On 1/9/2024 7:52 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> Presumably they do clean the pavement from time to time? If so man + cart
> will cope with most segregated cycle lanes.

Yes, in some municipalities they do clean the bike lanes, whether
segregated or not. I'm sure that in some others they do not.

We have one multi-use, hard-packed trail, near my house and if it's
really muddy the City closes it. The water district did not want to
allow an asphalt or concrete trail right next to a creek, they wanted a
permeable surface. Other multi-use trails close to a creek are allowed,
but there needs to be sufficient distance between the trail and the
creek for most of the length of the trail. In the future, if money is
available, the hard pack could be replaced by porous pavers or porous
asphalt.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 7:52 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Presumably they do clean the pavement from time to time? If so man + cart
>> will cope with most segregated cycle lanes.
>
> Yes, in some municipalities they do clean the bike lanes, whether
> segregated or not. I'm sure that in some others they do not.
>
> We have one multi-use, hard-packed trail, near my house and if it's
> really muddy the City closes it. The water district did not want to
> allow an asphalt or concrete trail right next to a creek, they wanted a
> permeable surface. Other multi-use trails close to a creek are allowed,
> but there needs to be sufficient distance between the trail and the
> creek for most of the length of the trail. In the future, if money is
> available, the hard pack could be replaced by porous pavers or porous
> asphalt.
>
I was thinking more stuff parallel or on roads/streets than trails I pass
though 3 parks on way to work, which in winter/autumn can get fairly mulchy
which the parks folks clean few times a year.

did see a lad few years back faceplant on his E scooter as impatient with
the dog walkers he attempted to overtake not thinking what would happen
when the scooter wee wheels moved off the tarmac path covered in mulch into
the mulch proper! Ie it stopped dead he didn’t! No harm done bar to ego!

Roger Merriman

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.

A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
can be *more* slippery than ice.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>
> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>
No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
can maintain balance.

Wet slimy tires while yes slippery, absolutely do have grip and even on my
commute with of my parks gets at times covered in slimy leaves, it’s fine
even at speed and though the bends, as the Big Apples are wide and so have
fairly good grip margins, even lightly treaded as they are, the Gravel bike
is even more secure and the MTB it’s a non event.

Proper solid ice is entirely different proposition.

Roger Merriman

Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>
>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>
> No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
> tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
> can maintain balance.

For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
as you go more or less traight and don't brake.

Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>
> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>

A wet steel plate comes pretty near.

Smith

On 1/12/2024 10:06 AM, NFN Smith wrote:
> Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but
>>> fine on
>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>
>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>
>
> A wet steel plate comes pretty near.

Yes. I've seen that demonstrated.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>>
>>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>>
>> No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
>> tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
>> can maintain balance.
>
> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.
>
>
Absolutely, that you can pass with care the black ice not so much, unless
studded I’m told. Snow is fine at least with the MTB/Gravel bikes.

Roger Merriman

NFN Smith <worldoff9908@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>
>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>
>
> A wet steel plate comes pretty near.
>
> Smith
>
For road bikes yes, absolutely I remember even the rear tire shifting ie
drifting slightly I passed over manhole covers in the rain.

It was one of the pleasant surprises with starting to my old MTB to commute
on, and slowly settling it up for that purpose. That the wide tires even
with commute/touring type tires ie 2inch Marathon + or BigApples with there
hardwearing and hard compound tires mean that such things aren’t needed to
be avoided as the tires grip is sufficient.

And yes is more grip with proper MTB tires though ones I use at moment have
a square profile which isnt wildly confidence inspiring on tarmac but no
denying the huge grip levels.

Roger Merriman

On 1/12/2024 9:06 AM, NFN Smith wrote:
> Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice
>>> like, probably not
>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike
>>> admittedly but fine on
>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>
>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of
>> dry leaves
>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>
>
> A wet steel plate comes pretty near.
>
> Smith

+1 to that!
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 5:40:13 a.m. UTC-6, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
> > Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
> >>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
> >>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
> >>
> >> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
> >> can be *more* slippery than ice.
> >>
> > No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
> > tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
> > can maintain balance.
> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.

