On 2022-01-01 00:43:06 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
> On 12/30/21 9:25 PM, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
>>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and "ground
>>>>>> berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're a word
>>>>>> redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The use of "jelly"€ to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855 edition
>>>>> of Mrs. Acton’s "€œModern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>>
>>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>>
>>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>>> with roast lamb.
>>>
>>> Jelly is made from juice only.  Jam includes the fruit.   Both are put on
>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>
>>>   "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>    sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>
>>>    Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>    or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>    gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>
>>>   www.finecooking.com
>>
>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>> with.   :-\
>
> Eliza Acton wasn’t an American.

Not really relevant. Americans are the ones who continue to try to
enforce those now-incorrect definitions on the rest of the
*English*-speaking world ... they're "American English" (an oxy-moron,
it's either English or America, can't be both, just like
"African-American" nonsense).

On 1/01/22 4:36 am, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
>> But New Zealand growers developed a new copyrighted
>> strain of the Chinese gooseberry which was technically stolen by Chinese
>> growers. ( Good on them. Imagine the stupidity of someone owning the
>> copyright for the potato! Another example of Capitalism's desire for
>> control rather competition.)
>
> Yeah, imagine that:
>
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050081269A1/en
> https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/india-revokes-patent-pepsicos-lays-potatoes-2021-12-03/
>

Good grief. Why didn't they just start with water or oxygen?

* Your Name:

> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>> * Your Name:
>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:

>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>
>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>
>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>
>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>
>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>> with. :-\
>>
>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>> because you haven't suggested one.
>
> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
> with and without "bits" in it. :-p

All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
unnecessary words.

Happy 2022!

--
Ihre E-Mail-ID Haben Sie gewann £ 500.000,00 GBP in der
SAMSUNG UK Promotion Lotterie ziehen.
-- SPAMPOESIE

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Your Name:
>
>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>> * Your Name:
>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>
>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>
>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>
>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>> with. :-\
>>>
>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>
>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>
>All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>unnecessary words.

Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
the label.

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 12:26:53 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>> On 12/30/21 3:30 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-30 17:39:24 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>>>> In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
>>>> Paul S Person  <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
>>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny bit on
>>>>>> the end of a toothpick is far too much.
>>>>>
>>>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have exposed me
>>>>> to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard about:
>>>>> gooseberries and rhubarb.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
>>>>>
>>>>> But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
>>>>> taste a whole lot better to me.
>>>>
>>>> Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable.  I have
>>>> never encountered gooseberries.
>>>
>>> Usually a rhubarb pie or crumble has some other fruit (e.g. Apple)
>>> mixed in as well to cut done on the amount of sugar needed.
>>>
>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and "ground
>>> berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're a word
>>> redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>
>> The use of "jelly"€? to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855 edition
>> of Mrs. Acton’s "€œModern Cookery", published by Longman.
>
>"Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>
>"Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>with roast lamb.

Ah. Jell-O. Wobbly desert indeed!

And I suppose "preserves" is used for canned fruit.

>Gooseberries can actually be used for both a jam and a jelly.
>
>
>
>>> The "kiwifruit" (incorrectly called just "kiwi" in many other
>>> countries, which is really a flightless bird) is more correctly called
>>> the "Chinese gooseberry" because it's a native plant of China later
>>> stolen and renamed by New Zealand growers for copyright purposes ...
>>> and they now selfishly complain that China is stealing their market for
>>> the fruit!  :-\
>
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

* Your Name:

> On 2022-01-01 00:43:06 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>
>> Eliza Acton wasn’t an American.
>
> Not really relevant. Americans are the ones who continue to try to
> enforce those now-incorrect definitions on the rest of the
> *English*-speaking world ... they're "American English" (an oxy-moron,
> it's either English or America, can't be both, just like
> "African-American" nonsense).

OK, you're getting exceedingly silly, but I guess that shouldn't have
been a surprise given your silly handle.

Maybe "sensible Usenet contributor" is also an oxymoron.

