On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
> > I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
> > two days ago:
> > https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
> >
> > I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to click/scroll.
> >
> > It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
> >
> > To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially through
> > the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
> > nods to emerging/micro-genres.
> >
> > On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
> > (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
> > Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
> > Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
> >
> > I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
> > giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
> > how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
> >
> > Full list below,
> > Tony
> > ———————————————————————————
> > Again: https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
> > The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
> > including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are either
> > collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
> >
> > Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
> > Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
> > Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
> > The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson (1886)
> > The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
> > Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
> > A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
> > We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
> > Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
> > Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
> > The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
> > The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
> > Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
> > 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
> > Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
> > Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
> > Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
> > A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
> > A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
> > Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
> > Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
> > Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
> > The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
> > Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
> > Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
> > The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
> > Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
> > Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
> > Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
> > Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
> > Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
> > The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
> > Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
> > Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
> > Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow (1989-1997)
> > Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
> > Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
> > Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
> > The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
> > Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
> > The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
> > Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
> > Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
> > Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
> > A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
> > Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
> > Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
> > Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
> > The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
> > Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
> > Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
> > The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
> > Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
> > Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
> >
> > From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
> > that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here..
>
> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>

Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.

Tony

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 8:32:53 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/15/2021 6:38 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <skcnib$6ir$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
> >>
> >> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
> >> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
> >
> > As several posters have already pointed out, the list contains
> > those works that the lister found influential to him.
> Then they should have put "to me" at the end of "The Most Influential
> Sci-Fi Books Of All Time".

Well, some of it can be quantified. For example, Edward Bellamy's
_Looking Backward: 2000–1887_ spawned a large "Nationalist" movement
with dozens of affiliated clubs, effectively a political party. It would be hard
to argue that the book wasn't influential. Or take _1984_, which introduced
a number of new terms and concepts.

It's harder to quantify the impact of the majority of the listed works. For
example, the article claims that Joan D. Vinge's _Psion_ "has inspired
generations of young sci-fi fans to delve deeper into the genre", but how
do we know that?

On 10/15/2021 8:16 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>>> two days ago:
>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>
>>> I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to click/scroll.
>>>
>>> It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
>>>
>>> To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially through
>>> the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>>> nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>>>
>>> On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>>> (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>>> Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>>> Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>>>
>>> I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>>> giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>>> how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>>>
>>> Full list below,
>>> Tony
>>> ———————————————————————————
>>> Again: https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>> The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>>> including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are either
>>> collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>>>
>>> Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>>> Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>>> Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>>> The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson (1886)
>>> The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>>> Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>>> A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>>> We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>>> Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>>> Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>>> The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>>> The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>>> Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>>> 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>>> Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>>> Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>>> Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>>> A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>>> A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>>> Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>>> Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>>> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>>> The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>>> Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>>> Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>>> The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>>> Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>>> Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>>> Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>>> Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>>> Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>>> The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>>> Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>>> Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>>> Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow (1989-1997)
>>> Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>>> Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>>> Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>>> The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>>> Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>>> The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>>> Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>>> Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>>> Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>>> A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>>> Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>>> Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>>> Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>>> The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>>> Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>>> Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>>> The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>>> Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>>> Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>>>
>>> From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>>> that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>>
>> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>>
>
> Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
> Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
>
> Tony

We get the term "missile porn" from Weber. We get ??? from Ringo, I
guess just a lot of freaking books.

Lynn

In article <skdbsq$mas$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 10/15/2021 8:16 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>
>> Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
>> Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.

>We get the term "missile porn" from Weber.

My son uses "spaceship porn." I imagine for Weber, it's the same
thing.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
I

In article <8f5fd043-baf7-4930-9bd8-956e80d9d32bn@googlegroups.com>,
Tony Nance <tonynance17@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 8:32:53 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/15/2021 6:38 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> > In article <skcnib$6ir$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> > Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>> >>
>> >> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>> >> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>> >
>> > As several posters have already pointed out, the list contains
>> > those works that the lister found influential to him.
>>
>> Then they should have put "to me" at the end of "The Most Influential
>> Sci-Fi Books Of All Time".
>>
>
>Not sure where this perspective is coming from. From the article
>"...
>The most influential sci-fi books of all time have shaped not just
>science fiction and its myriad sub-genres, but horror, fantasy, and
>manga, as well. Filmmakers have drawn inspiration for the stories
>between their covers, and real-world STEM developments have been
>made in their names. Without these books, for better or worse, our
>world would not be what it is today.
>..."
>
>Doesn't seem like the author's intention is a "to me" thing.