When I lived in East York (Toronto, Ontario) In winter I'd go to the temporary outdoor ice rink the city parks created. Once there I'd ride my MTB on that ice and experiment with different low air pressures in the tires. I never used studs and I got to be very good a riding long stretches of black ice whilst not falling and also having complete control. Hint, on black ice do NOT use the front brake very hard.

Cheers

On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 23:15:31 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 5:40:13?a.m. UTC-6, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>> > Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>> >>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>> >>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>> >>
>> >> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>> >> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>> >>
>> > No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
>> > tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
>> > can maintain balance.
>> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
>> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
>> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.
>
>When I lived in East York (Toronto, Ontario) In winter I'd go to
the temporary outdoor ice rink the city parks created. Once there I'd
ride my MTB on that ice and experiment with different low air
pressures in the tires. I never used studs and I got to be very good a
riding long stretches of black ice whilst not falling and also having
complete control. Hint, on black ice do NOT use the front brake very
hard.
>
>Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPMLAXafPk4
--
Cheers,

John B.

Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 5:40:13 a.m. UTC-6, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>>>
>>>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>>>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>>>
>>> No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
>>> tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
>>> can maintain balance.
>> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
>> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
>> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.
>
> When I lived in East York (Toronto, Ontario) In winter I'd go to the
> temporary outdoor ice rink the city parks created. Once there I'd ride
> my MTB on that ice and experiment with different low air pressures in the
> tires. I never used studs and I got to be very good a riding long
> stretches of black ice whilst not falling and also having complete
> control. Hint, on black ice do NOT use the front brake very hard.
>
> Cheers
>

That’s been broadly my experience with the MTB that it was quite capable on
ice off road which tends to be not uniformly smooth so the very soft
compounds and mechanical grip can work.

With care it’s okay on flat smooth ice, due to the MTB generally being a
more stable platform and well large squishy tires.

Roger Merriman

Am Tue, 09 Jan 2024 05:28:35 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org>:

>On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 10:58:52 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
><news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>
>>Am Tue, 09 Jan 2024 03:55:51 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>
>>>On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:27:42 -0800 (PST), AK <scientist77017@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>I live on a road with a speed limit of 60 mph.
>>>>
>>>>There is no bike lane.
>>>>
>>>>I chose not to ride my bicycle on a road that has many hills.
>>>>
>>>>I posted on a bike forum and a person from Germany asked if my fear of riding on that road was justified.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that was somewhat humorous.
>>>
>>>I hope you openly laughed at the jerk who apparently thought he/she
>>>was qualified to question your decisions. Unfortunately, such fools as
>>>that lurk in many bicycle forums.
>>
>>What qualifies you to question my preferences, I may ask. Or calling
>>people fools?
>
>I never question anyone's preferences providing they are legal and
>ethical. On the other hand, nobody needs any qualifications to call
>someone a fool.

On the other hand, it is foolish to assume that scaremongering has no
consequences, when it comes to cycling traffic. It does. A single
accident*) in a decade on a similar rural road, for example, prompted a
local politician to launch a campaign for the construction of a cycle
lane alongside that road. These are usually worse than the accompanying
road in more ways than one, but still mandatory.

The road and the very location where the accident happened later is
where my wife was riding in the picture linked below.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220821/DSC01133.jpg>

Fortunately, the authorities had more sense and just ordered a somewhat
lower speed limit for that road.

*) Actually, it didn't even involve bicycles at all.