--
Jib the boom! Poop the deck!
Rattle the hatch! Main the sail! Pepper the mints!
Anchors aweigh in the morn!
-- Muppet Show sea shanty (Ep.220)

* Your Name:

> On 2021-12-31 18:37:32 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 19:27:33 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-31 03:48:55 +0000, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan said:
>>>>> In article <sqltt2$nqh$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 31/12/21 3:43 pm, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I like kiwifruit, except for the hassle involved in peeling
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bifurcate it through its equatorial circumference and dig out the good
>>>>>> bits with a spoon.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the Golden Kiwi apparently can be eaten peel & all.
>>>>
>>>> You can actually eat the peel (wash it first!) of any kiwifruit, but
>>>> the "furry" texture is off-putting to most people.
>>>
>>> When I was growing up, my mother engaged in "home canning".
>>>
>>> For those unaware of this, it was a major enterprise, involving things
>>> to can, glass jars with vacuum-seal tops, lots of boiling water, and
>>> lots of of sugar. She did this in the fall; we ate the results into
>>> the next spring if not summer.
>>
>> It's not like home canning is extinct - I'm currently enjoying
>> a nice cherry-plum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prunus_cerasifera)
>> jam on my morning english muffin.
>>
>> Over a 100 jars of cherry-plum jam and grape jelly, all from the
>> back yard.
>>
>>> One of things she canned was called "Queen-of-All Preserves". I loved
>>> it. Well, given the amount of sugar, why not? This was a compendium of
>>> small bits and pieces of various fruits. I was appalled to learn that
>>> one of my favorite pieces was, in fact -- orange peel.
>>
>> Candied orange peel is delicious.
>>
>>> So I am well able to imagine that a gooseberry pie, if it had enough
>>> sugar in it when it was cooked, would be something I might like.
>>
>> I certainly enjoyed them growing up. Not a common fruit where
>> I live now.
>>
>> My grandmother made an excellent rhubarb crumble.
>
> Especially with custard. :-)
>
> There's a UK kids' animated series called "Roobarb and Custard" ...
> another in the massively long line of bad choices that "help" kids
> learn to spell, but "Rhubarb and Custard" is probably not
> copyrightable. :-\
> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071043/>

Sadly, Roobarb is a dog, not a kangaroo, which would've justified the
spelling.

--
Veronica: You named your puppy "The Missus"?
Cliff: Says the owner of a dog named "Pony".
-- Veronica Mars, S04E05

On 31 Dec 2021 17:31:25 GMT, ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

>In article <eseusg9v4kbv1bao0vu94g4dgf7uegpm41@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:39:24 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
>>>Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>>Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
>>>>>
>>>>>For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny bit on
>>>>>the end of a toothpick is far too much.
>>>>
>>>>De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>>
>>>>Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have exposed me
>>>>to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard about:
>>>>gooseberries and rhubarb.
>>>>
>>>>I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
>>>>
>>>>But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
>>>>taste a whole lot better to me.
>>>
>>>Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable. I have
>>>never encountered gooseberries.
>>
>>I knew gooseberry pie from a George Pal cartoon, "Jasper and the
>>Haunted House". Which isn't nearly as bad as might be expected from
>>its age, at least until you reach the end.
>
>The Jasper shorts were "Puppetoons" not cartoons. You couldn't
>show them today probably. I like the non-Jasper Puppetoon "Tulips
>Shall Grow":
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1QUUmShhMM

True, true -- "Puppetoons". Which are stop-motion, just like /Chicken
Run/.

There is a DVD /The Puppetoon Movie/ which includes 24 of them (12 in
the movie, twelve additional ones). How many you could show today I'm
not sure. Many of them were commercials. Jasper himself may be too
stereotypical, and that is a pity, for the end of "Jasper and the
Haunted House" is an outlier. "Jasper in a Jam" and "Jasper at the
Derby" are quite entertaining.

These older cartoons can be quite frustrating. They can go merrily
along, very enjoyable and then -- for no reason -- turn a bit nasty,
if only for a moment.

But that is what audiences wanted, back when they were made.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2022-01-01 17:49:52 +0000, J. Clarke said:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> * Your Name:
>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>
>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>
>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>
>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>> unnecessary words.
>
> Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
> able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
> the label.

