On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>
>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>> than the roads.
>>>
>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>
>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>
>>
>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>
>
> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.

I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
is clear and obvious:

http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>
>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>> than the roads.
>
> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.

For roads the debris is still there but kicked to the side, the segregated
cycleways in my experience don’t get that sort of stuff, and like all
urban/suburban areas will get cleaned now and then.

Roads debris is from or caused by cars and what not, my old Cycleway has as
far as I can tell it’s original surface laid down in 1969 and the old road
used for pedestrian/bike traffic under the Motorway has its original
surface, the vegetation has started to encroach on the original pavements
and a few wee bits on the kerb but it’s still a very good road surface.
>
> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>
That only really applies to painted bike lanes which aren’t really if much
use to man or beast.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>
>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>
>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>
>>
>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>
>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>is clear and obvious:
>
>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189

That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>
>>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>is clear and obvious:
>>
>>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>
>
>That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.

What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 06:06:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>
>>>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>is clear and obvious:
>>>
>>>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>
>>
>>That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>
>What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.

Highways around here are not as trashy as Mr Muzi's example., and I
don't recall that much trash around southern Wisconsin either. His
picture might have been taken in the Chicago area.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 08:06:59 -0700, NFN Smith <worldoff9908@gmail.com>
wrote:

> A wet steel plate comes pretty near.

Even dry steel can be pretty slippery. I once lost control of the
bike four times while crossing a single pair of railroad tracks.

And I was walking.

--
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGESEW/

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:12:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 06:06:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>
>>>>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>>is clear and obvious:
>>>>
>>>>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>
>>>
>>>That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>>down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>>was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>>lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>>off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>>in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>
>>What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>>don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>>in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>
>Highways around here are not as trashy as Mr Muzi's example., and I
>don't recall that much trash around southern Wisconsin either. His
>picture might have been taken in the Chicago area.

Perhaps you need some Singapore type laws - Littering - First-timers
throwing smaller items will have to pay $300. Those littering thrice
will have to clean up the streets once each week wearing a bib that
says I am a litterer.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>
>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>
>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>
>>
>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>
> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>

Probably selective? Only place might find such stuff though even then much
less is some of the urban dual carriageways.

Which might well have debris and if high speed due to being more awkward to
clean I can’t just use a man and trolley and might need to close a lane to
do so.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:21:48 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 19:12:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 06:06:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>>>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>>>is clear and obvious:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>>>down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>>>was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>>>lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>>>off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>>>in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>>
>>>What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>>>don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>>>in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>
>>Highways around here are not as trashy as Mr Muzi's example., and I
>>don't recall that much trash around southern Wisconsin either. His
>>picture might have been taken in the Chicago area.
>
>Perhaps you need some Singapore type laws - Littering - First-timers
>throwing smaller items will have to pay $300. Those littering thrice
>will have to clean up the streets once each week wearing a bib that
>says I am a litterer.

We have laws against littering, but in the big blue cities of the USA,
they don't prosecute people for breaking laws unless the "law breaker"
was defending himself or protecting his property.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:34:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn?t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>>
>>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>
>>>
>>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>
>> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>
>
>Probably selective? Only place might find such stuff though even then much
>less is some of the urban dual carriageways.
>
>Which might well have debris and if high speed due to being more awkward to
>clean I can’t just use a man and trolley and might need to close a lane to
>do so.
>
>Roger Merriman

But I rode on 4 - 6 lane 100 - 120 KPH roads with extremely heavy
traffic - main highway to N.E, Thailand -
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2097959/heavy-traffic-in-korat-as-songkran-trips-begin
But no filthy roads as described here.

Which led to my post above.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 21:34:10 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>
>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>> than the roads.

I suspect that these are either fairy tales or it is simply a kind of
self selection bias. My experience is mostly from times where I didn't
have much choice which route to take, while commuting by bike all year
for decades, both across the city and accross the country. I learned to
avoid "cycling infrastructure" the hard way, that's for sure!

