On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>>>>> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>>>
>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>>
>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>
>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>
>Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

Post a picture and we can discuss it.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:53:07 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>
>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>
>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>
>>> This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>>
>> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>>
>>> If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>>>
>>> Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>>
>> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>
> Like a car? No point?

A car is nothing like a cooling system.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>>>>>> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>>>
>>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>>
>>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>>
>> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>
> Post a picture and we can discuss it.

It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:49:06 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:42:17 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> >> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> >>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
> >>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
> >>>> a huge air blast.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
> >>
> >> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
> >
> >I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
> I have a skived copper heat sink, the one I posted a pic of. It got
> bashed some and some fins got bent. It took some muscle and pliers to
> straighten them out.
>
> Get one. Blow some air on it and see if the fins bend.
>
> The skived fins on a copper CPU cooler seem to be about 10 to 15 mils
> thick. Look to be some copper alloy, harder than pure copper. Pure
> copper and aluminum are both nasty to machine, and the alloys fix that
> but wreck the thermal and electrical conductivity.

"Wreck" is a pejorative term. The thermal conductivity is reduced compared to a heat sink that is very hard to make, and so very expensive. Did the heat sink work as advertised?

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
> >> >>
> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
> >> >>
> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
> >> >
> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
> >>
> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
> >>
> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
> >>
> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
> >
> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?

It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> > <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> >>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> >>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
> >>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
> >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
> >>>>
> >>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
> >>>
> >>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
> >>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
> >>
> >> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
> >
> > Post a picture and we can discuss it.
> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
> news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
>>> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>> The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
>>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
>>>>> contact.
>>>>
>>>> The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
>>>> content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
>>>> selecting-a-heat-sink/>
>>>>
>>>> Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
>>>> speed
>>>> forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.
>>>
>>>
>>> Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
>>> closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
>>> will go around.
>>>
>>> The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
>>> volumetric air flow will approach zero.
>>>
>>> My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.
>>
>> And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
>> resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
>> restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
>> cooling.
>>
>> There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
>> aluminum brick is pretty bad.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
> and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
> again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
> means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
> get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
> moved. It's a bucket brigade.

I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin
spacing (fewer fins).

Clifford Heath

On 18/4/22 1:49 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
> I always wanted to make an entire PC immersed in dielectric fluid
> <https://econtroldevices.com/shop/3m-fc-40-fluorinert-electronic-
> liquid-20kg/>
>
> But it too has to be moving to carry the heat away.

I read that the Cray supercomputers were flooded in liquid Freon, pumped
through - 100kW of cooling to remove 100kW of heating.

Clifford Heath

John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>
>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>
>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>
>>> This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>>
>> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>>
>>> If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>>>
>>> Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>>
>> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>
> Like a car? No point?

The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Phil Hobbs wrote:
===============

>
> The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)
>

** The only genuinely water cooled engines are those fitted to boats.

....... Phil

Phil Hobbs wrote:

> John Larkin wrote:
>> "Commander Kinsey" wrote:
>>> Ricky wrote:
>>>> bitrex wrote:

>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>
>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>
>>>> This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus
>>>> on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose
>>>> far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately
>>>> there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a
>>>> CPU/GPU directly.
>>>
>>> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>>>
>>>> If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat
>>>> block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger
>>>> fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>>>>
>>>> Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy
>>>> bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember
>>>> discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage
>>>> where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass
>>>> of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran
>>>> the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose
>>>> he still had one of those.
>>>
>>> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to
>>> a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water
>>> tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling
>>> if you still have fans!
>>
>> Like a car? No point?
>
> The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

Now even medium powered motorcycles are watercooled.

And all the big ones look like Harleys.