I'm guessing they both come in a jar, which would make them both just "jam".

Real "jelly" comes in a box, either in a powdered or cube form. You
then put that into a bowl, add boiling water, and allow to set in the
fridge as a desert (it's never spreadable, so can't be used on toast,
cakes, etc.).

On 2022-01-01 16:34:02 +0000, Quinn C said:
> * Your Name:
>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>> * Your Name:
>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put
>>>>> on toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>
>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>
>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>> with. :-\
>>>
>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>
>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>
> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz.

A peach-plum is called a "Nectarine".

There's also a peach-plum-apricot which is called a "Peacotum".

> People make up too many unnecessary words.

I'm not making up any words. It's silly Americans who have two words
for the same jam product, plus an unnecessary third made-up word for an
existing jelly product.

They already have "chunky" and "smooth" versions of the disgusting
peanut butter, so they could easily simply have "chunky" (bits in) and
"smooth" (no bits) versions of jam to, but no, they obstinately insist
on making things more complicated for the *English* speaking world
simply because they want to. :-\

* Your Name:

> On 2022-01-01 16:34:02 +0000, Quinn C said:
>> * Your Name:
>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put
>>>>>> on toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>
>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>
>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>
>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz.
>
> A peach-plum is called a "Nectarine".
>
> There's also a peach-plum-apricot which is called a "Peacotum".
>
>> People make up too many unnecessary words.
>
> I'm not making up any words. It's silly Americans who have two words
> for the same jam product, plus an unnecessary third made-up word for an
> existing jelly product.

I was taking your lead regarding unnecessary distinctions and criticized
the person who invented the word for "peach" (thousands of years ago,
probably).

People make distinctions where they consider them important. Your
personal opinion doesn't matter.

That said, I don't remember seeing "grape jam" and will see, if I find
it in store, if it is indeed jelly or not. The one in this picture (of a
supposedly homemade product) clearly isn't.
<https://fccmansfield.org/img/47bce10c95f1bb4fd7a102fac2600e00.jpg>

> They already have "chunky" and "smooth" versions of the disgusting
> peanut butter, so they could easily simply have "chunky" (bits in) and
> "smooth" (no bits) versions of jam to, but no, they obstinately insist
> on making things more complicated for the *English* speaking world
> simply because they want to. :-\

That's not sufficient; non-jelly jam already can be smooth and chunky
(made from fine puree or chunky puree). Jelly would have to be called
extra-smooth or something, but even that seems misleading. "Clear" might
work.

--
Gehören Sie auch zu billigeren Geschenk für Ihre Freunde wollen
-- SPAMPOESIE

On 12/31/21 9:28 PM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2022-01-01 00:40:13 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>> On 12/30/21 6:26 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>> On 12/30/21 3:30 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-12-30 17:39:24 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>>>>>> In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person  <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny
>>>>>>>> bit on
>>>>>>>> the end of a toothpick is far too much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have
>>>>>>> exposed me
>>>>>>> to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard about:
>>>>>>> gooseberries and rhubarb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
>>>>>>> taste a whole lot better to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable.  I have
>>>>>> never encountered gooseberries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Usually a rhubarb pie or crumble has some other fruit (e.g. Apple)
>>>>> mixed in as well to cut done on the amount of sugar needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and
>>>>> "ground berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're
>>>>> a word redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>
>>>> The use of "jelly" to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855
>>>> edition of Mrs. Acton's "Modern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>
>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>
>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>> with roast lamb.
>>>
>>> Gooseberries can actually be used for both a jam and a jelly.
>>
>> "You're just contradicting everything I say! That's not an argument!"
>
> I'm simply telling you the *facts* of the *English* language and the
> Americanisations that are incorrect in the *English* language.
>

Still nothing but evidence-free contradiction, backed by what might,
perhaps, be called a sort of “vocabular creationism”.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