If cycle paths next to roads were so much better than using the road,
which is also used with motor vehicles, then people would be using these
facilities voluntarily and the ban on road use wouldn't be necessary.

>>
>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>
>For roads the debris is still there but kicked to the side, the segregated
>cycleways in my experience don’t get that sort of stuff, and like all
>urban/suburban areas will get cleaned now and then.

You're missing the point, again. It's not about what specific kind of
stuff ends up as dirt on a surface, it's about whether it stays there
and for how long and why.

Public roads are paved surfaces that extend over long distances, that is
their very purpose. The surfaces in which a single road is embedded are
very different along its course, so the type of litter that ends up on
the road naturally varies. Some parts of most roads don't need much
cleaning, if we ignore the fact that all roads that aren't tunnels or
covered bridges get wet now and then. But rarely a road doesn't have
long streches which do get dirty and stay dirty where tires don't roll.
Roads sidelined by vegetation or by farming get a lot of dirt, for
example. But that dirt doesn't stay long, there.

"Segregated bike lanes" or ways free of car traffic are similar, but
different in an important way. The most obvious differences are: Unlike
public roads, bike lanes _must_ be cleaned in order to stay clean, which
is usually not the case with roads, as their surface is cleaned by car
tires as a side effect of use. Car-free ways, for example restricted
farm tracks or forest paths, simply remain dirty. Given that even the
most intensive (and expensive!) ways of cleaning in urban areas rarely
happen more often than once a day, typically less than once a week,
around here, this still results in an inferiour experienc when using the
segregated way, in comparison to the public road.

Have a look again at those pictures I showed in
<0fa5qil3iio60nvg1ekeq3l9mqhtm6rtuv@4ax.com>

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen3/DSCF0054.jpg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6236.jpg>

Do you believe that these roads were cleaned/dried by a cleaning vehicle
with a large dryer and that the cycle lanes were selectively not dried?

>
>Roads debris is from or caused by cars and what not,

Do you believe that dirt shown on the segregated bike path in the
following picture is from or was caused by cars? Do you believe that
this road had been cleaned, during the night?

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20081124/P1080297.jpg>

I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
ignorance.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:

>On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
....
>>
>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>
>I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>is clear and obvious:
>
>http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189

My (our) most extensive experience comes from the region where we live
and where I commuted for decades. But it's not much different from our
experiences on vacation in different regions of France and Italy.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/frankreich/valreas/img-5935.jpeg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/frankreich/valreas/img-5932.jpeg>

It's not just about dirt. There is a third picture in this series from
Valréas/France, which really shows how cycling traffic is valued, where
"infrastructure" like that is established

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/frankreich/valreas/img-5941.jpeg>

Can you imagine a highway lane ending this way, in front of a highway
junction? I can't.

My picture is from May, 2008, but it wasn't obviously no different half
a year ago (June 2023), when Google visited that roundabout again.

<https://www.google.de/maps/@44.3875687,4.9899289,3a,75y,88.99h,87.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbZwfCEMpqAXT0zw1EUppOw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu>

It's interesting to compare pictures from the timeline. Unfortunately,
there are no pictures from days with rain or snow, but even so, it's
instructive. Compare

<https://www.google.de/maps/@44.3877303,4.9804711,3a,75y,298.48h,74.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seW8gmNp4IsJEDBepJVt8Dg!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656>
(March 2009)
<https://www.google.de/maps/@44.3877141,4.9805171,3a,62.4y,299.92h,75.34t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sq1rPKbL1MfWa_SNE9GOKkQ!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i13312!8i6656>
(Oct 2018)
<https://www.google.de/maps/@44.3877267,4.9804817,3a,34.3y,295.31h,70.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sySfyztqW5telWjALWz8DTA!2e0!5s20230601T000000!7i16384!8i8192>
(June 2023)

Before the introduction of cycle lanes, we simply called these narrow
hard shoulders "unusable parts of the road".