But he is stating his opinion.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On 10/15/2021 9:31 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <skdbsq$mas$1@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/15/2021 8:16 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>>
>>> Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
>>> Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
>
>> We get the term "missile porn" from Weber.
>
> My son uses "spaceship porn." I imagine for Weber, it's the same
> thing.

Yup. Both are essentially the same thing for Weber. After all, both
terms were invented for him as far as I know.

Lynn

On 16/10/2021 13:03, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/15/2021 8:16 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
>> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>>>> two days ago:
>>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>>
>>>> I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to
>>>> click/scroll.
>>>>
>>>> It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
>>>> through
>>>> the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>>>> nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>>>>
>>>> On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>>>> (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>>>> Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>>>> Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>>>>
>>>> I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>>>> giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>>>> how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>>>>
>>>> Full list below,
>>>> Tony
>>>> ———————————————————————————
>>>> Again:
>>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>> The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>>>> including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are
>>>> either
>>>> collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>>>>
>>>> Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>>>> Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>>>> Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>>>> The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson
>>>> (1886)
>>>> The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>>>> Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>>>> A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>>>> We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>>>> Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>>>> Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>>>> The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>>>> The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>>>> Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>>>> 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>>>> Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>>>> Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>>>> Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>>>> A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>>>> A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>>>> Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>>>> Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>>>> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>>>> The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>>>> Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>>>> Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>>>> The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>>>> Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>>>> Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>>>> Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>>>> Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>>>> Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>>>> The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>>>> Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>>>> Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>>>> Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow
>>>> (1989-1997)
>>>> Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>>>> Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>>>> Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>>>> The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>>>> Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>>>> The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>>>> Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>>>> Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>>>> Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>>>> A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>>>> Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>>>> Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>>>> Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
>>>> Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>>>> The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>>>> Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>>>> Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>>>> The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>>>> Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>>>> Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>>>>
>>>>  From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>>>> that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>>>
>>> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>>> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>>>
>>
>> Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
>> Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
>>
>> Tony
>
> We get the term "missile porn" from Weber.  We get ??? from Ringo, I
> guess just a lot of freaking books.
>
Ringo gives us less-than-one-dimensional characters - something I had
not previously thought possible.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

On 10/15/2021 10:06 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
> On 16/10/2021 13:03, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/15/2021 8:16 PM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>>>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>>>>> two days ago:
>>>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to
>>>>> click/scroll.
>>>>>
>>>>> It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or
>>>>> Stoker.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
>>>>> through
>>>>> the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>>>>> nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>>>>>
>>>>> On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>>>>> (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>>>>> Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>>>>> Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>>>>> giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>>>>> how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Full list below,
>>>>> Tony
>>>>> ———————————————————————————
>>>>> Again:
>>>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>>> The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>>>>> including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are
>>>>> either
>>>>> collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>>>>> Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>>>>> Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>>>>> The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis
>>>>> Stevenson (1886)
>>>>> The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>>>>> Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>>>>> A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>>>>> We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>>>>> Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>>>>> Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>>>>> The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>>>>> The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>>>>> Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>>>>> 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>>>>> Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>>>>> Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>>>>> Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>>>>> A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>>>>> A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>>>>> Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>>>>> Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>>>>> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>>>>> The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>>>>> Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>>>>> Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>>>>> The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>>>>> Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>>>>> Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>>>>> Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>>>>> Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>>>>> Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>>>>> The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>>>>> Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>>>>> Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>>>>> Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow
>>>>> (1989-1997)
>>>>> Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>>>>> Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>>>>> Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>>>>> The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>>>>> Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>>>>> The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>>>>> Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>>>>> Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>>>>> Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>>>>> A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>>>>> Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>>>>> Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>>>>> Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
>>>>> Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>>>>> The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>>>>> Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>>>>> Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>>>>> The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>>>>> Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>>>>> Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>>>>>
>>>>>  From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>>>>> that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>>>> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
>>> Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
>>>
>>> Tony
>>
>> We get the term "missile porn" from Weber.  We get ??? from Ringo, I
>> guess just a lot of freaking books.
>>
> Ringo gives us less-than-one-dimensional characters - something I had
> not previously thought possible.
>
>     Cheers,
>         Gary    B-)

Any book in particular or all 51 of his published books ?

BTW, I disagree. True, he is more about the story than the characters
but his characters are pretty good.

