This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.

The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.

Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough?
"3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection! "
Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
"As much as you can afford, of course!"

I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.

For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
high- and low-line voltage situations.
Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
how much power
their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
for the UPS.

cheers, RS

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 10:50:55 AM UTC-7, Rickster wrote:
>...The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use.

> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector...
> but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

That 'computer equipment' has sacrificial parts, and the fancy PC only needs a $50 replacement power
brick when the surges kill it. The third solution is to plan, somewhat, for the larger surges by making
the failure modes graceful and repairable.

A friend in an urban home got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.

On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>
> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>

What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.

Home Depot for example:

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

John :-#)#

On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
> problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One
> solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
> use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
> gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
> but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
> wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
> cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>
> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will
> actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
> know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
> wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
> Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
> protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>
>

I must be missing something. Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
strips are common and cheap. So are socket adaptors with timers. I
didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
would not be hard.

Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
which will have surge protection.

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
> > This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
> >
> > The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
> >
> What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
> you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.
>
> Home Depot for example:
>
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html

Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol

Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box in the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay

The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have good strain relief for the two cables.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
> > This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
> > problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One
> > solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
> > use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
> > gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
> > but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
> > wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
> > cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
> >
> > The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will
> > actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
> > know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
> > wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
> > Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
> > protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
> >
> >
> I must be missing something.

I agree with that.

> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
> strips are common and cheap.

I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.

> So are socket adaptors with timers. I
> didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
> would not be hard.

I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
> which will have surge protection.

Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold appliances, TV, microwave,... I was told even the refrigerator has crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 2022/03/29 1:12 p.m., Rickster wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
>> On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
>>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>>>
>>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>>>
>> What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
>> you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone.
>>
>> Home Depot for example:
>>
>> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html
>
> Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol
>
> Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box in the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay
>
> The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have good strain relief for the two cables.
>

Have you looked at these - bottom of page - Time Delay Relays?

https://www.mcmaster.com/octal-relays/

You could use an old ceramic or bakelite tube socket and mount that in
your power bar.

John :-#)#

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Rickster wrote:
> [...]
> Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
> protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?

A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
get burned out, they need replaced).

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Rickster wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
>> > This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
>> > problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One
>> > solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in
>> > use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually
>> > gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used,
>> > but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the
>> > wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with
>> > cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>> >
>> > The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will
>> > actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I
>> > know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm
>> > wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances.
>> > Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
>> > protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>> >
>> >
>> I must be missing something.
>
> I agree with that.
>
>
>> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
>> strips are common and cheap.
>
> I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly
> worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
> stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started
> warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of
> resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started
> to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as
> soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power
> supply.

And what happens when you take the (presumably dead because it did its
job) surge-suppressor out of the circuit?

>
>
>> So are socket adaptors with timers. I
>> didn't find any that did both in my brief search, but combining them
>> would not be hard.
>
> I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
> electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
> I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
> the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.

All the ones I'm aware of are a pretty much mechanical thing with 2-4
pips that toggle a switch as the timer rotates.

I mean, you can get more expensive, but why?

For example, this thing:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/TORK-15-Amp-24-Hour-Mechanical-Plug-In-1-Grounded-Outlet-Timer-402B/207151445

(HD breadcrumbs -> Home -> Electrical -> Wiring Devices & Light Controls
- -> Timers)

>
>
>> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a UPS,
>> which will have surge protection.
>
> Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
> appliances, TV, microwave,... I was told even the refrigerator has
> crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues here,
> so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the cause.
> I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

If surges are such that normal "big dumb appliances" are running into
trouble, I'd honestly call an electrician and get one of the whole-home
suppressors integrated into my panel.

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--
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On 3/29/2022 3:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Rickster wrote:
>> [...]
>> Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to
>> protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>
> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
> get burned out, they need replaced).

"UPS" is too general a specification.

Most UPSs operate offline. As such, the "protection" available to the
load is little more than a surge suppressor when the mains power is
available.

An *online* UPS (typically) affords more protection as the inverter
is supplying the load at all times -- even when the mains are available.

