Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:35:59 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:31:25 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:28:03 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly
> > > > see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky,
> > > > Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > >
> > > Because this ng is dominated by folks who believe
> > > German composers are the only ones worth hearing.
> >
> > I can't see anything wrong with this.
> I see everything wrong with one style of music and one
> mindset being proclaimed as "norma;" or "superior".

one style?

> > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves
> > > > me not wanting to participate much - my usual
> > > > listening repertoire is more modern.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't describe it as "emphasis on classical/
> > > romantic" as there were plenty of classical and
> > > romantic composers outside Germany. I would
> > > describe it as cultural and racial prejudice.
> >
> > I would just describe it as the truth: Austro-German
> > music is the best.
> Austro-German music is pretentious pedantic shit.
> It is craft, not art. Just like German cars.

jt, I asked you for this a couple of times already: please don't provide me any more evidence for your idiocy. TIA.

>
> dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:32:52 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:46:03 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> > On 16 May 2023 Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about
> > > Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > >
> > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to
> > > participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> >
> > Later than Brahms (1833-1897)?
> >
> > Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky, yes. Perhaps also Saint-Saëns (1835-1921),
> > Bruch (1838-1920), Dvorák (1845-1904), Fauré (1845-1924), Janácek
> > (1854-1928), Elgar (1857-1934), Mahler (1860-1911), Nielsen (1865-1931),
> > Sibelius (1865-1957)?
> >
> > The rest is noise ;-)
> >
> Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Scriabin,
> Rachmaninov, Prokofiev are "noise"? Albeniz, Granados, De Falla
> are "noise"? Poulenc and Respighi are "noise"?

What a bunch of buffoons compared to the composers I listed...

>
> Where do you buy your gas?
>
> dk

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:52:08 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> >
> > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> What about R. Strauss?

And Holst?

On Tue, 16 May 2023 14:42:09 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:32:52 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:46:03???AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> > > On 16 May 2023 Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about
> > > > Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > >
> > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to
> > > > participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > >
> > > Later than Brahms (1833-1897)?
> > >
> > > Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky, yes. Perhaps also Saint-Saëns (1835-1921),
> > > Bruch (1838-1920), Dvorák (1845-1904), Fauré (1845-1924), Janácek
> > > (1854-1928), Elgar (1857-1934), Mahler (1860-1911), Nielsen (1865-1931),
> > > Sibelius (1865-1957)?
> > >
> > > The rest is noise ;-)
> > Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Scriabin,
> > Rachmaninov, Prokofiev are "noise"? Albeniz, Granados, De Falla
> > are "noise"? Poulenc and Respighi are "noise"?
>
> What a bunch of buffoons compared to the composers I listed...

Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 02:20:35 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Same here. Where is Sibelius, Janacek, Shostakovich, Villa-Lobos, Englund, Ivanovs, Roussel, and Malcolm Arnold, or Ives. A lot of early 19th century is all about form, scales, and pasted endings, etc. As boring as a wet lettuce. I'd rather go for earlier music such as Palestrina, Lassus, Byrd to be honest and is reflected as such on my shelves. Bach is given an exception.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
>
> Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.

Especially so in this score:

https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo

dk

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
Martynov, Yamashita, many others have come up...

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:57:12 PM UTC-7, number_six wrote:
>
> Martynov, Yamashita, many others have come up...
>

https://youtu.be/Lyb7augbLSU

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 2:20:35 AM UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Well, there's the Rachmaninov. Big Dave has been tslking a good deal about the Rach symphonies, because a new set by a British conductor and a British orchestra is in progress from Chandos, and Dave thinks it's tepid and glib.. Dave likes his Rachmaninov on the gushy side, you see, because it reminds him of the films he used to see when his Yiddische Momma used to take him to the theater as a special treat, and the background music used to well up to a crescendo as Nelson Eddy and Jeanette Macdonald puckered up for their first kiss. And the little propeller on the top of little David's cap didn't stop revolving for 36 hours ...

The arguments, for want of a better word, presented by Dave and his fan club (on YouTube) are interesting. The Davald admits that the Sinfonia of London plays it well, and that Mr Wilson - the conductor, not Dennis the Menace's neighbour - makes some wise decisions. But it isn't sexy enough, you see.. So from here - a matter of subjective reaction - he goes on to say that because of this, Chandos has no business releasing the recording. Even more oddly, he declares that Mr W and the SoL should stick to playing British music which they do very well, which seems to suggest that British music lacks emotional power, which is very odd indeed. The the Fan Club come in and argue that Chandos will make quite a lot of money because The Gramophone will say that the recording is the cat's pyjamas and 64 million British citizens will immediately rush out and buy it.

