On 1/09/21 4:16 am, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
>
> Sounds like the library digitization process described in /Rainbows
> End/ (Vernor Vinge): the contents are sliced up into teeny-tiny pieces
> which are scanned individually and digitally recombined according to
> context.
>
> The demonstration against this gets so out of hand that one of the
> characters, who has The Duty that night, contemplating Nuclear Carpet
> Bombing as a solution.

There is much that is wrong there. You appear to be in desperate need of
a re-read.
There are many plots caused by a wide variety of character motivations
but the main plot involves obtaining a YGBM (You Gotta Believe Me)
virus, an electronic virus to bypass your brain security. (and for those
who haven't read it, I am simplifying as there are many levels of
intrigue with many characters having secret agendas attempting dishonest
manipulations, brilliant stuff.) Nuclear Carpet Bombing of the
laboratories housing the virus to prevent its theft was a possibility.
The library was situated close to the laboratories.
The "demonstration" was an organised distraction (from darker matters)
involving a world wide 'televised' public showdown to obtain public
support for each claimant to library usage worldwide, the Militant
Librarians and the Scooch (electronically generated but haptic animals;
a futuristic version of Disneyland perhaps. That may be a bit askew.)
and respective supporters of both.
I am just replying to the faulty explanation. There is so much more to
Rainbows End than my above comments. The first time I read it, I liked
it almost as much as the first two Zones of Thought. All 5 stars.

In article <sgl8tj$pce$2@reader1.panix.com>,
jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <robertaw-4729B7.22025030082021@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <qynzLM.17EI@kithrup.com>,
> > djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <sgishd$md3$1@panix1.panix.com>, <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
> >> >Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> >> >https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-b
> >> >ook
> >> >s/
> >>
> >> Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
> >> about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
> >> capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
> >> interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
> >
> >I will point out that the story takes place in 2142 (past Presidential
> >election was in 2140, mid-term election coming up). Also, AFAICT, it was
> >the only Piper story that wasn't reprinted by Ace in the late 70s and
> >early 80s.
> >
> >--
> >"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> >Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
>
> Ace also passed on Murder in the Gunroom.

True, I was thinking of just his SF work; I hadn't expected Ace to
reprint a mystery novel.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 4:20:13 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Actually, looking at the cover, the title is "Crisis in 2140". That enabled me
> to find the work with a search, and also to learn that it was later republished
> as "Null-ABC".

It turns out that Null-ABC was the story's original title when first published
in two parts in the February and March 1953 issues of Astounding Science
Fiction.

John Savard

On 31 Aug 2021 at 19:55:18 BST, "petertrei@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, John Halpenny wrote:
>>>> On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 5:00:51 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/2021 3:37 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 12:15:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
>>>>>>> to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
>>>>>> chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
>>>>>>
>>>> Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
>>>
>>> I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
>>> destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
>> Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
>
> If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
> fingers, holding down the pages.
>
> I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
> recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
> the book, is apparently quite difficult.
>

In my final year at university in the 90s the main library acquired some
very industrial/military looking photocopiers with right-angled glass /\
to open a book onto. Two cameras or a mirror, I forget. Very
practically, turning the pages was left to the student.

Cheers - Jaimie

--
Imagine there were no hypothetical situations.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:38:30 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 1/09/21 4:16 am, Paul S Person wrote:
>snip
>>
>> Sounds like the library digitization process described in /Rainbows
>> End/ (Vernor Vinge): the contents are sliced up into teeny-tiny pieces
>> which are scanned individually and digitally recombined according to
>> context.
>>
>> The demonstration against this gets so out of hand that one of the
>> characters, who has The Duty that night, contemplating Nuclear Carpet
>> Bombing as a solution.
>
>There is much that is wrong there. You appear to be in desperate need of
>a re-read.

Well, a re-read would certainly be a pleasant thing. Of all the Vinge
books. But right now I'm catching up on Cherryh with her collected
short fiction (on Kindle).

Thanks for confirming that Nuclear Carpet Bombing was under
consideration, if not quite for the purpose I recalled.

And I'm sure everyone found your summary much more comprehensive than
mine.

>There are many plots caused by a wide variety of character motivations
>but the main plot involves obtaining a YGBM (You Gotta Believe Me)
>virus, an electronic virus to bypass your brain security. (and for those
>who haven't read it, I am simplifying as there are many levels of
>intrigue with many characters having secret agendas attempting dishonest
>manipulations, brilliant stuff.) Nuclear Carpet Bombing of the
>laboratories housing the virus to prevent its theft was a possibility.
>The library was situated close to the laboratories.
>The "demonstration" was an organised distraction (from darker matters)
>involving a world wide 'televised' public showdown to obtain public
>support for each claimant to library usage worldwide, the Militant
>Librarians and the Scooch (electronically generated but haptic animals;
>a futuristic version of Disneyland perhaps. That may be a bit askew.)
>and respective supporters of both.
>I am just replying to the faulty explanation. There is so much more to
>Rainbows End than my above comments. The first time I read it, I liked
>it almost as much as the first two Zones of Thought. All 5 stars.