A FERRUPS would be more ideal due to inherent design characteristics.
But, they tend to be heavier/bulkier. I had a 5KVA unit and it was
about the size of a small dishwasher. <frown> By contrast, I have
a 5KVA "conventional" UPS that is about the size of a (very) large
bread box -- exclusive of battery pack (which, of course, is HUGE
given the need to support such a large load for a significant amount
of time)

I used a "Lion Tamer" (pun likely intended!) for some years before my power
needs and the number of loads serviced made a single-point solution
impractical. A CVT would be a win assuming the load isn't overly reactive.

On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 5:00:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
> On 2022/03/29 1:12 p.m., Rickster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:32:23 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
> >> On 2022/03/29 10:50 a.m., Rickster wrote:
> >>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
> >>>
> >>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
> >>>
> >> What about using a timer such as used for saunas or fans, etc.? I'm sure
> >> you can find others. Get a real one, not an Amazon electrocution clone..
> >>
> >> Home Depot for example:
> >>
> >> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/categories/building-materials/electrical/dimmers-switches-and-outlets/timer-switches.html
> >
> > Wow! Home depot won't even let me look at that page. I'm in Puerto Rico at the moment. lol
> >
> > Yes, I've been looking at these, but I was hoping to find something ready to use rather than an erector set. My main complaint about building something is trying to make the box look nice. I found and outlet strip with a 6 ft, 14/3 cord. Add a box in the middle with this timer switch and the job is done.
> >
> > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sun-Joe-6-ft-14-3-Indoor-Outdoor-3-Outlet-Extension-Cord-White-PJ3STR06-143-WHT/311927553
> >
> > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-20-Amp-60-Minute-In-Wall-Spring-Wound-Countdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996#overlay
> >
> > The timer is sold locally. The outlet strip would need to be shipped to the store in Virginia or Maryland and brought to PR in my bags. The outlet strip is decent enough looking, but most switch boxes are a dog's lunch. It would also need to have good strain relief for the two cables.
> >
> Have you looked at these - bottom of page - Time Delay Relays?
>
> https://www.mcmaster.com/octal-relays/
>
> You could use an old ceramic or bakelite tube socket and mount that in
> your power bar.

I have no idea what you think I am looking for. But this isn't it. Thanks for the try though.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
>>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
>>> problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
>>> One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
>>> not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
>>> eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
>>> could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
>>> mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
>>> put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>>>
>>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
>>> will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
>>> appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
>>> worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
>>> damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
>>> what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
>>> value is less than say, $5,000?
>>>
>>>
>> I must be missing something.
>
> I agree with that.
>
>
>> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
>> cheap.
>
> I don't agree with that.

I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.

I don't know the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more
variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
they will be designed to protect against that.

> Most "surge" protectors are nearly
> worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
> stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
> started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
> of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
> started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
> code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
> power supply.
>

Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
missing something here - your secret specifications.

>
>> So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
>> in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.
>
> I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
> electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
> I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
> the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.
>

Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck
integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
Problem solved.

>
>> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
>> UPS, which will have surge protection.
>
> Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
> appliances, TV, microwave,...

Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
never heard them considered "computer equipment".

People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.

> I was told even the refrigerator has
> crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
> here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
> cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.
>

On 29/03/2022 19:14, Rich S wrote:
> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>
> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)

I doubt if the isolation provided by a simple timer switch will stop a
lightning strike jumping across the contacts. I have seen 1" sparks!

> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
>
> Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
> They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
> I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough?
> "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!"
> Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
> "As much as you can afford, of course!"

Is it surges or brownouts or repeated reconnects doing the damage?

I have never yet seen a PC or a monitor fail and a close lightning
strike last year I had a calorific spark jump from my scanner to the
ADSL router. To my absolute amazement both survived unscathed. Various
neighbours phones and mains powered alarm clocks were toast though.

What can do a lot of damage is repeated retries of distribution circuit
breakers on for a couple of seconds and then off again several times
when there is an intermittent or borderline fault.