Two young women were riding their e-bikes on this road when the driver
skidded due to excessive speed and hit and killed one of them as she
skidded across the oncoming lane. She finally came to a halt in the
field next to the road. If there had been a cycle path, the accident
would have been no less fatal.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:24:54 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Am Tue, 09 Jan 2024 05:28:35 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>
>>On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 10:58:52 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
>><news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Am Tue, 09 Jan 2024 03:55:51 -0500 schrieb Catrike Ryder
>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org>:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:27:42 -0800 (PST), AK <scientist77017@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I live on a road with a speed limit of 60 mph.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no bike lane.
>>>>>
>>>>>I chose not to ride my bicycle on a road that has many hills.
>>>>>
>>>>>I posted on a bike forum and a person from Germany asked if my fear of riding on that road was justified.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that was somewhat humorous.
>>>>
>>>>I hope you openly laughed at the jerk who apparently thought he/she
>>>>was qualified to question your decisions. Unfortunately, such fools as
>>>>that lurk in many bicycle forums.
>>>
>>>What qualifies you to question my preferences, I may ask. Or calling
>>>people fools?
>>
>>I never question anyone's preferences providing they are legal and
>>ethical. On the other hand, nobody needs any qualifications to call
>>someone a fool.
>
>On the other hand, it is foolish to assume that scaremongering has no
>consequences, when it comes to cycling traffic. It does. A single
>accident*) in a decade on a similar rural road, for example, prompted a
>local politician to launch a campaign for the construction of a cycle
>lane alongside that road. These are usually worse than the accompanying
>road in more ways than one, but still mandatory.
>
>The road and the very location where the accident happened later is
>where my wife was riding in the picture linked below.
><https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20220821/DSC01133.jpg>
>
>Fortunately, the authorities had more sense and just ordered a somewhat
>lower speed limit for that road.
>
>
>*) Actually, it didn't even involve bicycles at all.
>
>Two young women were riding their e-bikes on this road when the driver
>skidded due to excessive speed and hit and killed one of them as she
>skidded across the oncoming lane. She finally came to a halt in the
>field next to the road. If there had been a cycle path, the accident
>would have been no less fatal.

My issue is not whether or not a particular piece of highway is safe
or whether it should have a seperate bike lane. My issue about someone
questioning another person's preferences when their preferences aren't
affecting anyone but themselves.

On 1/13/2024 1:15 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 5:40:13 a.m. UTC-6, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>>>
>>>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>>>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>>>
>>> No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
>>> tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
>>> can maintain balance.
>> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
>> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
>> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.
>
> When I lived in East York (Toronto, Ontario) In winter I'd go to the temporary outdoor ice rink the city parks created. Once there I'd ride my MTB on that ice and experiment with different low air pressures in the tires. I never used studs and I got to be very good a riding long stretches of black ice whilst not falling and also having complete control. Hint, on black ice do NOT use the front brake very hard.
>
> Cheers

From independent research? I did that too.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:31:34 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 1/9/2024 12:20 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> This said in my experience segregated cycleways don’t need much as
>> bikes/foot don’t produce much it’s motor traffic that does, though town
>> centres clearly do particularly around food and drink type places.
>
>When I talk about sweeping debris from bike facilities, I'm not talking
>about litter thrown around by people. The most common problem I see is
>gravel, sometimes with broken glass mixed in, sometimes quite thick. In
>autumn, the problem is leaves, which are slippery as ice when wet. In
>winter, it's snow and ice.

Two problems that occur all year round can be seen in the following two
pictures. One is obvious, the other probably not.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6224.jpg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6236.jpg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen3/DSCF0054.jpg>

Parts of the road that are not used by cars stay wet for a long time,
even in summer. That's pretty obvious. Less obvious is the danger
caused by cyclists riding closer to dangerous visual obstacles than is
good for them. Car doors are quickly pushed open, pedestrians behind
parked cars step into the lane because there is no dangerous traffic
from their point of view.

There is a story behind the first two pictures, about a even less
obvious trap which severely harmed and almost killed a female cyclist at
a crossing nearby, in my part of the city.

>
>On segregated facilities, there's less gravel and glass unless the
>barriers are the now popular "candlestick" posts - which many advocates
>now claim are inadequate, because they're not concrete. But I know
>several people who were injured rather badly by slipping on slimy mud
>washed onto totally segregated bike paths. And leaves and snow fall
>everywhere including on sidewalks. Few jurisdictions here have the
>machinery, or even the inclination, to clear those from non-motoring
>surfaces.