Speaking about flats, almost all our flats came from segregated cycling
facities we couldn't or didn't avoid. It's no surprise that the watering
holes where segregation fans congregate are filled with talk about all
sorts of magical tire enhancements, protectors or ultra fat and thick
tires that would make a tractor pale. While road cyclists mostly talk
about which tire has the least weight and rolling resistance.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:34:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn?t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>>
>>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>
>>>
>>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>
>> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>
>
>Probably selective? Only place might find such stuff though even then much
>less is some of the urban dual carriageways.
>
>Which might well have debris and if high speed due to being more awkward to
>clean I can’t just use a man and trolley and might need to close a lane to
>do so.
>
>Roger Merriman

Maybe it's the weather? Moon phase? Who knows what. In Bangkok there
are street sweepers = women with brooms -
http://tinyurl.com/3mdbtwuf

But here, about 200 km N.E. of Bangkok, I've never seen them. But, the
streets are still clean. not clean as in eat a meal off the highway,
but certainly clean in the sense of you don't have to dodge junk when
on a bicycle.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, January 9, 2024 at 10:23:43 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 4:52 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> > Am Mon, 8 Jan 2024 16:27:42 -0800 (PST) schrieb AK
> > <scienti...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >>
> >> On that same road, while driving my car, a truck veered into my lane about 3 feet.
> >
> > So you avoid driving your car on roads with such a speed limit ever
> > since? How do you get around, then?
> Good point!
>
> About two weeks ago I had my nearest ever miss of a moving on-road
> collision. I was driving my car to a bike club committee meeting, going
> about 30 mph through a traffic light that had been green for at least 15
> seconds. I was into the intersection before I noticed a Ford sedan
> blasting through his red light from my left. I assume the driver was
> impaired or badly distracted. There was nothing I could do but hit the
> accelerator. I saw his car miss my left rear fender by no more than
> three feet.
>
> I have not given up driving as a result. Neither has my friend, whose
> car was totaled a couple years ago by a woman whose car ran into her. I
> do look a little more carefully when driving through intersections, but
> I suspect I'll forget that habit fairly soon.
> > Sure. A similar thing happended to us in when driving our car in the
> > south of France, two years ago. A large concrete mixer tailgated our car
> > with a distance less than one meter at about 80 km/h (speed limit in
> > France outside of villages), even into the village, where a speed limit
> > of 50 km/h applies. Scary. I fled into a side street. Unfortunately, I
> > couldn't see the licence plate due to the distance.
> I detest tailgaters. I generally tap the brake lights three times as a
> warning. Then, if they don't back off, I generally begin slowing down.
> This gives me ability to brake more slowly if anything does happen up
> front. More important, it guarantees the tailgater doesn't benefit from
> his assholery.
> - Frank Krygowski

I can not stand tailgaters either.

I have found that taping on the horn twice relays my discomfort in being tailgated.

If that does not work, I reduce my speed.

I have much neck and back pain from drivers who rear ended me.

Andy

On 1/13/2024 5:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>
>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>
>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>
>>
>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>
> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>

Ever ride around in a Japanese city? There's no litter
despite high population density. Perhaps the answer is to
live around people who are neat and responsible.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/14/2024 8:41 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:34:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn?t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>>
>>> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>>> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>>> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>>
>>
>> Probably selective? Only place might find such stuff though even then much
>> less is some of the urban dual carriageways.
>>
>> Which might well have debris and if high speed due to being more awkward to
>> clean I can’t just use a man and trolley and might need to close a lane to
>> do so.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Maybe it's the weather? Moon phase? Who knows what. In Bangkok there
> are street sweepers = women with brooms -
> http://tinyurl.com/3mdbtwuf
>
> But here, about 200 km N.E. of Bangkok, I've never seen them. But, the
> streets are still clean. not clean as in eat a meal off the highway,
> but certainly clean in the sense of you don't have to dodge junk when
> on a bicycle.

I'm sure laws have an effect, if very diligently enforced. But it's hard
to see how cops can prevent someone from tossing junk out of a moving
car window.