Lynn

In article <96aa9778-ca0f-49d0-b41f-22b198a9a747n@googlegroups.com>,
Tony Nance <tonynance17@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>> > I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>> > two days ago:
>> > https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>> >
>> > I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to
>click/scroll.
>> >
>> > It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
>> >
>> > To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
>through
>> > the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>> > nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>> >
>> > On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>> > (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>> > Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>> > Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>> >
>> > I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>> > giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>> > how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>> >
>> > Full list below,
>> > Tony
>> >
>———————————————————————————
>> > Again: https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>> > The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>> > including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years
>are either
>> > collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>> >
>> > Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>> > Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>> > Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>> > The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson (1886)
>> > The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>> > Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>> > A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>> > We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>> > Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>> > Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>> > The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>> > The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>> > Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>> > 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>> > Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>> > Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>> > Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>> > A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>> > A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>> > Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>> > Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>> > Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>> > The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>> > Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>> > Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>> > The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>> > Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>> > Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>> > Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>> > Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>> > Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>> > The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>> > Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>> > Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>> > Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow (1989-1997)
>> > Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>> > Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>> > Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>> > The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>> > Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>> > The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>> > Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>> > Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>> > Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>> > A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>> > Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>> > Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>> > Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
>Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>> > The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>> > Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>> > Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>> > The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>> > Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>> > Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>> >
>> > From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>> > that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>>
>> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>>
>
>Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
>Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
>

Weber is certainly influential. There are several female-Hornblower-in-space
that seem to have large parts of HH's DNA, and others that are cousins etc.

Ringo is a harder sell, I think. A better case could be made for Turtledove.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On 10/15/2021 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>> two days ago:
>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>
>> I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to click/scroll.
>>
>> It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
>>
>> To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
>> through
>> the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>> nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>>
>> On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>> (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>> Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>> Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>>
>> I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>> giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>> how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>>
>> Full list below,
>> Tony
>> ———————————————————————————
>> Again:
>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>> The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>> including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are
>> either
>> collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>>
>> Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>> Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>> Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>> The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson
>> (1886)
>> The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>> Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>> A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>> We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>> Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>> Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>> The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>> The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>> Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>> 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>> Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>> Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>> Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>> A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>> A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>> Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>> Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>> The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>> Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>> Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>> The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>> Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>> Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>> Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>> Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>> Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>> The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>> Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>> Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>> Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow (1989-1997)
>> Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>> Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>> Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>> The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>> Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>> The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>> Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>> Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>> Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>> A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>> Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>> Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>> Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
>> Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>> The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>> Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>> Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>> The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>> Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>> Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>>
>>  From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>> that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>
> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.

And the single Heinlein book mentioned is not one of his three best,
"The Star Beast", "Citizen Of The Galaxy", and "The Moon Is A Harsh
Mistress".

Lynn

On 2021-10-15 10:26 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/15/2021 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
>>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>>> two days ago:
>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>>
>>> I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to click/scroll.
>>>
>>> It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
>>>
>>> To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
>>> through
>>> the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
>>> nods to emerging/micro-genres.
>>>
>>> On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
>>> (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
>>> Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
>>> Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
>>>
>>> I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
>>> giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
>>> how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
>>>
>>> Full list below,
>>> Tony
>>> ———————————————————————————
>>> Again:
>>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
>>> The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
>>> including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years are
>>> either
>>> collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
>>>
>>> Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
>>> Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
>>> Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
>>> The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson
>>> (1886)
>>> The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
>>> Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
>>> A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
>>> We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
>>> Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
>>> Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
>>> The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
>>> The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
>>> Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
>>> 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
>>> Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
>>> Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
>>> Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
>>> A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
>>> A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
>>> Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
>>> Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
>>> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
>>> The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
>>> Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
>>> Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
>>> The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
>>> Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
>>> Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
>>> Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
>>> Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
>>> Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
>>> The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
>>> Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
>>> Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
>>> Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow
>>> (1989-1997)
>>> Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
>>> Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
>>> Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
>>> The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
>>> Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
>>> The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
>>> Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
>>> Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
>>> Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
>>> A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
>>> Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
>>> Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
>>> Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
>>> Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
>>> The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
>>> Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
>>> Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
>>> The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
>>> Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
>>> Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
>>>
>>>  From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
>>> that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
>>
>> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
>> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
>
> And the single Heinlein book mentioned is not one of his three best,
> "The Star Beast", "Citizen Of The Galaxy", and "The Moon Is A Harsh
> Mistress".
>
> Lynn
>

Starship Troopers does have the biggest modern day fandom though.