On 12/31/21 9:32 PM, Your Name wrote:
> On 2022-01-01 00:43:06 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>> On 12/30/21 9:25 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
>>>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and
>>>>>>> "ground
>>>>>>> berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're a word
>>>>>>> redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The use of "jelly"€ to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855 edition
>>>>>> of Mrs. Acton’s "€œModern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>>>> with roast lamb.
>>>>
>>>> Jelly is made from juice only.  Jam includes the fruit.   Both are
>>>> put on
>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>
>>>>   "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>    sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>
>>>>    Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>    or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>    gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>
>>>>   www.finecooking.com
>>>
>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>> with.   :-\
>>
>> Eliza Acton wasn’t an American.
>
> Not really relevant. Americans are the ones who continue to try to
> enforce those now-incorrect definitions on the rest of the
> *English*-speaking world ... they're "American English" (an oxy-moron,
> it's either English or America, can't be both, just like
> "African-American" nonsense).

And yet the OED sees fit to tag “jelly” in the sense of fruit juice
gelled with some agent other than gelatine as “later”, not “US”. It’s
almost as though specialist professional scholars disagree with you.

Speaking of the OED (or the NED, as it was then), when the first edition
was finished in book form, presentation copies were formally presented
to the White House as well as to Buckingham Palace.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

On 1/1/22 12:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Your Name:
>>
>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>
>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>
>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>
>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>
>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>> unnecessary words.
>
> Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
> able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
> the label.

In US use, the distinction is well defined. Grape jelly is absolutely
clear, and is gelled with pectin, and is meant to be used like jam
(chiefly, spread on bread). If gelatin is used, and it is served at the
table as a cold dessert, it is “grape gelatin", or by abuse of a trade
name, “grape Jell-O. "Grape jam" has solid bits in it, but is otherwise
much the same as “grape jelly”.

In the 50s, there was also “grapelade”.

--
John W. Kennedy
Algernon Burbage, Lord Roderick, Father Martin, Bishop Baldwin,
King Pellinore, Captain Bailey, Merlin -- A Kingdom for a Stage!

In article <sqqee8$1sjm$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>On 2022-01-01 16:34:02 +0000, Quinn C said:
>> * Your Name:
>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put
>>>>>> on toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>> or pur�ed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>
>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>
>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>
>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz.
>
>A peach-plum is called a "Nectarine".
>
>There's also a peach-plum-apricot which is called a "Peacotum".
>
>
>
>> People make up too many unnecessary words.
>
>I'm not making up any words. It's silly Americans who have two words
>for the same jam product, plus an unnecessary third made-up word for an
>existing jelly product.
>
>They already have "chunky" and "smooth" versions of the disgusting
>peanut butter, so they could easily simply have "chunky" (bits in) and
>"smooth" (no bits) versions of jam to, but no, they obstinately insist
>on making things more complicated for the *English* speaking world
>simply because they want to. :-\
>

"The rose is a rose,
And was always a rose.
But now the theory goes
That the apple's a rose,
And the pear is, and so's
The plum, I suppose.
The dear only knows
What will next prove a rose.
You, of course, are a rose
But were always a rose."

--Robert Frost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosaceae

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <04adnQjzcu9dl0z8nZ2dnUU7-RnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>In the 50s, there was also “grapelade”.

In my distant youth, it was Grapette.

Bright purple, sweet as hell, and (I'm sure) totally synthetic.
The only place I could find it was at a stand on a beach along
the Russian River, halfway between Rio Nido and Guerneville.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 21:15:28 -0500, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/1/22 12:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>> * Your Name:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>
>>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>>
>>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>>
>>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>>
>>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>>> unnecessary words.
>>
>> Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
>> able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
>> the label.
>
>In US use, the distinction is well defined. Grape jelly is absolutely
>clear, and is gelled with pectin, and is meant to be used like jam
>(chiefly, spread on bread). If gelatin is used, and it is served at the
>table as a cold dessert, it is “grape gelatin", or by abuse of a trade
>name, “grape Jell-O. "Grape jam" has solid bits in it, but is otherwise
>much the same as “grape jelly”.