I think it's mostly a matter of local culture and attitudes - that is,
whether typical people in a certain locale have a sense of
responsibility about caring for their surroundings, including
controlling their trash.

In our early bicycling days we lived in the Deep South of the U.S. The
culture was such that broken glass (e.g. from beer bottles) was a
constant risk. So were loose aggressive dogs, which while not directly
related, illustrates the general mindset.

The first League of American Bicyclists national rally we attended was
1978, in Michigan, quite a long drive. I was astonished at how clean the
rural roads were compared to where we were living. I think Michigan had
a "bottle bill," meaning there was a deposit on glass containers, which
encouraged turning them back in rather than chucking them out the
window. But other (non-glass) roadside litter was also much, much less
in rural Michigan.

And speaking of attitudes, decades later I recall riding through a tiny
village in Austria and encountering a woman sweeping the public street
in front of her house. That would be a VERY rare sight in America.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/14/2024 7:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
>
> I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
> pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
> paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
> trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
> and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
> somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
> ignorance.

It was in 2003 that my wife, daughter and I rode coast to coast,
Atlantic to Pacific. In those days there were blessedly few bike lanes.

But when we approached Portland, Oregon from the west, we hit a suburb
with lots of bike lanes along our route. Riding in the lead, I was
constantly calling warnings back to the ladies: "Glass!" or "Trash!" or
"Broken muffler!" It was so common that we first began laughing about
it; then I stopped and consulted a map, and we located a street without
bike lanes to get us into the heart of Portland.

In later years, visiting Portland, I phoned some bike advocacy group to
complain about the debris in bike lanes. The guy who answered very
sincerely told me that they had a program to take care of that! It was a
system of post cards. I could pick up a post card at a bike shop, fill
it in to describe where the debris was, and someone would (eventually)
come out to clear the debris away.

Think about how long that would take!

These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes, but they are
beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is done once every
six months.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 14:01:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/14/2024 8:41 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:34:07 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn?t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>>>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>>>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>>>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>>>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>>>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>>>
>>>> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>>>> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>>>> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Probably selective? Only place might find such stuff though even then much
>>> less is some of the urban dual carriageways.
>>>
>>> Which might well have debris and if high speed due to being more awkward to
>>> clean I can’t just use a man and trolley and might need to close a lane to
>>> do so.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Maybe it's the weather? Moon phase? Who knows what. In Bangkok there
>> are street sweepers = women with brooms -
>> http://tinyurl.com/3mdbtwuf
>>
>> But here, about 200 km N.E. of Bangkok, I've never seen them. But, the
>> streets are still clean. not clean as in eat a meal off the highway,
>> but certainly clean in the sense of you don't have to dodge junk when
>> on a bicycle.
>
>I'm sure laws have an effect, if very diligently enforced. But it's hard
>to see how cops can prevent someone from tossing junk out of a moving
>car window.
>
>I think it's mostly a matter of local culture and attitudes - that is,
>whether typical people in a certain locale have a sense of
>responsibility about caring for their surroundings, including
>controlling their trash.
>
>In our early bicycling days we lived in the Deep South of the U.S. The
>culture was such that broken glass (e.g. from beer bottles) was a
>constant risk. So were loose aggressive dogs, which while not directly
>related, illustrates the general mindset.
>
>The first League of American Bicyclists national rally we attended was
>1978, in Michigan, quite a long drive. I was astonished at how clean the
>rural roads were compared to where we were living. I think Michigan had
>a "bottle bill," meaning there was a deposit on glass containers, which
>encouraged turning them back in rather than chucking them out the
>window. But other (non-glass) roadside litter was also much, much less
>in rural Michigan.
>
>And speaking of attitudes, decades later I recall riding through a tiny
>village in Austria and encountering a woman sweeping the public street
>in front of her house. That would be a VERY rare sight in America.