Indeed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:55:18 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, John Halpenny wrote:
>> >> On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 5:00:51 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> >> > On 8/30/2021 3:37 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> > > On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 12:15:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
>> >> > >> to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
>> >> > > chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
>> >> > >
>> >> Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
>> >
>> >I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
>> >destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
>> Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
>
>If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
>fingers, holding down the pages.
>
>I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
>recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
>the book, is apparently quite difficult.

Given the child labor laws, I would say about 18 years from birth to
availability.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 10:16:51 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <brlsigdfvmpi3g3p5e5mu9km6ffaql8l46@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdnicoll@panix.com wrote:
>> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >>>>
>> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
>> >>>oks/
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >>
>> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >
>> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>>
>> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> all mixed up, IIRC.
>>
>> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>
>I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
>found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
>progress is being made.

It depends on how dependent they are on finding multiple versions of
the text, broken in different places.

And, of course, if the edges are not regular, they could in theory be
pieced together like a jigsaw puzzle.

If it's being done by scholars, I suspect they are going to be /very
very sure/ of their result before they publish anything purporting to
be a complete reconstructed work.

Now imagine an AI doing this with the shredded remains of a printout
of the Kindle omnibus of Dickens that uses (in some places) "l:" for
(as far as I could tell) "k". How long will it take for it to realize
that a fragment ending in "l" can mate up with one starting with ":"?

And how much work will it have to re-do after it figures this out?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
>> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >>>>
>> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >>
>> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >
>> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> all mixed up, IIRC.
>>
>> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>
>The real life application of the method is to restore
>destructively shredded documents.
>
>I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
>and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
>and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
>what I thought.
>
>Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
>actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
>not social history.

That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???) had a bunch
of stern-looking Iranian women supervising a bunch of kids restoring
shredded diplomatic files. Whether that actually happened or not, I
have no idea.

But if the kids were fed and cared for, they probably had a very good
deal.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <0b0f09ee-0fa9-414c-837c-bad8228beceen@googlegroups.com>,
"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 1:16:56 PM UTC-4, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > In article <brlsigdfvmpi3g3p5...@4ax.com>,
> > Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
> > > <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> > > >Heydt) wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com>
> > > >>wrote:
> > > >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
> > > >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroyin
> > > >>>g-bo
> > > >>>oks/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
> > > >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
> > > >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
> > > >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
> > > >>
> > > >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
> > > >
> > > >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
> > > >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
> > > >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
> > > >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
> > > >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
> > >
> > > Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
> > > (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
> > > all mixed up, IIRC.
> > >
> > > This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
> > > "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
> > I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
> > found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
> > progress is being made.
>
> Perhaps you're thinking of the Ancient Lives project, which isn't using
> computers for matching, but is crowdsourcing the transcription of
> Ptolomaic Greek texts from the the Oxyrhynchus middens.
> https://www.ancientlives.org/
>

That link isn't active at the moment, but I guess I was (and had
conflated it with what I quoted below and similar projects)

> There's also this project, using AI on cuniform texts.
> https://techxplore.com/news/2019-07-artificial-intelligence-gaps-ancient-texts
> .html
>
> ...and this, using 3D scanning to test fitting shattered fragments together.
> https://phys.org/news/2018-02-long-distance-reconstruction-cultural-artefact.h
> tml
>
<snip>

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> schrieb:
> In article <brlsigdfvmpi3g3p5e5mu9km6ffaql8l46@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com>
>> >>wrote:
>> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdnicoll@panix.com wrote:
>> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >>>>
>> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
>> >>>oks/
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >>
>> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >
>> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>>
>> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> all mixed up, IIRC.
>>
>> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>
> I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
> found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
> progress is being made.

People started doing that with shredded Stasi files. That does
not appear to have worked too well, the project is currently
stopped. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi-Schnipselmaschine .

pete...@gmail.com <petertrei@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:34:20 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 6:11:10 PM UTC-4, John Halpenny wrote:
>> >> On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 5:00:51 PM UTC-4, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>> >> > On 8/30/2021 3:37 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> >> > > On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 12:15:03 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
>> >> > >> to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
>> >> > > chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
>> >> > >
>> >> Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
>> >
>> >I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
>> >destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
>> Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
>
> If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
> fingers, holding down the pages.
>
> I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
> recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
> the book, is apparently quite difficult.