I defy you to find any solid bits in Welch's Grape Jam.
>
>In the 50s, there was also “grapelade”.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 03:00:29 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <04adnQjzcu9dl0z8nZ2dnUU7-RnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>John W Kennedy <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>In the 50s, there was also “grapelade”.
>
>In my distant youth, it was Grapette.
>
>Bright purple, sweet as hell, and (I'm sure) totally synthetic.
>The only place I could find it was at a stand on a beach along
>the Russian River, halfway between Rio Nido and Guerneville.

It was commonplace in the South in the late '50s and early '60s. I
rather liked it.

On 2022-01-02 01:47:25 +0000, John W Kennedy said:

> On 12/31/21 9:32 PM, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2022-01-01 00:43:06 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>> On 12/30/21 9:25 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and "ground
>>>>>>>> berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're a word
>>>>>>>> redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The use of "jelly"€ to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855 edition
>>>>>>> of Mrs. Acton’s "€œModern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>>>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>>>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>>>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>>>>> with roast lamb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only.  Jam includes the fruit.   Both are put on
>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>    sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>
>>>>>    Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>    or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>    gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>
>>>>>   www.finecooking.com
>>>>
>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>> with.   :-\
>>>
>>> Eliza Acton wasn’t an American.
>>
>> Not really relevant. Americans are the ones who continue to try to
>> enforce those now-incorrect definitions on the rest of the
>> *English*-speaking world ... they're "American English" (an oxy-moron,
>> it's either English or America, can't be both, just like
>> "African-American" nonsense).
>
> And yet the OED sees fit to tag “jelly” in the sense of fruit juice
> gelled with some agent other than gelatine as “later”, not “US”. It’s
> almost as though specialist professional scholars disagree with you.
>
> Speaking of the OED (or the NED, as it was then), when the first
> edition was finished in book form, presentation copies were formally
> presented to the White House as well as to Buckingham Palace.

Whatever Americanised stupidty you want to delude yourself with. The
actual facts of the *English* language remain as I said in the first
place.

Game over

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 09:37:55 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-01-01 17:49:52 +0000, J. Clarke said:
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>> * Your Name:
>>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>>
>>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>>
>>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>>
>>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>>> unnecessary words.
>>
>> Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
>> able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
>> the label.
>
>I'm guessing they both come in a jar, which would make them both just "jam".
>
>Real "jelly" comes in a box, either in a powdered or cube form. You
>then put that into a bowl, add boiling water, and allow to set in the
>fridge as a desert (it's never spreadable, so can't be used on toast,
>cakes, etc.).

Definitely Jell-O, then.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 01 Jan 2022 23:00:20 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 21:15:28 -0500, John W Kennedy
><john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 1/1/22 12:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:34:02 -0500, Quinn C
>>> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-12-31 16:20:25 +0000, Quinn C said:
>>>>>> * Your Name:
>>>>>>> On 2021-12-31 01:54:22 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jelly is made from juice only. Jam includes the fruit. Both are put on
>>>>>>>> toast, bread, muffins or between layers of sponge cake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Jelly is a clear fruit spread made from cooked fruit juice and
>>>>>>>> sugar, and possibly pectin, which helps it gel and thicken. ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jam is a thick spread made from fruit juice, chopped, crushed,
>>>>>>>> or puréed fruit, and sugar. Pectin may also be added to help it
>>>>>>>> gel, but jams are usually looser than jellies."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> www.finecooking.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those are the silly American re-definitions. The actual *English*
>>>>>>> definitions are what I gave ... which is the entire point I started
>>>>>>> with. :-\
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you're fine with jelly by the above definition not having any name?
>>>>>> because you haven't suggested one.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're the same thing, so that would still be "jam" ... simply jam
>>>>> with and without "bits" in it. :-p
>>>>
>>>> All right, and a peach is just a plum with fuzz. People make up too many
>>>> unnecessary words.
>>>
>>> Supermarkets sell "grape jelly" and "grape jam". I have never been
>>> able to identify any difference between them other than the word on
>>> the label.
>>
>>In US use, the distinction is well defined. Grape jelly is absolutely
>>clear, and is gelled with pectin, and is meant to be used like jam
>>(chiefly, spread on bread). If gelatin is used, and it is served at the
>>table as a cold dessert, it is “grape gelatin", or by abuse of a trade
>>name, “grape Jell-O. "Grape jam" has solid bits in it, but is otherwise
>>much the same as “grape jelly”.
>
>I defy you to find any solid bits in Welch's Grape Jam.