I've ridden in the deep south, and I've ridden in Michigan, Illinois,
and Ohio. The roads in the south are no trashier than the roads in the
north. They're all pretty bad, these days.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 09:53:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/13/2024 5:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 17:09:57 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 15:16:25 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2024 3:02 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 14:49:19 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/13/2024 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>>>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>>>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>>>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>>>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>>>>>> than the roads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>>>>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>>>>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>>>>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>>>>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>>>>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>>>>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short: that difference is no difference, self-cleaning is only
>>>>>>> happening on those parts of the road that are used by cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jobst noted that here and it exactly fits my experience as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I never had troubles with slippery surfaces, even when I rode
>>>>> two-wheelers, but I have gotten flats from road debri, even on bike
>>>>> trails well away from any vehicle traffic.
>>>>
>>>> I know nothing of paved Florida bike paths.
>>>> In my world, the choice of what part of the road to choose
>>>> is clear and obvious:
>>>>
>>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>
>>>
>>> That looks worse than the bridges I had to ride along US highway one
>>> down through the Florida keys. There wasn't so much beer cans as there
>>> was glass and tire debri. Two lanes, 60+ MPH traffic both ways, and
>>> lots of big trucks. One bridge is seven miles long and no place to get
>>> off till you got to the other side. I did it both directions two years
>>> in a row, but I'm too old and too wise to do it again.
>>
>> What I don't understand is why your roads are so dirty and here I
>> don't ever remember ever seeing as much debris as the reference shows
>> in any of the countries where I've ridden this part of the world.
>>
>
>Ever ride around in a Japanese city? There's no litter
>despite high population density. Perhaps the answer is to
>live around people who are neat and responsible.

Yes, I lived in Japan for 8 years and the first 4 rode a bicycle -
single speed, rod brakes, to work, and yes Japanese streets are clean.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/14/2024 7:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>>
>> I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
>> pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
>> paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
>> trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
>> and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
>> somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
>> ignorance.
>
>
> It was in 2003 that my wife, daughter and I rode coast to coast,
> Atlantic to Pacific. In those days there were blessedly few bike lanes.
>
> But when we approached Portland, Oregon from the west, we hit a suburb
> with lots of bike lanes along our route. Riding in the lead, I was
> constantly calling warnings back to the ladies: "Glass!" or "Trash!" or
> "Broken muffler!" It was so common that we first began laughing about
> it; then I stopped and consulted a map, and we located a street without
> bike lanes to get us into the heart of Portland.
>
> In later years, visiting Portland, I phoned some bike advocacy group to
> complain about the debris in bike lanes. The guy who answered very
> sincerely told me that they had a program to take care of that! It was a
> system of post cards. I could pick up a post card at a bike shop, fill
> it in to describe where the debris was, and someone would (eventually)
> come out to clear the debris away.
>
> Think about how long that would take!
>
> These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes, but they are
> beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is done once every
> six months.
>
Seriously what on earth to they spend your money on? I mean road/pavement
cleaning is hardly particularly expensive.

And it’s somewhat self serving ie dirty unkept streets are more likely to
get littering on.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 23:15:18 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/14/2024 7:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
>>> pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
>>> paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
>>> trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
>>> and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
>>> somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
>>> ignorance.
>>
>>
>> It was in 2003 that my wife, daughter and I rode coast to coast,
>> Atlantic to Pacific. In those days there were blessedly few bike lanes.
>>
>> But when we approached Portland, Oregon from the west, we hit a suburb
>> with lots of bike lanes along our route. Riding in the lead, I was
>> constantly calling warnings back to the ladies: "Glass!" or "Trash!" or
>> "Broken muffler!" It was so common that we first began laughing about
>> it; then I stopped and consulted a map, and we located a street without
>> bike lanes to get us into the heart of Portland.
>>
>> In later years, visiting Portland, I phoned some bike advocacy group to
>> complain about the debris in bike lanes. The guy who answered very
>> sincerely told me that they had a program to take care of that! It was a
>> system of post cards. I could pick up a post card at a bike shop, fill
>> it in to describe where the debris was, and someone would (eventually)
>> come out to clear the debris away.
>>
>> Think about how long that would take!
>>
>> These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes, but they are
>> beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is done once every
>> six months.
>>
>Seriously what on earth to they spend your money on? I mean road/pavement
>cleaning is hardly particularly expensive.
>
>And it’s somewhat self serving ie dirty unkept streets are more likely to
>get littering on.
>
>Roger Merriman

:-) As I've mentioned, in places like Bangkok we have women who are
employed to sweep the streets and keep things clean. Minimum salary of
course but a Job!