A relay to ensure stuff stays off after a powercut might help you a lot.

> I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
> I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.

That is pretty much all I have semi industrial grade 6 way rail in an
extruded aluminium case and protecting everything of any value. It has a
MOV is working indicator which so far has usually stayed lit every time.
Officially it has no user replaceable parts but Rapid stock them....

> For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
> with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
> high- and low-line voltage situations.
> Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
> So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
> how much power
> their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
> for the UPS.

A UPS is ideal since that will handle all situations including mains
failure. I know for a fact that my PC will run on pretty much anything
between 100-250v ac 50Hz. I only realised that the mains had lost a
complete phase (not mine) when I tried to make a cup of coffee and the
last remaining filament bulb in the house dimmed noticeably. It took
forever to boil a kettle!

LED lamps and SMPSU just draw ever more current as the voltage dips.

I suspect US domestic market gear will croak at a much lower voltage
than Japanese or UK PSUs and some of it doesn't get on with 50Hz mains
either (they cut the transformer tolerances *that* fine).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 30/03/2022 04:50, Rickster wrote:
> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>
> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>

I think a mechanical timer in the power cable of a computer sounds like
a PITA, since it is bound to turn off just before you save some
important document.

You could make a motor-generator set with a foot-long plastic shaft
between them. That should prevent damage to anything other than the
motor, even in a thunderstorm, though it will have significant losses
all the time. If you make sure it is noisy, someone might remember to
turn it off.

About 25 years ago I made a thing with a wall-wart plugged into the same
power strip as the PC and peripherals and a buzzer built into the case
of the PC. It had some simple logic and a timer so that it would make a
very annoying noise after a few seconds if the wall-wart was powered
without the PC being powered (i.e. when they shut down the computer but
failed to turn off everything at the wall afterwards). It would also
make the annoying noise if the PC was turned on without the wall wart
being powered (to discourage anyone defeating the alarm by unplugging
the wall wart). It mostly did achieve the desired behaviour, but was
generally disliked by everyone who used that computer.

On 3/30/2022 12:38 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 19:14, Rich S wrote:
>> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>>
>> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost
>> accrued if out of service)
>
> I doubt if the isolation provided by a simple timer switch will stop a
> lightning strike jumping across the contacts. I have seen 1" sparks!

That will depend on the nature of the distribution network, age of equipment,
how the lines are physically routed, etc.

I'd make the same argument re: a solid-state switch; unless you can
characterize things more fully, you may see the switch fail.

>> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
>>
>> Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are
>> under $100 USD.
>> They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
>> I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough?
>> "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!"
>> Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
>> "As much as you can afford, of course!"
>
> Is it surges or brownouts or repeated reconnects doing the damage?
>
> I have never yet seen a PC or a monitor fail and a close lightning strike last
> year I had a calorific spark jump from my scanner to the ADSL router. To my
> absolute amazement both survived unscathed. Various neighbours phones and mains
> powered alarm clocks were toast though.

Many new "electronic" (wired) phones have only nominal protection from
fast/large transients. Often a pair of zeners acting as a clamp (and
if they fail shorted, the line is busied out).

> What can do a lot of damage is repeated retries of distribution circuit
> breakers on for a couple of seconds and then off again several times when there
> is an intermittent or borderline fault.
>
> A relay to ensure stuff stays off after a powercut might help you a lot.

When I lived in the midwest, outages weren't particularly "clean". You'd
often get a warning flicker/brownout and, if you were on your toes, you'd
unplug anything that didn't like the on-off-on-off-on-off-on-...OFF that
would follow. (took me some time to realize the value of a UPS!)

> A UPS is ideal since that will handle all situations including mains failure. I
> know for a fact that my PC will run on pretty much anything between 100-250v ac
> 50Hz. I only realised that the mains had lost a complete phase (not mine) when
> I tried to make a cup of coffee and the last remaining filament bulb in the
> house dimmed noticeably. It took forever to boil a kettle!
>
> LED lamps and SMPSU just draw ever more current as the voltage dips.
>
> I suspect US domestic market gear will croak at a much lower voltage than
> Japanese or UK PSUs and some of it doesn't get on with 50Hz mains either (they
> cut the transformer tolerances *that* fine).