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:14:36 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> > jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
> > news:thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com:
> >
> >> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
> >> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
> >>> DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>>> news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:
> >>>>
> >>>>> The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
> >>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
> >>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
> >>>>> contact.
> >>>>
> >>>> The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".
> >>>>
> >>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
> >>>> content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>
> >>>>
> >>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
> >>>> selecting-a-heat-sink/>
> >>>>
> >>>> Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
> >>>> speed
> >>>> forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
> >>> closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
> >>> will go around.
> >>>
> >>> The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
> >>> volumetric air flow will approach zero.
> >>>
> >>> My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
> >>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.
> >>
> >> And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
> >> resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
> >> restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
> >> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
> >> cooling.
> >>
> >> There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
> >> aluminum brick is pretty bad.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
> > and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
> > again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
> > means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
> > get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
> > moved. It's a bucket brigade.
>
> I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
> easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin
> spacing (fewer fins).

I don't think you need to add waves to get turbulence. What is important is turbulence at the surface of the fin. The skived fins already have a rough surface that helps to disturb the boundary layer. Adding surface irregularities that are too large causes areas with little air flow.

The trade off is fewer fins require thicker fins to better conduct the heat in the metal as each fin has to carry more heat. Thinner fins each carry less heat, so they don't need as much air to carry the heat off each fin, so more narrow spacing works well.
Bottom line is, one limitation in the heat flow is the surface area. Rough, smooth, wavy, whatever. It needs enough surface to transfer the heat by contact. Generally, more is better since this is a point of very low conductivity, high resistance per unit area.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 10:14:29 +1000, Clifford Heath
<no.spam@please.net> wrote:

>On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>> news:thfo5ht952906bo9837snjolpjfd2lsc00@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
>>>> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27-be95-401418cc7e54n@googlegroups.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
>>>>>> coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
>>>>>> and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
>>>>>> contact.
>>>>>
>>>>> The word(s) for today is "boundary layer".
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
>>>>> content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
>>>>> selecting-a-heat-sink/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
>>>>> speed
>>>>> forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
>>>> closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
>>>> will go around.
>>>>
>>>> The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
>>>> volumetric air flow will approach zero.
>>>>
>>>> My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
>>>> flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.
>>>
>>> And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
>>> resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
>>> restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
>>> is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
>>> cooling.
>>>
>>> There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
>>> aluminum brick is pretty bad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
>> and the sink was "bristling" with them. Probably pretty good, but
>> again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
>> means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
>> get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
>> moved. It's a bucket brigade.
>
>I'm surprised they don't skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
>easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin
>spacing (fewer fins).
>
>Clifford Heath

A wavy fin would be messy to skive. The right angle at the root of
each blade would be wavy too. I'd expect things to break.

The process is crazy enough already!

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>> >> >
>> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
>> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
>> >>
>> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
>> >>
>> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
>> >>
>> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
>> >
>> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
>> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
>
> What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?

Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

> It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.

I refuse to answer you twice. See above.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> > <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>> >>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>> >>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>> >>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>> >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>> >>>
>> >>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>> >>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>> >>
>> >> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>> >
>> > Post a picture and we can discuss it.
>> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.
>
> A picture is worth 1,000 words.

Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:43:23 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:53:54 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>
>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>
>>>> This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>>>
>>> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>>>
>>>> If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>>>>
>>>> Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>>>
>>> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>>
>> Like a car? No point?
>
> The old Beetle was air-cooled. Should be good enough for anyone. ;)

All cars are air cooled, what do you think that fan at the front does?

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> > <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> >>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>> >>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>> >>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>> >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>>> >>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>>> >>
>>> >> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>>> >
>>> > Post a picture and we can discuss it.
>>> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.
>>
>> A picture is worth 1,000 words.
>
>Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
>https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
> >> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
> >> >>
> >> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
> >> >>
> >> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
> >> >>
> >> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
> >
> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
> > It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it..
> I refuse to answer you twice. See above.

If you don't want to converse, what are you after?