Most roads that have at least a minimum of car traffic don't need any
cleaning, in that part of the road that is in fact used by those cars,
occasionaly touched by their tires, that is. Paint a stripe for a bike
lane any you've marked a part of the road that is now dirty, dangerous
and sometimes unuseable for safe cycling, most of the time.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On 1/13/2024 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:31:34 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 12:20 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> This said in my experience segregated cycleways don’t need much as
>>> bikes/foot don’t produce much it’s motor traffic that does, though town
>>> centres clearly do particularly around food and drink type places.
>>
>> When I talk about sweeping debris from bike facilities, I'm not talking
>> about litter thrown around by people. The most common problem I see is
>> gravel, sometimes with broken glass mixed in, sometimes quite thick. In
>> autumn, the problem is leaves, which are slippery as ice when wet. In
>> winter, it's snow and ice.
>
>
> Two problems that occur all year round can be seen in the following two
> pictures. One is obvious, the other probably not.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6224.jpg>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6236.jpg>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen3/DSCF0054.jpg>
>
> Parts of the road that are not used by cars stay wet for a long time,
> even in summer. That's pretty obvious. Less obvious is the danger
> caused by cyclists riding closer to dangerous visual obstacles than is
> good for them. Car doors are quickly pushed open, pedestrians behind
> parked cars step into the lane because there is no dangerous traffic
> from their point of view.
>
> There is a story behind the first two pictures, about a even less
> obvious trap which severely harmed and almost killed a female cyclist at
> a crossing nearby, in my part of the city.
>
>>
>> On segregated facilities, there's less gravel and glass unless the
>> barriers are the now popular "candlestick" posts - which many advocates
>> now claim are inadequate, because they're not concrete. But I know
>> several people who were injured rather badly by slipping on slimy mud
>> washed onto totally segregated bike paths. And leaves and snow fall
>> everywhere including on sidewalks. Few jurisdictions here have the
>> machinery, or even the inclination, to clear those from non-motoring
>> surfaces.
>
> Most roads that have at least a minimum of car traffic don't need any
> cleaning, in that part of the road that is in fact used by those cars,
> occasionaly touched by their tires, that is. Paint a stripe for a bike
> lane any you've marked a part of the road that is now dirty, dangerous
> and sometimes unuseable for safe cycling, most of the time.
>

+1, from an obviously experienced cyclist
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:23:37 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 1/9/2024 4:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:27:42 -0800 (PST) schrieb AK
>> <scientist77017@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> On that same road, while driving my car, a truck veered into my lane about 3 feet.
>>
>> So you avoid driving your car on roads with such a speed limit ever
>> since? How do you get around, then?
>
>Good point!
>
>About two weeks ago I had my nearest ever miss of a moving on-road
>collision. I was driving my car to a bike club committee meeting, going
>about 30 mph through a traffic light that had been green for at least 15
>seconds. I was into the intersection before I noticed a Ford sedan
>blasting through his red light from my left. I assume the driver was
>impaired or badly distracted. There was nothing I could do but hit the
>accelerator. I saw his car miss my left rear fender by no more than
>three feet.
>
>I have not given up driving as a result. Neither has my friend, whose
>car was totaled a couple years ago by a woman whose car ran into her. I
>do look a little more carefully when driving through intersections, but
>I suspect I'll forget that habit fairly soon.
>
>> Sure. A similar thing happended to us in when driving our car in the
>> south of France, two years ago. A large concrete mixer tailgated our car
>> with a distance less than one meter at about 80 km/h (speed limit in
>> France outside of villages), even into the village, where a speed limit
>> of 50 km/h applies. Scary. I fled into a side street. Unfortunately, I
>> couldn't see the licence plate due to the distance.
>
>I detest tailgaters. I generally tap the brake lights three times as a
>warning. Then, if they don't back off, I generally begin slowing down.
>This gives me ability to brake more slowly if anything does happen up
>front. More important, it guarantees the tailgater doesn't benefit from
>his assholery.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't have worked for that large concrete mixer
(think: large and heavy truck, double the height and 30 times the weight
of your car) tailgaiting us with distance of less than 1 meter (about
one yard). That asshole would have neither seen the braking lights of
our car, nor be able to react to even the effect of me getting my foot
of the gas pedal.

>
>> Never experienced something similar while riding our bikes.
>
>Actually, I have, although very rarely. I remember one occasion where we
>were on our tandem in a 25 mph no passing zone, and a driver behind us
>tailgated and blew his horn.

That's different. I experienced tailgating and honking more that once
over the decades with my bike, but not while using the car and in a way
that made it absolutely clear that I didn't have the slightest chance of
reacting or even signaling with my brake lights, without risking my (or
in the case described above, our) lives.

>I told my wife to turn around and loudly
>read his license plate number, which she did several times. He backed
>off until there was room to pass.