A lot depends on the design of the PSU *and* it's load. E.g., my PCs have
1100W power supplies but aren't loaded anywhere near that much (the UPS on
the workstation I'm presently using claims ~200W... quite a pig by today's
standards but that's got a pair of GPUs and several HBAs inside -- along with
4 rust spindles). OTOH, when all the cores are running at 100% load factor
and the GPUs are actually *doing* work, that figure climbs noticeably!

But, while some of my other SFF/USFF boxes get annoyed at power glitches, these
*tend* not to notice.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> >> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
> >>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
> >>> problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
> >>> One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
> >>> not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
> >>> eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
> >>> could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
> >>> mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
> >>> put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
> >>>
> >>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
> >>> will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
> >>> appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
> >>> worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
> >>> damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
> >>> what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
> >>> value is less than say, $5,000?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I must be missing something.
> >
> > I agree with that.
> >
> >
> >> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
> >> cheap.
> >
> > I don't agree with that.
> I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
> found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.
>
> I don't know

Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.

> the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
> have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
> sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more
> variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
> they will be designed to protect against that.

No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc passed through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected equipment against damage.

With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.

> > Most "surge" protectors are nearly
> > worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
> > stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
> > started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
> > of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
> > started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
> > code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
> > power supply.
> >
> Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
> dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
> else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
> based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
> protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
> missing something here - your secret specifications.

Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting silly ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.

> >> So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
> >> in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.
> >
> > I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
> > electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
> > I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
> > the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.
> >
> Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
> egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck
> integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
> whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
> Problem solved.

Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?

> >> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
> >> UPS, which will have surge protection.
> >
> > Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
> > appliances, TV, microwave,...
> Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
> never heard them considered "computer equipment".
>
> People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
> If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
> power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea..
> > I was told even the refrigerator has
> > crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
> > here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
> > cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.

Yes, we are done here.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 30/03/2022 17:11, Rickster wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>> On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
>>>>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
>>>>> problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
>>>>> One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
>>>>> not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
>>>>> eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
>>>>> could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
>>>>> mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
>>>>> put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
>>>>> will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
>>>>> appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
>>>>> worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
>>>>> damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
>>>>> what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
>>>>> value is less than say, $5,000?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I must be missing something.
>>>
>>> I agree with that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
>>>> cheap.
>>>
>>> I don't agree with that.
>> I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
>> found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.
>>
>> I don't know
>
> Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.
>
>
>> the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
>> have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
>> sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more
>> variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
>> they will be designed to protect against that.
>
> No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc passed through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected equipment against damage.
>
> With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.
>
>

OK, so you want a surge protector but you won't buy anything called a
"surge protector" because they are all useless.

>>> Most "surge" protectors are nearly
>>> worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
>>> stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
>>> started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
>>> of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
>>> started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
>>> code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
>>> power supply.
>>>
>> Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
>> dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
>> else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
>> based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
>> protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
>> missing something here - your secret specifications.
>
> Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting silly ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.
>

You told us your microwave broke. You didn't say it was 8 months old,
or that you have "decades of history" (whatever that might mean). You
said it broke, and you gave /zero/ information about why you leapt to
the conclusion that it was a worthless surge protector. And /I/ am the
one being difficult for asking questions!

>
>>>> So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
>>>> in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.
>>>
>>> I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
>>> electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
>>> I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
>>> the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.
>>>
>> Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
>> egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck
>> integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
>> whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
>> Problem solved.
>
> Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?
>

You posted one link (as far as I noticed) to a mechanical timer. You've
given no clear indication as to why you want it to be /mechanical/.

>
>>>> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
>>>> UPS, which will have surge protection.
>>>
>>> Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
>>> appliances, TV, microwave,...
>> Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
>> never heard them considered "computer equipment".
>>
>> People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
>> If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
>> power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.
>>> I was told even the refrigerator has
>>> crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
>>> here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
>>> cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.
>
> Yes, we are done here.
>

We are seeing the usual pattern for your posts looking for information
or help. You give a fraction of the information people might find
useful, with little detail and even less idea about why you want one
solution and reject others. Then you jump and people who try to help,
and argue with them or insult them for failing to read your mind.