This utterly bonkers suggestion is based on the strange myth of what Mr Dallas calls ' the brotherhood of British reviewers'. In this context it's interesting to note that he puts in a big, big boost for the new Rach set from Leonard Slatkin already and the Detroiyoiyoit Symphony Orchestra, from Naxos. Could it be that there is a brotherhood of Jewish American critics? Surely not ...

I might add that (a) the British critics I've read agree that the recording of Rach 2 is emotionally underpowered (b) contrary to the fan club's predictions, The Gramophone did not put Mr Wilson's Rach 2 into the Editor's Picks list (c) Naxos, like other recording companies would probably have charged the Detroit people many thousands of dollars to record their efforts, because there are no guaranteed profits from classical music recordings any more, for Naxos, Chandos or anybody else and (d) that despite Big D's loud protestations that he feels no nostalgia for the Golden Age, Mr Slatkin is 78 years old and the Detroit is very much a Golden Age orchestra - we haven't heard all that much from them since.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Pluted Pup schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:24:51 UTC+2:
> Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.

This ofc is utter bullshit that could only originate from an antisemitic mind... Schoenberg carried on the Austro-German lineage; what did Prokofiev do? trying to speak french as a russian... what is so germanic about this?

There is a saying you know... that trying to help antisemites (and I'm including jt here, even though he is not as crazy as you are) think properly is like teaching monkeys to talk...

Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> >
> > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> Especially so in this score:
>
> https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo

Is this not rather anti-germanic?...

>
> dk

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 08:12:13 UTC+2:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > >
> > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> > Especially so in this score:
> >
> > https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo
> Is this not rather anti-germanic?...

Musically speaking (because Germans are actually the best musicians) as well as what I seem to remember from the story...

>
> >
> > dk

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:12:13 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > >
> > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> >
> > Especially so in this score:
> >
> > https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo
>
> Is this not rather anti-germanic?...

Yes, but in a very Germanic way.

dk

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 08:13:06 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 08:12:13 UTC+2:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> > > Especially so in this score:
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo
> > Is this not rather anti-germanic?...
> Musically speaking (because Germans are actually the best musicians) as well as what I seem to remember from the story...

*so no misunderstanding happens: Prokofiev is an awful musician... for me it's anti-germanic to produce awful music like this... this is an assault on the Germanic soul!

>
> >
> > >
> > > dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 08:15:46 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:12:13 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> > >
> > > Especially so in this score:
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo
> >
> > Is this not rather anti-germanic?...
> Yes, but in a very Germanic way.

No way... this awful music making has nothing to do with the Germanic way.... Prokofiev is pseudo-pedantic!

>
> dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 08:15:46 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:12:13 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:49:16 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> > >
> > > Especially so in this score:
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo
> >
> > Is this not rather anti-germanic?...
> Yes, but in a very Germanic way.

Hollywood-Way... John Williams way of making music maybe...

>
> dk

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.

I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I’m not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940’s composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn’t want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don’t love most of it.

JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> >
> > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
>
> I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I’m not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940’s composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn’t want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don’t love most of it.

How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:24:07 PM UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> >
> > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
>
> I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I’m not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940’s composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn’t want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don’t love most of it.

Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 15:40:26 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:

> Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.

La Nativite Du Seigneur is quite easy to like.

I, like others, have difficulty with his birdsong, but Beroff's 20 Regards goes down well.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 11:08:45 AM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 15:40:26 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.
> La Nativite Du Seigneur is quite easy to like.
>
> I, like others, have difficulty with his birdsong, but Beroff's 20 Regards goes down well.

Indeed, Nativite and Regards are at the top of my list. L’Ascension as well. Tarangalila when I’m in the mood. Messe de La Pentecost sometimes.

Op woensdag 17 mei 2023 om 17:08:45 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 15:40:26 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.
> La Nativite Du Seigneur is quite easy to like.
>
> I, like others, have difficulty with his birdsong, but Beroff's 20 Regards goes down well.

And so does Chamayou's, although I still prefer Peter Serkin's. If very well played, and that doesn't happen often, some of the birds sounds as least as interesting as the Regards.

Henk

What do you think of Tristan Murail's Territoires d'oubli?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Y8tZ7potQ&ab_channel=LanCao

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 17:39:18 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> What do you think of Tristan Murail's Territoires d'oubli?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Y8tZ7potQ&ab_channel=LanCao

Good shout. Interesting sonorities. Lacks variety, though. Better than Cecil Taylor.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> I still prefer Peter Serkin's.
>

Sewing machine.

dk