Finally, an argument for Asimov's robots - they could easily turn
the pages with their hands and read (or scan) them. IIRC, Lenny in
"Galley Slave" did just that.

On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 2:17:39 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-08-30 9:12 a.m., jdni...@panix.com wrote:
> > Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> > https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
> >
> I remember there was a short story based on naive extrapolation of the
> expansion of library book collections so that they threatened to fill
> the world.
Ms Fnd in a Lbry, perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Fnd_in_a_Lbry

On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 2:47:17 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >
> There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
> except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
> of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
> and venerated.
>
> I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
> of business between two characters that went something like this:
>
> I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
> that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
> floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
> of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
> matter what they say in public.
> --
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new books, right?

On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:01:11 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
> The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
> photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
> that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
> operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
> so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.

I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.

In article <a7305946-f8dd-445c-9402-42b3e1b4b27fn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Love <andrewelovejr@msn.com> wrote:
>On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 2:47:17 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
>> >
>> There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
>> except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
>> of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
>> and venerated.
>>
>> I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
>> of business between two characters that went something like this:
>>
>> I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
>> that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
>> floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
>> of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
>> matter what they say in public.
>> --
>This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of
>the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in
>new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new
>books, right?

As I said, I have basically no memory of the main plot, but yeah, it probably
would have been in Analog as I was a subscriber and that was most of the
short fiction I got after starting work.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:00:31 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
> >> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >> >Heydt) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
> >> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
> >> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
> >> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
> >> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
> >> >>
> >> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
> >> >
> >> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
> >> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
> >> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
> >> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
> >> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
> >> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
> >> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
> >> all mixed up, IIRC.
> >>
> >> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
> >> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
> >
> >The real life application of the method is to restore
> >destructively shredded documents.
> >
> >I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
> ><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
> >and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
> >and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
> >what I thought.
> >
> >Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
> >actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
> >not social history.
> That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)

Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.

Loved that movie.

William Hyde

In article <828e4e9d-11c8-4509-b866-9742baab3c64n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:00:31 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> >> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G
><no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
>> >> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>>>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >> >
>> >> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>> >> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> >> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> >> all mixed up, IIRC.
>> >>
>> >> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> >> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>> >
>> >The real life application of the method is to restore
>> >destructively shredded documents.
>> >
>> >I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
>>
>><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
>> >and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
>> >and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
>> >what I thought.
>> >
>> >Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
>> >actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
>> >not social history.
>> That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
>
>Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
>Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
>France.
>
>Loved that movie.

Are you talking about an actual movie? What's its name?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <828e4e9d-11c8-4509-b866-9742baab3c64n@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:00:31 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> >> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G
><no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
>> >> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>>>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >> >
>> >> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>> >> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> >> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> >> all mixed up, IIRC.
>> >>
>> >> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> >> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>> >
>> >The real life application of the method is to restore
>> >destructively shredded documents.
>> >
>> >I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
>>
>><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
>> >and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
>> >and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
>> >what I thought.
>> >
>> >Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
>> >actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
>> >not social history.
>> That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
>
>Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
>Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
>France.
>
>Loved that movie.

Are you talking about a real movie? Set in an alternate universe
but filmed in ours???

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 2/09/21 9:56 am, Andrew Love wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:01:11 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
>
>> The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
>> photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
>> that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
>> operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
>> so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
>
> I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.

A bit over my head without following your links. Confetti was probably
the wrong term as some of the pieces were quite large. The "Vinge
method" introduced in the library in Rainbows End was to be replicated
in libraries all over the world so there would be plenty of duplicates
to verify the original.

On 30/08/2021 16:12, jdnicoll@panix.com wrote:
> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>

King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle has a library as an important
plot element. After the breakup of the first interstellar empire,
second empire Imperial Navy ships eventually locate a lost colony world,
Prince Samuel's World, where a planetary war for dominance is under way.
Agents of the king discover that the Imperials will treat them as a
colony once the planet is united under one king unless they have
achieved spaceflight. Their technology is more or less at about
1900-1910AD levels, and they need something better. The Empire offers
them a trading expedition to nearby Makassar, which is still very
backwards and has nothing of interest, but they find out that there is
an old pre-collapse First Empire library there in a monastery, which
might contain data about developing space technologies. The library has
much information on rocket drives that they have no chance of developing
in time, but they find one obscure reference to a technique they could
use, and then...