It's a good job posters in this group either have memories like
goldfish, or an obsessive need to try to help people, or you'd get no
replies at all.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 11:44:51 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> On 30/03/2022 17:11, Rickster wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 2:39:25 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> >> On 29/03/2022 22:22, Rickster wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> >>>> On 29/03/2022 19:50, Rickster wrote:
> >>>>> This post has two parts, maybe two solutions to one problem. The
> >>>>> problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics.
> >>>>> One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when
> >>>>> not in use. But people often forget to turn it off, so stuff
> >>>>> eventually gets fried. To resolve this an egg timer type switch
> >>>>> could be used, but I can't find one inline. There's no place to
> >>>>> mount one in the wall. Of course, a wall mounted unit could be
> >>>>> put in a box with cables, but it's not terribly attractive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector that
> >>>>> will actually arrest the surge and prevent damage to the
> >>>>> appliances. I know the little outlet strips are pretty much
> >>>>> worthless. I'm wondering what is required to actually prevent
> >>>>> damage to appliances. Of course that depends on the surge, but
> >>>>> what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the
> >>>>> value is less than say, $5,000?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> I must be missing something.
> >>>
> >>> I agree with that.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet strips are common and
> >>>> cheap.
> >>>
> >>> I don't agree with that.
> >> I had a quick look at the equivalent of "Home Depot" here in Norway. I
> >> found dozens, with prices of about $10 upwards.
> >>
> >> I don't know
> >
> > Yes, that's my point. You can call these "surge protectors", but they have no rating and even if they have a rating, there's no reason to believe any numbers you read. They are worthless junk and are not surge protectors.
> >
> >
> >> the ratings or how big surges they protect against. We
> >> have extremely stable and reliable power in Norway, and I guess they
> >> sell devices aimed at the local market rather than for places with more
> >> variable power. Lightning is probably the main cause of surges here, so
> >> they will be designed to protect against that.
> >
> > No, they are designed to make a profit. There is zero accountability for their "surge protector" claims, so they use the cheapest, most minimal components that will not protect anything. Lightning is the hardest surge to protect against as it has a hugely wide range of surge. I used to repair burglar alarms and one system had developed opens in the perimeter loop every place where the wire went through the same hole drilled in the joist as the AC wiring. There was enough voltage that an arc passed through both insulations and enough current to melt the perimeter wire in two forming little balls on the ends of the broken wires. The panel was fried of course. Any surge protector you can buy for $5 would have been destroyed and not protected equipment against damage.
> >
> > With no real way to compare surge protectors and no knowledge of what rating is required, the best bet is to disconnect the appliance.
> >
> >
> OK, so you want a surge protector but you won't buy anything called a
> "surge protector" because they are all useless.

You said, $10. That's not a surge protector. That's an outlet strip regardless of what moniker they put on it.

> >>> Most "surge" protectors are nearly
> >>> worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it
> >>> stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I
> >>> started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries
> >>> of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but
> >>> started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error
> >>> code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the
> >>> power supply.
> >>>
> >> Your microwave broke. It happens. We have no idea if it was a
> >> dried-out capacitor, a worn out part, a manufacturing fault, or anything
> >> else, where a power surge might have been the last straw. But okay,
> >> based on your microwave you want a surge protector but not the surge
> >> protector that you had on the microwave. Yes, I think we are all
> >> missing something here - your secret specifications.
> >
> > Sometimes it is very hard to discuss things with you because you ignore so much of what is provided. There is decades of history behind this. You are in no position to argue that cap dried up in an 8 month old microwave. Please just stop posting silly ideas and assuming others know nothing, such as the idea that you can buy "surge protectors" that are worth anything for just $10. They are not surge protectors, they are outlet strips.
> >
> You told us your microwave broke. You didn't say it was 8 months old,
> or that you have "decades of history" (whatever that might mean). You
> said it broke, and you gave /zero/ information about why you leapt to
> the conclusion that it was a worthless surge protector. And /I/ am the
> one being difficult for asking questions!