Now try it in the U.S. (for example). Sweep the streets? Wit ha broom?
You gotta be crazy! What'd I want to do that for? I got the
unemployment!

P.S. :-) Thailand has less then 1% unemployment :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 21:34:10 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Sat, 13 Jan 2024 18:33:51 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <roger@sarlet.com>:
>>>
>>>> But it is talking about a rather different set up ie some painted lane for
>>>> bikes on the road, the segregated stuff in my experience is clear of road
>>>> debris ie spray of gravel/glass/bits of cars doesn’t stop leaf litter and
>>>> so on. But such set ups are urban/suburban in nature and so will get some
>>>> sort of street cleaning regularly if not often depending on the area.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise I suspect that Catstrikes trails require much less maintenance
>>>> than the roads.
>
> I suspect that these are either fairy tales or it is simply a kind of
> self selection bias. My experience is mostly from times where I didn't
> have much choice which route to take, while commuting by bike all year
> for decades, both across the city and accross the country. I learned to
> avoid "cycling infrastructure" the hard way, that's for sure!
>
> If cycle paths next to roads were so much better than using the road,
> which is also used with motor vehicles, then people would be using these
> facilities voluntarily and the ban on road use wouldn't be necessary.

Define next to road? As ever cycle infrastructure varies wildly. Ie from
painted bikes yes really! To some painted lanes, some have recently gained
some random wands which aren’t generally terribly useful really to more
engineered segregation.

certainly in uk no such legislation much like Helmets never going to make
it into law, for number of reasons. If one wanted to for example you could
ride down the Embankment road than the cycleway, but since it’s no slower
and has less mandatory junctions with filters for number of junctions it’s
less stop start.

If folks had ignored the Embankment cycleway which they could have done
legally it would have been hugely embarrassing, hence it had to be
attractive to use.

Different set up but I’m told the latest and newest segregated cycleway
along Chiswick high street carries more traffic than the road which
wouldn’t surprise me really with its location and connections.

And certainly they don’t seem to collect debris I’m sure they are cleaned
fairly regularly I’ve even seen the wee street or rather pavement mini van
cleaners even out west on the commute.

But they carry significant volume of traffic of bikes, even on my commute
on areas with significant
>
>>>
>>> No. The tires of fast-moving cars grind up and remove all kinds of
>>> stuff, debris, trash and dirt from the surfaces they roll on. In short,
>>> car tires clean and dry the roads as a side effect of their use. On
>>> other surfaces not touched by the tires, what lands on them remains and
>>> accumulates and rots there, be it liquid or frozen water, discarded
>>> newspapers or sand, leaves, smaller branches, dead animals, cola cans,
>>> soil, grass, vegetation sprouting from cracks, etc. pp. ad nauseam.
>>
>> For roads the debris is still there but kicked to the side, the segregated
>> cycleways in my experience don’t get that sort of stuff, and like all
>> urban/suburban areas will get cleaned now and then.
>
> You're missing the point, again. It's not about what specific kind of
> stuff ends up as dirt on a surface, it's about whether it stays there
> and for how long and why.
>
> Public roads are paved surfaces that extend over long distances, that is
> their very purpose. The surfaces in which a single road is embedded are
> very different along its course, so the type of litter that ends up on
> the road naturally varies. Some parts of most roads don't need much
> cleaning, if we ignore the fact that all roads that aren't tunnels or
> covered bridges get wet now and then. But rarely a road doesn't have
> long streches which do get dirty and stay dirty where tires don't roll.
> Roads sidelined by vegetation or by farming get a lot of dirt, for
> example. But that dirt doesn't stay long, there.