--
Mike Dworetsky

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@btinternet.com> schrieb:

> King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle has a library as an important
> plot element. After the breakup of the first interstellar empire,
> second empire Imperial Navy ships eventually locate a lost colony world,
> Prince Samuel's World, where a planetary war for dominance is under way.
> Agents of the king discover that the Imperials will treat them as a
> colony once the planet is united under one king unless they have
> achieved spaceflight. Their technology is more or less at about
> 1900-1910AD levels, and they need something better. The Empire offers
> them a trading expedition to nearby Makassar, which is still very
> backwards and has nothing of interest, but they find out that there is
> an old pre-collapse First Empire library there in a monastery, which
> might contain data about developing space technologies. The library has
> much information on rocket drives that they have no chance of developing
> in time, but they find one obscure reference to a technique they could
> use, and then...

Cannae.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:00:31 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>> >> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> >> >Heydt) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
>> >> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>> >> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>> >> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>> >> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>> >> >
>> >> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>> >> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>> >> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>> >> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>> >> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>> >> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>> >> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>> >> all mixed up, IIRC.
>> >>
>> >> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>> >> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>> >
>> >The real life application of the method is to restore
>> >destructively shredded documents.
>> >
>> >I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
>> ><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
>> >and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
>> >and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
>> >what I thought.
>> >
>> >Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
>> >actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
>> >not social history.
>> That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
>
>Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
>Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
>France.
>
>Loved that movie.

As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?

I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
events.

Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:02:07 +1200, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 2/09/21 9:56 am, Andrew Love wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 2:01:11 AM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
>>
>>> The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
>>> photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
>>> that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
>>> operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
>>> so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
>>
>> I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.
>
>A bit over my head without following your links. Confetti was probably
>the wrong term as some of the pieces were quite large. The "Vinge
>method" introduced in the library in Rainbows End was to be replicated
>in libraries all over the world so there would be plenty of duplicates
>to verify the original.

Or plenty of choices as to which was, in fact, the original and which
a mish-mash of unrelated books that only /resembled/ the original.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

In article <XZWdneKZX7J7Fq38nZ2dnUU78aXNnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Michael Dworetsky <platinum198@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 30/08/2021 16:12, jdnicoll@panix.com wrote:
> > Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
> > https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-boo
> > ks/
> >
>
> King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle has a library as an important
> plot element. After the breakup of the first interstellar empire,
> second empire Imperial Navy ships eventually locate a lost colony world,
> Prince Samuel's World, where a planetary war for dominance is under way.
> Agents of the king discover that the Imperials will treat them as a
> colony once the planet is united under one king unless they have
> achieved spaceflight. Their technology is more or less at about
> 1900-1910AD levels, and they need something better. The Empire offers
> them a trading expedition to nearby Makassar, which is still very
> backwards and has nothing of interest, but they find out that there is
> an old pre-collapse First Empire library there in a monastery, which
> might contain data about developing space technologies. The library has
> much information on rocket drives that they have no chance of developing
> in time, but they find one obscure reference to a technique they could
> use, and then...
>

Which shouldn't work, since their propulsion system wouldn't have the
ISP to do the job (unless Prince Samuel's World is small enough,
anything close to Earth's mass is too big).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:05:38 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
><wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 12:00:31 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
>>> <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Tuesday, 31 August 2021 at 17:27:00 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> >> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:36:34 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>> >> >Heydt) wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>In article <sgjc46$qec$1...@dont-email.me>, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>On 31/08/21 3:12 am, jdni...@panix.com wrote:
>>> >> >>>> Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
>>> >> >>>procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
>>> >> >>>eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
>>> >> >>>every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
>>> >> >is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
>>> >> >off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
>>> >> >book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
>>> >> >it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
>>> >> Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
>>> >> (scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
>>> >> all mixed up, IIRC.
>>> >>
>>> >> This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
>>> >> "from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
>>> >
>>> >The real life application of the method is to restore
>>> >destructively shredded documents.
>>> >
>>> >I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
>>> ><https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
>>> >and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
>>> >and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
>>> >what I thought.
>>> >
>>> >Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
>>> >actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
>>> >not social history.
>>> That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
>>
>>Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
>>Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
>>France.
>>
>>Loved that movie.
>
>As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?
>
>I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
>supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
>actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
>events.
>
>Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
>they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
>in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?

They were Americans hiding in the Canadian embassy. The movie's title
is "Argo," and it's of interest to SF fans because the cover story the
rescuers use is that they're working on a movie, and as I recall the
prop production sketches used in the film were from a real-life
unsuccessful attempt to make a movie of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light.

(Or possibly those sketches were used in the actual rescue, not the
movie? I forget.)

The movie was based on actual events, and people I know in the
intelligence community who should know say that it wasn't terribly
inaccurate except in drastically downplaying how much the Canadians
did to assist in the escape.

--
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