On 15 Oct 2021 00:32:59 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <48c754d4-2352-4e4d-85ad-67c039f23b2an@googlegroups.com>,
>Tony Nance <tonynance17@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 2:44:31 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In article <robertaw-A9C6B8...@news.individual.net>,
>>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>>> >In article <XnsADC35E8D79E...@85.12.62.245>,
>>> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Tony Nance <tonyn...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> >> news:e3068112-9ec1-4908...@googlegroups.com:
>>> >>
>>> >> > I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was
>>> >> > published two days ago:
>>> >> > https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-tim
>>> >> > e/
>>> >>
>>> >> Surprisingly, I've at least heard of most of them.
>>> >>
>>> >> > On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc
>>> >> > Smith (surely) and CL Moore (probably).
>>> >>
>>> >> Nothing by Murray Leinster, either, who is surely less obscure than
>>> >> some that did make the list.
>>> >
>>> >Well, it is a list of books and Leinster's chief claim to fame is for
>>> >various short stories. However, my research has uncovered a collection
>>> >_Sidewise in Time_ (Shasta, 1950) that not only includes the novella
>>> >"Sidewise in Time" but also the short story, "A Logic Named Joe" (plus 4
>>> >other titles that appear in more recent collections and anthologies),
>>> >see (<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?30401>).
>>> >
>>>
>>> I would say "Watchmen" is dubious on a list of "books".
>>>
>>
>>Because it's a graphic novel, or for another reason?
>>- Tony
>
>Yes, because of that. I'm not knocking the quality, and I love comics,
>but that's not where my mind goes when I hear "books".

For sure. If you give me somebody's opinion on most influential books
I expect to see a list of books. I would be equally surprised to find
Star Wars on such a list though if the list was 'most influential SF
publications' it would be a different list.

For what it's worth several items on that list were first published in
other formats - magazines (either as standalone stories or as
anthologies) and later put into books.

For instance I read Foundation, Foundatioon + Empire and Second
Foundation in book form even though I'm well aware they were first
published in magazines. Similarly MOST of the anthologized stories
were originally published elsewhere.

(And given how available most magazines are one year after original
publication the fact they were republished in anthologies was a good
thing else the stories wouldn't be available - Enders' Game is an
excellent example as are most of the early Miles Vorkosigan opus. For
instance I first read Lois McMaster Bujold's Falling Free - usually
included as a "Miles Book" though it wasn't - in its original
publication in Analog)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 08:34:08 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in news:813683df-47aa-4889-8d01-
>ca87f45a788an@googlegroups.com:
>
>> Then the list also has a bunch of other stuff on
>> it, about some of which I would have questions.
>> As it seems the site the list is on has selling books
>> as its purpose, though, I don't feel it necessary to
>> look too hard for answers.
>>
>I suspect it's really a list of books "influential to the author of
>this list."

Unless it's the result of a poll how can it be anything else?

I had plenty of novels I expected to see on that list but didn't.

For instance I would argue Heinlein's I Will Fear No Evil got a LOT of
people thinking on gender issues - and to me was a surprise when it
came out as I had thought of Heinlein as a remarkable misogynist (as
opposed to what I think he was now which is a reasonably mainstream
50s male on gender issues which is rather different from how these
things are viewed these days)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:26 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV
>> adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the
>> first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through
>> Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's
>> _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there he
>> didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if I
>> could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation.
>> Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he saw
>> all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.

To no one's great surprise some directors + screenwriters do a better
job of translating the author's mental images than others - and no
question cyberpunk was a relatively novel sub-genre when Blade Runner
was made.
>Well, novels that get turned into movies certainly influenced the
>people who made and watched the movie.

You mean as opposed to movie novelizations (my biggest non-favorite of
those I've read being the novelization of Star Wars) which are mostly
either two dimensional or move into the edges of fanfic when they go
beyond the movie.

Lynn McGuire wrote:
> Tony Nance wrote:
>> I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
>> two days ago:
>> https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/

<snip>

> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.

Popularity's probably positively correlated to influence. And
_Perry Rhodan_ is the most popular science fiction ever, with over two
billion novellas sold. Bubonicon's a takeoff on a PR character named
Gucky/Pucky. PR's matter transmitter's appeared years before Star Trek's
transporters. PR's spherical space ships debuted decades before Star
Wars' Death Star.
George Lucas supposedly said the American translation of PR was an
"inspiration, less strong than Flash Gordon, but it influenced the
design of many starships of Star Wars." Unfortunately the translated
Lucas quote seems absent from the two sources typically cited: [1][2]
The above situation brings to mind the time a friend of mine
mentioned how a set of data was treated as gospel in medical journals
for decades. Until someone actually replicated the original experiment
and ended up with different data.

It surprises me to learn Robin Cook belongs to a rarefied club of
authors with nearly 400 million books sold. Steven King's in the club,
as well is James Patterson (who's relatively unknown to me).
Robin Cook grinds an axe with his fiction. He writes to influence
others.
His faintly fictional first novel, _The Year of the Intern_, bombed.
So he upped his game. He brilliantly reverse engineered a formula out of
_Jaws_, _Love Story_, and other best sellers, then used it to create his
own best seller, his first of many: _Coma_.