It may have depended on the time of year.

One reason I am using Kroger's Strawberry Preserves instead of
Smucker's is because Kroger's /always/ has bits of Strawberry in it,
sometimes more, sometimes less. The Smucker's went from sometimes less
to sometimes none during the year.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:40:02 -0500, John W Kennedy
<john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/31/21 9:28 PM, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2022-01-01 00:40:13 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>> On 12/30/21 6:26 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>> On 12/30/21 3:30 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-30 17:39:24 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>>>>>>> In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person  <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny
>>>>>>>>> bit on
>>>>>>>>> the end of a toothpick is far too much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have
>>>>>>>> exposed me
>>>>>>>> to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard about:
>>>>>>>> gooseberries and rhubarb.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
>>>>>>>> taste a whole lot better to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable.  I have
>>>>>>> never encountered gooseberries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usually a rhubarb pie or crumble has some other fruit (e.g. Apple)
>>>>>> mixed in as well to cut done on the amount of sugar needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and
>>>>>> "ground berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're
>>>>>> a word redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The use of "jelly"? to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855
>>>>> edition of Mrs. Acton's "Modern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>>
>>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>>
>>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>>> with roast lamb.
>>>>
>>>> Gooseberries can actually be used for both a jam and a jelly.
>>>
>>> "You're just contradicting everything I say! That's not an argument!"
>>
>> I'm simply telling you the *facts* of the *English* language and the
>> Americanisations that are incorrect in the *English* language.
>>
>
>Still nothing but evidence-free contradiction, backed by what might,
>perhaps, be called a sort of “vocabular creationism”.

Yes, he does seem awful insistent on defining /British English/ as the
One True English, doesn't he.

Still, I suppose this is a useful illustration of the "two great
peoples divided by a common language" saying.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 1/2/2022 12:41 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:40:02 -0500, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/31/21 9:28 PM, Your Name wrote:

>>> I'm simply telling you the *facts* of the *English* language and
>>> the Americanisations that are incorrect in the *English*
>>> language.
>>>
>>
>> Still nothing but evidence-free contradiction, backed by what
>> might, perhaps, be called a sort of “vocabular creationism”.
>
> Yes, he does seem awful insistent on defining /British English/ as
> the One True English, doesn't he.

Likely pro-Brexit as well.

--
Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
As for behavior, I have shocking news:
Physicists can be arrogant. - Mike Tamor

In article <2ro3tgtatsau35heou1s4lk1giol1sm4b0@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:40:02 -0500, John W Kennedy
> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 12/31/21 9:28 PM, Your Name wrote:
> >> On 2022-01-01 00:40:13 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
> >>> On 12/30/21 6:26 PM, Your Name wrote:
> >>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
> >>>>> On 12/30/21 3:30 PM, Your Name wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2021-12-30 17:39:24 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt said:
> >>>>>>> In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
> >>>>>>> Paul S Person  <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> No.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Lynn
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny
> >>>>>>>>> bit on
> >>>>>>>>> the end of a toothpick is far too much.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have
> >>>>>>>> exposed me
> >>>>>>>> to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard about:
> >>>>>>>> gooseberries and rhubarb.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
> >>>>>>>> taste a whole lot better to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable.  I have
> >>>>>>> never encountered gooseberries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Usually a rhubarb pie or crumble has some other fruit (e.g. Apple)
> >>>>>> mixed in as well to cut done on the amount of sugar needed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and
> >>>>>> "ground berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're
> >>>>>> a word redefining� American), but can be used in pies too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The use of "jelly"? to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
> >>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855
> >>>>> edition of Mrs. Acton's "Modern Cookery", published by Longman.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
> >>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
> >>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
> >>>>
> >>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
> >>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
> >>>> with roast lamb.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gooseberries can actually be used for both a jam and a jelly.
> >>>
> >>> "You're just contradicting everything I say! That's not an argument!"
> >>
> >> I'm simply telling you the *facts* of the *English* language and the
> >> Americanisations that are incorrect in the *English* language.
> >>
> >
> >Still nothing but evidence-free contradiction, backed by what might,
> >perhaps, be called a sort of �vocabular creationism�.
>
> Yes, he does seem awful insistent on defining /British English/ as the
> One True English, doesn't he.
>