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
> >> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
> >> >>
> >> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
> >> >>
> >> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
> >> >>
> >> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
> >
> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> > <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>> >>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>> >>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>> >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>>>> >>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>>>> >
>>>> > Post a picture and we can discuss it.
>>>> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.
>>>
>>> A picture is worth 1,000 words.
>>
>> Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
>> https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg
>
> Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:48:56 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
>> >> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
>> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
>> >
>> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>> > It has all been said in this thread already. Did you miss it? Try starting at the beginning and reading more slowly this time so you don't miss it.
>> I refuse to answer you twice. See above.
>
> If you don't want to converse, what are you after?

I did converse, did you not read the other line only two lines up? I simply objected to you repeating yourself.

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
>> >> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
>> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
>> >
>> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>
> It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?

It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
>>bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>
>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>
>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>
>>Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>
> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
> a huge air blast.

They look fine to me. Assuming the use is in something like a 1U server,
that style works fine to over 200 watts per heatsink that's less than
3"x3"x1". Fancier heatsinks are copper, some even add a bonus heat pipe on
the mounting surface to spread heat to the rest of the heatsink from the
center, where the hot thing usually is.

Blowing air at 90 degrees into a heatsink is some 1990s nonsense.

Current server designs have far simple air paths than old machines, and
even dissipate more power. The days of the pop can sized heatsinks on
stuff like a PA-RISC processor is long over. Getting heat out of the die
and package is part of the problem due to size these days. Certains parts
of a processor can be hitting thermal limits while other parts nearby are
just fine. It's sort of bizarre actually.

The real magic seems to be in the fans that are available now. They're
real powerful, real small and the top shelf ones last a really really long
time.

On 2022-04-18 23:55, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:44:12 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>
>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>
>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>
> You mean like aluminum foil? They don't look that thin. They seem to stand up to the blade well when it pushes them straight up. More like card stock, which in aluminum, is not all that flexible. The metal used in radiators was very thin. It stood up to a bit of abuse because it was metal. Now they use plastic, which amazed me they could get to work well!
>
> I think you are being a bit disingenuous.

I have seen many radiators in AC conditioners that are almost paper thin
(or razor blade thin, if you prefer), and they are very easy to damage.
In fact, they often were already damaged and sections of the units were
not working because being bent against one another they blocked the air
flow.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:54:38 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:44:00 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:20:25 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:00:34 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 5:54:03 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 22:05:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> I thought they were extruded, but no!
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Like carving a turkey dinner
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > This gets you more fins for better transfer to the air. People focus on silly points like diamond heat sink grease, when they often lose far more performance at other points in the heat path. Ultimately there is a limit on how larger a heat sink you can attach to a CPU/GPU directly.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I have a 6 inch cube attached to mine.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > If size and cost are not an issue, heat pipes to connect the heat block on the CPU/GPU to a much larger thermal air interface. Bigger fins, bigger fan and much better performance.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Then water cooling can get even better performance, and the noisy bits can be somewhere else, even in another room. I remember discussing this with a guy who ran the tubes to a drum in his garage where he didn't even need to use an air interface. The thermal mass of the drum was good enough to absorb the heat for the time he ran the computer. Zero noise other than the power supply fan, I suppose he still had one of those.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Water cooling manufacturers have lost the plot, they move the water to a heatsink wtih.... fans! The one I had years ago had a huge water tower which cooled by convection. There's no point in water cooling if you still have fans!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Lol! You are so funny sometimes. You remind me of DLUNU. Unable to even understand what you've read.
> >> >> >> You're not right in the head, let me make it simple for you:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This is a typical water cooling arrangement: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/corsair_cw_9060014_ww_hydro_series_h110_280mm_1094578.jpg
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Notice how the fans will be only a foot away from where they would be anyway. So utterly pointless. All they've done is introduce another point of failure, the pump. Oh and the leaks.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So er... what was I read wrong?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't know what you read wrong. What did you read? Maybe nothing.
> >> >> You wrote nothing to explain the point of the image I just showed you.
> >> >
> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
> >
> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.

You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm..

I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.

As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209