What a shock: Robin Cook fuses stem cells with a suspenseful tale

Robin Cook's latest medical thriller may seem like yet
another example of the author's uncanny ability to anticipate
national controversy, in this case the uproar over federal
funding for embryonic stem cell research. After all, the
Harvard-trained medical doctor-turned-novelist has been
writing well ahead of the public-debate curve since his
breakout novel, Coma, nearly 25 years ago. ...
Cook admits the timing of Shock was fortuitous. "I
suppose you could say that it's the most like Coma in that
it deals with an issue that everybody seems to be concerned
about," he says. "I wrote this book to address the stem cell
issue, which the public really doesn't know anything about.
Besides entertaining readers, my main goal is to get people
interested in some of these issues, because it's the public
that ultimately really should decide which way we ought to
go in something as ethically questioning as stem cell
research." ...
And after 23 books, he has come up with a diagnosis to
explain why his medical thrillers remain so popular.
"The main reason is, we all realize we're at risk. We're
all going to be patients at some time," he says. "You can
write about great white sharks or haunted houses, and you
can say I'm not going in the ocean or I'm not going in
haunted houses, but you can't say you're not going to go in
a hospital." [3]

Formulas fascinate me. One of these days its my intention to reverse
engineer Levinson and Link's formula out of the first half dozen seasons
of _Colombo_.
The checklist enumerated in "Is it possible to write a best-selling
novel simply by following a formula?" [4] contains a lot of elements
found in the typical Cook:

1. The hero is an expert.
2. The villain is an expert.
3. You must watch all of the villainy over the shoulder of
the villain.
4. The hero has a team of experts in various fields behind
him, etc.
5. Two or more on the team must fall in love.
6. Two or more on the team must die.
7. The villain must turn his attentions from his initial goal
to the team.
8. The villain and the hero must live to do battle again in
the sequel.
9. All deaths must proceed from the individual to the group:
i.e., never say that the bomb exploded and 15,000 people
were killed. Start with "Jamie and Suzy were walking in
the park with their grandmother when the earth opened up."
10. If you get bogged down, just kill somebody.

Then there's Lester Dent's formula. [5]

"There are three rules for writing the novel. Unfortunately, no
one knows what they are." - W. Somerset Maugham

Note.

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=cKLlUnyG4IQC&pg=PA342
[2] https://www.handelsblatt.com/panorama/aus-aller-welt/science-fiction-serie-aus-rastatt-soll-verfilmt-werden-perry-rhodan-fordert-darth-vader-zum-duell-seite-2/2504942-2.html
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20071016063803/http://www.bookpage.com/0109bp/robin_cook.html
[4] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-write-a-bestseller-formula_b_1542587
[5] https://steegerbooks.com/lester-dent-and-the-master-fiction-plot/

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

On 10/15/2021 9:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/15/2021 10:06 PM, Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
>> Ringo gives us less-than-one-dimensional characters - something I had
>> not previously thought possible.
>>
> Any book in particular or all 51 of his published books ?
>
> BTW, I disagree.  True, he is more about the story than the characters
> but his characters are pretty good.
>
A lot of Ringo's stuff is of the "Humans, fuck YA!" school. Not
particularly new or ground breaking, just updated for the times. I say
that as someone who likes and buys Ringo's work.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:33:28 -0700 (PDT), Jack Bohn
<jack.bohn64@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

<snippo>

>> I suspect there's a certain amount of "books the author has
>> actually real" influence there, and whoever wrote the list just
>> hasn't read any Leinster.
>
>I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there he didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if I could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation. Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he saw all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.

I've read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and recently saw the
"Electric Dreams" version of "The Father Thing", and it's not clear
how they intersect.

One is set in a post-apocalyptic world where the main attraction to
moving off-planet to men who qualify is that they can ditch the
lead-lined underpants. Lots of residual radiation in the environment.
You do also have the investigation in the film, more or less.

The other is Yet Another Pod People story, told from the viewpoint of
a small boy who organizes a world-wide resistance (well, he's trying
to at the end of the episode, anyway).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:51:06 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:26 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV
>>> adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the
>>> first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through
>>> Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's
>>> _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there he
>>> didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if I
>>> could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation.
>>> Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he saw
>>> all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.
>
>To no one's great surprise some directors + screenwriters do a better
>job of translating the author's mental images than others - and no
>question cyberpunk was a relatively novel sub-genre when Blade Runner
>was made.
>
>>Well, novels that get turned into movies certainly influenced the
>>people who made and watched the movie.
>
>You mean as opposed to movie novelizations (my biggest non-favorite of
>those I've read being the novelization of Star Wars) which are mostly
>either two dimensional or move into the edges of fanfic when they go
>beyond the movie.