I don't know why you would assume the OP is an idiot and knows nothing about "surge protectors" that have been around for decades, posing as useful equipment, but actually being pretty much worthless. Because such surge events are normally very sporadic, people can buy them and think that their equipment has been protected for the last 10 years. In reality, there simply have been no surges that would damage the equipment in the first place.

> >>>> So are socket adaptors with timers. I didn't find any that did both
> >>>> in my brief search, but combining them would not be hard.
> >>>
> >>> I've found no socket adapters that use a mechanical timer. Why add
> >>> electronics that is overkill, harder to use and prone to the failure
> >>> I'm trying to protect against? A simple mechanical egg type timer is
> >>> the perfect solution, just not in the appropriate form factor.
> >>>
> >> Why use a mechanical timer when an electronic one will work? (And the
> >> egg timer I have is a little "hour glass" with falling sand - good luck
> >> integrating that technology with a socket!). Go to your Home Depot, or
> >> whatever, and buy a timer socket that supports the range you need.
> >> Problem solved.
> >
> > Ok, I think we are done here. If you don't even know what sort of mechanical timer I'm talking about, you must live in a cave. Didn't I post links?
> >
> You posted one link (as far as I noticed) to a mechanical timer. You've
> given no clear indication as to why you want it to be /mechanical/.

I didn't think it was required to point out that an electronic timer would be subject to the same surges the electronic equipment is to be protected from. Isn't that very obvious??? If you saw the link to the mechanical timer, what is then unclear? I even explained why the electronic timer is less desirable, but you seem to have ignored that content.

> >>>> Computer equipment of significant value is usually connected to a
> >>>> UPS, which will have surge protection.
> >>>
> >>> Ok, lower the value to $1,000 then. We are talking about house hold
> >>> appliances, TV, microwave,...
> >> Microwaves may be essential appliances for computer users, but I've
> >> never heard them considered "computer equipment".
> >>
> >> People use UPS's for computers because they don't like random shutdowns.
> >> If you live in an area that experiences a lot of lightning or other
> >> power surges, a surge protector on your expensive TV might be a good idea.
> >>> I was told even the refrigerator has
> >>> crapped out and blamed on surges. I know there are power issues
> >>> here, so I'm not going to argue with anyone they are wrong about the
> >>> cause. I'm trying to help, not argue with them.
> >
> > Yes, we are done here.
> >
> We are seeing the usual pattern for your posts looking for information
> or help. You give a fraction of the information people might find
> useful, with little detail and even less idea about why you want one
> solution and reject others. Then you jump and people who try to help,
> and argue with them or insult them for failing to read your mind.

On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>
> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)
>
> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.

Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
but very useful for some.

>
> Most people, would buy a "surge protector" power strip. Since prices are under $100 USD.
> They are subcategorized by the "Joule rating"
> I wonder how many consumers know what that means, and how much is enough?
> "3330-joule surge protection rating – More joules mean more protection!"
> Ah, OK. Thanks. But how much do *I* need?
> "As much as you can afford, of course!"

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is
<http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>
"How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE. (And in a near miracle it
is free.) Some of the information is specific to the US.

Starting pg 25 talks about joule rating. In the US there is no
definition for a suppressor joule rating. As a result some manufacturers
use a deceptive rating which puts honest manufacturers at a
disadvantage, so some manufacturers do not provide a joule rating.

The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also see
joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)

When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)

>
> I assume the manufacturers just use whatever the device (MOV) inside is rated for.
> I would look for a model that offers lifetime warranty, insurance and support.
>
> For Industrial grade protection, I'd step up to a UPS (uninterruptible power supply)
> with integrated surge protection. A better choice, also because it will manage both long-term
> high- and low-line voltage situations.

UPSs that are not always on-line don't themselves provide surge
protection other than the separate circuit. Overvoltage (IEEE guide pg
15) can rapidly destroy surge suppressors.