Good idea, but somewhat special. I rode alone, commuting, most of the
time and still do, more often than not, after we retired.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On 1/13/2024 2:15 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, January 12, 2024 at 5:40:13 a.m. UTC-6, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 12.01.2024 um 12:17 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 03:52:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Leaves absolutely are slippery but certainly not ice like, probably not
>>>>> something to ride though on a narrow tired road bike admittedly but fine on
>>>>> the commute bikes 50mm mildly treaded tires.
>>>>
>>>> A slimy layer of leaves under an innocent-looking pile of dry leaves
>>>> can be *more* slippery than ice.
>>>>
>>> No ice gives or near zero grip and realistically unless you have studded
>>> tires, or it’s a very small patch that you can coast over, as long as you
>>> can maintain balance.
>> For ice we must distiguish between black ice which gives zero grip and
>> varieties of (old) rough ice which provide enough grip to cross as long
>> as you go more or less traight and don't brake.
>
> When I lived in East York (Toronto, Ontario) In winter I'd go to the temporary outdoor ice rink the city parks created. Once there I'd ride my MTB on that ice and experiment with different low air pressures in the tires. I never used studs and I got to be very good a riding long stretches of black ice whilst not falling and also having complete control. Hint, on black ice do NOT use the front brake very hard.

About riding on ice, there's this:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ice.html

and linked from there is this:
https://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

There used to be icebike.org a website devoted entirely to winter
bicycling, but its webmaster passed away and the URL now has nothing to
do with that topic. I suppose the web archive still has its info tucked
away.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/13/2024 9:41 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:31:34 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>>
>>> On 1/9/2024 12:20 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This said in my experience segregated cycleways don’t need much as
>>>> bikes/foot don’t produce much it’s motor traffic that does, though town
>>>> centres clearly do particularly around food and drink type places.
>>>
>>> When I talk about sweeping debris from bike facilities, I'm not talking
>>> about litter thrown around by people. The most common problem I see is
>>> gravel, sometimes with broken glass mixed in, sometimes quite thick. In
>>> autumn, the problem is leaves, which are slippery as ice when wet. In
>>> winter, it's snow and ice.
>>
>>
>> Two problems that occur all year round can be seen in the following two
>> pictures. One is obvious, the other probably not.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6224.jpg>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6236.jpg>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen3/DSCF0054.jpg>
>>
>> Parts of the road that are not used by cars stay wet for a long time,
>> even in summer. That's pretty obvious. Less obvious is the danger
>> caused by cyclists riding closer to dangerous visual obstacles than is
>> good for them. Car doors are quickly pushed open, pedestrians behind
>> parked cars step into the lane because there is no dangerous traffic
>> from their point of view.
>>
>> There is a story behind the first two pictures, about a even less
>> obvious trap which severely harmed and almost killed a female cyclist at
>> a crossing nearby, in my part of the city.
>>
>>>
>>> On segregated facilities, there's less gravel and glass unless the
>>> barriers are the now popular "candlestick" posts - which many advocates
>>> now claim are inadequate, because they're not concrete. But I know
>>> several people who were injured rather badly by slipping on slimy mud
>>> washed onto totally segregated bike paths. And leaves and snow fall
>>> everywhere including on sidewalks. Few jurisdictions here have the
>>> machinery, or even the inclination, to clear those from non-motoring
>>> surfaces.
>>
>> Most roads that have at least a minimum of car traffic don't need any
>> cleaning, in that part of the road that is in fact used by those cars,
>> occasionaly touched by their tires, that is. Paint a stripe for a bike
>> lane any you've marked a part of the road that is now dirty, dangerous
>> and sometimes unuseable for safe cycling, most of the time.
>>
>
> +1, from an obviously experienced cyclist

But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.

Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
than the roads.

Roger Merriman

Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>
>Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>than the roads.

No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.

In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 20:59:05 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
><roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>>But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>
>>Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>than the roads.
>
>No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>
>In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.

Yes, actually. The only time I recently rode in a bike lane ("gutter")
was when I was riding the florida keys trail, where some of the trail
was a 2/3 foot strip on the side of the highway. The trails I ride
regularly are far enough way from the vehicles that they don't get the
trash. As for leaves, the trails get a regular blow-off, so it's
pretty rare that I come across any wet leaves, not that they would be
an issue on the Catrike.

On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>
>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>> than the roads.
>
> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>
> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>

Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>
>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>> than the roads.
>>
>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>
>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>
>
>Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.

I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
trails well away from any vehicle traffic.