I don't generally buy movie novelizations, but I made a few exceptions
for James Bond films.

Any why not? The book /Thunderball/ has three author's names on it,
because (IIRC) it is basically a novelization of their joint
screenplay.

Anyway, there are two later examples:

/Goldeneye/ -- this follows the film pretty closely until we reach the
end, when things get ... vague. My guess: they hadn't figured out the
ending yet in any detail.

/Tomorrow Never Dies/ -- this one reads like the novel the film was
based on. No, really: not only do we get additional info about the bad
guy (that he is tormented by TMP the whole time), but we get the back
story on the Chinese agent and her investigation in China that leads
her to Germany.

So, in this case, they vary from barely adequate to really quite good.

IMHO, of course.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:3hpkmg1me4s705c3r72qvchtidqrdj01de@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 08:34:08 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>news:813683df-47aa-4889-8d01- ca87f45a788an@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Then the list also has a bunch of other stuff on
>>> it, about some of which I would have questions.
>>> As it seems the site the list is on has selling books
>>> as its purpose, though, I don't feel it necessary to
>>> look too hard for answers.
>>>
>>I suspect it's really a list of books "influential to the author
>>of this list."
>
> Unless it's the result of a poll how can it be anything else?

Some are better than most at objectivity. Some don't try.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <4qpkmglq24hrdpo5iknvi0br1uq6evrb92@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:26 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
><taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV
>>> adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the
>>> first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through
>>> Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's
>>> _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there he
>>> didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if I
>>> could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation.
>>> Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he saw
>>> all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.
>
>To no one's great surprise some directors + screenwriters do a better
>job of translating the author's mental images than others - and no
>question cyberpunk was a relatively novel sub-genre when Blade Runner
>was made.
>
>>Well, novels that get turned into movies certainly influenced the
>>people who made and watched the movie.
>
>You mean as opposed to movie novelizations (my biggest non-favorite of
>those I've read being the novelization of Star Wars) which are mostly
>either two dimensional or move into the edges of fanfic when they go
>beyond the movie.

Peter David had a memorable rant against that perception. It went something
like this:
Adapt a book into a movie? You can win an Oscar for that.
Adapt a movie onto Broadway? You can win a Tony for that.
Adapt a movie into a book? You're a hack.

Consider Vonda N. McIntyre's _Star Trek 3_ for instance: Medicore movie,
great book.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote in
news:4qpkmglq24hrdpo5iknvi0br1uq6evrb92@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:26 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
> Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV
>>> adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the
>>> first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through
>>> Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's
>>> _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there
>>> he didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if
>>> I could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation.
>>> Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he
>>> saw all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.
>
> To no one's great surprise some directors + screenwriters do a
> better job of translating the author's mental images than others
> - and no question cyberpunk was a relatively novel sub-genre
> when Blade Runner was made.
>
>>Well, novels that get turned into movies certainly influenced
>>the people who made and watched the movie.
>
> You mean as opposed to movie novelizations (my biggest
> non-favorite of those I've read being the novelization of Star
> Wars) which are mostly either two dimensional or move into the
> edges of fanfic when they go beyond the movie.

And are often written by authors with not much experience. Or talent.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 2021-10-16, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

> Popularity's probably positively correlated to influence. And
> _Perry Rhodan_ is the most popular science fiction ever, with over two
> billion novellas sold. Bubonicon's a takeoff on a PR character named
> Gucky/Pucky. PR's matter transmitter's appeared years before Star Trek's
> transporters. PR's spherical space ships debuted decades before Star
> Wars' Death Star.

I think PR's influence on Anglo-American SF is approximately zero.
And a good rule of thumb is that _nothing_ in PR is original. It's
all been seen before. (Which does not preclude independent
reinvention.)

_The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction_ traces matter transmission
to the 19th century.

I vaguely remember von Däniken explaining that a sphere is the
logical shape for a space-ship. That idea must have been around
for a long time. (And is completely irrelevant at the level of
magic technology in PR.)

The influence of PR on _German_ SF is another matter. That article
about the problems of translating PR into English...
https://nedludssocks.blogspot.com/2013/04/english-translations-of-perry-rhodan.html
.... made me wonder to which degree PR has actually shaped German
SF vocabulary.