> Subcategorized by "VA" (~ continuous power deliverable).
> So, what to buy, is closer to being answerable for average person, if they know about
> how much power
> their PC equipment is drawing. Then I would derate, double that total when shopping
> for the UPS.
>
> cheers, RS
>
>
>
>
>

On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

>
>> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
>> strips are common and cheap.
>
> I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.
>

The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge'
protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.

MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a
disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
(or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it
failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?

Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>
> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
> get burned out, they need replaced).
>

I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can reach MOVs in a
plug-in suppressor (with no service panel suppressor). Branch circuits
were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10kA
(which is the maximum probable surge). The maximum energy was a
surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.
Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. (This
is US, and there are a couple features that may be different. One is the
neutral-ground bond in services. The other is arc-over described below.)

There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V
there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After
the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the
enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps
most of the incoming surge energy to earth. (This would also limit the
voltage across switch contacts.)

The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge
is a very short event. That means the current components are relatively
high frequency. That means the wire inductance is more important than
the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current
to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs.

On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>
>> A UPS, such as from APC.  Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>
>
> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their
tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial grade
surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by allowing the
much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal adapter to fry.

It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.
>
> The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can reach MOVs in a
> plug-in suppressor (with no service panel suppressor). Branch circuits
> were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10kA
> (which is the maximum probable surge). The maximum energy was a
> surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less.
> Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. (This
> is US, and there are a couple features that may be different. One is the
> neutral-ground bond in services. The other is arc-over described below.)
>
> There are 2 reasons the energy is so small. One is that at about 6,000V
> there is arc-over from the service panel busbars to the enclosure. After
> the arc is established the voltage is hundreds of volts. Since the
> enclosure/ground/neutral are connected to the earthing system that dumps
> most of the incoming surge energy to earth. (This would also limit the
> voltage across switch contacts.)
>
> The second reason is the impedance of the branch circuit wiring. A surge
> is a very short event. That means the current components are relatively
> high frequency. That means the wire inductance is more important than
> the resistance. The branch circuit impedance greatly limits the current
> to the MOVs, which greatly limits the energy that can make it to the MOVs.

I'd say they mostly do work, but you can still get black swan events
where they manage not to stop damage to the things that they are
supposed to protect. I have surge protection on my kit...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:
> On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>
>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>
>>
>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>
> They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their
> tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial grade
> surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by allowing the
> much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal adapter to fry.
>
> It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
> copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
> and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.

Respect for the designers of those mountaintop radio relays that
get hit by lightning all the time and keep working nevertheless.

Jeroen Belleman

On 31/03/2022 10:29, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 31/03/2022 06:34, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A UPS, such as from APC.  Or one of those surge suppressor bars
>>>> (but, as
>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>
>> They last until they encounter a surge that is close to or above their
>> tolerance. They don't always work though. I have known industrial
>> grade surge suppression for mainframe terminals save itself by
>> allowing the much more expensive I/O drivers on cards in the terminal
>> adapter to fry.
>>
>> It was a fairly impressive looking thing big chunk of well earthed
>> copper but against the direct hit to the building strike which entered
>> and destroyed the phone wiring it made not one jot of difference.
>
>
> Respect for the designers of those mountaintop radio relays that
> get hit by lightning all the time and keep working nevertheless.

Indeed! I used to live within sight of such a tall mast for atmospheric
research in Tsukuba. One day it took a direct hit from a major summer
thunderstorm while I was watching. It was just like the firing of the
Death Star in Starwars with three bolts from clouds above it joining to
one and crashing down onto the top. It was still OK afterwards.

Knocked out for just a couple of seconds but otherwise OK.

I narrowly missed seeing ball lightning once - it had the temerity to
appear in a university physics department and attacked the photocopier.

Shareable direct link to short article in Nature "Ball of Fire?":
https://rdcu.be/cKhqY

Actual article in Nature (subscribers only)
www.nature.com/articles/298702b0.epdf

--
Regards,
Martin Brown