>
> "Segregated bike lanes" or ways free of car traffic are similar, but
> different in an important way. The most obvious differences are: Unlike
> public roads, bike lanes _must_ be cleaned in order to stay clean, which
> is usually not the case with roads, as their surface is cleaned by car
> tires as a side effect of use. Car-free ways, for example restricted
> farm tracks or forest paths, simply remain dirty. Given that even the
> most intensive (and expensive!) ways of cleaning in urban areas rarely
> happen more often than once a day, typically less than once a week,
> around here, this still results in an inferiour experienc when using the
> segregated way, in comparison to the public road.

That the debris is to the sides or in the middle doesn’t alter the fact it
will need to get cleaned and the bigger the road the bigger the job it is,
for example my old cycleway gets a man and a cart a few times a year, maybe
some vegetation is cut back.

The parallel road? They have to send down a road sweeper and to get to the
central part cone off lanes so that can be cleaned much more intensive and
costly.
>
> Have a look again at those pictures I showed in
> <0fa5qil3iio60nvg1ekeq3l9mqhtm6rtuv@4ax.com>
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen3/DSCF0054.jpg>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/hausdorffstr/PICT6236.jpg>
>
> Do you believe that these roads were cleaned/dried by a cleaning vehicle
> with a large dryer and that the cycle lanes were selectively not dried?
>
>>
>> Roads debris is from or caused by cars and what not,
>
> Do you believe that dirt shown on the segregated bike path in the
> following picture is from or was caused by cars? Do you believe that
> this road had been cleaned, during the night?
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20081124/P1080297.jpg>
>
> I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
> pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
> paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
> trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
> and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
> somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
> ignorance.
>

Seems unlikely to have been bikes either though seems an odd places to get
clumps of mud left? But looks rural? Which really isn’t the sort of thing
that the UK does ie you’d use the road than expect a bike lane there? Which
tend to be urban/suburban in nature at least transport/utility types get
leisure routes clearly.

Roger Merriman

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 23:15:18 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/14/2024 7:03 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I took this photo on my commute, in 2008. I took a lot of similar
>>>> pictures, clean roads, sidelined by painted bike lanes, segregated bike
>>>> paths and completely segregated so called "biycle infrastructure",
>>>> trashed with all kindes of trash and dirt, from sand, gravel, garbage
>>>> and all kinds of vegetation in variing state of decay. It' getting
>>>> somewhat old to document all that, when it is dismissed that way, out of
>>>> ignorance.
>>>
>>>
>>> It was in 2003 that my wife, daughter and I rode coast to coast,
>>> Atlantic to Pacific. In those days there were blessedly few bike lanes.
>>>
>>> But when we approached Portland, Oregon from the west, we hit a suburb
>>> with lots of bike lanes along our route. Riding in the lead, I was
>>> constantly calling warnings back to the ladies: "Glass!" or "Trash!" or
>>> "Broken muffler!" It was so common that we first began laughing about
>>> it; then I stopped and consulted a map, and we located a street without
>>> bike lanes to get us into the heart of Portland.
>>>
>>> In later years, visiting Portland, I phoned some bike advocacy group to
>>> complain about the debris in bike lanes. The guy who answered very
>>> sincerely told me that they had a program to take care of that! It was a
>>> system of post cards. I could pick up a post card at a bike shop, fill
>>> it in to describe where the debris was, and someone would (eventually)
>>> come out to clear the debris away.
>>>
>>> Think about how long that would take!
>>>
>>> These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes, but they are
>>> beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is done once every
>>> six months.
>>>
>> Seriously what on earth to they spend your money on? I mean road/pavement
>> cleaning is hardly particularly expensive.
>>
>> And it’s somewhat self serving ie dirty unkept streets are more likely to
>> get littering on.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> :-) As I've mentioned, in places like Bangkok we have women who are
> employed to sweep the streets and keep things clean. Minimum salary of
> course but a Job!
>
> Now try it in the U.S. (for example). Sweep the streets? Wit ha broom?
> You gotta be crazy! What'd I want to do that for? I got the
> unemployment!
>
> P.S. :-) Thailand has less then 1% unemployment :-)

I see everything from man with broom and cart to a shrunk road sweepers,
which I’d assume are for pavements as aren’t enough segregated cycleways to
justify buying such kit!