There were of course some attempts in Germany to duplicate the
success of PR, with _Ren Dhark_ (1966-69) being the most successful
at 98 installments. And _Die Terranauten_ (1979-81, 99 installments
plus some paperback sequels) was explicitly created as an "anti-Perry
Rhodan story".

> George Lucas supposedly said the American translation of PR was an
> "inspiration, less strong than Flash Gordon, but it influenced the
> design of many starships of Star Wars." Unfortunately the translated
> Lucas quote seems absent from the two sources typically cited: [1][2]
> The above situation brings to mind the time a friend of mine
> mentioned how a set of data was treated as gospel in medical journals
> for decades.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle a number of years back when somebody
noticed that the length of the river Rhine as given in encyclopedias,
text books, etc. was simply wrong, and this was traced back to a
transposition of two digits (1230 > 1320 km) that steadily spread
through all those carefully fact-checked reputable sources *cough*.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 1:01:57 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <4qpkmglq24hrdpo5i...@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> >On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:25:26 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> ><taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> I suspect scales tipping for a well-known movie or TV
> >>> adaptation, hence Heinlein's last juvenile rather than the
> >>> first. (I would have gone with the book _The Past Through
> >>> Tomorrow_ for Future History.) I was about to dismiss Dick's
> >>> _Do Androids..._ for that, I mean, did he say anything there he
> >>> didn't say in "The Father-Thing"?, but I began to wonder if I
> >>> could dismiss a book's influence through its adaptation.
> >>> Specifically, Gibson said when he watched "Blade Runner" he saw
> >>> all the things he was trying to express in his cyberpunk.
> >
> >To no one's great surprise some directors + screenwriters do a better
> >job of translating the author's mental images than others - and no
> >question cyberpunk was a relatively novel sub-genre when Blade Runner
> >was made.
> >
> >>Well, novels that get turned into movies certainly influenced the
> >>people who made and watched the movie.
> >
> >You mean as opposed to movie novelizations (my biggest non-favorite of
> >those I've read being the novelization of Star Wars) which are mostly
> >either two dimensional or move into the edges of fanfic when they go
> >beyond the movie.
> Peter David had a memorable rant against that perception. It went something
> like this:
>
> Adapt a book into a movie? You can win an Oscar for that.
> Adapt a movie onto Broadway? You can win a Tony for that.
> Adapt a movie into a book? You're a hack.
>
> Consider Vonda N. McIntyre's _Star Trek 3_ for instance: Mediocre movie,
> great book.

And note that there are TWO Oscars for screenwriting: best original screenplay and best
adapted screenplay, so there is an award for adapted screenplay EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
I suppose the academy could vote "no award" but does that ever happen? An interesting
historical note: _A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum_ was partly based on
scenes from actual Roman comedies so for purposes of awards It was classified as
an adapted work.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In <slrnsmm63l.10nr.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> writes:

>There was a bit of a kerfuffle a number of years back when somebody
>noticed that the length of the river Rhine as given in encyclopedias,
>text books, etc. was simply wrong, and this was traced back to a
>transposition of two digits (1230 > 1320 km) that steadily spread
>through all those carefully fact-checked reputable sources *cough*.

This is related to the phenomenon of citogenesis, as explained by xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/978/

xkcd has something relevant to say about almost anything. :-)

- Steven
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Steven Winikoff |
Montreal, QC, Canada | For clarity in writing, be careful about
smw@smwonline.ca | word selection. For example, never
http://smwonline.ca | utilize 'utilize' when you can use 'use'.