I wonder if there is regional variation in England on the meanings of
jam and jelly? We had to pick up our usage somewhere after all.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 2022-01-03 05:43:54 +0000, Robert Woodward said:
> In article <2ro3tgtatsau35heou1s4lk1giol1sm4b0@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:40:02 -0500, John W Kennedy
>> <john.w.kennedy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/31/21 9:28 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>> On 2022-01-01 00:40:13 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>> On 12/30/21 6:26 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-12-30 22:12:58 +0000, John W Kennedy said:
>>>>>>> On 12/30/21 3:30 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-30 17:39:24 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>>>>>>>>> In article <u4qrsg1ofs6t5304674djqlt5m2b5d144e@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>>> Paul S Person  <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:32:35 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-12-29 18:50:58 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Over The Hedge: Can One Ever Eat Too Much Pie ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2021/12/29
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Greatly depends on what's in the pie.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, 'pumpkin pie' is simply digusting so even a tiny bit on
>>>>>>>>>>> the end of a toothpick is far too much.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> De gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Surprises in Amazon's efforts to provide canned fruit have
>>>>>>>>>> exposed me to two fruits I never had when growing up but have heard
>>>>>>>>>> about: gooseberries and rhubarb.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't like them; I suspect they are an acquired taste.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But bake them into a pie with enough sugar and I suspect they would
>>>>>>>>>> taste a whole lot better to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rhubarb pie (with, yes, sufficient sugar) is delectable.  I have never
>>>>>>>>> encountered gooseberries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Usually a rhubarb pie or crumble has some other fruit (e.g. Apple)
>>>>>>>> mixed in as well to cut done on the amount of sugar needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The gooseberry has other names too, including "goldenberry" and
>>>>>>>> "ground berry". Mostly they are used for jam (or "jelly" if you're
>>>>>>>> a word redefining  American), but can be used in pies too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The use of "jelly"? to designate a clarified fruit-based production,
>>>>>>> with no use of animal gelatin, is at least as old as the 1855
>>>>>>> edition of Mrs. Acton's "Modern Cookery", published by Longman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jam" is a spreadable topping you put on toast or between layers of
>>>>>> sponge cake. (I would say used on scones, but then that opens up yet
>>>>>> another rabbit hole of misued American definitions).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Jelly" is a wobbly desert used in trifles, etc., although there are
>>>>>> also things like mint "jelly" (as oposed to "mint sauce") which goes
>>>>>> with roast lamb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gooseberries can actually be used for both a jam and a jelly.
>>>>>
>>>>> "You're just contradicting everything I say! That's not an argument!"
>>>>
>>>> I'm simply telling you the *facts* of the *English* language and the
>>>> Americanisations that are incorrect in the *English* language.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Still nothing but evidence-free contradiction, backed by what might,
>>> perhaps, be called a sort of “vocabular creationism”.
>>
>> Yes, he does seem awful insistent on defining /British English/ as the
>> One True English, doesn't he.
>
> I wonder if there is regional variation in England on the meanings of
> jam and jelly? We had to pick up our usage somewhere after all.

Most silly Americanisations are due to either:

A. Making up words and definitions to suit themselves, and then
trying to enforce that on everyone else,
(same as Microsoft deciding to make up HTML "standards" to
suit themselves and then trying to force everyone else to
use them),

or

B. Continuing to stubbornly use ye olde English definitions
that have long since been out-dated in real *English*.

Either way, the Americanisations are simply incorrect.