But seems to work well.

Roger Merriman

On 1/14/2024 6:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes, but they are
>> beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is done once every
>> six months.
>>
> Seriously what on earth to they spend your money on? I mean road/pavement
> cleaning is hardly particularly expensive.

I believe a major reason our streets aren't swept more frequently is
that almost nobody cares much about minor road debris. This area does
not have a lot of bicycling but it has lots of motorists. Any road
debris smaller than, say, a beverage can doesn't matter to motorists at
all, no matter what it does to bicyclists.

What do they spend money on? This time of year, road salt and snow
plowing are huge expenses (although there's been little need for that so
far this year). Filling potholes is a big expense, partly because we see
lots of freeze-thaw cycles which tends to break up the pavement.

And as I've mentioned before, any given road around here may be
controlled by the state, by the county, by the township or by the
municipality (city or village). Each has its own funding. Our village
and our township roads got miles and miles of repaving done a few years
ago; but that leaves less money for sweeping. (I assume the village and
township pay another entity for sweeping; AFAIK they don't own any
equipment for that.)

And our county roads are always hurting for money. There's a big pot of
state money given annually to counties for "county road" work, but it's
divided evenly by Ohio's 88 counties. Some counties have relatively few
miles of county roads. Ours is near the top in county road miles. As the
county engineer said in one presentation, it would make much more sense
to distribute the money on a per-mile basis; but about 87 other counties
would vote against that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/14/2024 6:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/14/2024 6:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> These days my area still has blessedly few bike lanes,
>>> but they are
>>> beginning to pop up. The street sweeping around here is
>>> done once every
>>> six months.
>>>
>> Seriously what on earth to they spend your money on? I
>> mean road/pavement
>> cleaning is hardly particularly expensive.
>
> I believe a major reason our streets aren't swept more
> frequently is that almost nobody cares much about minor road
> debris. This area does not have a lot of bicycling but it
> has lots of motorists. Any road debris smaller than, say, a
> beverage can doesn't matter to motorists at all, no matter
> what it does to bicyclists.
>
> What do they spend money on? This time of year, road salt
> and snow plowing are huge expenses (although there's been
> little need for that so far this year). Filling potholes is
> a big expense, partly because we see lots of freeze-thaw
> cycles which tends to break up the pavement.
>
> And as I've mentioned before, any given road around here may
> be controlled by the state, by the county, by the township
> or by the municipality (city or village). Each has its own
> funding. Our village and our township roads got miles and
> miles of repaving done a few years ago; but that leaves less
> money for sweeping. (I assume the village and township pay
> another entity for sweeping; AFAIK they don't own any
> equipment for that.)
>
> And our county roads are always hurting for money. There's a
> big pot of state money given annually to counties for
> "county road" work, but it's divided evenly by Ohio's 88
> counties. Some counties have relatively few miles of county
> roads. Ours is near the top in county road miles. As the
> county engineer said in one presentation, it would make much
> more sense to distribute the money on a per-mile basis; but
> about 87 other counties would vote against that.
>

Lots of subject areas there and many good points, but in
societies where people take personal responsibility there
just isn't litter to be removed. I'm sure we have all
noticed which neighborhoods are covered in crap and which
are not. Even here in rural Wisconsin I have occasionally
seen cars toss fast food litter- wrappers, napkins, bags and
cups - out of vehicle windows. It's beyond perplexing, makes
one quite angry.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971