at which development has stopped or at rather flat lined is fairly
>>> broad V brakes has been on relatively cheap MTB/hybrids for what this
>>> century? Dual pivots well moved to direct mount 2/3 years ago? CX
>>> cantilever maybe 5 years?
>>>
>>> Cable disks about 10 years realistically though some independent stuff
>>> still happening. Hence same models being used even now, ie such Avid BB7 on
>>> the Cattrikes.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> The two BB7s on my two 406 wheels give me more stopping than I need. I
>> set mine so that the lever pull bottoms out before the calipers lock
>> up the wheels at more than a few MPH. Even then I can easily lift the
>> rear wheel off the ground. I read horror stories of trike riders
>> flipping themselves up and onto their faces in a panic stop.
>>
>My gravel bike had similar designed but (Trektro) single piston brakes, for
>my uses they lacked power, I did also try a more expensive two piston
>design mildly better.

The larger the wheel the more power is required to stop it. The Avids
are a single piston design but I've heard of people locking up the 20
inch wheels at 20+ MPH. Any more stopping power would be dangerous. I
also use metallic pads because they are less grabby. They also last
longer.

>Both also didn’t cope well with mud getting into the system and trashing
>the callipers not helped by in such conditions needing to adjust as the
>pads wore down.
>
>Hence going to hydraulic as for myself much better fit, in that they have
>the power and being sealed mud can’t get in so simple hose off and that’s
>it, and it self adjusts. Much reduced wear rate as well possibly due to
>finned pads?
>
>But I can see that for your uses any advantages are reduced and as home
>mechanic bleeding even if it’s every few years is a pain, it’s one of the
>jobs I don’t have space/tools etc for so take it to the bike shop 5mins
>away.
>
>Roger Merriman

Changing the pads on the Catrike is a pain in the ass. I have to
loosen the caliper mounting bolts to get at the pads, and since the
left caliper is installed upside down, I completely remove the caliper
instead of turning the Catrike upside down or on its side.

I have plans for a work rack that Rotisseries the Catrike upside down.
It uses the bike's axle locations for attachment points and is
adjustable for various sized trikes. It also has U shaped pads like on
my current rack for holding the bike upright with the wheels on. My
wife says I should patent it and sell them. It's one of those things I
never got around to doing. I don't even have welding equipment any
more.

On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 1:00:16 AM UTC, Andre Jute wrote:
>...in the Magura Rim Hydraulic Brake system the tube is filled with incompressible fluid, sealed in for life, the brake handle lever length is fixed, so there is nothing you can change, unless you want to enlarge the piston chamber.
>
This statement above from me isn't quite exhaustive. There is something else you can do to change a Magura Rim Hydraulic Brake's gripping power on the rim. Not many people know about it, and I imagine most won't see it for themselves or care if they do. What else you can do is to fit Magura's fork brace, or remove it if already fitted. This is an upside-down U-shape of cast or machined alloy or in one installation that I've seen of folded steel that bolts to the brake bosses and stiffens the fork against twisting under hard braking, thus bestowing greater gripping power to the callipers when fitted or less when removed. It's obviously not a gradual alteration, being either on or off. I don't have this brace fitted to my bike because I like the progressiveness of the lowest-spec Magura Rim Hydraulic Brakes (especially the ones from back in the days when the HS11 was technically rather than merely cosmetically different from the -33), which I anyhow specified to escape the sudden-faceplant nature of disc brakes and Shimano's highest spec roller brakes*, both of which I have on other bikes. Apologies for the oversight.

* At the time the top of the Shimano Roller Brake tree was the -75, a killer brake that required constant awareness or it would plant you painfully on your face; not a brake for social rides, which is what do mostly. I actually like Shimano's low-spec pretty limp roller brake -- say the 40 series -- on the rear, in conjunction with a disc at the front, because it is a form of automatic ABS braking, very secure because it stops the back locking up before the front while keeping the back of the bike straight in an emergency stop. I have this combo, a disc at the front with a -40 series Roller Brake on the back, on my Gazelle Toulouse, which is part of what makes it such a pleasing bike for a sporting gentleman, as opposed to a sweaty jock.

On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 7:08:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Frank wants to have an "engineering discussion" about rim brake mechanisms as if they are so complex that it requires a lot of intellectual power to chose one out of the many and not what the bike is made to use.