On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 12:25:30 AM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <96aa9778-ca0f-49d0...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tony Nance <tonyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:16:15 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> On 10/14/2021 10:48 AM, Tony Nance wrote:
> >> > I just ran across this article about an hour ago - it was published
> >> > two days ago:
> >> > https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
> >> >
> >> > I’ve added the full list below for those who don’t want to
> >click/scroll.
> >> >
> >> > It’s strictly science fiction - so, for example, no Tolkien, or Stoker.
> >> >
> >> > To me, it’s a pretty well-considered and thorough list, especially
> >through
> >> > the 1970s. There seems to be some recency bias and/or maybe some
> >> > nods to emerging/micro-genres.
> >> >
> >> > On first blush, I’d say the only significant omissions are Doc Smith
> >> > (surely) and CL Moore (probably). Whether you’d cite Skylark or
> >> > Lensman, I think both were highly influential. Moore (with & without
> >> > Kuttner) had a wide range of influential stuff too, of course.
> >> >
> >> > I also appreciated the inclusion of the various collections & serials,
> >> > giving a nod both to how influential the authors/works were and to
> >> > how influential short/serialized fiction was and is.
> >> >
> >> > Full list below,
> >> > Tony
> >> >
> >———————————————————————————
> >> > Again: https://bookriot.com/the-most-influential-sci-fi-books-of-all-time/
> >> > The webpage has a 3-4 sentence description of each member of the list,
> >> > including why it’s on the list. The items with a range of years
> >are either
> >> > collections and/or the original material was originally serialized.
> >> >
> >> > Frankenstein - Mary Shelley (1818)
> >> > Blake, or The Huts of America - Martin R. Delany (1859 - 1862)
> >> > Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne (1869)
> >> > The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde - Robert Louis Stevenson (1886)
> >> > The Time Machine - H.G. Wells (1895)
> >> > Of One Blood, or the Hidden Self - Pauline Hopkins (1902-1903)
> >> > A Princess of Mars - Edgar Rice Burroughs (1912)
> >> > We - Yevgeny Zamyatin (1924)
> >> > Metropolis - Thea von Harbou (1925)
> >> > Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (1932)
> >> > The Collected Stories of Arthur C. Clarke (1937-1999)
> >> > The Complete Robot - Isaac Asimov (1939-1977)
> >> > Shadow Over Mars (aka Nemesis from Terra) - Leigh Brackett (1944)
> >> > 1984 - George Orwell (1949)
> >> > Astro Boy - Osamu Tezuka (1952-1968)
> >> > Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (1953)
> >> > Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein (1959)
> >> > A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller (1959)
> >> > A Wrinkle in Time - Madeleine L’Engle (1962)
> >> > Dune - Frank Herbert (1965)
> >> > Babel-17 - Samuel R. Delany (1966)
> >> > Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick (1968)
> >> > The Left Hand of Darkness - Ursula K. Le Guin (1969)
> >> > Slaughterhouse-Five - Kurt Vonnegut (1969)
> >> > Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang - Kate Wilhelm (1976)
> >> > The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (1979-1992)
> >> > Daughters of a Coral Dawn - Katherine V. Forrest (1984)
> >> > Psion - Joan D. Vinge (1982)
> >> > Vampire Hunter D - Hideyuki Kikuchi (1983 - present)
> >> > Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo (1982-1990)
> >> > Neuromancer - William Gibson (1984)
> >> > The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood (1985)
> >> > Watchmen - Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (1986-1987)
> >> > Lilith’s Brood - Octavia E. Butler (1987-1989)
> >> > Ghost in the Shell: Deluxe Complete Box Set - Masamune Shriow (1989-1997)
> >> > Jurassic Park - Michael Crichton (1990)
> >> > Ring - Koji Suzuki (1991)
> >> > Pretty Guardian Sailor moon - Naoko Takeuchi (1991-1997)
> >> > The Thrawn Trilogy - Timothy Zahn (1991-1993)
> >> > Ammonite - Nicola Griffith (1992)
> >> > The Children of Men - PD James (1992)
> >> > Snow Crash - Neal Stephenson (1992)
> >> > Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (1992)
> >> > Uzumaki - Junji Ito (1998-1999)
> >> > A Civil Campaign - Lois McMaster Bujold (1999)
> >> > Battle Royale - Koushun Takami (1999)
> >> > Midnight Robber - Nalo Hopkinson (2000)
> >> > Dark Matter: A Centruy of Speculative Fiction from the African
> >Diaspora - ed. by Sheree Renee Thomas (2000)
> >> > The Three-Body Problem - Cixin Liu (2008)
> >> > Leviathan Wakes - James S.A. Corey (2011)
> >> > Cinder - Marissa Meyer (2012)
> >> > The Imperial Radch Trilogy - Ann Leckie (2013-2016)
> >> > Station Eleven - Emily St. John Mandel (2014)
> >> > Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy - Jeff Vandermeer (2014)
> >> >
> >> > From here, the article’s author predicts some works from 2015 & later
> >> > that may well become influential. I didn’t add those works here.
> >>
> >> The fact that the list does not mention Perry Rhodan, David Weber, or
> >> John Ringo makes the list very suspect in my mind.
> >>
> >
> >Perry Rhodan's a good fit, I'd say. Are Weber and Ringo influential?
> >Sell well, sure - but influential isn't so clear to me.
> >
> Weber is certainly influential. There are several female-Hornblower-in-space
> that seem to have large parts of HH's DNA, and others that are cousins etc.
>

Cool - thanks.

> Ringo is a harder sell, I think. A better case could be made for Turtledove.
>

Turtledove! Yes - good call.
- Tony