Says the guy who was looking for metric torx wrenches....

On 1/28/2023 6:36 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 1:59:22 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>> for use in the
>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>> From memory assuming all being equal I’d say V brakes
>>>> where just about top
>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though I’ve not used the
>>>> latest direct mount
>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>
>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>> even then on the
>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>> I had for few
>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>
>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>
>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>
>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>
>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>
>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Perhaps you made a mistake - you cannot have less leverage and more pressure of the shoes again the rim. Or maybe you meant, per distance of lever travel. But then that would mean more lever pressure to achieve it.
>

Same input.
More cable travel
Less pad travel
= higher pressure on rim.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>
>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>
>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>
>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
> bin.
>

The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
years.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:06:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/29/2023 3:08 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jan 2023 01:34:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:59:21 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/28/2023 3:27 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I moved from properly setup cantilever brakes to V-brakes
>>>>>>>> for use in the
>>>>>>>> snow as I found on a test ride with another bike that the
>>>>>>>> V-brakes have a
>>>>>>>> LOT more stopping power in snow. I found that to be true
>>>>>>>> on my bike after
>>>>>>>> I went from cantilevers to V-brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From memory assuming all being equal Iâ??d say V brakes
>>>>>>> where just about top
>>>>>>> of rim brakes pile (cable) though Iâ??ve not used the
>>>>>>> latest direct mount
>>>>>>> dual pivots which are apparently very good!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MTB cantilevers where for the capabilities of the bike
>>>>>>> even then on the
>>>>>>> weak side, though nothing like as bad as on the cross bike
>>>>>>> I had for few
>>>>>>> years which was woeful!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to have an actual Mechanical Engineering discussion
>>>>>> on the differences between various types of rim brakes. I
>>>>>> say that because they are pretty simple systems, comprised
>>>>>> mostly of simple levers; or in the case of dual pivots,
>>>>>> simple linkages. They should be easy to analyze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the fundamental principles come down to something like
>>>>>> force times distance input (at the lever) equals force times
>>>>>> distance output (at the brake pad). IOW, for a given model,
>>>>>> brake force is some ratio or constant multiplying the lever
>>>>>> force. While specific models of brakes may have different
>>>>>> ratios between lever force and brake force, ISTM that most
>>>>>> styles of brakes can be designed with a wide variety of
>>>>>> ratios. For example, cantis _can_ be designed to give more
>>>>>> brake force than V-brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thus the differences between brake types must come down to
>>>>>> secondary effects - perhaps flexibility or friction in
>>>>>> certain parts of the system, perhaps problems with setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, an actual engineering discussion would be
>>>>>> interesting. Once upon a time, that was possible here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Linear brakes have shorter pad travel but more pressure
>>>>> against the rim for the same hand pressure. (Levers need to
>>>>> match as well for the required longer wire travel.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't until I got the Catrike that I discovered there were both,
>>>> long pull and short pull brake levers. The Catrike came with disks and
>>>> Avid MTB BB7 calipers.
>>>>
>>>> I redesigned the steering and handlebars and had to use TT bar end
>>>> levers. I got Cane Creeks, and I had trouble getting them to work
>>>> properly until I discovered I was using long calipers with short pull
>>>> levers. I couldn't find any long pull TT bar end levers, so I changed
>>>> out the MTB BB7s for Road BB7s and now they're perfect.
>>>>
>>> I *think* could get converter though it’s been quite a while now, I think
>>> this was to run, MTB cable brakes on your CX bike ie for folks hacking
>>> about the woods who wanted a bit more power than was needed for racing.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I did find a strange little round device for a vbrake that increased
>> the pull of a short pull lever. It mounted on the vbrake itself and
>> wound the cable around a little wheel. They were pretty cheap and I
>> ordered a pair to see if I could use them. While I was waiting for
>> them to get here from China, I bought the Avid Road BB7s. When the
>> converters got here I quickly realized they were useless for my
>> application anyway. I threw them away rather than clutter up my parts
>> bin.
>>
>
>The dual capstan pulley works just lie a compound bow. Very
>useful little thing for road levers with linear brakes.
>Those were standard equipment on Santana STi tandems for 25
>years.

I didn't know that's what they are called. I doubt they would've
worked for me.